2016 Presidential Horse Race

[kmoose]

You serious Clark? Lol. Not even going to bother with this one.

Yes. I'm serious. The Republican platform has no problem with spending public money on infrastructure, so I'm not sure what you are talking about?

 

[Cackalacky]

I understand the percentages. My point is that there is a much larger number of Obama voters who stayed home this time than Obama voters who became Trump voters.

Like I said I am sill wrapping my head around some of it.

 

[wizards8507]

Bridges should pull themselves up by their own bootstraps. More or less.

You actually believe that, don't you?

 

[Bluto]

First off, I didn't say drug USE was different. I said participation in the drug TRADE might be different. Black and Hispanic gangs have always controlled the crack and meth trades. Liberals bitched about addicts being put in prison, so the laws were changed to hit the dealers much harder. Now liberals want to bitch about how unfair drug laws that THEY largely brought about are.

The Hells Angles/bikers and Aryan organizations controlled the meth trade in Cali for quite a long time because it was/is the drug of choice for rural and suburban whites.

Weed production in Cali is far and away done by mostly by white people.

 

[Bluto]

You actually believe that, don't you?

More or less. Talk to an engineer and get back to me.

 

[kmoose]

The Hells Angles/bikers and Aryan organizations controlled the meth trade in Cali for quite a long time because it was/is the drug of choice for rural and suburban whites.

Weed production in Cali is far and away done by mostly by white people.

Weed was not killing inner cities in the 80s. Crack was. In the 90s, it was meth. In the 00s, it is heroin.

Hells Angels weren't standing on street corners selling hits of meth to people. THAT is the kind of drug distribution that people were clamoring for help with, in the 80s and 90s. And the Black and Hispanic gangs in not only Cali, but in places like Chicago, NY, Atlanta, Miami, Cleveland, Dallas, Houston, and Denver were making fortunes off of it.

And are you honestly trying to sell me on the idea that Law Enforcemtn went easy on white Hells Angels guys while overly punishing Blacks and Hispanics?

 

[Bluto]

Weed was not killing inner cities in the 80s. Crack was. In the 90s, it was meth. In the 00s, it is heroin.

Hells Angels weren't standing on street corners selling hits of meth to people. THAT is the kind of drug distribution that people were clamoring for help with, in the 80s and 90s. And the Black and Hispanic gangs in not only Cali, but in places like Chicago, NY, Atlanta, Miami, Cleveland, Dallas, Houston, and Denver were making fortunes off of it.

And are you honestly trying to sell me on the idea that Law Enforcemtn went easy on white Hells Angels guys while overly punishing Blacks and Hispanics?

Nope. Just pointing out some of your inaccuracies. Saying "weed" wasn't "killing people" is inaccurate as well. When weed was selling for $5-$8 thousand a pound all kinds of people were getting killed over it.

Meth has never been an inner city drug and it is almost exclusively produced and consumed by suburban and rural whites. The bikers had that on lockdown and one of the major distribution hubs was a truck stop off Hwy 58 in Bakersfield.

In the 00's it's been legal opioids distributed by actual MD's that opened the door to heroin which has in turn devastated poor white communities in the Midwest and North West.

 

[wizards8507]

Here's the SICK truth about the wave of Trump-inspired 'hate crimes'... - Allen B. West - AllenBWest.com

I seem to remember someone calling BS on this two days ago.

Muslim Student Charged for Trump Hate Crime Hoax

For those who don't bother to click the links, police departments all over the place are debunking the fake hate crimes that Shaun King and his ilk have been spreading. Truly despicable.

 

[Woneone]

Nope. Just pointing out some of your inaccuracies. Saying "weed" wasn't "killing people" is inaccurate as well. When weed was selling for $5-$8 thousand a pound all kinds of people were getting killed over it.

Meth has never been an inner city drug and it is almost exclusively produced and consumed by suburban and rural whites. The bikers had that on lockdown and one of the major distribution hubs was a truck stop off Hwy 58 in Bakersfield.

In the 00's it's been legal opioids distributed by actual MD's that opened the door to heroin that have devestated poor white communities in the Midwest and North West.

When was weed selling for 5-8 grand a pound?

 

[Whiskeyjack]

If recent comments that I have seen from The Heritsg Foundation et al are any indication I don't think they have. Being a civil engineer I know we need it absolutely and I would love for them to do it but this is not something conservatives in my state would ever agree to. It would be very funny to me if they did adopt it as it would appear, from my very cynical view point, a huge stimulus plan is acceptable as long as its not a Dem plan.

But here's the thing. Unlike an average Republican, Trump owes these people nothing. So he could easily tell them to take this reheated Reaganism and shove it.

Imagine a GOP that remained socially conservative, but dropped the libertarian economics in favor of job creating infrastructure projects and single payor healthcare. They could put the Democrats away for a generation...

You're being disingenuous. Paul Ryan's Social Security privatization would not be any risk for the lower classes whatsoever since it's OPTIONAL privatization. Any person who's happy with the current shit system will be more than welcome to continue in it. Anyone with half a brain will CHOOSE to invest their own money.

You know better.

Because that's what this moment demands, right? HSAs and minor tweaks to SS. That's the sort of inspired policy reform that people gambled on Trump for...

I don't think that's right. Trump didn't convert much of anyone. Just loads of Obama voters stayed home, giving Trump higher percentages.

This is the Never Trump equivalent of Progressives writing off Trump's election as the product of nothing but racism and misogyny. A pat narrative that conveniently absolves your side of any blame.

 

[Bluto]

When was weed selling for 5-8 grand a pound?

Stuff like good, indoor OG Kush back in the mid 90's to early-mid 2000's.

 

[Cackalacky]

If someone could embed this I would appreciate it. It's a great video.
Jonathan Pie on the Election

 

[wizards8507]

This is the Never Trump equivalent of Progressives writing off Trump's election as the product of nothing but racism and misogyny. A pat narrative that conveniently absolves your side of any blame.

That's a false dichotomy. I was calling out the GOP establishment when I was in high school, a decade before Donald Trump decided to run for president. My being anti-Trump does not make me a Boehner-McConnell Republican.

 

[Cackalacky]

But here's the thing. Unlike an average Republican, Trump owes these people nothing. So he could easily tell them to take this reheated Reaganism and shove it.

Imagine a GOP that remained socially conservative, but dropped the libertarian economics in favor of job creating infrastructure projects and single payor healthcare. They could put the Democrats away

Absolutely. I think I have made the argument before that it's a much more morally correct position to take care of the least of our brothers than allow them to muddle in obscurity. Everyone has a purpose and talent and we all can contribute.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

That's a false dichotomy. I was calling out the GOP establishment when I was in high school, a decade before Donald Trump decided to run for president. My being anti-Trump does not make me a Boehner-McConnell Republican.

But you are a Romney/ Ryan Republican. Those guys, the intellectual heirs of Art Laffer, have had a death grip on Republican economic policy since Reagan. Trump's election is at least as much a repudiation of them as it is of Boehner and McConnell. Arguably more so, since they've done more than anyone to push free trade and globalism at the expense of working class Americans.

 

[wizards8507]

But you are a Romney/ Ryan Republican. Those guys, the intellectual heirs of Art Laffer, have had a death grip on Republican economic policy since Reagan. Trump's election is at least as much a repudiation of them as it is of Boehner and McConnell. Arguably more so, since they've done more than anyone to push free trade and globalism at the expense of working class Americans.

Neither free trade nor globalization have come at the expense of "working class Americans" if you know enough to look beyond the first-order effects of outsourcing, which, granted, working class Americans don't. If implemented, Trump's protectionist trade policies will have absolutely disastrous effects on they people they're supposed to help. This will come at dire political cost to the GOP.

*Note I said globalization, not globalism. There's a difference that I'm too tired to argue right now.

 

[NDbrbkny]

to the older members, has there ever been this visceral of a reaction to the election like this
and to everyone could trump be the first president to walk into the door unpopular?

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Neither free trade nor globalization have come at the expense of "working class Americans" if you know enough to look beyond the first-order effects of outsourcing, which, granted, working class Americans don't. If implemented, Trump's protectionist trade policies will have absolutely disastrous effects on they people they're supposed to help. This will come at dire political cost to the GOP.

*Note I said globalization, not globalism. There's a difference that I'm too tired to argue right now.

I assume you'd argue that globalism reflects the "values" of the Davos set, and is therefore bad. While globalization is the natural product of Adam Smith's invisible hand, and is therefore good. Per Deneen, McIntyre, and other illiberal philosophers, there's no real distinction there.

Given your ideological priors, I can totally understand why you'd want to believe that Laffer's economic policies could be popular again. But it's pure sophistry to argue that Trump supporters weren't unequivocally rejecting it. Trump attacked Ryan, Romney, and all these guys repeatedly during the primary. GOP voters rewarded him with the nomination (which had zero to do with Clinton's weakness), and then flipped a bunch of Midwestern states to give him the White House.

There's no constituency for those economic policies anymore.

 

[wizards8507]

I assume you'd argue that globalism reflects the "values" of the Davos set, and is therefore bad. While globalization is the natural product of Adam Smith's invisible hand, and is therefore good. Per Deneen, McIntyre, and other illiberal philosophers, there's no real distinction there.

Given your ideological priors, I can totally understand why you'd want to believe that Laffer's economic policies could be popular again. But it's pure sophistry to argue that Trump supporters weren't unequivocally rejecting it. Trump attacked Ryan, Romney, and all these guys repeatedly during the primary. GOP voters rewarded him with the nomination (which had zero to do with Clinton's weakness), and then flipped a bunch of Midwestern states to give him the White House.

There's no constituency for those economic policies anymore.

Why do you continually dismiss the effect of the crowded GOP primary field? More people voted for "normal" Republicans than for Trump, but as you know that vote was divided among too many candidates.

Hypothetical: From day one, the Republican primary is between Donald Trump and Paul Ryan. Who do you think wins?

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Why do you continually dismiss the effect of the crowded GOP primary field? More people voted for "normal" Republicans than for Trump, but as you know that vote was divided among too many candidates.

Hypothetical: From day one, the Republican primary is between Donald Trump and Paul Ryan. Who do you think wins?

Ryan wins the nomination, but then proceeds to lose the general, because he's part of the Establishment, and there's very little difference between him and Hillary on economics. Obama's coalition would have held, delivering us to four years of Hillary.

 

[IrishinSyria]

Ryan wins the nomination, but then proceeds to lose the general, because he's part of the Establishment, and there's very little difference between him and Hillary on economics. Obama's coalition would have held, delivering us to four years of Hillary.

TBF Trump isn't a repudiation of anything. He's a complete rorschach who will agree with whoever he happens to have talked to most recently. That's why he came away from his meeting with Obama talking about keeping parts of the ACA in place.

Everyone heard what they wanted to hear from Trump and no more. To the KKK, he was a white nationalist. To rust belt voters, he was a Builder who would revitalize the economy. To the GOP establishment, he was a champion of small government. To isolationists, he would get us out of wars. To neocons, he would win them.

Trump promised everyone everything over the past year. He doesn't stand for anything but Donald J. Trump, Inc.


tl;dr: the GOP establishment only came home because they believed they could shape Trump. The rust belt turned out for Trump because they believed the GOP couldn't. We're in for the mother of all proxy battles, because Trump has no clue who he is as a politician.

 

[loomis41973]

Stuff like good, indoor OG Kush back in the mid 90's to early-mid 2000's.

Man...you were getting ripped off royally.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

TBF Trump isn't a repudiation of anything. He's a complete rorschach who will agree with whoever he happens to have talked to most recently. That's why he came away from his meeting with Obama talking about keeping parts of the ACA in place.

Everyone heard what they wanted to hear from Trump and no more. To the KKK, he was a white nationalist. To rust belt voters, he was a Builder who would revitalize the economy. To the GOP establishment, he was a champion of small government. To isolationists, he would get us out of wars. To neocons, he would win them.

Trump promised everyone everything over the past year. He doesn't stand for anything but Donald J. Trump, Inc.


tl;dr: the GOP establishment only came home because they believed they could shape Trump. The rust belt turned out for Trump because they believed the GOP couldn't. We're in for the mother of all proxy battles, because Trump has no clue who he is as a politician.

I have no illusions about Trump himself. I'm talking about what the Rust Belt voters were voting against. And they were very much repudiating Ryan's economics.

 

[IrishinSyria]

I have no illusions about Trump himself. I'm talking about what the Rust Belt voters were voting against. And they were very much repudiating Ryan's economics.

Oh yeah, I completely agree with you then.

Spoiler, he's going to end up screwing over the rust belt voters.

 

[NDgradstudent]

I wonder if any of these protestors are part of the basket of deportables? If so, it might present an opportunity for ICE.

Attrition through enforcement must be the strategy. The mere election of Trump makes it clear the country means business and that we will be back to enforcing our immigration laws. It is a repudiation of the Democrat approach: that is, a comprehensive refusal to enforce any immigration laws and the prioritization of the interests of foreigners over Americans.

This should encourage many illegals to self-deport- indeed, it has already begun to do so.

 

[IrishLax]

Fake Hate Crimes Going Viral, As Real Violence Surges Against Young Trump Supporters | We Are Change

Muslim Student Charged for Trump Hate Crime Hoax

Some food for thought.

 

[IrishinSyria]

I wonder if any of these protestors are part of the basket of deportables? If so, it might present an opportunity for ICE.

Attrition through enforcement must be the strategy. The mere election of Trump makes it clear the country means business and that we will be back to enforcing our immigration laws. It is a repudiation of the Democrat approach of comprehensive refusal to enforce any immigration laws.

This should encourage many illegals to self-deport- indeed, it has already begun to do so.

totally

 

[IrishLax]

TBF Trump isn't a repudiation of anything. He's a complete rorschach who will agree with whoever he happens to have talked to most recently. That's why he came away from his meeting with Obama talking about keeping parts of the ACA in place.

Everyone heard what they wanted to hear from Trump and no more. To the KKK, he was a white nationalist. To rust belt voters, he was a Builder who would revitalize the economy. To the GOP establishment, he was a champion of small government. To isolationists, he would get us out of wars. To neocons, he would win them.

Trump promised everyone everything over the past year. He doesn't stand for anything but Donald J. Trump, Inc.


tl;dr: the GOP establishment only came home because they believed they could shape Trump. The rust belt turned out for Trump because they believed the GOP couldn't. We're in for the mother of all proxy battles, because Trump has no clue who he is as a politician.

This is a great post.

 

[NDgradstudent]

totally

We can always do better!

 

[NorthDakota]

We can always do better!

Hoping the Don can get that number up to around.....11,000,000. Get them out.