BYU Postgame

InKellyWeTrust

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Real question: when was the last time we got the benefit of a late questionable call that went in our favor to win a game? There might be some blatant penalties on other teams that went our way, but when was the last time we possibly screwed another team with a late call? I can't think of one off hand.
There have been so many questionable, at best, game deciding calls/no calls in college football this year that we can't sit here with straight faces and call it coincidence. Conference affiliated referees represent entities with vested financial interest in outcomes of certain games.
 

NDWarrior

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All the BYU folks now coming out and saying, "well, there was 3.9995 seconds left so technically..." and so on.

1) It shouldn't have come down to this last drive; and 2) these punks are forgetting the timekeeper was likely elapsing seconds all along that last drive so cheating IMO. For example, I 100% checked the second to last play where Gilbert caught it heading to the sidelines for the first down and his knee absolutely hit the ground at a flat and solid 5 seconds and the timekeeper let it go down one more second to 4 seconds.
 
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Notre Dame Joe

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All the BYU folks now coming out and saying, "well, there was 3.9995 seconds left so technically..." and so on.

1) It shouldn't have come down to this last drive; and 2) these punks are forgetting the timekeeper was likely elapsing seconds all along that last drive so cheating IMO. Fro example, I 100% checked the second to last play where Gilbert caught it heading to the sidelines for the first down and his knee absolutely hit the ground at a flat and solid 5 seconds and the timekeeper let it go down one more second to 4 seconds.
The clock starts when the timekeeper starts it. Further it does not go to 3.999- at that instant. blah blah
 

BrianWalsh

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I haven't read any of this thread because I know its full of bs :ROFLMAO:

BUT (and I'm sure someone has already said this), I feel like that altitude played a huge role in Carr missing multiple throws. He usually doesn't air mail that many throws downfield.

BYU had a great gameplan that they saw in how UNC attacked on offense, and they pulled the Boise State (in the heyday) plays of trickery. This was their super bowl, and they showed up.

I'm only pissed at the fumble in the first half that was caused by a BYU player, and the missed PI and second on the clock at the end. The refs don't F that up and we're having different discussions.

Denbrock is vanilla though, and Ash wasn't ready for the big moment.

My two cents.
Speaking of BS: no, altitude does not lead to airing throws. As I posted earlier, I live at 5518 feet above sea level. Yes, things which go high in the air with high velocity carry further: a kicked football (maybe three to five yards), golf shots, baseballs hit with a bat. Things that do not carry further or somehow defy gravity: thrown baseballs and footballs, basketball shots, etc. do not go further or just fail to drop/float around as if it is outer space.
 

peadeam

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Speaking of BS: no, altitude does not lead to airing throws. As I posted earlier, I live at 5518 feet above sea level. Yes, things which go high in the air with high velocity carry further: a kicked football (maybe three to five yards), golf shots, baseballs hit with a bat. Things that do not carry further or somehow defy gravity: thrown baseballs and footballs, basketball shots, etc. do not go further or just fail to drop/float around as if it is outer space.
I’m not going to argue with you but science says you’re wrong. It’s not an excuse for poor play but on long throws the ball will absolutely travel farther.
 

peadeam

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All the BYU folks now coming out and saying, "well, there was 3.9995 seconds left so technically..." and so on.

1) It shouldn't have come down to this last drive; and 2) these punks are forgetting the timekeeper was likely elapsing seconds all along that last drive so cheating IMO. Fro example, I 100% checked the second to last play where Gilbert caught it heading to the sidelines for the first down and his knee absolutely hit the ground at a flat and solid 5 seconds and the timekeeper let it go down one more second to 4 seconds.
I’ve been arguing with asshats for two days about this. Yes the clock started late but these people are sitting there with stop watches timing it. Clock operation is one thing we’ve all agreed for 100 years that has human error involved. If they want to make that claim then we should go back to every play of the quarter and see when the clock stops after each incompletion etc. I would bet we can come up with 15 secinds
 

anarin

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Speaking of BS: no, altitude does not lead to airing throws. As I posted earlier, I live at 5518 feet above sea level. Yes, things which go high in the air with high velocity carry further: a kicked football (maybe three to five yards), golf shots, baseballs hit with a bat. Things that do not carry further or somehow defy gravity: thrown baseballs and footballs, basketball shots, etc. do not go further or just fail to drop/float around as if it is outer space.
Yeah you're wrong dude, there is less air resistance which causes a ball to travel further. Hence, me saying that the altitude may have played a factor in some of his overthrows that he usually hits.

Drake Maye on his playoff game last year.

The thinner air can make it more difficult for players to breathe and run due to less oxygen, while a football can also travel farther and faster because of reduced air resistance. Warmups will be key for Maye as he acclimates to both factors.

"I know it’s a little different, but I know a lot of teams play out there all the time. So, we’ll have an adjustment. Just for me, just feeling out warmups, maybe throw a few extra deep ones, see how it is. I think it’ll be pretty cool. Get a few extra yards on a deep ball, you can always use that.”
 

Blazers46

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Just gonna skip the Shuler plays, I mean it was all day. Besides that….

The first two TD drives I am not up in arms about. First you got Traore. Then honestly did a single person here think Bear was gonna rip a dig or TE sail route on the money? I kinda tip my cap for an opening script there and some money throws. Second drive more of it, didn’t have Bear ripping a slant against man perfect placement or hitting a backside dig under pressure on point. No idea what McKinney thinks he’s doing there notwithstanding. I watched this and mainly thought Bear was just a lot better than I ever expected we would see.

Get Traore back, get KVA healthy, get Tae back, get Moore healthy, figure out the Shuler issue and let’s ride
And if history serves, he will never be this good of a thrower ever again…
 

SportsingHard

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Speaking of BS: no, altitude does not lead to airing throws. As I posted earlier, I live at 5518 feet above sea level. Yes, things which go high in the air with high velocity carry further: a kicked football (maybe three to five yards), golf shots, baseballs hit with a bat. Things that do not carry further or somehow defy gravity: thrown baseballs and footballs, basketball shots, etc. do not go further or just fail to drop/float around as if it is outer space.
I'm at 5,430 feet, but more imporrtantly, I've watched football for decades. Do you really think it's an incredible coincidence that the mountain schools tend to recruit the best punters time and time again?

Not only does aerodynamic drag change at elevation but so does aerodynamic lift, so throwing a football will absolutely change in a couple ways.
 

peadeam

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I'm at 5,430 feet, but more imporrtantly, I've watched football for decades. Do you really think it's an incredible coincidence that the mountain schools tend to recruit the best punters time and time again?

Not only does aerodynamic drag change at elevation but so does aerodynamic lift, so throwing a football will absolutely change in a couple ways.
Exactly. There’s a reason airplanes prefer to travel at the highest altitude they can reach
 

Wild Bill

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This game felt similar to Miami last year - ND constantly chasing, continued to compete, shifted the game in its favor in the second half, but came up short. The lack of touches for Love against Miami and Walton against BYU was frustrating in both games.

Against Miami, Denbrock seemed determined to get the ball to the perimeter with receiver screens and quick outs. He rarely took chances downfield, which was frustrating. Ironically, I don't think he did enough of that against BYU. It's hard to criticize play calling from your couch without seeing the entire field, but it certainly felt like BYU was constantly bringing its linebackers up the middle. You would think that would create opportunities for quick throws and screens to the perimeter, giving receivers a chance to make plays after the catch.

Instead, it was a steady stream of difficult throws/catches with no chance to run after the catch. The yardage ended up about the same between the two teams but ND had to fight for every inch while BYU seemed to pick up easier yards.

Maybe that was on Denbrock for the playcalling or maybe on Carr for where he chose to throw the ball - I really don't know.

The most frustrating part of it all was that the offensive line was actually opening up holes in the running game. If the defense had held up at all in the first half, ND might have been able to lean on the run game instead of constantly chasing down two possessions.
 

PutuporShutup

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This game felt similar to Miami last year - ND constantly chasing, continued to compete, shifted the game in its favor in the second half, but came up short. The lack of touches for Love against Miami and Walton against BYU was frustrating in both games.

Against Miami, Denbrock seemed determined to get the ball to the perimeter with receiver screens and quick outs. He rarely took chances downfield, which was frustrating. Ironically, I don't think he did enough of that against BYU. It's hard to criticize play calling from your couch without seeing the entire field, but it certainly felt like BYU was constantly bringing its linebackers up the middle. You would think that would create opportunities for quick throws and screens to the perimeter, giving receivers a chance to make plays after the catch.

Instead, it was a steady stream of difficult throws/catches with no chance to run after the catch. The yardage ended up about the same between the two teams but ND had to fight for every inch while BYU seemed to pick up easier yards.

Maybe that was on Denbrock for the playcalling or maybe on Carr for where he chose to throw the ball - I really don't know.

The most frustrating part of it all was that the offensive line was actually opening up holes in the running game. If the defense had held up at all in the first half, ND might have been able to lean on the run game instead of constantly chasing down two possessions.
I thought denbrocks game plan was blah and player usage was terrible. With that said, if CJ carr plays average in the first half ND puts up at least 17 (TD to faison and FG at minimum to end half). Average CJ carr in the second half and ND puts up 17 as well, we hit another TD instead of a FG, but don't go for 2 poin conversion. That's a 34-28 game.

Some terrible checks by CJ, his caught tipped pass, etc resulted in a lot of points left out there. 34 should have been our minimum with the field position we had especially second half
 

BrianWalsh

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I’ve been arguing with asshats for two days about this. Yes the clock started late but these people are sitting there with stop watches timing it. Clock operation is one thing we’ve all agreed for 100 years that has human error involved. If they want to make that claim then we should go back to every play of the quarter and see when the clock stops after each incompletion etc. I would bet we can come up with 15 secinds
I'm at 5,430 feet, but more imporrtantly, I've watched football for decades. Do you really think it's an incredible coincidence that the mountain schools tend to recruit the best punters time and time again?

Not only does aerodynamic drag change at elevation but so does aerodynamic lift, so throwing a football will absolutely change in a couple ways.
As I said, things higher in the air with higher velocity (kicked footballs were one of the examples) will travel further. We're talking 3 to 5 yards. Golf balls travel maybe 10 yards further. Baseballs and footballs thrown are not high enough or fast enough to hang for any significant amount of time which really impacts anything. A fade thrown from the nine yard line is not going three feet over somebody's head because of altitude. That's pure horse crap.
 

PutuporShutup

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As disappointed as I am/was they didn't utilize walton a lot more or play premer more and throw to him with flanagan out, the WR usage is just next level.

I know we've all talked about it, but re watching the game, we had so many failed plays because the WRs were just so gassed. You can so clearly see them struggling to get off the line at times, struggling to pick themselves off the ground, etc. The only WR substitution when you ran almost 80 plays is when faison probably thought he was going to puke and pulled himself out.

There should be no less than 2 probably 3 questions about that on Monday. It was that bad. The WR usage might be worse than Ash's inability to plan and prepare the entire defense. Not that it had a bigger impact, but just from a pure coaching malpractice.

The coaching staff set up our WRs to fail late in the game. I just can't comprehend why you don't at least put out some fast WRs even as decoys to run some go's or deep slants to occupy the safety making it easier for faison, greathouse, gilbert to work. It also tires the defensive secondary more if they have to defend the deep pass a lot. We have waves of good athletic WRs not playing at all, and we probably are running so many short routes to try and not tire our 3 wrs out as much.
 

NDPhilly

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Regardless of being gassed, Gilbert and Greathouse aren’t good enough to just be out there every single play and not let the younger guys get a chance. they are both fine WRs but neither is dynamic
 

NDFAN2008

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Regardless of being gassed, Gilbert and Greathouse aren’t good enough to just be out there every single play and not let the younger guys get a chance. they are both fine WRs but neither is dynamic
100% Gilbert is good against the average teams. I want to see what Burress can do, I think you get the ball to him in space he's gonna put up 75-100 yards a game. Lets see what Burress, Fitzgerald and Frazier can do.
 

IRISHDODGER

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As disappointed as I am/was they didn't utilize walton a lot more or play premer more and throw to him with flanagan out, the WR usage is just next level.

I know we've all talked about it, but re watching the game, we had so many failed plays because the WRs were just so gassed. You can so clearly see them struggling to get off the line at times, struggling to pick themselves off the ground, etc. The only WR substitution when you ran almost 80 plays is when faison probably thought he was going to puke and pulled himself out.

There should be no less than 2 probably 3 questions about that on Monday. It was that bad. The WR usage might be worse than Ash's inability to plan and prepare the entire defense. Not that it had a bigger impact, but just from a pure coaching malpractice.

The coaching staff set up our WRs to fail late in the game. I just can't comprehend why you don't at least put out some fast WRs even as decoys to run some go's or deep slants to occupy the safety making it easier for faison, greathouse, gilbert to work. It also tires the defensive secondary more if they have to defend the deep pass a lot. We have waves of good athletic WRs not playing at all, and we probably are running so many short routes to try and not tire our 3 wrs out as much.
As O’Malley stated, “you don’t trust Matt Jeffrey enough w/ the playbook to spell Faison for 10 or so snaps?!”

same w/ Bettis/Burress spelling Gilbert
 

PutuporShutup

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100% Gilbert is good against the average teams. I want to see what Burress can do, I think you get the ball to him in space he's gonna put up 75-100 yards a game. Lets see what Burress, Fitzgerald and Frazier can do.
Freeman is on this message board, doesn't like you, and does not want you to be right about burress.

I will say, burress when given the chance looks like he has the best ability on the roster regarding the ability to get open. There's a lot more to playing WR then that, but his abilities NEED to be utilized, and Gilbert needs to be splitting reps with him at minimum.
 

SoIll

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Matt Freeman "blames" Denbrock more so than Ash. Definitely criticizes Ash plenty but was pretty harsh on MD. Solid read.

"The offense feels stale. The creativity is lacking. There aren't enough packages designed to get more athletes or speed on the field. "

"Seven games into the season, Notre Dame still doesn't have a clear offensive identity."
 

Dale

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Where is the uncertainty of the offensive identity? I think many can and would argue they don’t like the offensive identity but it’s clearly a pass first offense engineered by Carr, built on success rate and avoiding negative plays with a power run game also built on down to down success.

They are #1 in the Country in SD Success Rate and Havoc Allowed. That’s the offense. Matt Freeman can like it or not as a whole other conversation, but it’s not opaque the current identity of the offense.
 

sfk324

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Morons like Meyers think if the clock shows 4 then it means there is no more than 4 when in actuality it is the opposite. The clock is set to 15:00 exactly at the beginning of the quarter. When the clock starts, it shows 14:59 almost immediately, but it is actually 14:59.**, where the stars represent the fraction that does not appear on the clock/feed because it isn't designed to show. It's ultimately why the UM replay feed that shouldn't have been used showed time remaining, even though the stadium clock said :00. Presumably there is a point at which the fraction of a second is accounted for so that when the clock hits :00 it is actually :00.00, but McAulay's post correctly points out that the only people who know if or how that occurs are engineers/others at Daktronics.

Meyers' point that clock issues go away if they use tenths of a second like basketball and hockey is accurate, though.. There is no reason they can't use it for football timekeeping, there is more than enough money in FBS to address the issue.
 

InKellyWeTrust

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Morons like Meyers think if the clock shows 4 then it means there is no more than 4 when in actuality it is the opposite. The clock is set to 15:00 exactly at the beginning of the quarter. When the clock starts, it shows 14:59 almost immediately, but it is actually 14:59.**, where the stars represent the fraction that does not appear on the clock/feed because it isn't designed to show. It's ultimately why the UM replay feed that shouldn't have been used showed time remaining, even though the stadium clock said :00. Presumably there is a point at which the fraction of a second is accounted for so that when the clock hits :00 it is actually :00.00, but McAulay's post correctly points out that the only people who know if or how that occurs are engineers/others at Daktronics.

Meyers' point that clock issues go away if they use tenths of a second like basketball and hockey is accurate, though.. There is no reason they can't use it for football timekeeping, there is more than enough money in FBS to address the issue.
That assumes football referees and their conference-backed entities want more transparency.
 

NDLS_USMC

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Tin foil hat time but this game almost felt like something was up.

3am fire alarm at the team hotel. Gatorade got compromised and "stomach flu" ran through the offensive coaching staff. Angel Moroni got confused about team hotels and appeared to Chris Ash in a dream.

Something.

Alternately (and I'll still be a devoted follower), maybe this is all rigged...
 

sfk324

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Where is the uncertainty of the offensive identity? I think many can and would argue they don’t like the offensive identity but it’s clearly a pass first offense built on success rate and avoiding negative plays with a power run game also built on down to down success.
I tend to agree. The philosophy/identity, whatever you want to call it is avoiding negative plays and staying on schedule. It's boring and frustrating when the team is built to be so much better than "don't beat yourself." But it is what it is until it isn't, and it's not worth getting riled up about it at this point.

On the other hand, acknowledging that also raises it's own questions about personnel use, most glaringly the continued insistence on using AW when he's been ineffective running against anyone with a pulse, which puts the team off schedule. 3rd and 6 or 3rd and 7 is a bad situation in this scheme against a competent defense.

If the offense is asking the players to execute at a high rate, (which I have no issue with frankly -- if this team is what they and we think it is, then they need to be better in that regard), the same level of competence and execution must be demanded of the coaching decisions. None of it was good enough Saturday or against Miami last year. If they want to avoid the same fate on November 7, the coaches need to acknowledge that putting the Joe Schmidt of running backs out there as #2 is not doing them any favors.
 

Dale

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Until they theoretically sub out Flanagan, Gilbert, Greathouse and James for Walton, Premer, Burress, and Graham, nobody should have any confusion over the identity of the offense

down to down success > explosiveness.

That is not a right or wrong or why not both. It’s just that is what those 4 players bring and what the other 4 have built in as potential.

The end goal is get ball in end zone. You can’t go 2/5 in the red zone then. That was the game.
 

Dale

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BYU would not have challenged spike without ESPN broadcast. Seems like an extremely gray line to take pride in, why did this person not get it to Herbie that there was one second left then????? Maybe not the game to be like, “I caught something, yay me!”
 

Free Manera

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Tin foil hat time but this game almost felt like something was up.

3am fire alarm at the team hotel. Gatorade got compromised and "stomach flu" ran through the offensive coaching staff. Angel Moroni got confused about team hotels and appeared to Chris Ash in a dream.

Something.

Alternately (and I'll still be a devoted follower), maybe this is all rigged...

There are actually are reports on 247 that the team was dealing with the flu, and someone posted on this board that a mega-whale placed a huge moneyline bet on BYU late in the week. So it is possible that KVA, Moore, and the others that looked slow and out of it, actually were battling something.

But that doesn't excuse:
1. the 3 man WR rotation at altitude, when some of these guys were potentially not feeling their best.

2. Traore's boneheaded play

3. Not playing the back that everyone said opened up and changed the offense (except when you did for a minute and he bulldozed everyone for two runs and a TD, before being sent back to the ether never to be heard from again)

4. Carr holding down the button too long on every potential TD pass and sailing the ball to the ether with Walton

5. Playing confusing and soft zone all game so that the best unit on the field had to think rather than play fast

6. Giving BYU's defense nothing they haven't seen before on tape. The last play of the game was a play ND already ran for a TD this year.

7. Fumbling a spike

8. Etc.
 

sfk324

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BYU would not have challenged spike without ESPN broadcast. Seems like an extremely gray line to take pride in, why did this person not get it to Herbie that there was one second left then????? Maybe not the game to be like, “I caught something, yay me!”

I don't care about this if they make the same effort showing the timing issue on the last play. The argument they would make is "we're helping get the calls right," which, fine. But that goes both ways and the timing issue shouldn't only be noticed an hour later if he and the rest of the production crew are as good at their jobs as he's trying to claim.
 
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