'18 CA OT Jarrett Patterson (Notre Dame Signee)

allenm5333

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Here is my galaxy brain theory:
-Patterson is the best center on the team. However, his pec injury is still a cause of concern.
-Plugging Zeke at Center will provide some insurance. The C does makes so many calls on the field that you need that consistent voice.
-Plugging Patterson at Guard is good because if he is not 100%, you can more easily replace him at guard
 

Irish#1

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i'll eat crow if wrong but no way in hell are you moving one of the top five centers in the nation when healthy to OG during his last year after spending all these years playing only center
You want any side dishes with that? lol There are several articles that talk about Correll improving so much that moving Patterson is likely.
 

Reaper97

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You want any side dishes with that? lol There are several articles that talk about Correll improving so much that moving Patterson is likely.
To be fair, everyone agrees that Patterson is still much, much better than Correll at Center.
It’s more about the fact that Correll stinks at Guard & Patterson can play all five positions.
To get the best five OL on the field they would have to squeeze Correl in at Center.
 

Irish#1

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To be fair, everyone agrees that Patterson is still much, much better than Correll at Center.
It’s more about the fact that Correll stinks at Guard & Patterson can play all five positions.
To get the best five OL on the field they would have to squeeze Correl in at Center.
I agree that Patterson is the better center, but I wouldn't say they are squeezing Correll in at center. The one article talked about how much Correll has improved that it prompted the idea of moving Patterson. Patterson & Correll > Kristofic & Patterson.
 

Reaper97

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I agree that Patterson is the better center, but I wouldn't say they are squeezing Correll in at center. The one article talked about how much Correll has improved that it prompted the idea of moving Patterson. Patterson & Correll > Kristofic & Patterson.
Correll would start at Center at basically every school in the country other than ND because of Patterson.
But if ND had better options at OG, then we wouldn’t see Correll play this year.
Basically, Correll is better at Center than other ND players are at OG.

I personally would love to see Buchner running the read option to the right behind Patterson & Fisher. I don’t see any DL in the country being able to handle that combo.
 

Luckylucci

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Correll would start at Center at basically every school in the country other than ND because of Patterson.
But if ND had better options at OG, then we wouldn’t see Correll play this year.
Basically, Correll is better at Center than other ND players are at OG.

I personally would love to see Buchner running the read option to the right behind Patterson & Fisher. I don’t see any DL in the country being able to handle that combo.

Yea, hopefully it takes Lugg off the field.

I think this just comes down to who are the best 5. If Correll is better than Lugg or Kristofic you make the move.
 

Huntr

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Pretty sure Prister or O'Malley already reported that as a near certainty right after spring ended

Listening to the latest II pod and O'Malley said, when talking about big, athletic guards (like Bama's), "I think that's what I like so much about guys like Schrauth and now Jarrett Patterson now being at guard..."

Sounds like a done deal.
 

stpeteirish

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I'm a little surprised Rocco isn't one of the "best five" at this point. I was under the impression he was "college ready" last year.
 

Veritate Duce Progredi

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To be fair, everyone agrees that Patterson is still much, much better than Correll at Center.
It’s more about the fact that Correll stinks at Guard & Patterson can play all five positions.
To get the best five OL on the field they would have to squeeze Correl in at Center.
False. No one agrees that Patterson is much, much better than Correll at center.

But that isn't the equation at play. In order to get the best 5, it goes like this:

Is Correll (C), Patterson (G) > Patterson (C), everyone else (G)

That answer, as of now, appears to be true.
 

Veritate Duce Progredi

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I'm a little surprised Rocco isn't one of the "best five" at this point. I was under the impression he was "college ready" last year.
What gave you that impression? I've seen this multiple times, I was hopeful that he'd be another trend buster but we rarely have a RS freshman on the OL. The fact that he had two classmates already starting probably makes it feel like he's falling behind but that isn't the case. Give him another fall and maybe spring/summer and see where he is as a RS soph.

We have a lot of older players vying for positions, it's hard to unseat upperclassmen with a lot of experience. That's what he needs to do to beat Lugg at the other guard position.
 

Reaper97

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False. No one agrees that Patterson is much, much better than Correll at center.

But that isn't the equation at play. In order to get the best 5, it goes like this:

Is Correll (C), Patterson (G) > Patterson (C), everyone else (G)

That answer, as of now, appears to be true.
Wrong.
Patterson was an AA.
Patterson is a preseason AA.
Patterson is an early round draft pick next year.
Correll played a couple games at Center when Patterson was hurt.

Every podcast you listen to will say Patterson is probably the best Center in the country and Correll is pretty good.

If you don’t understand the difference between the best Center in the country & a good college Center, I can’t help you.

And if your entire family has Covid, your deep freeze is broke & your lawn needs mowed, get off the football board & go mow your lawn or take care of your family…
 

Old Man Mike

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"And if your entire family has Covid, your deep freeze is broke & your lawn needs mowed, get off the football board & go mow your lawn or take care of your family"…?What the heck is this comment about? Seems to have a nasty edge to it.

As to Patterson and Correll, I think that Coach has a perfectly good idea as to what we need to do. All three of Patterson, Correll, and Lugg appear to be part of that current plan. Lugg is a powerhouse --- an injured powerhouse who was forced to play out of position due to our Tackle injuries last season. Now that Tackle will hopefully be our strength, he can move to his natural position as a mauler guard, an opportunity that he has earned and I believe he will be good at.
 

Veritate Duce Progredi

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Wrong.
Patterson was an AA.
Patterson is a preseason AA.
Patterson is an early round draft pick next year.
Correll played a couple games at Center when Patterson was hurt.

Every podcast you listen to will say Patterson is probably the best Center in the country and Correll is pretty good.

If you don’t understand the difference between the best Center in the country & a good college Center, I can’t help you.

And if your entire family has Covid, your deep freeze is broke & your lawn needs mowed, get off the football board & go mow your lawn or take care of your family…
I understand doing two things at once might seem challenging to you. ;)

I, however, am perfectly capable of taking care of my family while intermittently reading message board fodder and replying. Thanks for the life suggestions.

So you are saying Correll at center and Patterson at guard isn't better than Patterson at center and someone else at guard? Is that what I understand? If there was a drastic difference between Correll and Patterson then surely the next best guard would be better than having to shift our pre-season All-American center to guard, right?
 

ab2cmiller

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I understand doing two things at once might seem challenging to you. ;)

I, however, am perfectly capable of taking care of my family while intermittently reading message board fodder and replying. Thanks for the life suggestions.

So you are saying Correll at center and Patterson at guard isn't better than Patterson at center and someone else at guard? Is that what I understand? If there was a drastic difference between Correll and Patterson then surely the next best guard would be better than having to shift our pre-season All-American center to guard, right?
He appeared only to be picking apart your first statement. The rest he ignored.
 

Domina Nostra

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I understand doing two things at once might seem challenging to you. ;)

I, however, am perfectly capable of taking care of my family while intermittently reading message board fodder and replying. Thanks for the life suggestions.

So you are saying Correll at center and Patterson at guard isn't better than Patterson at center and someone else at guard? Is that what I understand? If there was a drastic difference between Correll and Patterson then surely the next best guard would be better than having to shift our pre-season All-American center to guard, right?
He appeared only to be picking apart your first statement. The rest he ignored.

And just to be clear, it's picking apart a course of action that the coaches seem to favor, right?
 

Domina Nostra

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"And if your entire family has Covid, your deep freeze is broke & your lawn needs mowed, get off the football board & go mow your lawn or take care of your family"…?What the heck is this comment about? Seems to have a nasty edge to it.

As to Patterson and Correll, I think that Coach has a perfectly good idea as to what we need to do. All three of Patterson, Correll, and Lugg appear to be part of that current plan. Lugg is a powerhouse --- an injured powerhouse who was forced to play out of position due to our Tackle injuries last season. Now that Tackle will hopefully be our strength, he can move to his natural position as a mauler guard, an opportunity that he has earned and I believe he will be good at.

OMM, you sound optimistic that Lugg is a natural OG.

I am in 100% agreement that based on his size and athletic profile, OG sure seems like the right position.

However, I have also heard multiple times that Lugg is one of those guys that just never really gets comfortable on the inside for whatever reason, and that OT is actually his better position--they all seem to agree that it is counterintuitive, but the perception of the coaches.

Have you heard differently? (Thread purists are free to move this question to another thread. :))

Either way, are there some kids who are built for the muck, but just don't really do well in there?
 

Old Man Mike

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Hmmm... have not heard that subtlety about Lugg (I'll continue my response here because it is really related to all this "where go Patterson and Correll?" discussion.) Lugg seems better than his performance last season (although my viewing of his last half performance was pretty good analyzed play-by-play.) I've assumed that a healthier player would play even better especially as games wore on into the second halves. Given those not unreasonable assumptions, and the veteran experience of the player, and the very normal trajectory of an OLineman getting more and more "MAN" in his last years, including Lugg in the starting five seemed a given, at least as an initial coach's eye position. And that seemed absolutely correct in the Spring. With Alt and Fisher as the untouchable bookends, Lugg should go inside. He seems on the surface to be nearly a Kraemer clone --- monstrously powerful and made for the meathouse. (For objectors to Kraemer, if there still are such misguided souls, check the Lions roster last season and note that he got playing time a lot once they got to see him operate --- even started once.)

So Lugg should "naturally" go to guard, and be Kraemer. Leaving us to sort out Patterson, Correll, and Kristovic and whoever else might rise up. But why can't Lugg "be comfortable" at Guard? This almost sounds made up. But if it isn't, then we're stuck with "uncomfortableness" with the two-sided chaos which a great guard has to negotiate. The "Space Control" of a Tackle is large but relatively simple. The Space Control for a Guard is condensed and dynamically in flux on both sides of him. Could Lugg be poor-sighted in one direction? One of my brothers was (made up for it by being a Q Nelson style blaster who knocked the opponent on his ass a good bit of the time.) Is Lugg too one-sided in his agility? Can he not suddenly turn one of the ways to shift to a blitz? I guess that's possible, just haven't heard anything specific enough to rise above dataless speculation.

It's VERY difficult for me to envision a 2022 ND OLine starting line-up without Josh Lugg at guard. AND if that is true, then the discussion in this thread is exactly on point for the other two spots. If All-American Center Patterson is at Center, then Correll might not be in the line-up. And Kristovic might instead ... or Coach finds another guy --- he certainly has a lot to choose from. And, I also find it hard to believe that we won't have a DAMM good Five Fingers of Doom, regardless of who Coach puts out there (assuming Alt, Fisher, and Patterson are three of them --- that's THREE All-American quality linemen folks.)

One further thing about Tackle vs Guard: If you get beat at Tackle, you usually know immediately why. That gives some strange comfort if you believe in yourself. If you get beat at Guard, the complexity of what just happened may remain confusing. And leave you "discomforted" to put it in civilized terms. If any of that is the case with Lugg, then he's overthinking things and needs to just buckle-up for the next play, trust his teammates and bury at least one opponent on that play. The opponents can't trick you multiple times in a row even with a great DC, and your team will navigate its share.

The only other thing that I can think of is similar: If you overthink things you don't spontaneously react as quickly. Maybe Josh is too cerebral and hesitates in the midst of chaos just a blink. Hope that's not true. Picture the common well-disguised DT/DE arc game which drags the guard toward the OT and suddenly the DE loops around into the gap. Need not to stop to blink on things like that. But snaps often cure most of that via anticipation of things already seen. All of that reasoning gives me hope that Lugg is OK.
 
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Luckylucci

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Lugg was not moved to RT because of injuries. They put him at RT before the injuries. In terms is size, he’s got the height of a prototype OT, 6’6 7/8. He’s just not any good. The reason Lugg is back is because after 5 years is he had no NFL prospects.

I truly wish him nothing but the best but we should hope for better from a 5th year OL than coming back for a 6th because he has no career prospects in football. We should expect more from our OL.
 

Old Man Mike

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.... added pieces of information:
1. Notre Dame is projected to have four guys certainly drafted, including Patterson high but behind Mayer and Foskey.
2. Neither Correll nor Lugg is expected to be drafted, and Correll is rated slightly higher of the two. Scouts like his mobility/speed.
3. Scouting reports have surprisingly nice things to say about Lugg despite all of that.

  • Quick-footed with smooth movement skills to cover a large area. Rangy with above average lateral ability. Bursts off the snap and sets up quickly with little wasted motion.
  • Quick off the snap. Naturally light on his feet and flashes good flexibility and balance. Good straight-line speed in getting to the second level and the ability to adjust to defenders.
  • Eases out of his stance and has a finisher's mentality. Bends his knees, has above-average mobility and keeps his base square to adjust to counters.
  • Lone concern is handling the superquick NFL edge rusher. Foot speed and quickness are very good, but not elite.
  • Has good footwork and technique. Balanced and agile pass protection set with excellent hand placement.
Note that their comments see him in OT terms. Saying that he "is not any good" seems WAY off base to me.
 

Irish#1

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Wrong.
Patterson was an AA.
Patterson is a preseason AA.
Patterson is an early round draft pick next year.
Correll played a couple games at Center when Patterson was hurt.

Every podcast you listen to will say Patterson is probably the best Center in the country and Correll is pretty good.

If you don’t understand the difference between the best Center in the country & a good college Center, I can’t help you.

And if your entire family has Covid, your deep freeze is broke & your lawn needs mowed, get off the football board & go mow your lawn or take care of your family…
Chill dude.
 

Domina Nostra

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OMM, you sound optimistic that Lugg is a natural OG.

I am in 100% agreement that based on his size and athletic profile, OG sure seems like the right position.

However, I have also heard multiple times that Lugg is one of those guys that just never really gets comfortable on the inside for whatever reason, and that OT is actually his better position.

Have you heard differently? (Thread purists are free to move this question to another thread. :))

Hmmm... have not heard that subtlety about Lugg (I'll continue my response here because it is really related to all this "where go Patterson and Correll?" discussion.) Lugg seems better than his performance last season (although my viewing of his last half performance was pretty good analyzed play-by-play.) I've assumed that a healthier player would play even better especially as games wore on into the second halves. Given those not unreasonable assumptions, and the veteran experience of the player, and the very normal trajectory of an OLineman getting more and more "MAN" in his last years, including Lugg in the starting five seemed a given, at least as an initial coach's eye position. And that seemed absolutely correct in the Spring. With Alt and Fisher as the untouchable bookends, Lugg should go inside. He seems on the surface to be nearly a Kraemer clone --- monstrously powerful and made for the meathouse. (For objectors to Kraemer, if there still are such misguided souls, check the Lions roster last season and note that he got playing time a lot once they got to see him operate --- even started once.)

So Lugg should "naturally" go to guard, and be Kraemer. Leaving us to sort out Patterson, Correll, and Kristovic and whoever else might rise up. But why can't Lugg "be comfortable" at Guard? This almost sounds made up. But if it isn't, then we're stuck with "uncomfortableness" with the two-sided chaos which a great guard has to negotiate. The "Space Control" of a Tackle is large but relatively simple. The Space Control for a Guard is condensed and dynamically in flux on both sides of him. Could Lugg be poor-sighted in one direction? One of my brothers was (made up for it by being a Q Nelson style blaster who knocked the opponent on his ass a good bit of the time.) Is Lugg too one-sided in his agility? Can he not suddenly turn one of the ways to shift to a blitz? I guess that's possible, just haven't heard anything specific enough to rise above dataless speculation.

It's VERY difficult for me to envision a 2022 ND OLine starting line-up without Josh Lugg at guard. AND if that is true, then the discussion in this thread is exactly on point for the other two spots. If All-American Center Patterson is at Center, then Correll might not be in the line-up. And Kristovic might instead ... or Coach finds another guy --- he certainly has a lot to choose from. And, I also find it hard to believe that we won't have a DAMM good Five Fingers of Doom, regardless of who Coach puts out there (assuming Alt, Fisher, and Patterson are three of them --- that's THREE All-American quality linemen folks.)

One further thing about Tackle vs Guard: If you get beat at Tackle, you usually know immediately why. That gives some strange comfort if you believe in yourself. If you get beat at Guard, the complexity of what just happened may remain confusing. And leave you "discomforted" to put it in civilized terms. If any of that is the case with Lugg, then he's overthinking things and needs to just buckle-up for the next play, trust his teammates and bury at least one opponent on that play. The opponents can't trick you multiple times in a row even with a great DC, and your team will navigate its share.

The only other thing that I can think of is similar: If you overthink things you don't spontaneously react as quickly. Maybe Josh is too cerebral and hesitates in the midst of chaos just a blink. Hope that's not true. Picture the common well-disguised DT/DE arc game which drags the guard toward the OT and suddenly the DE loops around into the gap. Need not to stop to blink on things like that. But snaps often cure most of that via anticipation of things already seen. All of that reasoning gives me hope that Lugg is OK.

Thank you! I tend to worry about back injuries, so my hopes aren't as high for Lugg.

My guess for starting lineup at OSU is this (with Spindler taking over one of the OG spots by the bye):

LT: Alt
LG: Patterson
C: Correll
RG: Kristofic/Lugg
RT: Fisher

I think HH does not hesitate to go with young talent over experience (Spindler at RG) when the talent gap is wide, but OSU might be too much for a first time starter.

But I guess the more obvious is:
LT: Alt
LG: Kristofic
C: Patterson
RG: Lugg
RT: Fisher
 

Old Man Mike

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The crystal ball is intractably foggy, but we're good with any of those line-ups.
Coach H will WILL them to be.
 

INLaw

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Thank you! I tend to worry about back injuries, so my hopes aren't as high for Lugg.

My guess for starting lineup at OSU is this (with Spindler taking over one of the OG spots by the bye):

LT: Alt
LG: Patterson
C: Correll
RG: Kristofic/Lugg
RT: Fisher

I think HH does not hesitate to go with young talent over experience (Spindler at RG) when the talent gap is wide, but OSU might be too much for a first time starter.

But I guess the more obvious is:
LT: Alt
LG: Kristofic
C: Patterson
RG: Lugg
RT: Fisher
I like Lugg next to fisher who has played a total of one game and a series or two in the opener. Not only is Lugg a veteran but he played RT all last year. What could be more valuable to maximize Fisher than having damn near a GA coach lining up next to him.
 

ulukinatme

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I like Lugg next to fisher who has played a total of one game and a series or two in the opener. Not only is Lugg a veteran but he played RT all last year. What could be more valuable to maximize Fisher than having damn near a GA coach lining up next to him.
Normally I'd say that would be a boon, but I don't think Big Fish needs him. In that one game he was the highest graded OL, the kid is a phenom. If Kristofic performs better than Lugg I say put him in.
 

du Lac

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Just rated the #1 center in America. Come a long ways from a lowly rivals ranking.
 

ulukinatme

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I've seen a lot of people online complaining about Patterson moving to G, but it's honestly gotta be the best move for his future. He's proven he can handle Center and there's no question about his ability there, if he knocks it out of the park as a G too it only increases his usefulness to whoever drafts him.
 

FightingIrishLover7

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I've seen a lot of people online complaining about Patterson moving to G, but it's honestly gotta be the best move for his future. He's proven he can handle Center and there's no question about his ability there, if he knocks it out of the park as a G too it only increases his usefulness to whoever drafts him.
More money
More position flexibility
Easy sell for Harry imo
 

EvilleIrish

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Would you go ahead and sit him the next two weeks to make sure he’s completely healthy?
 
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