'18 OH DE Malik Vann (Cincinnati Verbal)

[fightingirish26]

I have a hard time seeing stepp and co going after vann as hard as they were without approval at the very least from the staff. I have no real opinion of vann as a player, but I hope this doesn't strain relationships.

 

[KizerWilhelm]

At the end of the day, I'm going to say Elko probably understands Elko's defense better than I understand Elko's defense.

 

[woolybug25]

I approve of this pass. Look what Elko had done in 3 months here. I imagine he can get a DE he loves in another 12 months with official visits and a season to recruit.

OSU/Michigan don't want him at DE either. How many successful college DEs do you see at 6'1"? I wouldn't have been upset if he did commit to us and the staff let him, but I'm definitely not upset we passed.

I find it how all of you loved the kid until we decided to pass. lol

I already addressed why UM, OSU and PSU haven't offered yet. It's pretty rational, what isn't rational is offering him and pursuing him hard until he wants to commit and then passing. Regardless if we end up with a better recruit (pro tip: we probably wont), it's still a shitty strategy and quite frankly... pretty unfair to Vann.

Is Bama a good enough offer for you, Koon?

 

[BobbyMac]

He's not 6-1 anymore. Let's stay focused on what the real reasons are.

I've been concerned with the reports of Vann's height being 6-1. Here's a picture of him with Coach Fickell who used to be 6-4. This makes me feel better.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Had a great visit to UC today! I'll be back very soon ‼ <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/CinCityPride?src=hash">#CinCityPride</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/GoBearcats?src=hash">#GoBearcats</a> 🔴⚫️⚪️ <a href="https://t.co/SL1XYQMxJH">pic.twitter.com/SL1XYQMxJH</a></p>— Malik Vann❕ (@MalikVann7) <a href="https://twitter.com/MalikVann7/status/833034722112569348">February 18, 2017</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[koonja]

I find it how all of you loved the kid until we decided to pass. lol

I already addressed why UM, OSU and PSU haven't offered yet. It's pretty rational, what isn't rational is offering him and pursuing him hard until he wants to commit and then passing. Regardless if we end up with a better recruit (pro tip: we probably wont), it's still a shitty strategy and quite frankly... pretty unfair to Vann.

Is Bama a good enough offer for you, Koon?

I never loved him, and Bama offered him as a LB. It's also not unfair to Vann. We all agree we should offer more prospects, even if we're not ready to take a commitment.

The new staff has started doing this and offering more and everyone's happy with it.

 

[GBdomer]

I find it how all of you loved the kid until we decided to pass. lol

I already addressed why UM, OSU and PSU haven't offered yet. It's pretty rational, what isn't rational is offering him and pursuing him hard until he wants to commit and then passing. Regardless if we end up with a better recruit (pro tip: we probably wont), it's still a shitty strategy and quite frankly... pretty unfair to Vann.

Is Bama a good enough offer for you, Koon?

To back Koon up here he was wondering how good Vann really was and was kind of questioning him as a player. Don't think he loved him while there are other posters who did love him and saw elite/pass rushing traits in him and that's not really what he's known for as a player. Which leads to me believe which film some of these people were watching.

 

[Rogue219]

At the end of the day, I'm going to say Elko probably understands Elko's defense better than I understand Elko's defense.

I can't really add to this. Sums it up nicely.

Guess we'll see how it goes.

 

[Irishman77]

What power and knock back force. I would like him to get a look at mike

Me and Bama knew a month ago

 

[Domina Nostra]

If we take 4 WRs and pass on a 4-star DE, I am going to cry more than usual.

 

[OCIrish]

If we take 4 WRs and pass on a 4-star DE, I am going to cry more than usual.

Right, because we've absolutely hit it out of the fucking park in terms of DE recruiting the past 2 years......

 

[Domina Nostra]

Right, because we've absolutely hit it out of the fucking park in terms of DE recruiting the past 2 years......

It's frickin' weird. Almost every year, instead of just building with some normal 4-star dudes at a position of need, like we do with every other position, the staff:

(1) gets significant interest from some decent 4-star prospects;
(2) gets a wink from a couple of the 5-star guys that everyone on earth wants;
(3) loses interest in the 4-stars, and chases the 5-stars like the nerd from some teen flick, because we are aiming for NCs ! (as if you can just turn your program a round in 1 year)
(4) concludes that a 6'8 275 lb. DE that runs a 4.3 is superior to a 6'2" 240 lb. all-state kid
this is where we currently are...
(5) passes on the decent 4-star prospects
(6) gets passed-over by 5-stars (except for 2011)
(7) scrambles late
(8) gets one or two 3-star projects
(9) wonders what happened
(10) immediately forgets and repeats

 

[Luckylucci]

Right, because we've absolutely hit it out of the fucking park in terms of DE recruiting the past 2 years......

It's more about redistribution of scholarships or bringing more balance to the roster, than it is anything else. We've signed 6 DE's in the last two classes. We can't keep up that pace. Depending on how you view Justin A., we already have 1 in this class. So, I think Elko is trying to make sure he gets DE's that he really likes, because depth isn't an issue.

Of those 6 players, I like 3 of them better than Vann, and we'll see who he can sign in this class.

 

[Domina Nostra]

It's more about redistribution of scholarships or bringing more balance to the roster, than it is anything else. We've signed 6 DE's in the last two classes. We can't keep up that pace. Depending on how you view Justin A., we already have 1 in this class. So, I think Elko is trying to make sure he gets DE's that he really likes, because depth isn't an issue.

Of those 6 players, I like 3 of them better than Vann, and we'll see who he can sign in this class.

I think lumping WDEs and SDEs in the same group like conflating WRs and TEs.

Also, while there are 3 in the last two, there are really none above them.

We have Okwara, Hayes, and Wardlow. You could throw in Jones, but that is robbing Peter to pay Paul.

 

[Luckylucci]

I think lumping WDEs and SDEs in the same group like conflating WRs and TEs.

We have Okwara, Hayes, and possibly Ogundeji, though he looks like a SDE. You could throw in Jones, but that is robbing Peter to pay Paul.

We signed 3 of each the last two cycles, that is why I lumped them together. Plus, it's a little unknown what position they view him at. My assumption is SDE, but the numbers are the same, so it's irrelevant.

 

[Domina Nostra]

We signed 3 of each the last two cycles, that is why I lumped them together. Plus, it's a little unknown what position they view him at. My assumption is SDE, but the numbers are the same, so it's irrelevant.

But it's not irrelevant. They are different positions that require separate skill sets.

On the roster right not we have Okwara, Hayes, and Wardlow as rush ends. There is no one above them. When you have nothing in the upper-classes, you can't afford to be stingy because you have no clue what you have yet.

All three are question marks because they haven't done anything yet. Hayes also has injury-history, Okwara also has some questions about his frame, while Wardlow is a pure project. We need more solid prospects at that position, just like at safety. Other positions will have to suffer for a while. The most logical to me is WR.

They ultimately need to get back into a cycle of signing approximately 22 per class, a kid at every position, except for OL because of 5th years, but they aren't there yet. Take 1 per year unless you have a problem at that position, then take 2.

 

[OCIrish]

It's more about redistribution of scholarships or bringing more balance to the roster, than it is anything else. We've signed 6 DE's in the last two classes. We can't keep up that pace. Depending on how you view Justin A., we already have 1 in this class. So, I think Elko is trying to make sure he gets DE's that he really likes, because depth isn't an issue.

Of those 6 players, I like 3 of them better than Vann, and we'll see who he can sign in this class.

No, Lucky, I'm not disagreeing that depth is the problem. I just think we've got more than a few projects on the team already, and he's fairly local. I just hate passing on kids who are close and WANT to be in South Bend. Not to mention he did fantastic at the futures camp earlier this year.

 

[OCIrish]

Domina, don't forget Hayes.

 

[Luckylucci]

But it's not irrelevant. They are different positions that require separate skill sets.

On the roster right not we have Okwara, Hayes, and Wardlow as rush ends. There is no one above them. When you have nothing in the upper-classes, you can't afford to be stingy because you have no clue what you have yet.

All three are question marks because they haven't done anything yet. Hayes also has injury-history, Okwara also has some questions about his frame, while Wardlow is a pure project. We need more solid prospects at that position, just like at safety. Other positions will have to suffer for a while. The most logical to me is WR.

They ultimately need to get back into a cycle of signing approximately 22 per class, a kid at every position, except for OL because of 5th years, but they aren't there yet. Take 1 per year unless you have a problem at that position, then take 2.

1. Fully aware, but for the sake of the conversation, the numbers are the same, so it's irrelevant. Numbers are the same.

2. Nobody is saying they should pass on the position. The point is, unless they view him as a guy that can contribute, we don't need more bodies.

3. Assuming we take 1 for each spot, when this class shows up on campus, we'll have a 4 deep at both positions with 2+ years of eligibility. Again, no need for bodies. We need players, and they don't view him as one.

 

[Luckylucci]

No, Lucky, I'm not disagreeing that depth is the problem. I just think we've got more than a few projects on the team already, and he's fairly local. I just hate passing on kids who are close and WANT to be in South Bend. Not to mention he did fantastic at the futures camp earlier this year.

And I understand that, and is my initial feeling on the topic as well. However, we do need to start getting guys that will be contributors, and they must not view him as one. And like I mentioned before, I like the DE board, not sure any are locks like him but since numbers aren't an issue, if I think I can get Booker, I probably go that route as well.

 

[BobbyMac]

Don't forget Ogundeji either.

 

[OCIrish]

Don't forget Ogundeji either.

Crusader, I still view him as a project. He could surprise, but that's how I'm viewing him.

 

[OCIrish]

Lucky, I agree about Booker, I'm just not sure the interest is there on his part. No info, just gut feeling.

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

Because of Diaco's and BVG's mishandling of recruiting duties, I'll be more skeptical with Elko but I'll at least give him one full cycle before I start criticizing his moves.

We have limited schollies this year and he knows what he wants for his defense. He gets a year minimum.

I understand the frustration but I won't engage...yet.

 

[Greenore]

Because of Diaco's and BVG's mishandling of recruiting duties, I'll be more skeptical with Elko but I'll at least give him one full cycle before I start criticizing his moves.

We have limited schollies this year and he knows what he wants for his defense. He gets a year minimum.

I understand the frustration but I won't engage...yet.

I agree. We have had, thus far, an exceptional recruiting experience on both sides of the ball.

I will admit that this entire Vann recruitment has left me very puzzled and has somewhat deflated my enthusiasm. As another poster stated, it would likely be both helpful and enlightening to have the history to know the type of kids Elko likes to engage. Cheers!

 

[Domina Nostra]

1. Fully aware, but for the sake of the conversation, the numbers are the same, so it's irrelevant. Numbers are the same.

2. Nobody is saying they should pass on the position. The point is, unless they view him as a guy that can contribute, we don't need more bodies.

3. Assuming we take 1 for each spot, when this class shows up on campus, we'll have a 4 deep at both positions with 2+ years of eligibility. Again, no need for bodies. We need players, and they don't view him as one.

If they see Vann as a SDE, and not a pass rusher, I would agree that there is no need to get him at this point.

1 per year is ideal depth, but, IMO, taking 4 in 1 year, and skipping the next 3 years doesn't get you to the same place. It's not just about having depth, but also experience. Similar issue, but not as extreme, when you take 0,0,2,1.

 

[NDMIA]

I'm as mystified as any on the passing of Vann. However, my guess is they take 4 DL this cycle. They already have

Jayson Ademilola .9085
Justin Ademilola .8878

And they are going after Mustipher for the interior with a few backups. That leaves one spot for

Micah Parsons WDE 6-3 235 0.9986
KJ Henry WDE 6-5.5 235 0.9871
Justin Mascoll WDE 6-4 237 0.9575
Elijah Wade WDE 6-5 240 0.9357
Tyreke Smith WDE 6-3 260 0.9273
Thomas Booker WDE 6-4 250 0.9069
Malik Vann SDE 6-1.5 243 0.9054
Joseph Ossai WDE 6-4217 0.8842
Daniel Carson SDE 6-5 260 0.8556
Abdul-Malik McClain WDE 6-3 225 NR

I think by signing day 2018 a spot will open up and they should have taken Vann, but I don't know what kind of chance they have with the guys listed above. I personally think if they end up taking Carson or McClain over Vann then just doesn't make much sense but I'm no expert at all.

 

[Luckylucci]

If they see Vann as a SDE, and not a pass rusher, I would agree that there is no need to get him at this point.

1 per year is ideal depth, but, IMO, taking 4 in 1 year, and skipping the next 3 years doesn't get you to the same place. It's not just about having depth, but also experience. Similar issue, but not as extreme, when you take 0,0,2,1.

1. Last year at Wake, Elko's best pass rusher was his SDE. Huge misconception is that the WDE is your "pass rusher", and it isn't always the case. We need pass rushers, but that could come from WDE, SDE, Buck, Rover, etc. In fact, to take it even further, last year at Wake, Elko's Rover had more TFL's and sacks, than his WDE.

2. On your last comment, that's not even close to what is happening, so I'm not sure why you are concerned by that. They signed 2 in 16' and 1 in 17'. So they are on track from a numbers perspective. Again, if we sign one at both positions, that will be 4 deep at both positions to start the 2018 season. 2 juniors, 1 sophomore, and 1 Freshman, that's good numbers. Can't change what happened in the past.

3. Plus, you don't fix the problem by loading up more in one class. It's about balance and you have to start to build out balance at some point. He started with LB last cycle, and it looks like DE might be this cycle. While focusing on getting numbers at DB

 

[Calabrese's People]

Ive always been of the opinion that we should recruit the following every year:
1 x Big Lump Lineman - Jayson

1 x Athletic Lumpy Lineman - (PJ Mustipher)

2 x Lumpy Athletic Lineman - Justin & (Tyreke Smith/ Thomas Booker etc)

1 x Athletic Lineman - Ovie

That should be the formal criteria for assessment.

 

[BobbyMac]

Ive always been of the opinion that we should recruit the following every year:
1 x Big Lump Lineman - Jayson

1 x Athletic Lumpy Lineman - (PJ Mustipher)

2 x Lumpy Athletic Lineman - Justin & (Tyreke Smith/ Thomas Booker etc)

1 x Athletic Lineman - Ovie

That should be the formal criteria for assessment.

There's a first, Thomas Booker and Lumpy used in the same sentence. CP, you better look like this to be calling Book lumpy:

 

[Calabrese's People]

We need more ATHLETES like this: