13 Shot In Chicago Park

wizards8507

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reality is, that is reserved for "angry white guys" in the pan handle of Idaho and remote parts of Montana. It would be too awkward for the press and sheeple to deal with the expansion of the terminology to its full meaning. But I agree with the categorization of what gang bangers are doing...

Frankly I don't care what label they put on these guys...and as far as I'm concerned they've declared war on humanity...so I'm just fine with lifetime confinement on the "Rock" or Gitmo...wanna gang bang?...cool, then face military special forces responses, with military justice. See if that sh!t doesn't calm it right down...

First paragraph - agree 100%

Second paragraph - not so much. The problem with giving the government that kind of power is that eventually a guy you don't like will be the one weilding it. So-called "conservatives" loved the Patriot Act but then freaked the hell out over the NSA surveilance programs. Liberals want to bomb the hell out of Syria but were outraged when Bush went to war without congressional approval. I don't want the military marching on American citizens now matter how guilty they are, because someday I might be the one deemed "guilty" for my affiliation with a certain group or political philosophy. We could go a long way by enforcing the laws that are already on the books and closing some of the loopholes that allow defense attorneys to let the guilty run free on technicalities.
 

Irish#1

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In regard to the baby in the park at 10. I can't speak for the area where this happened as I know nothing about it. But I can speak as a parent who has a fussy kid and the only thing that calms it down is a walk, at any hour, to get it to rest.

I've taken one of my kids on a drive around the city at 3AM before because he just wouldn't settle down and he enjoyed the car rides. You do what it takes when you are sleep deprived.

Obviously not speaking on behalf of these parents but I can see it.

Plus Moar Guns!

I get that, but when you're in a bad neighborhood, taking the kids out at night is very risky, especially when the guy says they've been coming around regularly shooting up the area.
 

phgreek

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The problem is these gangs are not as organized as they used to be. CPD went and took down the majority of these gang leaders, and without the structural organization these young kids act crazy. Gang life in Chicago isn’t what you may think it is, there are so many of these things called "clicks" as opposed to gangs. There is a pod cast on NPR about Harper High School and it talks about this new "gang life". Its interesting and a good listen. All in all it is sad and drugs and money over ride everything!

I don't doubt this is the case...and I acknowledge the decentralization causes a great deal of complexity...

but I think what any subdivision of "gangs" share is an astonishingly absent capacity for human empathy for anything outside their "endeavors". To me it makes them less than human...and by any measure effectively sociopathic...so we have literally thousands of whack jobs running around Chicago shooting it up...and care nothing for those innocents they kill and mame...so I say fvck them....I won't care about their Civil Liberties then.

I categorize them as I do terrorists.

In terms of a response...rapid response teams stationed throughout Chicago manned by active duty special forces units. The minute something happens they descend upon it...investigate, and track down those involved....and when caught, those people are treated as enemy combatants...tried in a military court.

I suspect that process would take about a year, and I think we'd see things calm down such that the police could handle it again...
 

wizards8507

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I don't doubt this is the case...and I acknowledge the decentralization causes a great deal of complexity...

but I think what any subdivision of "gangs" share is an astonishingly absent capacity for human empathy for anything outside their "endeavors". To me it makes them less than human...and by any measure effectively sociopathic...so we have literally thousands of whack jobs running around Chicago shooting it up...and care nothing for those innocents they kill and mame...so I say fvck them....I won't care about their Civil Liberties then.

I categorize them as I do terrorists.

In terms of a response...rapid response teams stationed throughout Chicago manned by active duty special forces units. The minute something happens they descend upon it...investigate, and track down those involved....and when caught, those people are treated as enemy combatants...tried in a military court.

I suspect that process would take about a year, and I think we'd see things calm down such that the police could handle it again...

I take it from your tone that you're a conservative? I am as well, but I strongly disagree. If you activate police power like that, would you really put it past the far left to use those tactics on tea party groups and others? Regardless of what side you're on, due process MUST be preserved for American citizens.
 

Booslum31

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It looks like some folks believe that the violence in Chicago is getting trumped up by the media. I don't think the matter is getting enough attention from the media. If you woke up from a 20 year coma a few months back you would think our country had a runaway vigilante problem where half-white guys were hunting down black guys. Now THAT is media attention. Yes media outlets are looking for ratings but I believe their sole purpose now has become about furthering their political agenda. Giving the violence in Chicago (or any major city) the appropriate amount of news coverage does not fit that agenda...period. I also think the role that drugs/cartels play in these gang shootings cannot be understated. This incident seemed like they were shooting randomly into the park but I'm thinking there was probably a real target or two in the park...and they weren't just out buying some Skittles. This is a classic example of a skirmish over who gets to sell the drugs in the park...your thugs or our thugs. No. Not nearly enough media attention or public outcry...that's reserved for politically agenda-forwarding events.
 

wizards8507

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It looks like some folks believe that the violence in Chicago is getting trumped up by the media. I don't think the matter is getting enough attention from the media. If you woke up from a 20 year coma a few months back you would think our country had a runaway vigilante problem where half-white guys were hunting down black guys. Now THAT is media attention. Yes media outlets are looking for ratings but I believe their sole purpose now has become about furthering their political agenda. Giving the violence in Chicago (or any major city) the appropriate amount of news coverage does not fit that agenda...period. I also think the role that drugs/cartels play in these gang shootings cannot be understated. This incident seemed like they were shooting randomly into the park but I'm thinking there was probably a real target or two in the park...and they weren't just out buying some Skittles. This is a classic example of a skirmish over who gets to sell the drugs in the park...your thugs or our thugs. No. Not nearly enough media attention or public outcry...that's reserved for politically agenda-forwarding events.

Racist.
 

phgreek

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First paragraph - agree 100%

Second paragraph - not so much. The problem with giving the government that kind of power is that eventually a guy you don't like will be the one weilding it. So-called "conservatives" loved the Patriot Act but then freaked the hell out over the NSA surveilance programs. Liberals want to bomb the hell out of Syria but were outraged when Bush went to war without congressional approval. I don't want the military marching on American citizens now matter how guilty they are, because someday I might be the one deemed "guilty" for my affiliation with a certain group or political philosophy. We could go a long way by enforcing the laws that are already on the books and closing some of the loopholes that allow defense attorneys to let the guilty run free on technicalities.

I totally see what you are saying... Military used upon its own people is a last resort...and for reasons you say, it is a precedent that is scary....especially based on what we've seen out of NSA aaaand the IRS. But, as far as Chicago, I don't think non-force and education/communication is an option anymore. I don't think the Police can deal with it. Chicago needs to reclaim her streets, and if Chicago says send us the Military, I'd support it.
 

adsnorri

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You're right, you don't seem to know much about this subject.

1) Foreigners? No, it's primarily black on black crime. Unless we're getting "African-Americans" from Mexico and "Salvador," your claim is complete horsesh*t.
Slow down boss...usually when someone says they don't know much about the subject, it isn't a time to call them horeshit. The subject I wasn't very in tune with was what rack em was saying. Not the foreign gangs spreading their territory. I know about black on black crime but from a gang standpoint and big city drug pushing...big drugs, the crime is derived from foreign gangs like I mentioned as a whole. May sound like some bullshit to you but take a look at this article that someone else posted above about the subject: Heroin Pushed on Chicago by Cartel Fueling Gang Murders - Bloomberg

2) In what world is Hyde Park a bad neighborhood???? There have been 2 murders in Hyde Park over the past 52 weeks. The same neighborhood that the University of Chicago, University of Chicago Lab School, 4 seminaries, 4-5 museums and a number of prominent Chicagoans call home.
Maybe I was in a bad part of Hyde Park but it clearly was not an area that you want to walk. lol Almost got jumped in less than 5 minutes of walking to the store becuase they thought I looked like a cop. It was 5-6 young kids shooting dice on the street corner while police rolled by. So, yea not a place to hang out. lol

3) Obummer technically lived in Kenwood, just one block from Hyde Park, where violent crime is even lower. Only one murder in the past year. The victim? Hadiya Pendleton, the girl whose name Obama disingenuously and sickeningly invoked to push his gun control agenda. I guarantee you Obummer wouldn't have cared about her, and waxed poetic about her love of "Fig Newtons and lip gloss," if she were murdered 2 blocks north, outside of Kenwood.
One block away from a tough neighborhood is relevant. Why are we picking apples on how close he was to Hyde Park anyway? It's not like he walked the streets, so who gives a ****. I know the Chicago people love Obama and he came from a few tough times, not as much as probably put on but who hasn't. Not sure how this relates to the shooting in the park though.

BGIF- thanks for clearing up that the kid was actually in the park. Makes a difference but still doesn't change my point. Like others have mentioned, many people will walk with their kids, even late at night. Regardless of how tough the area is because it is their home.

The conversation about the feds trying to regulate the gangs, I think is a little off. I think they did a decent job on some of the bigger black gangs back in the day but have not done the same with the real gangs(cartels) of today. Just my opinion but black on black crime is due to the cartels coming in and supplying some of the local gangs with the drugs to sell and they are killing each other for more money. However, the foreign gangs are starting to put troops on the ground in these cities so there is no middle man in the transaction per se. I think these cartels are the ones that need to be stopped because it has gotten bad near the borders and is working it's way inbound. MONEY is the root of all evil!

Just my 2 cents obviously.
 

phgreek

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I take it from your tone that you're a conservative? I am as well, but I strongly disagree. If you activate police power like that, would you really put it past the far left to use those tactics on tea party groups and others? Regardless of what side you're on, due process MUST be preserved for American citizens.

I would agree 99% of the time...but I think there comes a time when things get so out of control you can't expect a municipal police force to get it back. I realize they have cool toys liked armored cars now...but they can't or won't engage in actively hunting these guys...I see your points...I echo your concerns...but when do we as a country say...hey, those of you in Chicago...we hear ya, even when their most notable son won't.
 
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So many things to say so little time...

You can pretty much kiss the "kill all gang members/drug dealers and problem solved" idea goodbye.

That's like saying I'm going to kill the cashier at my local McDonalds and thatta be severe blow to the McDeez corporation.

We all know where drugs come from yet we never seem able to stop the flow..................
 

Wild Bill

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The coward politicians and most citizens of this city refuse to hear arguments in support of stop and frisk. It is simply dismissed as racial profiling. That said, you think the feds will simply step in and "target" these "groups"?

This problem will be solved when the law abiding citizens of these neighborhoods take a stand. They are the real victims. The politicians elected in these jurisdictions can care less about their constituency. If they cared, they'd at least look for solutions, as opposed to dismissing ideas as "racist". What do I know, though. My approach is probably just an "upper middle-class, elitist white boy solution to a problem I know nothing about."
 

phgreek

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So many things to say so little time...

You can pretty much kiss the "kill all gang members/drug dealers and problem solved" idea goodbye.

That's like saying I'm going to kill the cashier at my local McDonalds and thatta be severe blow to the McDeez corporation.

We all know where drugs come from yet we never seem able to stop the flow..................

I don't see it that way...If drugs are the only problem...well...Drugs are EVERYWHERE. So what makes Chicago such a mess in terms of how the drug trade is conducted day to day...
 

Emcee77

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It looks like some folks believe that the violence in Chicago is getting trumped up by the media. I don't think the matter is getting enough attention from the media. If you woke up from a 20 year coma a few months back you would think our country had a runaway vigilante problem where half-white guys were hunting down black guys. Now THAT is media attention. Yes media outlets are looking for ratings but I believe their sole purpose now has become about furthering their political agenda. Giving the violence in Chicago (or any major city) the appropriate amount of news coverage does not fit that agenda...period. I also think the role that drugs/cartels play in these gang shootings cannot be understated. This incident seemed like they were shooting randomly into the park but I'm thinking there was probably a real target or two in the park...and they weren't just out buying some Skittles. This is a classic example of a skirmish over who gets to sell the drugs in the park...your thugs or our thugs. No. Not nearly enough media attention or public outcry...that's reserved for politically agenda-forwarding events.

I agree with the spirit of this to the extent you are saying that urban violence generally doesn't get enough media attention in any media market. What concerns me, and a lot of Chicagoans, is that the national news media is focusing on crime in Chicago right now for some reason, and that creates the illusion that the crime problem in Chicago is worse than in other cities. I'm not sure that's true ... according to the Sun-Times article I posted earlier in this thread, Philly, Atlanta, Baltimore, St. Louis and other U.S. cities actually have higher crime rates. Chicago just appears to be worse because the total number of murders is higher ... because it's a bigger city. The misleading media attention allows other cities to be complacent about their own crime; they can say, "well, we're not as bad as Chicago." You might be; you just aren't getting the attention.
 
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I don't see it that way...If drugs are the only problem...well...Drugs are EVERYWHERE. So what makes Chicago such a mess in terms of how the drug trade is conducted day to day...

I know very little about how the Chicago drug trade works but I do know a bit about how Los Angeles/Southern California works and maybe the drug trade in general.

In general, lots of murders means people are fighting over control. A prime example of that is Mexico; Chicago doesn't strike me as something similar to Mexico.
 

Booslum31

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I agree with the spirit of this to the extent you are saying that urban violence generally doesn't get enough media attention in any media market. What concerns me, and a lot of Chicagoans, is that the national news media is focusing on crime in Chicago right now for some reason, and that creates the illusion that the crime problem in Chicago is worse than in other cities. I'm not sure that's true ... according to the Sun-Times article I posted earlier in this thread, Philly, Atlanta, Baltimore, St. Louis and other U.S. cities actually have higher crime rates. Chicago just appears to be worse because the total number of murders is higher ... because it's a bigger city. The misleading media attention allows other cities to be complacent about their own crime; they can say, "well, we're not as bad as Chicago." You might be; you just aren't getting the attention.

Apologies...This is a problem in all major cities...no city gets a pass. This is a national issue. I only cite Chicago because of today's news. Tomorrow it will be another city.
 

Golden_Domer

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the crime is derived from foreign gangs like I mentioned as a whole.

No, this is what you said--
They also are not your home grown local gangs anymore as much as foreigners(salvador, Mexico, etc.) and they have a purpose for banging on the street corner and shooting at crowds in parks.

This makes it sound like foreigners are the ones pulling the trigger, which is what I was calling complete b.s. If you were just stating that cartels are the driving force behind black on black crime, I would ask that you provide statistics before making a broad claim like that. Ultimately the people pulling the trigger are responsible. Whether and to what extent foreigners are driving these idiots to randomly shoot one another is at best one factor among many.

Maybe I was in a bad part of Hyde Park but it clearly was not an area that you want to walk. lol Almost got jumped in less than 5 minutes of walking to the store becuase they thought I looked like a cop. It was 5-6 young kids shooting dice on the street corner while police rolled by. So, yea not a place to hang out. lol

Sounds like a real story that happened once; groups of young kids jump cops all the time around here. Hyde Park is one of the most over-policed neighborhoods in Chicago. I've spent a lot of time there both on and off the University of Chicago campus. It is a completely safe place to work/go to school/raise a family. Any anecdotal evidence to the contrary is, at best, irrelevant.

One block away from a tough neighborhood is relevant. Why are we picking apples on how close he was to Hyde Park anyway?

Again, not a tough neighborhood. I'm not picking apples. I'm stating as fact that Kenwood and Hyde Park aren't tough neighborhoods.

It's not like he walked the streets, so who gives a ****. I know the Chicago people love Obama and he came from a few tough times, not as much as probably put on but who hasn't. Not sure how this relates to the shooting in the park though.

I agree, who gives a sh*t that Obama is from here? You're the one who brought up Obama living here as some sort of proof that he has any idea what he's talking about.

Rack em- I'd love to hear your take on why he doesn't know **** about the city? I don't know much about the subject. My friend used to live a few doors down from his residence. It is literally a block from Hyde Park. You don't want to be in Hyde Park for too long, especially at night.

I surely don't give a crap that he decided to settle down here and make Chicago his home, I just wish the media and Obama himself would stop talking about how he's from here when the Chicago violence issue gets brought up, as if that fact should make us care more about curbing the violence. Even in that article you linked, there's a portion of the article titled "Obama Link" where it talks about his time here as a community organizer. Who cares?
 

irishff1014

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Part of the problem is people just don't care anymore. That doesn't just go for Chicago either. I work for a 911 dispatch center in Salisbury MD and i am telling you that the calls we get are just outrageous. From some of that stats i have scene it was the 12th most dangerous city and doesn't have a population of 75,000. Most of our Murders end up being domestic violence related or drug related. And we just had a murder suicide that resulted into 2 deaths and one that will never live a normal life again. I just wish people would go go back to caring about one another. It is a shame so many families are heart broken because this violence.
 

ozzman

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I know very little about how the Chicago drug trade works but I do know a bit about how Los Angeles/Southern California works and maybe the drug trade in general.

In general, lots of murders means people are fighting over control. A prime example of that is Mexico; Chicago doesn't strike me as something similar to Mexico.

read the link I posted earlier. It isn't like Mexico per se, but Mexico is driving it all.

Heroin Pushed on Chicago by Cartel Fueling Gang Murders - Bloomberg
 

wizards8507

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Please tell me that your italics indicate you were kidding. I take being called that very seriously.

I wasn't "kidding" in the sense that I was going for a chuckle, but I WAS being sarcastic. Sadly, there are those who WOULD accuse you of racism for articulating what you did. I agree with your original post wholeheartedly.

Too much anger.

Yes.

Too little respect for human life.

Yes.

Too many guns.

No. Sadly, stricter gun laws would disarm everyone EXCEPT the thugs and gang bangers, who (per the anger and lack or respect for human life you mentioned above) wouldn't obey those laws.
 

WaveDomer

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Legalize recreational drugs. Take away the competition for territory and all that. Basically, starve out these motherf***s who control their competition through murder. It's ridiculous at this point, what is happening in America and in Mexico because of an illegal market.
 

wizards8507

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Legalize recreational drugs. Take away the competition for territory and all that. Basically, starve out these motherf***s who control their competition through murder. It's ridiculous at this point, what is happening in America and in Mexico because of an illegal market.

Why not legalize all drugs? (I'm being serious). Why shouldn't a grown adult be allowed to poison him- or herself? Obviously, he or she would have to be held fully accountable for any actions performed while under the influence. We should protect the innocent from drug abusers but I'm sick of the nanny trying to protect drug abusers from themselves.

I'd give my left foot if there's a single person in the country saying "I would really love to try cocaine but damn if it isn't illegal." Anyone who wants to do hard drugs already is, so legalization would not result in any spike in use. Legalize it all.

You're exactly right economically speaking as well. You notice the drug cartels don't deal with meth. That's because the ingredients for meth are readily available and it can be made domestically so meth stays too cheap for them to make much profit. Shift the supply curve to the right right and the equilibrium price per unit plummets. If it's not profitable, producers exit the market.
 

BGIF

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I would agree 99% of the time...but I think there comes a time when things get so out of control you can't expect a municipal police force to get it back. I realize they have cool toys liked armored cars now...but they can't or won't engage in actively hunting these guys...I see your points...I echo your concerns...but when do we as a country say...hey, those of you in Chicago...we hear ya, even when their most notable son won't.

NO! NO! NO!

You want Blackhawk Down.

Military Rapid Response Teams with Attack Helicopters and no rules of engagement.

Automatic weapons. Grenade launchers. Precision Air Strikes for reinforced bunkers, er, crack houses.

Let's turn the South Side into Kabul West. Nope can't do that. There are Rules of Engagement in Afghanistan.


Actually you can't even send in Military Police. The Posse Comitatus Act forbids the federal military from acting as a police force to augment local law enforcement.

Read it at Wiki.

Also see Sampson, Alabama 2009. In a town of about 2,000 people a man murdered his mother and three dogs. Then he drove to his uncle's house and killed him and two cousins. Then he drove to grandma's house and killed her. Then he drove around killing passing motorists and shooting up stores. The sheriff got reports of multiple killings in different parts of town. He called nearby Ft. Rucker and requested assistant. The Army aware of Posse Comitatus sent over 2 dozen MPs solely to direct traffic and secure the crime scenes while the Sherrif and deputies went after the killer.

The Leo's got'em. Actually he committed suicide.

And the Army reprimanded the officer who authorized those MPs to assist the Sherrif in violation of Federal Law, Posse Comitatus.

The sheriff acted expediently but he should have called the Governor who could have used the National Guard. The governor could have also called POTUS requesting federal assistance. It would not have come.


Chicago has a crime problem as do most major cities. They have to deal with their problem without the U.S. Armed Forces.

This is a city, county,
 
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Why not legalize all drugs? (I'm being serious). Why shouldn't a grown adult be allowed to poison him- or herself? Obviously, he or she would have to be held fully accountable for any actions performed while under the influence. We should protect the innocent from drug abusers but I'm sick of the nanny trying to protect drug abusers from themselves.

I'd give my left foot if there's a single person in the country saying "I would really love to try cocaine but damn if it isn't illegal." Anyone who wants to do hard drugs already is, so legalization would not result in any spike in use. Legalize it all.

You're exactly right economically speaking as well. You notice the drug cartels don't deal with meth. That's because the ingredients for meth are readily available and it can be made domestically so meth stays too cheap for them to make much profit. Shift the supply curve to the right right and the equilibrium price per unit plummets. If it's not profitable, producers exit the market.

Everything sounds good except the bolded part. Cartels are in the meth business.
 

wizards8507

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WaveDomer

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I was too general. They're in the business but it's not nearly as profitable as opiates, and every time the US cracks down they take a bigger piece. Demand isn't changing so all they're doing is shuffling supply.

As U.S. Cracks Down on Meth Makers, Mexican Drug Cartels Fill Void | The Partnership at Drugfree.org

I think it's profitable enough. Here is a picture from a drug raid in Mexico of a cartel supplier. From 2007. $207 million.
cash.jpg
 

Polish Leppy 22

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Too many guns. Too much anger. Too little respect for human life.

Let's say for argument's sake that guns nationwide are illegal. Would those who want to commit murder just give up because there are no guns? Or would they use alternate weapons? Guys like Kaczinsky and McVeigh killed a lot of people without pulling a trigger. Everything they used can be bought at Lowe's or Home Depot.
 
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