2014 Spring Practice Thread

[koonja]

You keep saying this, but refusing to acknowledge that we are going to be using a different (albeit slightly) scheme. It's not as simple as substituting A player for B player. Ishaq has shown that he can be a very good pass rusher as well. You are assuming that we are running the same scheme and substituting for lessor players. Newsflash… even if that was the case, Nix and Tuitt weren't that effective last year and both were hurt most of the time. Jaylon will be even better and we are considerably upgraded in the secondary.

I'm excited for this defense. I think it will be fast, opportunistic and focused on turnovers. The exact style of play a team with an effective spread offense should have. Stopping the run is absolutely useless if you can score at will. You want to force the other team to run, while trying to force a turnover, when you have a high scoring offense. If the other team can't stop our offense, then running the ball only puts them in a bigger hole. There is only so much time on the clock and if it takes too long to score, it is to the advantage of the spread team.

I guess I didn't know the new scheme was that different. We had Tuitt/Nix/Shembo/Day with their hands in the ground a lot last year.

I'm excited about it too; fast and opportunistic sounds great, I'm just worried about stopping the run. I know Kelly said when he got here that's priority #1 for his defenses, and I think that might be tough this year.

 

[IrishFaninTX]

Like I said, I really hope you guys are all right and I eat crow. But we're essentially adding Jarron Jones in for Nix and Ishaq/Okwara for Tuitt/Shembo.

Tuitt was disappointing in pass rush in 2013, but teams still didn't want to run at his edge, or at least they'd be forced to double team him on edge rush plays.

I can pretty much guarantee teams this year will have no problem game planning to run at either Okwara or Ishaq, opening up more of the field for their offense. You guys know I love Ishaq so I'm not hating on him by any means, I just think we're losing a ton of rush defense and in order to get to passing downs where we can use speed rushers and blitzes, it starts in 1st and 2nd down by stuffing the run, which is something we've been really good at the last 2 years.

I'm not as worried about Jarron Jones as I am replacing Tuitt. I thought Jones looked impressive in his limited role this past year. Some have commented that they don't think he can handle the full load but how does anyone know that? Nix wasn't all that great his first season and didn't fully become a dominating force until 2012. That doesn't mean Jones will have the same turn around and similar time table for that turn around but the kid blocked 2 field goals last year and did a respectable job stepping in when Nix was injured. From everything I have read it sounds like Jones' main issues have been not being physical enough (can be fixed) and his work ethic (also can be fixed and that was Nix' main problem in 2011, too). I'm not all that worried about Day and Jones but not sure what we will get out of the Okwara/Williams experiment, yet. Williams' big trait coming out of high school was as a pass rusher so putting him in that position could be a good thing this year. He has the size to play DE but he needs to get everything sorted out in his head.

 

[IrishLion]

I see a different defense taking play. One where we play more nickel (Riggs) and protect the "big play". Since we will hopefully have a real spread offense, I see our defense taking chances with creative blitzes and protecting the back half of the field. Teams will probably be able to effectively run on us, but that won't matter if we are scoring like a true spread team is suppose to.

I'm on this bandwagon. I think the D is going to act much like BK's first defense at UC: They are going to get crazy with the front seven while keeping the secondary deep. It will create more sacks/turnovers than what we saw from Diaco's unit (I believe UC was top-5 in both categories BK's first year), but it will also open up the "take what you can get" game plan for opposing offenses. Opponents will get their yards and it may look frustrating at times, but they will be forced to sustain drives for the duration of the game... one misstep will create a huge loss/turnover, whether it's a sack/fumble by Ishaq or Redfield picking off a deep ball while he's playing way soft in coverage.

And it helps that the offense should be able to hold its own in a shootout during this transition/if an opponent successfully sustains drives throughout an entire game.

 

[koonja]

Just beat Fing Michigan...

 

[T Town Tommy]

I'm on this bandwagon. I think the D is going to act much like BK's first defense at UC: They are going to get crazy with the front seven while keeping the secondary deep. It will create more sacks/turnovers than what we saw from Diaco's unit (I believe UC was top-5 in both categories BK's first year), but it will also open up the "take what you can get" game plan for opposing offenses. Opponents will get their yards and it may look frustrating at times, but they will be forced to sustain drives for the duration of the game... one misstep will create a huge loss/turnover, whether it's a sack/fumble by Ishaq or Redfield picking off a deep ball while he's playing way soft in coverage.

And it helps that the offense should be able to hold its own in a shootout during this transition/if an opponent successfully sustains drives throughout an entire game.

If BVG utilizes his defensive strategy from the past, I can see him wanting to get aggressive with the front seven. The LBs would probably play a bigger role in run stop than the DL. As long as his DL can hold their own and force pressure, the LBs in BVG's system should be able to clean up. It will be interesting to see exactly what BVG does however.

 

[greyhammer90]

I'm not as worried about Jarron Jones as I am replacing Tuitt. I thought Jones looked impressive in his limited role this past year. Some have commented that they don't think he can handle the full load but how does anyone know that? Nix wasn't all that great his first season and didn't fully become a dominating force until 2012. That doesn't mean Jones will have the same turn around and similar time table for that turn around but the kid blocked 2 field goals last year and did a respectable job stepping in when Nix was injured. From everything I have read it sounds like Jones' main issues have been not being physical enough (can be fixed) and his work ethic (also can be fixed and that was Nix' main problem in 2011, too). I'm not all that worried about Day and Jones but not sure what we will get out of the Okwara/Williams experiment, yet. Williams' big trait coming out of high school was as a pass rusher so putting him in that position could be a good thing this year. He has the size to play DE but he needs to get everything sorted out in his head.

Regarding Jones there is also the difference in situation. Different kids get motivated in different ways. Jarron could be one of those guys who is unmotivated on the bench but when the time comes for him to be "the man" he steps up and his work ethic and motivation climb. Not necessarily saying this is true, but at the same time he wouldn't be the first to be wired that way.

 

[GoIrish41]

I'm on this bandwagon. I think the D is going to act much like BK's first defense at UC: They are going to get crazy with the front seven while keeping the secondary deep. It will create more sacks/turnovers than what we saw from Diaco's unit (I believe UC was top-5 in both categories BK's first year), but it will also open up the "take what you can get" game plan for opposing offenses. Opponents will get their yards and it may look frustrating at times, but they will be forced to sustain drives for the duration of the game... one misstep will create a huge loss/turnover, whether it's a sack/fumble by Ishaq or Redfield picking off a deep ball while he's playing way soft in coverage.

And it helps that the offense should be able to hold its own in a shootout during this transition/if an opponent successfully sustains drives throughout an entire game.

The caveat, of course, is that the offense must to perform at the level that some are suggesting it will. That remains to be seen. I'm not of the opinion, as Wooly said, that it is OK for a team to run for 250 against the ND defense. Even if we have the high-powered offense that some are predicting, what is the point if a team is effectively playing keep-away and staying in it until the end of the game when anything can happen. I'm not sure fast translates into more turnovers. If we are going to pin our hopes on the defense producing a lot of turnovers, I think we may be in for a frustrating season -- especially with the schedule this season.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

I don't see how. Explain?



Hope so. I see Jaylon as an elite coverage LB and potentially elite blitzing LB. He's a good rush LB so far, nothing more IMO. That will come with age/size.

Random tangent of the day, how weird is the phrase 'eat crow'? I don't even know what it means. I'm going to start using something more hip. Not sure what yet, stay tuned!

The Jets found two active defensive ends; Muhammad Wilkerson and Sheldon Richardson, and Wilkerson began to excel at setting the edge, and Richardson got really good at mopping up from the back side. In that defense the linebackers flow, insanely. Since there is no two gap, with all kinds of personnel packages, BVG can bring the pressure, as long as he gets the edge set. They don't have to be fire breathing two-gapper's like Tuitt, Nix, or Kappy became. If BVG can consistently count on teams attacking his edge, he can dial up all kinds of pressure to make them reconsider. Watch film of the Jets defense from last year.

Or, if you prefer :

If BVG utilizes his defensive strategy from the past, I can see him wanting to get aggressive with the front seven. The LBs would probably play a bigger role in run stop than the DL. As long as his DL can hold their own and force pressure, the LBs in BVG's system should be able to clean up. It will be interesting to see exactly what BVG does however.

 

[Fbolt]

Ha! The speculation is rampant - all from 2 three minute vids.

I hope and pray the optimism is warranted. I too want to see a more explosive O and an opportunistic D.

With Golson back on board I do believe that the Irish can score more points. At will? We shall see what his playmaking ability and a new scheme by Kelly will turn out. I'm hoping for 10 points more per game-but not holding my breath.

The new schemes on D with BVG at the helm should be interesting. I believe the change of BVG alone is going to motivate the D somewhat. Certainly interested in what he'll bring.

With that said, us fans will have until next season to speculate on what changes will actually occur and how effective they'll be. I doubt we are going to see much via practices and even in the Spring game. Good to see the Green Kool-Aid is flowing freely!

 

[koonja]

Ha! The speculation is rampant - all from 2 three minute vids.

I hope and pray the optimism is warranted. I too want to see a more explosive O and an opportunistic D.

With Golson back on board I do believe that the Irish can score more points. At will? We shall see what his playmaking ability and a new scheme by Kelly will turn out. I'm hoping for 10 points more per game-but not holding my breath.

The new schemes on D with BVG at the helm should be interesting. I believe the change of BVG alone is going to motivate the D somewhat. Certainly interested in what he'll bring.

With that said, us fans will have until next season to speculate on what changes will actually occur and how effective they'll be. I doubt we are going to see much via practices and even in the Spring game. Good to see the Green Kool-Aid is flowing freely!

FWIW, my concern about the DL has nothing to do with the videos, moreso replacing Nix and Tuitt, who are 1st and 2nd rounders with Ishaq who's good not great and a kid who probably just took his drivers test this past fall, lol. And all of a sudden just because we're smaller we're opportunistic and faster. Sure, but not nearly as good upfront IMO.

On Golson, I take full blame for buying into the 2 minute clips though, lol. ALL IN.

 

[woolybug25]

I guess I didn't know the new scheme was that different. We had Tuitt/Nix/Shembo/Day with their hands in the ground a lot last year.

But not Ishaq. He has shown that he is at his best rushing the passer. Something Diaco never let him do.

I'm excited about it too; fast and opportunistic sounds great, I'm just worried about stopping the run. I know Kelly said when he got here that's priority #1 for his defenses, and I think that might be tough this year.

If we are a true spread offense that scores a lot, then we don't need to stop the run. It's not to our benefit to do so even. When your team scores fast, you want to stop the other team from scoring fast. That way, when you get a turnover, the other team gets themselves into a timing issue. It's a basic philosophy of spread teams. Stop the big play, create turnovers. If we can score 40-50 points a game, then stopping the run isn't a priority.

 

[woolybug25]

FWIW, my concern about the DL has nothing to do with the videos, moreso replacing Nix and Tuitt, who are 1st and 2nd rounders with Ishaq who's good not great and a kid who probably just took his drivers test this past fall, lol. And all of a sudden just because we're smaller we're opportunistic and faster. Sure, but not nearly as good upfront IMO.

On Golson, I take full blame for buying into the 2 minute clips though, lol. ALL IN.

Who didn't play well or often last year. I really don't get your massive concern with replacing two players that weren't playing very much last year to begin with. Nix had 27 tackles for crying out loud.

 

[TheRealLynch51]

FWIW, my concern about the DL has nothing to do with the videos, moreso replacing Nix and Tuitt, who are 1st and 2nd rounders with Ishaq who's good not great and a kid who probably just took his drivers test this past fall, lol. And all of a sudden just because we're smaller we're opportunistic and faster. Sure, but not nearly as good upfront IMO.

On Golson, I take full blame for buying into the 2 minute clips though, lol. ALL IN.

Nix and Tuitt are better players overall and better NFL prospects, but our current D-lineman will be better fits in BVG's 4-3. If we were replacing those guys in a 3-4, then that would suck. But 4-3 fits our current crop of D-Linemen well.

 

[Fbolt]

But not Ishaq. He has shown that he is at his best rushing the passer. Something Diaco never let him do.

Is he really at his best at that position? I see him as an under performer throughout his time at ND. I want him to develop into a beast-and he could do that this year. Certainly weirder things have happened.

 

[koonja]

Who didn't play well or often last year. I really don't get your massive concern with replacing two players that weren't playing very much last year to begin with. Nix had 27 tackles for crying out loud.

You're completely undervaluing Nix's impact on the rushing defense IMO. He was doubled every rush and/or misdirected the RB in the backfield.

Tuitt was lousy on pass rush (glad we finally came around to this after I was hammered for saying it all year, lol), but still, teams didn't run at him and it wasn't a coincidence.

You make it sound like now we're Oregon and having a good DL isn't necessarly as long as we're 'fast and opportunistic'. 1) Our offense will not be Oregon and 2) What happens whenever Oregon plays against a team like Stanford?

What happened to the argument 'SEC teams aren't faster, they just have elite DL which makes their back end look great'?

I seem to specifically remember arguing with Wooly and IrishLax about that .

 

[pkt77242]

But not Ishaq. He has shown that he is at his best rushing the passer. Something Diaco never let him do.



If we are a true spread offense that scores a lot, then we don't need to stop the run. It's not to our benefit to do so even. When your team scores fast, you want to stop the other team from scoring fast. That way, when you get a turnover, the other team gets themselves into a timing issue. It's a basic philosophy of spread teams. Stop the big play, create turnovers. If we can score 40-50 points a game, then stopping the run isn't a priority.

What? One of the best ways to beat a spread team is to pound the ball down their throat and keep their offense off the field. Also I do not have any faith in our offense scoring 40-50 points a game against good teams (Rice won't count) on a consistent basis.

 

[pkt77242]

Who didn't play well or often last year. I really don't get your massive concern with replacing two players that weren't playing very much last year to begin with. Nix had 27 tackles for crying out loud.

I don't think you understand the role that Nix played (or any NG in a 3-4) in our defense last year. Also he missed a couple of games. Nix's job isn't to make tackles, it is to occupy blockers to keep the LBs free to make the tackles.

 

[dublinirish]

people saying tuitt and nix were taking double teams but especially towards the end of the season they simply weren't. Tuitt especially was getting blocked by TE's alone at times.

 

[koonja]

Nix and Tuitt are better players overall and better NFL prospects, but our current D-lineman will be better fits in BVG's 4-3. If we were replacing those guys in a 3-4, then that would suck. But 4-3 fits our current crop of D-Linemen well.

If you think BVG could choose between having Nix and Tuitt or Ishaq and Okwara, and he'd pick the latter, you're straight trippin!

 

[ulukinatme]

I'm not terribly worried about Jarron in for Nix this year. I think there could be some growing pains, but Jarron looked pretty good when he was in last season. I'm more worried about the end position. Rochelle has the size to be a DE in the 3-4, but who else is behind him and Day? If one of those guys goes down again it's going to be hard for the DL to control the outside I think. We have a lot more guys suited as 4-3 DE's than 3-4. I'm definitely more worried about Tuitt's loss than Nix's at the moment, even though NT is the most important position in the 3-4.

 

[woolybug25]

What? One of the best ways to beat a spread team is to pound the ball down their throat and keep their offense off the field. Also I do not have any faith in our offense scoring 40-50 points a game against good teams (Rice won't count) on a consistent basis.

Almost all good spread teams run a defense that focuses on a) stopping the big play and b) causing turnovers. When a spread team is scoring effectively, it puts the other team in a position that they need to score to "keep up". They can try to keep them off the field, but they will eventually either have to punt or have a turnover, at which point, the spread team will put them in a hole. It takes a long time to score running the ball, so every possession the spread team gets ahead of their opponent, creates a timing issue for the other team's offense.

You may not like that style of play, but it is exactly how Oregon, Auburn, Baylor, etc run their style of play. You can't just "keep them off of the field" in college football.

 

[#1rish]

Ben Potential speaks

<iframe src="//player.vimeo.com/video/88086493" width="500" height="281" webkitallowfullscreen mozallowfullscreen allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[pkt77242]

The fact that I am agreeing with the Koon in this thread makes me feel like I am crazy.

 

[ulukinatme]

What? One of the best ways to beat a spread team is to pound the ball down their throat and keep their offense off the field. Also I do not have any faith in our offense scoring 40-50 points a game against good teams (Rice won't count) on a consistent basis.

This. I'll believe it when I see it It's hard putting up 40-50 points against teams when you look at who we play. Not only do we play a number of teams with tough defenses, a number of these teams do a good job with ball control and eating up clock. Hard to score 40-50 very often when the other team is tiring out your defense and eating clock. Oregon doesn't have that problem often because most of the teams they play are offensive finesse teams in the PAC-12. Who do they struggle with though? Stanford, and other teams that play good defense and could eat up clock like Auburn a few years ago and OSU.

 

[TheRealLynch51]

If you think BVG could choose between having Nix and Tuitt or Ishaq and Okwara, and he'd pick the latter, you're straight trippin!

Nix and Tuitt wouldnt be potential first rounders if they played in a 4-3. Fit is important, and while no one wants tk lose two potential first rounders, changing a Defensive philosophy for two players would be stupid and cripple the defense.

 

[connor_in]

This. I'll believe it when I see it It's hard putting up 40-50 points against teams when you look at who we play. Not only do we play a number of teams with tough defenses, a number of these teams do a good job with ball control and eating up clock. Hard to score 40-50 very often when the other team is tiring out your defense and eating clock. Oregon doesn't have that problem often because most of the teams they play are offensive finesse teams in the PAC-12. Who do they struggle with though? Stanford, and other teams that play good defense and could eat up clock like Auburn a few years ago and OSU.

but...but...but...I thought Sparty wasn't on the schedule this year?

 

[koonja]

Nix and Tuitt wouldnt be potential first rounders if they played in a 4-3. Fit is important, and while no one wants tk lose two potential first rounders, changing a Defensive philosophy for two players would be stupid and cripple the defense.

IMO, Tuitt and Nix would crush college football as DTs in a 4-3.

 

[connor_in]

The fact that I am agreeing with the Koon in this thread makes me feel like I am bat-guano crazy.

FIFY

 

[pkt77242]

Almost all good spread teams run a defense that focuses on a) stopping the big play and b) causing turnovers. When a spread team is scoring effectively, it puts the other team in a position that they need to score to "keep up". They can try to keep them off the field, but they will eventually either have to punt or have a turnover, at which point, the spread team will put them in a hole. It takes a long time to score running the ball, so every possession the spread team gets ahead of their opponent, creates a timing issue for the other team's offense.

You may not like that style of play, but it is exactly how Oregon, Auburn, Baylor, etc run their style of play. You can't just "keep them off of the field" in college football.

First off I don't have a problem with those types of offenses but I have seen nothing to make me think that we will have an offense like any of those three this year.

As to those teams, I would say the times that those teams lose, they are beat by an aggressive defense and an offense that keeps them off the field (think Stanford beating Oregon, even UCF vs Baylor). You wear out the spread teams defense that way by keeping them on the field and running it down their throats plus the fact that their offense isn't on the field long enough to give them a breather (either because they scored to fast or punted/turnover).

 

[woolybug25]

You're completely undervaluing Nix's impact on the rushing defense IMO. He was doubled every rush and/or misdirected the RB in the backfield.

Again… we are playing in a different scheme. So a NT isn't a concern when we don't have one on the field. Also… Nix wasn't the 2012 Nix last year. He wasn't getting double teamed every play and missed a lot of time.

Tuitt was lousy on pass rush (glad we finally came around to this after I was hammered for saying it all year, lol), but still, teams didn't run at him and it wasn't a coincidence.

That's just not true. He often was getting singled by TE's and teams routinely ran against him.

You make it sound like now we're Oregon and having a good DL isn't necessarly as long as we're 'fast and opportunistic'. 1) Our offense will not be Oregon and 2) What happens whenever Oregon plays against a team like Stanford?

You're acting like every team that runs a pro set Oregon loses to. Stanford is an anomaly, not the rule. I'll put Oregon up against 90% of the pro set teams with a 3-4 defense all day.

What happened to the argument 'SEC teams aren't faster, they just have elite DL which makes their back end look great'?

Who made that argument? It certainly wasn't me. Also, not all SEC teams run a spread. But go look at Auburn from last year and tell me that it was a defense built on stopping the run.

I seem to specifically remember arguing with Wooly and IrishLax about that

Obviously you don't...