ND Academics Vs. Ohio St.

[rtrn2glory]

i don't understand why ppl think ohio st is not a good academic institution? don't be blinded by morons like pryor who give the university a bad rep. Not saying its at the level of the other 3, but it is not a popcorn college..admissions have stiffened up.

 

[BGIF]

i don't understand why ppl think ohio st is not a good academic institution? don't be blinded by morons like pryor who give the university a bad rep. Not saying its at the level of the other 3, but it is not a popcorn college..admissions have stiffened up.

Probably because people recall OSU allowing Katzenmoyer to go summer school to become eligible for his senior season and getting an "A" in all 3 courses, Golf, Music Appreciation, and Aids Awareness. In one class every student got an A something the instructor had never done before. Lucky for Katz as he needed those grades to be eligible. When the media caught wind of this sham, the OSU president conducted an investigation. He expressed shock, ala Captain Renault in Casablanca, to find that Katzenmoyer was a senior without a declared major. The OSU president further expressed shock to learn that wasn't unusual at keep 'em eligible U. It was S.O.P. Oh, and after becoming eligible, Katzenmoyer didn't attend classes his senior year but OSU continued to play him.

Some fans recall Robert Smith getting bad mouthed by an OSU coach when Smith wanted to go study for a test the next day and the coach demanded he watch more film on the upcoming opponent.

OSU touts their 60,000 students and over 175 degree programs. They tout their 10,000 student graduate system and note which ones finished 21st, 25th, or 27th in U.S. News Surveys. But they don't tout their graduation rate for undergrads nor for football players which is germaine to your comment and this thread.

Here's the NCAA grad rates for Big 10 Football. Note OSU with a firm lock on 8th place, 32 points (1/3), lower than Northwestern which trailed - Notre Dame.

Northwestern, PSU lead Big Ten GSR scores - Big Ten Blog - ESPN

Northwestern, PSU lead Big Ten GSR scores
10/28/10
Adam Rittenberg, ESPN

The NCAA on Wednesday released its latest scores for Graduation Success Rate (GSR), and the overall news is positive for FBS programs.

Here are the GSR percentages for Big Ten teams, which calculated four-year rates for players who entered school in 2003:
•Northwestern: 95
•Penn State: 84
•Iowa: 79
•Illinois: 76
•Michigan: 72
•Indiana: 69
•Wisconsin: 65
•Ohio State: 63
•Purdue: 60
•Minnesota: 56
•Michigan State: 55

The NCAA's formula takes into account transfer students and is different than the federal government's graduation rate.

Northwestern finished tied for second nationally in GSR among Football Bowl Subdivision programs, behind only Notre Dame. Penn State finished tied for 12th nationally.

 

[koonja]

i don't understand why ppl think ohio st is not a good academic institution? don't be blinded by morons like pryor who give the university a bad rep. Not saying its at the level of the other 3, but it is not a popcorn college..admissions have stiffened up.

I don't put too much stock into an athlete mentioning academics. Too many times a recruit's claimed that's most important to them, just to sign with an SEC school over an academically superior University.

 

[woolybug25]

i don't understand why ppl think ohio st is not a good academic institution? don't be blinded by morons like pryor who give the university a bad rep. Not saying its at the level of the other 3, but it is not a popcorn college..admissions have stiffened up.

haha, show me one example of how their admissions have "stiffened up" for football players. Their graduation rate is 63%. Four of the five SEC teams that finished in the top 25 had better graduation rates. In comparison, we graduated 99% and Stanford graduated 86%. It's a whole different league of academics.

edit - I guess BGIF was faster on the draw. lol

 

[irishog77]

I don't put too much stock into an athlete mentioning academics. Too many times a recruit's claimed that's most important to them, just to sign with an SEC school over an academically superior University.

Sure 'nough! Besides, a lot of these guys and their families would claim a degree from whatever online university is bombarding them with spam mail that particular week is a quality education and degree anyway.

Not to say there aren't exceptions to this (Greg McElroy, Myron Rolle, and others), but they are certainly the exception to the rule.

 

[DomeX2 eNVy]

I don't put too much stock into an athlete mentioning academics. Too many times a recruit's claimed that's most important to them, just to sign with an SEC school over an academically superior University.

More often than not I would agree with what you said, but when a kid has ND, Northwestern, and Stanford as 3/4 of his finalist - with the other being the home state powerhouse - I think he and his family deserve the benefit of the doubt that they are looking for TOP level academics.
In many other cases when a kid says this he means, "the school's lack of attention to academics is important, because I don't want to study"; but I just don't see it in this case.

 

[rtrn2glory]

u guys missed my point...im sure they're lax on football players, as are all universities. if davaris daniels wasn't an athletic freak he would have had no chance to get into school here (case closed)

all i'm saying is outside of athletics, much like at all colleges, ohio st is a solid education.

 

[NDinL.A.]

u guys missed my point...im sure they're lax on football players, as are all universities. if davaris daniels wasn't an athletic freak he would have had no chance to get into school here (case closed)

Actually, that's not even close to being case closed. Everybody knows that football players can get into college when regular students with the same transcripts wouldn't get in. But schools like Stanford, ND, Northwestern, Duke, etc still have higher standards than most schools, OSU included. And it's about what happens when they get to the school as well.

My problem is that you said OSU is lax on football players, as are all universities. So not true. The crap the Katz got away with, happens at a lot of other schools, but would NEVER happen at ND or Northwestern or Vandy, etc. While football players are given every opportunity to succeed at ND, they are still expected to graduate in 4 years, and take classes that the rest of the student body is taking. Ask many of the ND students/alums on this site. I know people at USC who have tld me what kind of 'classes' football players are steered to. Schools like OSU and USC have 'football' majors, whereas you don't get those at places like Northwestern and Stanford.

As for your assertion that you can get a quality education at OSU, well, you can get one at pretty much any school if you put the work in, so that is an obvious statement. But it still pails in comparison of what you'd get at ND...

 

[HereComeTheIrish]

u guys missed my point...im sure they're lax on football players, as are all universities. if davaris daniels wasn't an athletic freak he would have had no chance to get into school here (case closed)

all i'm saying is outside of athletics, much like at all colleges, ohio st is a solid education.

The Price is Right Losing Horn - YouTube

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Quote:
Originally Posted by rtrn2glory
i don't understand why ppl think ohio st is not a good academic institution? don't be blinded by morons like pryor who give the university a bad rep. Not saying its at the level of the other 3, but it is not a popcorn college..admissions have stiffened up.

Probably because people recall OSU allowing Katzenmoyer to go summer school to become eligible for his senior season and getting an "A" in all 3 courses, Golf, Music Appreciation, and Aids Awareness. In one class every student got an A something the instructor had never done before. Lucky for Katz as he needed those grades to be eligible. When the media caught wind of this sham, the OSU president conducted an investigation. He expressed shock, ala Captain Renault in Casablanca, to find that Katzenmoyer was a senior without a declared major. The OSU president further expressed shock to learn that wasn't unusual at keep 'em eligible U. It was S.O.P. Oh, and after becoming eligible, Katzenmoyer didn't attend classes his senior year but OSU continued to play him.

Some fans recall Robert Smith getting bad mouthed by an OSU coach when Smith wanted to go study for a test the next day and the coach demanded he watch more film on the upcoming opponent.

OSU touts their 60,000 students and over 175 degree programs. They tout their 10,000 student graduate system and note which ones finished 21st, 25th, or 27th in U.S. News Surveys. But they don't tout their graduation rate for undergrads nor for football players which is germaine to your comment and this thread.

Here's the NCAA grad rates for Big 10 Football. Note OSU with a firm lock on 8th place, 32 points (1/3), lower than Northwestern which trailed - Notre Dame.

Northwestern, PSU lead Big Ten GSR scores - Big Ten Blog - ESPN

Northwestern, PSU lead Big Ten GSR scores
10/28/10
Adam Rittenberg, ESPN


Quote:
The NCAA on Wednesday released its latest scores for Graduation Success Rate (GSR), and the overall news is positive for FBS programs.

Here are the GSR percentages for Big Ten teams, which calculated four-year rates for players who entered school in 2003:
•Northwestern: 95
•Penn State: 84
•Iowa: 79
•Illinois: 76
•Michigan: 72
•Indiana: 69
•Wisconsin: 65
•Ohio State: 63
•Purdue: 60
•Minnesota: 56
•Michigan State: 55

The NCAA's formula takes into account transfer students and is different than the federal government's graduation rate.

Northwestern finished tied for second nationally in GSR among Football Bowl Subdivision programs, behind only Notre Dame. Penn State finished tied for 12th nationally.

Katzenmoyer played what fifteen years ago? I knew Robert Smith at that point in his life. He was my niece's roommates boyfriend. That story was inaccurate.

I have to laugh when I see success rates etc. Look, about fifty percent of kids that start school [general entrants], finish with a degree. So all of the schools you listed were actually higher than that. But a degree that means something, from a program that matters, with advisors taking into account the fact that they are working with (nearly) teenagers? That's different.

 

[rtrn2glory]

no one on here will convince me schools with quality football programs are not lax on there athletes...that's just the way it is. If you dig deep enough every school i'm sure has some skeletons in the closet. Katzenmoyer was one of the best players in the country at the time and 99.9% of colleges and head coaches would have done the same thing to keep him on the field. that is a fact. It's about winning and no one cares how it is done as long as it is being accomplished. Until rules are publicly broken no university President, booster member, alumni, etc. will complain about how the mission is being accomplished.

sorry to jab on odenigbo's thread...kid's a stud and regardless of what has been said, he seems like a good kid and he is personally the recruit i'm begging that we land.

 

[IrishLax]

no one on here will convince me schools with quality football programs are not lax on there athletes...that's just the way it is. If you dig deep enough every school i'm sure has some skeletons in the closet. Katzenmoyer was one of the best players in the country at the time and 99.9% of colleges and head coaches would have done the same thing to keep him on the field. that is a fact. It's about winning and no one cares how it is done as long as it is being accomplished. Until rules are publicly broken no university President, booster member, alumni, etc. will complain about how the mission is being accomplished.

sorry to jab on odenigbo's thread...kid's a stud and regardless of what has been said, he seems like a good kid and he is personally the recruit i'm begging that we land.

Not a football player, but you'd be surprised how on the "up and up" it is at ND... and I'd imagine places like Stanford, Duke, etc. are no different. Athletes succeed at ND because if you skip class... you hear about it from your coaches. You don't turn in homework... you hear about it from your coaches. You bomb a test... yeah you guessed it, you hear about it from your coaches.

Trust me, your coaches DO NOT like being bugged by advisers because one of their players decided to be a bad student. And players DO NOT like being in the dog house with their coaches. It's all about priorities. You simply have to choose to put it on academics first. Most schools do not do that.

Also, tutors = awesome. Don't be so easy to dismiss the hard work done by athletes at ND. They just have the support structure to pull it off... and the registration times to get the classes they want

 

[rtrn2glory]

Not a football player, but you'd be surprised how on the "up and up" it is at ND... and I'd imagine places like Stanford, Duke, etc. are no different. Athletes succeed at ND because if you skip class... you hear about it from your coaches. You don't turn in homework... you hear about it from your coaches. You bomb a test... yeah you guessed it, you hear about it from your coaches.

Trust me, your coaches DO NOT like being bugged by advisers because one of their players decided to be a bad student. And players DO NOT like being in the dog house with their coaches. It's all about priorities. You simply have to choose to put it on academics first. Most schools do not do that.

Also, tutors = awesome. Don't be so easy to dismiss the hard work done by athletes at ND. They just have the support structure to pull it off... and the registration times to get the classes they want

thanks for the first hand knowledge. surely ND is not as gross as other institutions in regards to treatment to athletes, but to think it isn't there is ludacris and to bash other institutions for doing it is hypocritical...the reason i say this is because it's easy to point the finger at other schools and i'm just hoping this type of negative publicity never comes to ND

 

[military_irish]

Not to jump in the middle of a conversation but ND has to be somewhat stict on their academics. Considering Julius Jones, Darrin Walls, Duval Kumara, and some others that escape my mind all missed time or a season due to academics. Jones and Walls were very important parts of the team, too. I can not speak for many other of the teams in the country because I do not pay that much attention to them. Just my two cents, I guess.

 

[NDinL.A.]

no one on here will convince me schools with quality football programs are not lax on there athletes...that's just the way it is. If you dig deep enough every school i'm sure has some skeletons in the closet. Katzenmoyer was one of the best players in the country at the time and 99.9% of colleges and head coaches would have done the same thing to keep him on the field. that is a fact. It's about winning and no one cares how it is done as long as it is being accomplished. Until rules are publicly broken no university President, booster member, alumni, etc. will complain about how the mission is being accomplished.

Sorry, you're just flat out wrong here, at least in the case of ND. LAX pointed it out already, but let me add to it. There is no way in hell that Katz would have been allowed to be at ND for 4 years without declaring a major. No way in hell he would have been allowed to play his last year without attending any classes. No way in hell he would have been able to take 3 bullsh!t electives in order to get his GPA up. The way you are talking, it makes me think you don't really follow ND all that closely (I'm assuming you do), because you really are way off base here.

You know what one of the first courses Shaq Evans took at ND his first summer was? Calculus. This is a kid from the ghetto of Inglewood, CA, a 4 star recruit everyone thought would be a stud. There was no preferential treatment. You remember the 1 unit ballroom dancing class Matt Leinart took at USC so he could play football after he graduated. That sh!t can't fly at ND. You either take a full load towards a different degree, or you start your Masters. Or you go to friggin' law school (Stewart).

My wife took classes with many football players (Shark, Quinn, Stovall, Fasano, Zibby, etc). While they were offered tutored and all the perks of being an athlete, they also got no preferential treatment from her professors and had to take the same exams and turn in the same reports she did.

So you can believe what you want, but you're believing wrong. ND is certainly not perfect at all, but her standards are far above most big-time programs...

 

[Bogtrotter07]

stict

Vot istn dis "stict"? Ve vont to know. Ve haft vays of making you talk . . .


I have a friend who coached at ND, and he has very good connections there yet. I get the impression that calcfromhellulous is pretty much what all the entering football players take during their first summer. Is that not true?

 

[dshans]

... I get the impression that calcfromhellulous is pretty much what all the entering football players take during their first summer. Is that not true?

It wouldn't surprise me in the least. As an ND freshman (way back) in '70 one of my required courses was calculus. My class, held on Monday, Wednesdays and Friday at 9 AM, was led by a Mr. Peebles (no lie) who was actually a grad student with no teaching skills. The Professor made an appearance during the initial class and that was the last we saw of him. Peebles would fill the blackboard with proofs and formulae. When the board was filled, he'd turn and state "This, of course, is trivial" then erase the gibberish he'd chalked and start anew. He allowed no time for explanation, questions or instruction. There was a quiz on Friday. This was far from the highlight of my first semester. It would probably have been no problem for my father or my son, but the "math gene apparently skips a generation.

I certainly hope that freshman at ND these days, football players or summer students or not, get a bit more support.

All I can really add is that athletes, in my experience, were not afforded preferential treatment when it came to academics. There were football and basketball players in my dorm and in my classes. The "rules" applied to all.

 

[BGIF]

thanks for the first hand knowledge. surely ND is not as gross as other institutions in regards to treatment to athletes, but to think it isn't there is ludacris and to bash other institutions for doing it is hypocritical...the reason i say this is because it's easy to point the finger at other schools and i'm just hoping this type of negative publicity never comes to ND

"... surely ND is not as gross as other institutions in regards to treatment to athletes ..."

Not as gross? That's a baseless slur.

You really don't know a thing about ND, the school, do you?

Are you truly that ignorant a fan, or just a troll?


Several alumni have presented their first hand experience about athletes and the academic environment at ND. NDinL.A. presented his wife's ND experience with athletes in the classroom.

I noted the inferior performance of OSU athletic academic success in the public record as documented by ESPN and the NCAA. I also noted two incidents that document the OSU Administration's decades long, callous disregard for the education of their athletes regardless of who the head coach was. OSU's current President Gee, who recently said, he hoped Coach Tressel didn't fire him, was personally involved in the Robert Smith travesty during his previous stint as OSU President.


N.B. NDinL.A., please move the OSU academic posts to a separate thread in either Other College Football or the general recruiting forum. I've got more documentation but I don't wish to tie up a Recruit's Profile dealing with a troll regardless of his alleged afflliation. My apologies to the Odenigbo family.

 

[Buster Bluth]

surely ND is not as gross as other institutions in regards to treatment to athletes, but to think it isn't there is ludacris and to bash other institutions for doing it is hypocritical..

EDIT: Never mind, BGIF took care of it. hah

 

[Old Man Mike]

If it's academics that this young man is looking for, he'll find no better opportunities nor support than he'll get at Notre Dame. What that one poster is on about baffles me. Notre Dame has great academic options and the serious young scholar [football player or not] has the choice to pursue them. AND get great help if needed. Ifeadi can do no better. WAY back in my stoneage career, Nick Buoniconti, our two-time All-american guard was happily succeeding brilliantly on his way to a law degree, as was Alan Page in between and Chris Stewart last year. Notre Dame = Academic Empowerment. Very few other places can claim that for each student with a straight face.

Regarding Trotter's math conundrum.
All schools have the "math education" problem. It's one rare thing from which even Notre Dame cannot be immune. Math is a different language and unlike "normal" language is not taught [usually] with real-world referents. Therefore it is annoyingly and bafflingly abstract [some brilliant teachers can somewhat overcome this, but not many]. Worsening the situation in college, college professors are rarely hired for their teaching ability but rather their scholarship. Scholarship is closely related NEITHER to ability to teach/communicate nor social skills. Thirdly, all schools require certain lower-level math skills as part of their general education programs. It's been debated for a long time as to why, but it's not changing. That means that students all herd through those classes. That means either massive roomfuls or lots of grad student sections or both. Fourthly, we don't produce nearly enough qualified grad students [particularly in math and technical subjects] in the United States yet universities need them. So...foreign students, mostly with non-english-speaking backgrounds. And there you are.

The only way to mitigate the troubles this causes is to have academic support available. THEN the student must be willing to go get it. Finally getting back to thread topic, Notre Dame will make the latter easy to partake in for Ifeadi if the occasion ever arises for the young man. So even the Math Monster [which you face everywhere] is cut down to size for an ND athlete.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

I think any recruit, or recruit's family that sees this kind of robust open discussion should appreciate it, and value it. How many other sites are controlled by thought police? If you disagree, aren't that particular type of homer, or fail to tow the party line in any way, how many of these sites edit you out?

No, even when non-flattering things are said, the kind of champions ND recruits with Kelly are okay with dissent, and even a bit of impropriety. After all, being outside of this discussion, all anybody was saying was just because OSU's standards aren't ND's that doesn't make them terrible.

 

[kmader]

If it's academics that this young man is looking for, he'll find no better opportunities nor support than he'll get at Notre Dame. What that one poster is on about baffles me. Notre Dame has great academic options and the serious young scholar [football player or not] has the choice to pursue them. AND get great help if needed. Ifeadi can do no better. WAY back in my stoneage career, Nick Buoniconti, our two-time All-american guard was happily succeeding brilliantly on his way to a law degree, as was Alan Page in between and Chris Stewart last year. Notre Dame = Academic Empowerment. Very few other places can claim that for each student with a straight face.

Regarding Trotter's math conundrum.
All schools have the "math education" problem. It's one rare thing from which even Notre Dame cannot be immune. Math is a different language and unlike "normal" language is not taught [usually] with real-world referents. Therefore it is annoyingly and bafflingly abstract [some brilliant teachers can somewhat overcome this, but not many]. Worsening the situation in college, college professors are rarely hired for their teaching ability but rather their scholarship. Scholarship is closely related NEITHER to ability to teach/communicate nor social skills. Thirdly, all schools require certain lower-level math skills as part of their general education programs. It's been debated for a long time as to why, but it's not changing. That means that students all herd through those classes. That means either massive roomfuls or lots of grad student sections or both. Fourthly, we don't produce nearly enough qualified grad students [particularly in math and technical subjects] in the United States yet universities need them. So...foreign students, mostly with non-english-speaking backgrounds. And there you are.

The only way to mitigate the troubles this causes is to have academic support available. THEN the student must be willing to go get it. Finally getting back to thread topic, Notre Dame will make the latter easy to partake in for Ifeadi if the occasion ever arises for the young man. So even the Math Monster [which you face everywhere] is cut down to size for an ND athlete.

I'm not sure whether this is a problem at other schools or just at Notre Dame, but as a math major, I can tell you that we have quite a few very highly qualified, understandable, clear, and caring math professors. However, the math department wants to conserve some of these professors for their own majors, so there is a group of professors, most of whom are not quite on par with the others, who are assigned to teach the "lower" classes. For these professors, who are doing work at a much higher level, this type of material is where the gap between teacher and student comes in... the professors are first, not the best options, and second, far too advanced and/or unconcerned and/or have too strong of an accent to discuss something like this well. This can be seen in my own experience with math at ND... I obtained my worst grade at ND in the first math class I took, and have since done reasonably well in the math classes since then. Had the professor been one of my later ones, I might've done significantly better. Granted, part of that was also that, transitioning from high school, I didn't know how to study yet, but I definitely wasn't interested in the material at the time, and that's likely on the professor.

For athletes at ND though, I would agree that there are tons of resources available, so even if the professors they are given aren't the best (if it is primarily a class being taken by athletes though, my understanding is that a better professor will likely be assigned), they do have the ability to meet with tutors and find other sources of academic help. ND absolutely puts effort into setting everyone up to succeed.

 

[Domina Nostra]

The way think about it is that Notre Dame is the best place for a normal football player to get an excellent education. This is based on a combination of the administration's unique commitment to educating its athletes, the school's liberal art's focus, the resources available, and even the faith permeated atmosphere. In other words, ND is the best place to go if you want to succeed academically while going with the flow of the program.

However, Notre Dame is not necessarily the most prestigious est D1 education: Stanford, Duke, and Northwestern have good, if not better, arguments there. There are also other schools which have better individual departments than Notre Dame and the other prestigious schools.

Moreover, if you are not an average football player (i.e., self-motivated, academically focused, immune to peer pressure: think Myron Rolle, Greg McElroy) it doesn't really matter where you go. You can go to an overall mediocre institution like Alabama or FSU and compete for Rhode Scholarships.

 

[micks60]

i don't understand why ppl think ohio st is not a good academic institution? don't be blinded by morons like pryor who give the university a bad rep. Not saying its at the level of the other 3, but it is not a popcorn college..admissions have stiffened up.

I have taught for years and many students who were not super high caliber students have ended up at OSU. Also the students who cannot hack it at Miami OH and other schools end up transfering to OSU. If OSU were so tough there would not be as many that I know that went there. On another note I only have known two that went to ND and a few of the Ivy league schools.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

I am a little confused because my conundrum post didn't move. I think this is a fine debate for IE posters to engage. My hat's off to moderators to doing such a good job in splicing this conversation out of a recruits thread. Way too deep of issues here.

 

[IrishInFl]

i don't understand why ppl think ohio st is not a good academic institution? don't be blinded by morons like pryor who give the university a bad rep. Not saying its at the level of the other 3, but it is not a popcorn college..admissions have stiffened up.

So has FSU's... so what? It's still an average state school. FSU has much more difficult standards to get into school than University of Minnesota's system (which I went to), yet Minnesota is rated higher.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

As for your assertion that you can get a quality education at OSU, well, you can get one at pretty much any school if you put the work in, so that is an obvious statement. But it still pails in comparison of what you'd get at ND...

That's probably the only part I would somewhat question. I couch this in the fact that I did not go to ND, so I don't know first hand what goes on there. I have gone to 2 other institutions of higher learning, so I do know some of what goes on elsewhere.

Here's what it seems like to me...
- A kid can get a top notch education at Notre Dame.
- A kid can also get a top notch education at Florida State or Ohio State (just two examples).
- A top notch football player can coast at most institutions.
- No football player can coast at Notre Dame. He WILL get a good education, or he won't keep playing, and he won't graduate.

I understand the quality of the professors at ND and the academic rigor that is demanded. But, those things exist elsewhere. They're sometimes just uneven other schools.

I'm a teacher and am currently seeking a terminal degree (my final one, or the one that will kill me...we'll see what happens...), so education is quite important to me.

Am I way off base?

 

[BurningRiver]

i don't understand why ppl think ohio st is not a good academic institution? don't be blinded by morons like pryor who give the university a bad rep. Not saying its at the level of the other 3, but it is not a popcorn college..admissions have stiffened up.

Yup. I have a friend who applied to OSU last year with a 4.0, he was captain of the hockey team, on student senate, etc. and was denied. OSU has rreeaalllyy amped up their admission standards. in Ohio OSU used to be every kid's backup school, where if they didn't get into their dream school or whatever they would always have good ol' OSU to fall back on. but now it's such a good school, and so many students want to go there, it's pretty hard to get in. I was hoping it wouldn't be hard to get into in case my ND dreams weren't fulfilled (fingers crossed) but after hearing all of these stories about kids who didn't get in it's not such a sure thing anymore.

And yeah, their football admissions are pretty lax, but one of my friends who goes there says she was in Terell Pryor's class this year and they had a guard stay outside the classroom and take him from class to class to make sure he wasn't skipping any. At least that's better than SEC schools where they players can just major in "football." Still hate OSU though.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Yup. I have a friend who applied to OSU last year with a 4.0, he was captain of the hockey team, on student senate, etc. and was denied. OSU has rreeaalllyy amped up their admission standards.

OSU admits 52% of all applicants. That might be selective for a large public university, but not on an objective scale. ND, for instance, admits only ~28%.

 

[kmoose]

no one on here will convince me schools with quality football programs are not lax on there athletes...that's just the way it is. If you dig deep enough every school i'm sure has some skeletons in the closet. Katzenmoyer was one of the best players in the country at the time and 99.9% of colleges and head coaches would have done the same thing to keep him on the field. that is a fact. It's about winning and no one cares how it is done as long as it is being accomplished. Until rules are publicly broken no university President, booster member, alumni, etc. will complain about how the mission is being accomplished.

I guess this depends on how you define lax. I'm sure that there are accomodations made, for football players, at ND. For instance: got a big test on the Friday before the game @SC or Stanford? A football player is probably allowed to take that test early, to accomodate the team travel. And maybe the prof is one who wouldn't normally give other students the same opportunity. To me, that's "special treatment". But it's NOWHERE near on par with stuff that goes on at other schools. See the previously mentioned Andrew Katzenmoyer at THE Ohio State University. As was previously mentioned, I cannot fathom ND giving ANY player the kind of latitude that was given to Katzenmoyer. So do ND athletes get some special dispensations that other, regular, students don't get? I'm sure they do. But do athletes have it "easy", or even "easier", at ND? I doubt it. As to the last part of your statement: I don't recall there even being a hint, in the media or amongst fans, of any academic issues with Julius Jones, or Darren Walls. Yet the University told those two to take some time off, and get their academic obligations in order. No one at ND waited for anything to break, publicly, before caring.