Sebelius cuts funding to Catholic programs

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GDomer09

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There IS a scientific way of looking at being against abortion as well. So are they calling everyone who believes life begins at conception Religous people (Catholics). This is horse crap!!!! VOTE VOTE VOTE
 

irishog77

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Wow. So much to say...but it has all been said before.

All I hope for now is for that any "Catholic," or any person who truly values the sanctity of human life, who voted for Obama in 2008 will not cast a vote for that man in 2012.

This article, of course, points beyond the ramifications of turning our backs on the most innocent and helpless of all human beings, but those matters are mainly idealogical and philosophical...not necessarily matters that demonstrate the immorality of ourselves, our leaders, our government, and our nation.
 

95NDAlumNM

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Wow. So much to say...but it has all been said before.

All I hope for now is for that any "Catholic," or any person who truly values the sanctity of human life, who voted for Obama in 2008 will not cast a vote for that man in 2012.

This article, of course, points beyond the ramifications of turning our backs on the most innocent and helpless of all human beings, but those matters are mainly idealogical and philosophical...not necessarily matters that demonstrate the immorality of ourselves, our leaders, our government, and our nation.

This is crazy. You are saying the most important thing for this country is whether someone is anti-abortion or not. The republicans are taking away all of our freedoms, driving the middle class to be the new lower class, giving every break they can to destroying the environment, and basically destroying what America is all about and you want to not vote for someone because they are pro-choice. Wake up and see where this country is headed with the tea party and the republicans in charge.
 

WaveDomer

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This is crazy. You are saying the most important thing for this country is whether someone is anti-abortion or not. The republicans are taking away all of our freedoms, driving the middle class to be the new lower class, giving every break they can to destroying the environment, and basically destroying what America is all about and you want to not vote for someone because they are pro-choice. Wake up and see where this country is headed with the tea party and the republicans in charge.

How, specifically, are Republicans doing this?
 

mgriff

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It is within everyone's rights to vote for who they want on whatever grounds they deem necessary, but placing your vote for someone based on some incendiary issue that really does not address real problems that we have in this country is not doing anyone any favors. You can vote how you want, but think about how much more of an impact foreign and monetary policy have than abortion. This is an endless debate about abortion; I personally disagree with it and would never advocate it for my family, but I don't pretend to know every scenario another may experience.

I'll let my political leanings reveal themselves...:rofl:
 
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Rhode Irish

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Here's the thing I don't get about social issues in America: I respect people's beliefs and feel that everyone is free to make choices in their lives that reflect their faith. But I don't get where people are coming from who want to legislate their faith and inflict it upon others. If abortion and homosexuality are prohibited by your faith, then don't have an abortion and don't have sexual relations with someone of the same gender. Counsel those you know and love (or even strangers) to make similar decisions. But what is the basis for the belief that you can and should enforce your beliefs with respect to those who do not share them? Directives from scripture should be enforced only in people's personal lives.

This is crazy. You are saying the most important thing for this country is whether someone is anti-abortion or not. The republicans are taking away all of our freedoms, driving the middle class to be the new lower class, giving every break they can to destroying the environment, and basically destroying what America is all about and you want to not vote for someone because they are pro-choice. Wake up and see where this country is headed with the tea party and the republicans in charge.

Also, what he said.
 

mgriff

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Here's the thing I don't get about social issues in America: I respect people's beliefs and feel that everyone is free to make choices in their lives that reflect their faith. But I don't get where people are coming from who want to legislate their faith and inflict it upon others. If abortion and homosexuality are prohibited by your faith, then don't have an abortion and don't have sexual relations with someone of the same gender. Counsel those you know and love (or even strangers) to make similar decisions. But what is the basis for the belief that you can and should enforce your beliefs with respect to those who do not share them? Directives from scripture should be enforced only in people's personal lives.



Also, what he said.

Yes, I agree with this, but even from some who's not religious, the idea that life begins at conception means that they would have human rights. Yet, then you have to violate rights to force a woman to have the baby, but you could say it's because of a choice she made that she lost her right. Anyway, that's where the debate is going to go, but it just comes down to how far do you go to protect human life? Does the baby not have the same rights as you and I? It's quite a quagmire, and not something that is going to be solved on this board I assure you, although I encourage you to go forth and post.
 

magogian

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This is crazy. . . . Wake up and see where this country is headed with the tea party and the republicans in charge.

Funny. Last time I checked the Republicans only controlled the House. And even there, the Tea party caucas is a minority.

Funny how everything can be blamed on the party with the least power . . .
 

JoeyGetherall

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Isn't this a Notre Dame football/sports forum. Can't we take this elsewhere?
 

magogian

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Yes, I agree with this, but even from some who's not religious, the idea that life begins at conception means that they would have human rights. Yet, then you have to violate rights to force a woman to have the baby, but you could say it's because of a choice she made that she lost her right. Anyway, that's where the debate is going to go, but it just comes down to how far do you go to protect human life? Does the baby not have the same rights as you and I? It's quite a quagmire, and not something that is going to be solved on this board I assure you, although I encourage you to go forth and post.

Good post. This argument really is an exercise in futility. No one will change their mind. All we will get is personal attacks and flame wars by the end.
 

irishog77

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This is crazy. You are saying the most important thing for this country is whether someone is anti-abortion or not. The republicans are taking away all of our freedoms, driving the middle class to be the new lower class, giving every break they can to destroying the environment, and basically destroying what America is all about and you want to not vote for someone because they are pro-choice. Wake up and see where this country is headed with the tea party and the republicans in charge.

First off, I never mentioned anything about Republicans or the Tea Party-- you brought them up. Secondly (since you did bring them up), what, exactly is the Tea Party in charge of?? And last I checked, the Republicans were "in charge" of only 1/2 of 1/3 of our federal guhvmint. And finally, being "pro-choice" is a confusing euphemism on the topic of abortion. It isn't about a "choice," it's about the ability of a woman to decide to murder a baby because the baby is simply not wanted or fits into the mother's plans. And I find that decision to be immoral and utterly disgusting. So yeah, I think it matters quite a bit when I decide to cast a vote for someone if the candidate is not only perfectly okay with that murder, but also attempts to further that decision for other people. Go back and read the second part of the last paragraph in my post. There are numerous things reasonable and objectionable people can disagree about when it comes to political philosophy and the role of government in a society. Subjectively murdering members of that society and of the human race is not one of those items though.
 

phgreek

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This is crazy. You are saying the most important thing for this country is whether someone is anti-abortion or not. The republicans are taking away all of our freedoms, driving the middle class to be the new lower class, giving every break they can to destroying the environment, and basically destroying what America is all about and you want to not vote for someone because they are pro-choice. Wake up and see where this country is headed with the tea party and the republicans in charge.

Chris Mathews, is that you? ...ANYWAY...

So just in terms of "Destroying America"...you do know we are looking at horendous inflation, horrendous unemployment, and another downgrade to our rating...we have a president who still thinks the answer is more stimulus...are you effing kidding me with this? Just what is it you think the "Tea party" is doing to cause the destruction of America...and BTW, I'd love to hear more about this America you claim to know.

...bring something of substance if you are going to walk an entire group of folks to the Gallows...GEEZ!

AND BTW...this issue(abortion) is central to alot of folks...many of whom voted for the current president...IT MATTERS!
 
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Rhode Irish

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Specifics, please.

Seriously? You want me to write a dissertation about why Republic policies are bad for ordinary people? My agreement with the quoted comment was really with the idea that people that are focusing on these contentious hot button social issues are casting their votes based on the wrong thing.

Now, aside from that, I do happen to agree with the rest of the quoted paragraph concerning republican political agenda, but I could have agreed with his initial sentence even if I didn't. Here are some specifics for why agree with each of the things 95NDAlumniNW said:

- I think that conservative policies have restricted personal liberties by eroding the many of the protections historically afforded by the 6th (and 14th) Amendment; and through many of the more draconian elements of the Patriot Act (i.e. warrantless wiretapping, etc.), among other things.

-I think that republican policies are hurting the middle class and increasing the chasm between rich and poor through tax policies that favor the wealthy; by favoring policies of deregulation and allowing banks and corporations to operate in a virtually lawless environment; by taking a decidedly pro-management stance on labor policy, while "management" continues to be paid more, labor continues to be paid less and jobs continue to disappear overseas; by failing to pass any sort of jobs-generating legislation while controlling the House and opposing their political opposition's every attempt to do so; and by taking a position in opposition to unemployment benefits that people desperately need, because they think it encourages laziness.

-I think that republicans disregard for the environment is so well documented it does not require an explanation here.

- And I think an argument could be made that republicans are "destroying what this country is all about" (although I probably would have chosen different wording for this idea than he did) by creating a culture of obstinate obstructionism in Washington that has left the federal government unable to do anything substantial to address our dismal current state of affairs; and by cultivating the current toxic state of the political discourse in this country. The right is certainly more politically savvy than the left, but part of that is trading in a brand of inflammatory rhetoric that is reckless and irresponsible.
 

RDU Irish

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"President Obama skillfully deflated the tension. He extended a “presumption of good faith” to his pro-life opponents. Then he promised Catholics that their pro-life convictions would be respected by his administration. “Let’s honor the conscience of those who disagree with abortion,” he said, “and draft a sensible conscience clause, and make sure that all of our health-care policies are grounded not only in sound science but also in clear ethics, as well as respect for the equality of women.”

THIS SUMS UP THE ARTICLE "But because case managers won’t refer for abortions, HHS would rather see these programs shut down in favor of less effective alternatives. This form of anti-religious extremism counts casualties."


So Obama promises one thing and then does the complete opposite. Seems par for the course for the Teleprompter in Chief. (Oops, gave away my political leaning there so that half will instantly love me and the other half hate me) Fact is, Obama is skillfully using the executive branch to unilaterally advance his far left agenda. YES THAT IS A FACT.


You see why these issues never advance, the discussions are always hijacked by extremists. As a realist, I would rather seee marginal improvements toward less abortion than to kill the conversation and maintain the status quo. Disengaging from the debate because "I'm right and you're wrong" usually has the opposite effect of advancing the opposition's cause. I don't see how someone could argue a first trimester abortion is equal to a third trimester abortion of a viable child. Yet polarizing the issue does not even allow policy to find this more reasonable middle ground.
 

Rhode Irish

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Chris Mathews, is that you? ...ANYWAY...

So just in terms of "Destroying America"...you do know we are looking at horendous inflation, horrendous unemployment, and another downgrade to our rating...we have a president who still thinks the answer is more stimulus...are you effing kidding me with this? Just what is it you think the "Tea party" is doing to cause the destruction of America...and BTW, I'd love to hear more about this America you claim to know.

...bring something of substance if you are going to walk an entire group of folks to the Gallows...GEEZ!

AND BTW...this issue(abortion) is central to alot of folks...many of whom voted for the current president...IT MATTERS!

Most credentialed economists agree with him and disapprove of austerity.
 

phgreek

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Seriously? You want me to write a dissertation about why Republic policies are bad for ordinary people? My agreement with the quoted comment was really with the idea that people that are focusing on these contentious hot button social issues are casting their votes based on the wrong thing.

Now, aside from that, I do happen to agree with the rest of the quoted paragraph concerning republican political agenda, but I could have agreed with his initial sentence even if I didn't. Here are some specifics for why agree with each of the things 95NDAlumniNW said:

- I think that conservative policies have restricted personal liberties by eroding the many of the protections historically afforded by the 6th (and 14th) Amendment; and through many of the more draconian elements of the Patriot Act (i.e. warrantless wiretapping, etc.), among other things.

...why are they still utilized?

-I think that republican policies are hurting the middle class and increasing the chasm between rich and poor through tax policies that favor the wealthy; by favoring policies of deregulation and allowing banks and corporations to operate in a virtually lawless environment; by taking a decidedly pro-management stance on labor policy, while "management" continues to be paid more, labor continues to be paid less and jobs continue to disappear overseas; by failing to pass any sort of jobs-generating legislation while controlling the House and opposing their political opposition's every attempt to do so; and by taking a position in opposition to unemployment benefits that people desperately need, because they think it encourages laziness.

...I agree with some of this, I'll add that it is a fact that, job aquisition tends to happen at the end of unemployment regardless of the the length of the benefit...so by all means interpret that for me...

-I think that republicans disregard for the environment is so well documented it does not require an explanation here.

...Really, my life is the environment. I am a republican. Here is the difference in policy approach. We spend research money to replace industrial processes with more environmentally friendly processes with the limiting factor being that the new process must make at least a neutral footprint on cost. Many on the other side of this discussion simply say stop...and they destroy commerce...thats simply cowtowing to their constituency instead of leading

- And I think an argument could be made that republicans are "destroying what this country is all about" (although I probably would have chosen different wording for this idea than he did) by creating a culture of obstinate obstructionism in Washington that has left the federal government unable to do anything substantial to address our dismal current state of affairs; and by cultivating the current toxic state of the political discourse in this country. The right is certainly more politically savvy than the left, but part of that is trading in a brand of inflammatory rhetoric that is reckless and irresponsible.

...total pot calling the Kettle black...won't even start to try and parse who is worse.
 

Rhode Irish

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Most...thats total BS...there are maybe equal numbers on this...

but to me this is simply a common sense issue...

During a recession the government should spend money. When the economy is generating a surplus we should pay down the deficit. That is my view. I'm not trying to replay the whole Occupy Wall Street thread again. Obviously, members of this board differ politically. We just have to accept that.
 

RDU Irish

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I'm sorry, you wrote "credentialed" but you meant "Keynsian" economists.

Economists agree that TARP was necessary, however the stimulus is widely accepted as a complete waste of money, even by Obama.

Obama: Shovel Ready jobs not shovel ready - YouTube

Yuck it up. Good sense of humor on that POS-POTUS.

The counter for "austerity" being toxic is to ask why we don't just send every man woman and child a check for $100,000. Debts don't matter right? Spending is where it is at so put tons of money in the hands of Americans so we can consume our way out of this. You are smart enough, Rhode, that I don't have to explain the fallacy of this current course.
 

RDU Irish

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How about we get back on the topic of Obama throwing away partnerships with extremely effective public/private relationships? Catholic Charities do a ton of good work around the world on small budgets.
 

phgreek

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During a recession the government should spend money. When the economy is generating a surplus we should pay down the deficit. That is my view. I'm not trying to replay the whole Occupy Wall Street thread again. Obviously, members of this board differ politically. We just have to accept that.

at what point does the deficit eat your ability to attain surplus? The very impacts of being in a deficit hinder growth when you are in to the degree we are...

so the academic solution doesn't work anymore...

Agree we just have to live with the fact that others have views that differ...I'm pretty accepting of that fact...I do want folks to try and not claim things like "Most" w/o some basis for doing so...maybe most academics who are economists see it your way...if thats what you mean by credentialed...maybe so, ...but I've worked with Economists that aren't in academia...NONE agree with BO.
 

Rhode Irish

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at what point does the deficit eat your ability to attain surplus? The very impacts of being in a deficit hinder growth when you are in to the degree we are...

so the academic solution doesn't work anymore...

Agree we just have to live with the fact that others have views that differ...I'm pretty accepting of that fact...I do want folks to try and not claim things like "Most" w/o some basis for doing so...maybe most academics who are economists see it your way...if thats what you mean by credentialed...maybe so, ...but I've worked with Economists that aren't in academia...NONE agree with BO.

OK, fair enough. I actually waffled between saying "most" and "many". Maybe I should have just gone with "many".
 
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