Am I the only one that sees Tiller as more of a DE than a tackle?
Especially in the 3-4 D they seem to be playing more of since the exit of BVG!Am I the only one that sees Tiller as more of a DE than a tackle?
I hadn't thought of this but man.....you might be onto something. Some speed training in the off season then slide him over to fill Isaac's spot next year? Sounds intriguing but I don't know that we'd have anyone capable of filling Jerry's snaps at DT in a quality fashion unless maybe Ewell comes in HOT. I'm not saying you were implying this move, Piombino, I'm just speaking hypothetically.
Am I the only one that sees Tiller as more of a DE than a tackle?
Tillery looks good as a 5T (DE) in a 3-4. Put Hayes on the other side. With Cage in the middle, I like that group for next year. Bonner becomes the first off the bench 5T. We're goin to need Ewell, Mokwuah, or even MDT to step up as a second NT, as Cage hasn't shown he's been able to play at a high level for long stretches.
Then hope guys like Elijah Taylor give us some quality snaps and make an impact in the 2 deep. This will be a big offseason for the ND DL and Gilmore.
He's not been playing well.
Good, bad,.... the kid is a true sophomore... I think he has done better than average, especially for his age.
Maybe not lighting the world on fire, and maybe more of an OL than a DL. But frankly we need him more on defense, and he's been playing fine the last few weeks. Jerry ought keep his likes to himself, but he's not really the problem.
I think Jerry has improved in his play as the season has gone on, played very well against NC St, and will continue to improve over the course of his career. His twitter action was a stupid mistake, no argument there, but certainly not the end of the world and at the end of bis career here should be no more than a very minor blemish. I don't like what he did but I am way more upset about BK creating a dumpster fire of a program than what Tillery did on twitter.
Terry Jillery has been improving. Not sure if the light finally went on or what, but he has been raising his level of play.
Don't follow him on Twitter. What did he say?
I'm feeling Jillery as the SDE in a 3-4, Hayes at WDE and Cage in NT. Bonner first man in at SDE. Kareem first man in at WDE. I think Taylor ends up moving to NT and battle between him and Pete for second spot.
The LB's have me really excited though.
Coney and Morgan inside. Daelin Hayes at rush OLB. Martini and Bilal splitting reps at Sam OLB.
Not sure where Trumbetti fits in. Actually had an OK day against a crap Miami line.
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I love this idea. I also bet big Darnell Ewell could get in there and help us at one of the DL spots. Guy is seriously built like an NFL DT.
I think he too looks best as 5-tech, not that he couldn't be a good DT. He's looks great at stacking and then shedding the O-line. It's starting to increasingly look like we have better personnel for a 3-4 at least at D-line, especially considering we haven't had great play at 3-tech since Day left.
Question is if we have the burst for blitzing LBs to make the 3-4 work.
I'm not sure we have the strength at NT to make it work either. NT and ILB are the positions you absolutely have to be lights out at in the 3-4 to make it work. We discussed this at length a few years ago when we were failing to bring in any NTs and ILBs to replace what we were losing. I'm sure Diaco saw the writing on the wall then, which is why he went ahead and took the crummy Connecticut job coming off a recent Broyles award...he probably could have gotten a slightly better job had the recruiting been better prior to his exit. We were so successful with the 3-4 in 2012 because Nix did a great job tying up blockers, and the Manti + Fox/Carlo combo was effective. I think Nyles + Martini/(Insert whoever you like here) could be effective in the middle, but I'm not sure Cage can consistently eat up multiple blockers in the middle like a Nix. Tillery would be more suited as DE in that formation. Mokwuah probably has the size, but he's been in mostly as a reserve I think and probably wouldn't be effective. We have plenty of guys that could probably transition to the 3-4 DE, but not a lot of true 3-4 NTs that have the motor and skill to get the job done...especially if a guy like Cage is injured.
Well, we did get to the NC in 2012 on the back of a record-setting D. Who would have been the back-up in 2012 if Nix had been injured?
My point is that maybe we could just be an average 3-4 defense as we make the transition...
I'm not sure we have the strength at NT to make it work either. NT and ILB are the positions you absolutely have to be lights out at in the 3-4 to make it work. We discussed this at length a few years ago when we were failing to bring in any NTs and ILBs to replace what we were losing. I'm sure Diaco saw the writing on the wall then, which is why he went ahead and took the crummy Connecticut job coming off a recent Broyles award...he probably could have gotten a slightly better job had the recruiting been better prior to his exit. We were so successful with the 3-4 in 2012 because Nix did a great job tying up blockers, and the Manti + Fox/Carlo combo was effective. I think Nyles + Martini/(Insert whoever you like here) could be effective in the middle, but I'm not sure Cage can consistently eat up multiple blockers in the middle like a Nix. Tillery would be more suited as DE in that formation. Mokwuah probably has the size, but he's been in mostly as a reserve I think and probably wouldn't be effective. We have plenty of guys that could probably transition to the 3-4 DE, but not a lot of true 3-4 NTs that have the motor and skill to get the job done...especially if a guy like Cage is injured.
Maybe you don't need a stud NT in a 3-4, but regardless it's the most important position in that formation next to the ILB. The fact also remains that we struck out on almost all the NTs we tried to recruit after Nix, we would have been in a really bad position defensively (And we basically were for a bit burning redshirts) had we not picked up Cage and a few others late when Diaco bolted. We needed to move to a 4-3 out of necessity, kids didn't want to come here to play a base 3-4. Jones can handle it for sure, he's one of the few big boys we did get, but lets not pretend that Miami had some killer OL. There's a reason Jones had a field day Saturday. Credit him for stepping up and putting on a career performance, but that wasn't Alabama's OL he was facing. I want to say it was just 3 or 4 years ago that Miami was putting up flyers around campus asking for ANYONE to try out on OL as walk ons. Look at all the sacks against the QB in the last 4 games, their line isn't that impressive.
At the end of the day, who are we putting in at NT if Jones goes down again, or even for next year? I'm not sure Cage can consistently eat up multiple blockers over an entire game, certainly for part of a game. Do you put Tillery in there? I remember him gobbling up the Fullback against Navy last year in that formation I think (Before he got dinged up and came out for a bit), but against a bigger team? He's been kind of up and down this year as it is as a 4-3 DT, might be a lot to expect of him to eat multiple blockers over a whole game.
Regardless, whoever plays up front in a 3-4 has to be able to draw double teams consistently to make a 3-4 work. If linemen are able to get to the 2nd level and take on the linebackers then they're not free to make plays. Alabama was consistently getting to the second level on us in the bowl game, and look what happened. That's why the NT position is so important, and it's physically demanding. Jones can do it, but after him it gets sketchy and I think it's a bad idea going forward to 2017 and beyond if we don't have the right personnel to pull it off.
Unless something changes in recruiting, I think it's a bad idea to try and transition back to a base 3-4. We can roll it out from time to time as it suits the opposition, but look how we've struggled to recruit at certain positions on defense. We got lucky with Nix, and we struck out with pretty much every good NT we aimed for after that. We've struggled to bring in consistent, good DL talent. It's part of the reason our pass rush is mediocre right now. We need to stick with recruiting for a base 4-3 because it's far easier to sell high school kids in an attacking 4-3 front than trying to lure an 18 year old who wants to eat up blockers /w little to no stats to show for it for 4 years. Plus there really aren't that many high schoolers that have the motor and size to produce as an NT in a 3-4. Those kids typically wind up at an Alabama...or Kentucky if you're a hometown boy like Elam was a few years back. Big, smart NTs are few and far between.
As far as the backup NT in 2012, pretty sure it was Schwenke, but he may have been injured at times that year too. The only other big boys I can think of were Springman and Utupo. We were pretty dang lucky that Nix didn't have injury issues until 2013.
No, that is not a fact. We recruited Jarron Jones who was an Army All American and expected NT. I would agree that our depth there isn't ideal, as we haven't been recruiting to that specific model for a few cycles now. That shouldn't be surprising, BVG hasn't even tried to recruit one in 3 cycles. However, that is vastly different than, "ND can't recruit NT's, therefore we can't run a 3-4."
With that said, I'd bet that we get a solid output from Cage/Mokwuah/Ewell at the NT position should we choose to make that move. FWIW, Ewell is a perfect collegiate NT.
You mean like Stephon Tuitt who almost broke the ND sack record playing in a 3-4.
The nose tackle and the inside linebackers, those are three guys that are very important. But when you go through it, the nose tackle is probably the single-most important guy. ”
— Joe Collier, Denver Broncos assistant (1969–1988), architect of the "Orange Crush Defense".[6]
The defensive line is made up of a nose tackle (NT) and two defensive ends (DEs). Linemen in 3–4 schemes tend to be larger than their 4–3 counterparts to take up more space and guard more territory along the defensive front. As a consequence, many 3–4 defensive linemen begin their NFL careers as 4-3 defensive tackles, as younger players typically do not possess the size, weight, and strength to play on a 3-4 defensive front. They must be strong at the point of attack and are aligned in most cases head-up on an offensive tackle. First and foremost, they must control run gaps. Size and strength become more of a factor for linemen in 3–4 defenses than in 4–3 defenses because they move primarily within the confines of line play and seldom are in space using athletic ability. Ideally 3–4 DEs should weigh 290–315 pounds (132–143 kg) and be able to beat double teams by getting a push.[7] Albert Breer noted, "In general, ideal front-seven players in the 3–4 are bigger and need to take on and defeat blocks more often in the running game."[8]
The 3–4 nose tackle is considered the most physically demanding position in football.[9] His primary responsibility is to control the "A" gaps, the two openings between the center and guards, and not get pushed back into his linebackers.[10] If a running play comes through one of those gaps, he must make the tackle or control what is called the "jump-through"—the guard or center who is trying to get out to the linebackers. The ideal nose tackle has to be much bigger than 4–3 DTs, weighing around 335 pounds or more. An AFC Personnel director used Ted Washington as an example of an ideal nose tackle: "In his prime, Ted Washington was the ideal guy. He was huge, had long arms, and you couldn't budge him. He could hold off a 320-pound lineman with one hand and make the tackle with the other."[
him retweeting about getting Les Miles to ND
No, that is not a fact. We recruited Jarron Jones who was an Army All American and expected NT. I would agree that our depth there isn't ideal, as we haven't been recruiting to that specific model for a few cycles now. That shouldn't be surprising, BVG hasn't even tried to recruit one in 3 cycles. However, that is vastly different than, "ND can't recruit NT's, therefore we can't run a 3-4."
With that said, I'd bet that we get a solid output from Cage/Mokwuah/Ewell at the NT position should we choose to make that move. FWIW, Ewell is a perfect collegiate NT.
FWIW, Ewell is a perfect collegiate NT.
Im gonna have to beep you there.
NTs are typically overweight boulders that lack mobility that are nearly immovable. Ewell is not this. Ewell is a machine. ND would be wasting their best true DT in years by parking him in the middle and asking him to just tie up two linemen so the LB behind him can be on the front page.
Plus, give him a great excuse to decommit. I would imagine every 4-3 DC around would be burning his phone up saying what a waste of his talents would be at NT.
Speaking of, didnt that coach from FL do the same exact thing to ND during Weis' era in regards to getting him to either decommit or switch his intent to FL from ND?
The reason teams run the 3-4 more in college, is due to the amount of kids with LB size versus kids with NFL size that can play the D-line. Getting a NT that can tie up multiple linemen isn't a requirement, but it pays big dividends when you have one. I've heard this a number of times from coaches.
A drawback of the 3–4 is that without a fourth lineman to take on the offensive blockers and close the running lanes, both the defensive linemen and the linebackers can be overwhelmed by blocking schemes in the running game. To be effective, 3–4 linebackers need their defensive line to routinely tie up a minimum of four (preferably all five) offensive linemen, freeing them to make tackles.
I still think Taylor could be a NT. Undersized, yes, but very powerful.
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Im gonna have to beep you there.
NTs are typically overweight boulders that lack mobility that are nearly immovable. Ewell is not this. Ewell is a machine. ND would be wasting their best true DT in years by parking him in the middle and asking him to just tie up two linemen so the LB behind him can be on the front page.
Plus, give him a great excuse to decommit. I would imagine every 4-3 DC around would be burning his phone up saying what a waste of his talents would be at NT.
Speaking of, didnt that coach from FL do the same exact thing to ND during Weis' era in regards to getting him to either decommit or switch his intent to FL from ND?