'18 OH DE Malik Vann (Cincinnati Verbal)

[BoredIrish]

Vann reminds me of Jashon Cornell.

 

[dwshade]

They are trying to recruit the best players and there are better players than Vann for this defense. Notice Michigan, OSU and Penn State haven't offered him?

 

[woolybug25]

They are trying to recruit the best players and there are better players than Vann for this defense. Notice Michigan, OSU and Penn State haven't offered him?

Ok. Who is it that's better to replace him with? I think it's pretty clear with his tweets and retweets that he was a lock. So who exactly is this better player for our defense you are referring to?

 

[Luckylucci]

Its making me think they like their chances with Parsons.

I don't think I has anything to do with that. There are quite a few DE's that they are going after as well. They just like the group better, if this is true.

 

[BobbyMac]

Why? I think we can all reasonably see that working the scholarship numbers is something that is manageable. We don't know if any of the other guys mentioned will even end up in the class. In fact, history would tell us that they won't. What do we risk? Neg recruiting from other schools for slow playing committed players? Let's wake up... the great staffs do that year in and year out. There's plenty to neg recruit us on, that's pretty low on the totem pole. We have seen this staffs strategy of trying to gameble with fitting the right pegs in the right holes for every season BK has been here. Multiple assistants, multiple strategies and multiple classes have shown us that's a losing strategy. When we go and fill this class with a bunch of projects around signing day and turn what could have been a top 5 class into a top 15, we will be no better off than where we are today. Recruit the best players that are willing to come here and that fit into our culture. Modify our plans on the talented kids we get here on the team. Then we don't end up playing Joe Schmidt and his cohorts. We play talented dudes that can actually play. Even if they aren't a perfect scheme fit, at least they are good players. It's not that fuqing complicated.

You're singing to the Preacher.

 

[woolybug25]

I don't think I has anything to do with that. There are quite a few DE's that they are going after as well. They just like the group better, if this is true.

It's clear that it's true. The staff has clearly made him believe that he isn't an option for us, despite offering him.

That's another thing... why offer him in the first place? Why recruit him and then bail when he's ready to commit, after months of our recruits building a relationship with him and urging him to join us?

 

[dwshade]

Ok. Who is it that's better to replace him with? I think it's pretty clear with his tweets and retweets that he was a lock. So who exactly is this better player for our defense you are referring to?

If he were a lock he would have committed a long time ago. Booker and Carson are much better prospects at SDE in this defense. Vann was offered by Bama as a 3-4 OLB. Elko doesn't want a 3-4 OLB playing SDE in his defense. Not a good fit.

 

[dwshade]

It's clear that it's true. The staff has clearly made him believe that he isn't an option for us, despite offering him.

That's another thing... why offer him in the first place? Why recruit him and then bail when he's ready to commit, after months of our recruits building a relationship with him and urging him to join us?

New DC comes in and reevaluates prospects. Happens all the time. Vann was offered pre-Elko.

 

[woolybug25]

If he were a lock he would have committed a long time ago. Booker and Carson are much better prospects at SDE in this defense. Vann was offered by Bama as a 3-4 OLB. Elko doesn't want a 3-4 OLB playing SDE in his defense. Not a good fit.

Have you actually looked at his tweets? He was about to commit. He clearly felt like he has to start over now. Everyone that knows anything knew he was a lock and by his own words he is disappointed. Bama immediately offered him once our staff made this decision. I don't give a fuq if he fits our schem perfect because he's more talented than anybody we will get that will in this class. Neither of those two you listed are coming here. That's the same bs dream we chase every year. I've read this book before, maybe you should pick it up, it's a quick read. The ending leaves a bit to be desired.

 

[Luckylucci]

Ok. Who is it that's better to replace him with? I think it's pretty clear with his tweets and retweets that he was a lock. So who exactly is this better player for our defense you are referring to?

I'm not saying this as a rebuttal towards not taking him, but from just a talent perspective or future projection. There are quite a few players I'd take over Vann. A majority of the recent DE offers I'd take over Vann. Again, not saying I agree with the decision, but I don't believe he's the best available player, or even close. Though I'd take him in a heartbeat.

 

[longliveautrydenson]

Is there any chance this was a grades/scores issue?

 

[woolybug25]

I'm not saying this as a rebuttal towards not taking him, but from just a talent perspective or future projection. There are quite a few players I'd take over Vann. A majority of the recent DE offers I'd take over Vann. Again, not saying I agree with the decision, but I don't believe he's the best available player, or even close. Though I'd take him in a heartbeat.

Give me a player that we have a strong possibility of getting at his position that is better than him.

 

[woolybug25]

Is there any chance this was a grades/scores issue?

None

 

[longliveautrydenson]

None

This displeases me. This seems shortsighted and dumb.

 

[dwshade]

Have you actually looked at his tweets? He was about to commit. He clearly felt like he has to start over now. Everyone that knows anything knew he was a lock and by his own words he is disappointed. Bama immediately offered him once our staff made this decision. I don't give a fuq if he fits our sctahem perfect because he's more lented than anybody we will get that will in this class. Neither of those two you listed are coming here. That's the same bs dream we chase every year. I've read this book before, maybe you should pick it up, it's a quick read. The ending leaves a bit to be desired.

And Bama offered him because he fits their scheme. You can deny it all you want but scheme actually matters. And again if Vann is so great where is Michigan, OSU and Penn St.? I'm actually happy it came down this way because there are better options for us. I completely trust Elko.

 

[woolybug25]

And Bama offered him because he fits their scheme. You can deny it all you want but scheme actually matters. And again if Vann is so great where is Michigan, OSU and Penn St.? I'm actually happy it came down this way because there are better options for us. I completely trust Elko.

First of all, they haven't offered him and have had our prized recruits trying to get him to commit the last several months. We have...

Secondly.. UM has Otis Reese and Aiden Hutchinson committed., OSU is the in state fall back and PSU has Micah fuq'n Parsons. Am I talking to a bunch of of crazy people?

 

[longliveautrydenson]

And Bama offered him because he fits their scheme. You can deny it all you want but scheme actually matters. And again if Vann is so great where is Michigan, OSU and Penn St.? I'm actually happy it came down this way because there are better options for us. I completely trust Elko.

I honestly don't know enough about Elko to say definitively that Vamn does or doesn't fit his scheme and should be a pass. I do know however that our biggest problem over the last few years has been the D line. We struggle so hard to find and develop difference makers in the defensive trenches. Vann seemed like a better prospect than other DTs we've taken in the past few years and for that reason I'm a bit disappointed we did what we did.

 

[dwshade]

I honestly don't know enough about Elko to say definitively that Vamn does or doesn't fit his scheme and should be a pass. I do know however that our biggest problem over the last few years has been the D line. We struggle so hard to find and develop difference makers in the defensive trenches. Vann seemed like a better prospect than other DTs we've taken in the past few years and for that reason I'm a bit disappointed we did what we did.

He's not a DT

 

[dwshade]

First of all, they haven't offered him and have had our prized recruits trying to get him to commit the last several months. We have...

Secondly.. UM has Otis Reese and Aiden Hutchinson committed., OSU is the in state fall back and PSU has Micah fuq'n Parsons. Am I talking to a bunch of of crazy people?

The only crazy person is yourself given that you think you know more than Mike Elko knows about football talent and how it fits what he wants to do at ND. We have room for one more SDE in this class and I'll guarantee it will be a better player than Vann.

 

[woolybug25]

I honestly don't know enough about Elko to say definitively that Vamn does or doesn't fit his scheme and should be a pass. I do know however that our biggest problem over the last few years has been the D line. We struggle so hard to find and develop difference makers in the defensive trenches. Vann seemed like a better prospect than other DTs we've taken in the past few years and for that reason I'm a bit disappointed we did what we did.

Specifically pass rush, which we're passing on a good pass rusher.

In fact, we are passing on several guys that their pass rush skills are their defining trait.

But who needs that around here, amirite?

 

[woolybug25]

The only crazy person is yourself given that you think you know more than Mike Elko knows about football talent and how it fits what he wants to do at ND. We have room for one more SDE in this class and I'll guarantee it will be a better player than Vann.

So you don't know of anybody? You don't know the strategies?

But I'm the idiot because I'm not blindly following the strategy of a staff that has done the same gd thing, regardless of coordinators, for years?

Ok then... we'll just all trust them like you... cuz.. "reasons"...


You have zero rational reasons for your belief here. Just "trust the staff". Good luck with that.

 

[longliveautrydenson]

He's not a DT

DE* My point was about the lack of talent along the D-line. It's a consistent, glaring hole on our team.

 

[dwshade]

So you don't know of anybody? You don't know the strategies?

But I'm the idiot because I'm not blindly following the strategy of a staff that has done the same gd thing, regardless of coordinators, for years?

Ok then... we'll just all trust them like you... cuz.. "reasons"...


You have zero rational reasons for your belief here. Just "trust the staff". Good luck with that.

I have already given names. You just don't want to listen. And yes I do trust one of the top DC in college football in his first year at ND. We actually finally have a DC with a plan who knows how to execute said plan. Is it rational to want to find the right players to fit your scheme which allows players to best utilize their skill sets or do we continue doing what we've done in the past and recruit players who don't fit and therefore can't be successful? Sounds to me like you want to continue doings things the same old way.

 

[woolybug25]

I have already given names. You just don't want to listen. And yes I do trust one of the top DC in college football in his first year at ND. We actually finally have a DC with a plan who knows how to execute said plan. Is it rational to want to find the right players to fit your scheme which allows players to best utilize their skill sets or do we continue doing what we've done in the past and recruit players who don't fit and therefore can't be successful? Sounds to me like you want to continue doings things the same old way.

The same old way is passing on this kid. What don't you get about that?

First it was, "there are better players" and then you named two guys that we have no shot at.

Then it was, "what about UM, OSU & PSU" and I clearly explained that they are in better position because they haven't offered and haven't had their commits recruiting them and/or have better player currently committed.

Then you said, "trust the staff" and I clearly laid out how we have utilized this same strategy, one other top programs don't, to bad results the entire time BK has been here.

You have actually not provided one single fact to your argument. Just a bunch of bs pandering with not a fuq'n lick of historical or rational analysis to your argument. Which really just adds up to... "trust the staff". Well sorry.. that ship has sailed.

 

[longliveautrydenson]

I have already given names. You just don't want to listen. And yes I do trust one of the top DC in college football in his first year at ND. We actually finally have a DC with a plan who knows how to execute said plan. Is it rational to want to find the right players to fit your scheme which allows players to best utilize their skill sets or do we continue doing what we've done in the past and recruit players who don't fit and therefore can't be successful? Sounds to me like you want to continue doings things the same old way.

I feel like I would be more supportive of your "trust the process" approach if we weren't a 4-8 team with a history of failures at d-line recruiting.

 

[dwshade]

The same old way is passing on this kid. What don't you get about that?

First it was, "there are better players" and then you named two guys that we have no shot at.

Then it was, "what about UM, OSU & PSU" and I clearly explained that they are in better position because they haven't offered and haven't had their commits recruiting them and/or have better player currently committed.

Then you said, "trust the staff" and I clearly laid out how we have utilized this same strategy, one other top programs don't, to bad results the entire time BK has been here.

You have actually not provided one single fact to your argument. Just a bunch of bs pandering with not a fuq'n lick of historical or rational analysis to your argument. Which really just adds up to... "trust the staff". Well sorry.. that ship has sailed.

Since you already know who is and isn't going to sign with us you might want to contact the staff and let them know. Then go get help for PMS because you are obviously going off a deep end.

 

[woolybug25]

Since you already know who is and isn't going to sign with us you might want to contact the staff and let them know. Then go get help for PMS because you are obviously going off a deep end.

You're being a contrarian just to be a contrarian. You've just been beaten with facts.

Embrace it.

 

[Luckylucci]

Give me a player that we have a strong possibility of getting at his position that is better than him.

1. I'd take Vann and figure it out later.

2. I'm not going to pretend to know where we stand with all these players, and obviously Vann was a lock. However......

3. I sincerely like the entire DE (WDE and SDE) board better than him, at this time. Do we have a better chance with Booker, Carson, Osasai, etc. of course not. However, depending on how the staff views guys like Justin A and Ovie and how many spots are available, I'd much rather have those DE's, and with some it's not even close.

4. Just in general, I like O'Rourke and Waggoner better.

5. This is just opinion and some reading of tea leaves. I think the staff already has it's Tweener in Justin A, and seem to be looking for more specific traits with the rest of the DE offers. Speed/quickness and size.

Edit: I'll just add that both Elko and Lea are huge believers in length. Both admit it's not the end all be all, but it's certainly very important to them. Just look at their recent players at all LB and DE positions.

 

[woolybug25]

1. I'd take Vann and figure it out later.

2. I'm not going to pretend to know where we stand with all these players, and obviously Vann was a lock. However......

3. I sincerely like the entire DE (WDE and SDE) board better than him, at this time. Do we have a better chance with Booker, Carson, Osasai, etc. of course not. However, depending on how the staff views guys like Justin A and Ovie and how many spots are available, I'd much rather have those DE's, and with some it's not even close.

4. Just in general, I like O'Rourke and Waggoner better.

5. This is just opinion and some reading of tea leaves. I think the staff already has it's Tweener in Justin A, and seem to be looking for more specific traits with the rest of the DE offers. Speed/quickness and size.

I agree with all that. Two questions though.

1) Well... not a question really, but a comment. I would love O'Rourke and Waggoner. Too bad we haven't offered them.

2) Why did we offer Vann and allow one of our cornerpiece recruits in Stepp to recruit him for months? Nothing has changed since then. We aren't any more likely to get a bette recruit nor were Justin A or Ovie a new development. Even if it weren't short sighted to bail on Vann, don't we have an argument that the strategy around his recruitment has been grossly flawed?

 

[Luckylucci]

I agree with all that. Two questions though.

1) Well... not a question really, but a comment. I would love O'Rourke and Waggoner. Too bad we haven't offered them.

2) Why did we offer Vann and allow one of our cornerpiece recruits in Stepp to recruit him for months? Nothing has changed since then. We aren't any more likely to get a bette recruit nor were Justin A or Ovie a new development. Even if it weren't short sighted to bail on Vann, don't we have an argument that the strategy around his recruitment has been grossly flawed?

1. I agree. Which says one of two things to me. They feel confident with the current DE board, or they are looking for something else, not sure what that is though.

2. I don't know and agree it's puzzling. But with previous defensive staffs where the DC is asleep at the wheel with recruiting. He is very hands on and knows what he wants and tries to get it. So I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise. Not saying everyone has to follow, but that'll be my approach until I have reason to question him.

I really think this is going to be an entirely different experience with defensive recruiting, than what we are used to. But there will always be players that we are puzzled with, and why they don't have offers.