What if Dayne, Kyle, Theo, and Armando...

[FightingIrishLover7]

I know you guys dislike "What Ifs".
But I figured since it is the off-season, might as well get some discussion going.

Anyway.

What if Dayne Crist, Kyle Rudolph, Theo Riddick, and Armando Allen did not get injured?

Would ND have finished as strong?
Would ND still land the big name recruits (lynch, williams)?
Would we be as excited for next season?

Just wondered what you guys think.

I personally think, ND's success came from our defense. So, I think that was a matter of time for ND to get their level of success.

So, I think ND would have went 4-0 without Rees.

But I'm still impressed with Tommy's leadership and management.

 

[JadeBrecks]

I think that crists injury was a help to us ending the way we did and will help us next year. If he wants to start next year he will have to step it up. He has compitition behind him now and reese playing only increased his resume.
I think Kyle, and theo getting hurt really hurt us. Rudolph and Theo are awesome players and while his replacments did alright I dont think they played to the level of who they replaced.
I am on the fence about Allen. I wasnt very impressed with him in previous years. He did a lot of work for this year and I dont think he had enough time to show if it made a differance.
Just my $.02

 

[kmoose]

I know you guys dislike "What Ifs".
But I figured since it is the off-season, might as well get some discussion going.

Anyway.

What if Dayne Crist, Kyle Rudolph, Theo Riddick, and Armando Allen did not get injured?

Would ND have finished as strong?
Would ND still land the big name recruits (lynch, williams)?
Would we be as excited for next season?

Just wondered what you guys think.

I personally think, ND's success came from our defense. So, I think that was a matter of time for ND to get their level of success.

So, I think ND would have went 4-0 without Rees.

But I'm still impressed with Tommy's leadership and management.

Not to take anything away from the maturity that Tommy Rees showed as a true freshman forced onto possibly the biggest stage in College Football, but I really think that the success of the offense was due more to Kelly "dumbing down" the playbook, moreso than Rees' talents. I'm a fan of doing less, more effectively, over doing more with little tangible results. We can run the fullback dive 35 times a game, as long as we are averaging 400 yards and 30 points a game. I'm not sure that Kelly would have been satisfied with trying to run basic power plays, with those other guys all in there, so I'm not sure that the offense would have been as good. Not because those guys weren't better than their backups, but because the scheme might have been much different.

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

Not to take anything away from the maturity that Tommy Rees showed as a true freshman forced onto possibly the biggest stage in College Football, but I really think that the success of the offense was due more to Kelly "dumbing down" the playbook, moreso than Rees' talents. I'm a fan of doing less, more effectively, over doing more with little tangible results. We can run the fullback dive 35 times a game, as long as we are averaging 400 yards and 30 points a game. I'm not sure that Kelly would have been satisfied with trying to run basic power plays, with those other guys all in there, so I'm not sure that the offense would have been as good. Not because those guys weren't better than their backups, but because the scheme might have been much different.

I agree with the dumbing down.

It appeared to me sometimes that Dayne was overthinking plays. It almost leads me to believe that Kelly was putting to much on Dayne's plate.

I wonder how Dayne would have reacted to a dumbed down playbook.

PS, I think Dayne should/will be the starter.

 

[kmoose]

I agree with the dumbing down.

It appeared to me sometimes that Dayne was overthinking plays. It almost leads me to believe that Kelly was putting to much on Dayne's plate.

I wonder how Dayne would have reacted to a dumbed down playbook.

PS, I think Dayne should/will be the starter.

I don't think we'll ever find out. I think Kelly is an excellent coach, and most likely the right guy for bringing ND back to prominence. But, I'm not into hero worshipping the guy either. I think Kelly is entirely too arrogant to "dumb down" the playbook, when he thinks his starter can handle the full boat. He doesn't want to win with technical precision, superior talent, or over-achievement. He wants the perception to be that ND is winning because HE is a some kind of uber genius.

 

[HoosierIrish]

IF dayne didn't get hurt all year, we would have beat Michigan, and Tulsa forsure. Our success at the end of the year came from our defense. The real question is, how good would we have been IF our defense was playing like that all year.

 

[GreatGolson]

We would have gone undefeated and won the national championship.

 

[DillonHall]

We have much fewer questions marks going into next year due to the playing time that the backups received.

 

[BurningRiver]

here's what we wouldn't know:

we have at least a solid backup in tommy rees
we have a promising running back in cierre wood
we have a good young TE in eifert

i still think we would've finished just as strongly because of our defense, but it's not a given. as i was watching the games during our winning streak, and especially during the SC game, i was wondering what the outcomes would've been with crist. personally, i think we may have won by even more because our offense with crist, armando, and rudy would have been much more explosive.

but we're splitting hairs here. beggars can't be choosers.

 

[IrishBlood81]

I don't think we'll ever find out. I think Kelly is an excellent coach, and most likely the right guy for bringing ND back to prominence. But, I'm not into hero worshipping the guy either. I think Kelly is entirely too arrogant to "dumb down" the playbook, when he thinks his starter can handle the full boat. He doesn't want to win with technical precision, superior talent, or over-achievement. He wants the perception to be that ND is winning because HE is a some kind of uber genius.

I think thats a pretty extreme, overboard statement thats completely uncalled for.
I agree Kelly is arrogant (and maybe he has the skill/knowledge to be so) and into him being a good coach but to say that all he wants is that HE is seen as some Uber Genius...thats just wrong. I don't like that.

I think if thats true than you will see the players start to just hate him and have an attitude against him.


81

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

I don't think we'll ever find out. I think Kelly is an excellent coach, and most likely the right guy for bringing ND back to prominence. But, I'm not into hero worshipping the guy either. I think Kelly is entirely too arrogant to "dumb down" the playbook, when he thinks his starter can handle the full boat. He doesn't want to win with technical precision, superior talent, or over-achievement. He wants the perception to be that ND is winning because HE is a some kind of uber genius.

I don't think that at all. Kelly just wants to win games. And he'll figure out a system that works for ND.

And once he gets his offense moving... there is no stopping it.

 

[tommyIRISH23]

I don't think we'll ever find out. I think Kelly is an excellent coach, and most likely the right guy for bringing ND back to prominence. But, I'm not into hero worshipping the guy either. I think Kelly is entirely too arrogant to "dumb down" the playbook, when he thinks his starter can handle the full boat. He doesn't want to win with technical precision, superior talent, or over-achievement. He wants the perception to be that ND is winning because HE is a some kind of uber genius.

That seems a little dramatic, and fairly harsh. What has he done to lead you to make that conclusion? I don't know if I see Kelly as arrogant, I see him as confident. He rarely uses the word "me", except when taking the heat for losses. Every win it's "we" and "them". Charlie Weis came off as arrogant, not so much Brian Kelly.

Dayne was a red shirt soph who has been around college football for 3 years, why wouldn't Brian Kelly expect more out of him then a 18 year old cub scout looking freshmen? Dayne's first year comparisons to Brady Quinn, and Jimmy Clausen aren't very accurate, because they were true freshmen, that's a size able factor that must be involved when trying to determine whether or not Dayne will be on par with them.

 

[kmoose]

That seems a little dramatic, and fairly harsh. What has he done to lead you to make that conclusion?

I firmly believe (but obviously don't know for sure) that he eschewed the FG opportunity, against Tulsa, to win by a big TD pass. Everyone loves a big gambler................when the gamble pays off. I think he didn't want to be known as the guy who took the safe route, and gutted out a safe win. I think he wants to be known as the Riverboat Gambler who wins with daring and flair. That's ego. Again, I'm not trying to say that Brian Kelly is a bad coach, or that I don't like the guy. It just drives me crazy to think that he passed up a win because he would rather win flashy, than to just win.

 

[jason_h537]

Honestly think the team would have struggled down the stretch. Kelly would have kept calling on Dayne to throw the ball 40+ times. The injuries forced Kelly to adapt and the team was better for it

 

[Irish Man3]

I firmly believe (but obviously don't know for sure) that he eschewed the FG opportunity, against Tulsa, to win by a big TD pass. Everyone loves a big gambler................when the gamble pays off. I think he didn't want to be known as the guy who took the safe route, and gutted out a safe win. I think he wants to be known as the Riverboat Gambler who wins with daring and flair. That's ego. Again, I'm not trying to say that Brian Kelly is a bad coach, or that I don't like the guy. It just drives me crazy to think that he passed up a win because he would rather win flashy, than to just win.

I will have to disagree with nothing but respect. I think BK called a play that would have given a young freshman a ton of confidence. He called a rollout to one of the best wide recievers in the country. If it wasn't there he should have thrown it away. I don't agree with the call but I don't think it translates to BK and his ego.

BK always mentions his staff when it comes to this great recruiting class. He always mentions his team after a win. I have never heard him take the credit for anything. He took the fall for the play call against Tulsa. I just think he is a very proud and intelligent individual. Chuck was arrogant and that's why the media, boosters, and high school coaches didn't take well to him.

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

I will have to disagree with nothing but respect. I think BK called a play that would have given a young freshman a ton of confidence. He called a rollout to one of the best wide recievers in the country. If it wasn't there he should have thrown it away. I don't agree with the call but I don't think it translates to BK and his ego.

BK always mentions his staff when it comes to this great recruiting class. He always mentions his team after a win. I have never heard him take the credit for anything. He took the fall for the play call against Tulsa. I just think he is a very proud and intelligent individual. Chuck was arrogant and that's why the media, boosters, and high school coaches didn't take well to him.

You are right, BK wasn't trying to call a risky play. But Rees was too inexperienced to be given that call in that situation. Just run the ball and let Ruffer do his thing.

 

[kmoose]

I will have to disagree with nothing but respect. I think BK called a play that would have given a young freshman a ton of confidence. He called a rollout to one of the best wide recievers in the country. If it wasn't there he should have thrown it away. I don't agree with the call but I don't think it translates to BK and his ego.

What he said, after the game, was that Rees was directed to throw the ball down there, if Floyd got one on one coverage. That's such an incredibly low percentage pass, even to Michael Floyd. You think that winning the game wouldn't have boosted Rees' confidence? Kelly has an obligation to EVERY guy on that team. That includes all of the guys who bust their asses, day in and day out, at practice. I think that the obligation to get the team a win trumps the idea of boosting your quarterback's confidence, any day. I also wouldn't have been so upset about it, if Kelly had just come out and said something like, "In retrospect, we probably should have kicked the FG. But we felt like the way that Tommy and Michael had been clicking in practice, all week, that we had a great shot at putting the game away right there." Instead we got something to the effect of: "This is my offense. Get used to it." There was no humility in those words. I don't mind if you don't mind him taking big chances, but don't try to sell me on the fact that he didn't gamble BIG, and lose.

 

[Old Man Mike]

I can't silently stand by the computer and let the remark about Kelly being an arrogant me-firster go without saying that the remark is probably the one in all my tenure on this board that I disagree with the most. Since my further discussion of this can lead to no good result, I'll respectfully step aside on anything to do with this.

 

[Irish Man3]

I can't silently stand by the computer and let the remark about Kelly being an arrogant me-firster go without saying that the remark is probably the one in all my tenure on this board that I disagree with the most. Since my further discussion of this can lead to no good result, I'll respectfully step aside on anything to do with this.

I also strongly disagree

 

[IrishLax]

What he said, after the game, was that Rees was directed to throw the ball down there, if Floyd got one on one coverage. That's such an incredibly low percentage pass, even to Michael Floyd. You think that winning the game wouldn't have boosted Rees' confidence? Kelly has an obligation to EVERY guy on that team. That includes all of the guys who bust their asses, day in and day out, at practice. I think that the obligation to get the team a win trumps the idea of boosting your quarterback's confidence, any day. I also wouldn't have been so upset about it, if Kelly had just come out and said something like, "In retrospect, we probably should have kicked the FG. But we felt like the way that Tommy and Michael had been clicking in practice, all week, that we had a great shot at putting the game away right there." Instead we got something to the effect of: "This is my offense. Get used to it." There was no humility in those words. I don't mind if you don't mind him taking big chances, but don't try to sell me on the fact that he didn't gamble BIG, and lose.

It's not a low percentage play. We had a discussion on this a couple weeks ago (was it with you?) and statistically (ignoring that Mike Floyd is exponentially taller and more athletic than the guy covering him) a route like that has an exceedingly low chance of an interception and a pretty fair chance of completion.

When you factor just how bad Tulsa's pass defense is into the equation and how good Mike Floyd is there should be practically no chance of a pick against man on man single coverage. However, the big trump card is Rees' inexperience. Rees ended up blowing it by so much that he defied the odds... which begs the question, should BK have trusted his QB? I say yes. You, and many many others, say no. I think both opinions are pretty valid and, based on the outcome, it's pretty easy to argue that you shouldn't have a true frosh in basically his first game putting the ball in the air period when in field goal range even if it isn't a chip shot.

But just don't confuse that sound logic with the odds. Odds dictate that is a good play call on second down. It should also be noted that odds dictate going for it on 4th down far more often than coaches actually do. There is some very good research on it that I will put into a post sometime soon when I get dead time at work.

 

[kmoose]

I can't silently stand by the computer and let the remark about Kelly being an arrogant me-firster go without saying that the remark is probably the one in all my tenure on this board that I disagree with the most. Since my further discussion of this can lead to no good result, I'll respectfully step aside on anything to do with this.

Mike, we've both been around long enough to know that some criticism of a person isn't always meant as a complete indictment of the person as a whole. I think that Kelly embodies many of the best aspect of what I think a man should be, let alone what a coach should be. It just frustrates me to no end, when he takes foolish (in my opinion) risks, instead of keeping his on the prize...........a W.

 

[kmoose]

It's not a low percentage pay. We had a discussion on this a couple weeks ago (was it with you?) and statistically (ignoring that Mike Floyd is exponentially taller and more athletic than the guy covering him) a route like that has an exceedingly low chance of an interception and a pretty fair chance of completion.

When you factor just how bad Tulsa's pass defense is into the equation and how good Mike Floyd is there should be practically no chance of a pick against man on man single coverage. However, the big trump card is Rees' inexperience. Rees ended up blowing it by so much that if defied the odds... which begs the question, should BK have trusted his QB? I say yes. You, and many many others, say no. I think both opinions are pretty valid and, based on the outcome, it's pretty easy to argue that you shouldn't have a true frosh in basically his first game putting the ball in the air period when in field goal range even if it isn't a chip shot.

But just don't confuse that sound logic with the odds. Odds dictate that is a good play call on second down. It should also be noted that odds dictate going for it on 4th down far more often than coaches actually do. There is some very good research on it that I will put into a post sometime soon when I get dead time at work.

Since when is a jump ball NOT a low percentage play? I don't care if you have Kareem Abdul Jabbar out there, a jump ball is not a high percentage play. And the percentages that I speak of are not the chances of it being intercepted, but the chances of it being completed. Again I am going to reiterate that Kelly himself said that he told Rees to throw it up there, if Floyd had man coverage. "Throwing it up there" is NOT a high percentage play.

 

[Old Man Mike]

to the moose: in the interest of world pacification and not egregiously wasting your nor my energies on a non-productive topic, I'll agree to regard your characterization of Coach as a bit hyperbolic or perhaps enthusiastic-to-make-a-point, and let it go with equanimity. The uselessly long words employed by me are in the interest of further confusion and thereby further emotional dissipation. And to give dshans something to smile about.

 

[phgreek]

to the moose: in the interest of world pacification and not egregiously wasting your nor my energies on a non-productive topic, I'll agree to regard your characterization of Coach as a bit hyperbolic or perhaps enthusiastic-to-make-a-point, and let it go with equanimity. The uselessly long words employed by me are in the interest of further confusion and thereby further emotional dissipation. And to give dshans something to smile about.

...I don't know where dshans is...but thats funny...

I see where moose is coming from, in that I was pissed we lost, and I could see a path to a W when we needed a W...bad. I just don't agree regarding the characterization of Kelly. In short, I would have thrown it....Rees showed throughout the rest of the season he can make that throw, and most of the time Floyd wins the jump ball...I suspect Kelly was thinking of both team and Rees when he went for it...I would argue even in the loss, in hindsight, that was a defining moment for these guys...thereafter their execution caught up with Kelly's trust. Well...and the defense came alive...

 

[OCIrish]

I have held out judgement about the late pass against Tulsa till now. I loved that call. Look, we weren't vying for a NC so what's the differance if you call that play in that situation?

I'll tell you what that call does for us in the future. Tommy Rees learned something on that play. He threw a bad pass into double coverage and got it picked. I'd venture to say that he won't soon forget that he cost the team a win with that throw.

So, the real question and point of the post, did Tommy learn anything from that throw. If he did (and I'm betting he did) then I believe he took a major step into being a good starting QB. This isn't my endorsement of him being our starter next year, but I do think it helped prepare him for starting the last games of the season which I don't think the team would have won had he not made that mistake. Of course the defense came to play every week and the team finally found some semblance of a good rushing attack.

 

[dshans]

to the moose: in the interest of world pacification and not egregiously wasting your nor my energies on a non-productive topic, I'll agree to regard your characterization of Coach as a bit hyperbolic or perhaps enthusiastic-to-make-a-point, and let it go with equanimity. The uselessly long words employed by me are in the interest of further confusion and thereby further emotional dissipation. And to give dshans something to smile about.

Pure profundity ... or plain poppycock. :smilewink

 

[Old Man Mike]

To the High Priest: we all know what poppies can do. I'll take a nap now.

 

[irish1958]

I have held out judgement about the late pass against Tulsa till now. I loved that call. Look, we weren't vying for a NC so what's the differance if you call that play in that situation?

I'll tell you what that call does for us in the future. Tommy Rees learned something on that play. He threw a bad pass into double coverage and got it picked. I'd venture to say that he won't soon forget that he cost the team a win with that throw.

So, the real question and point of the post, did Tommy learn anything from that throw. If he did (and I'm betting he did) then I believe he took a major step into being a good starting QB. This isn't my endorsement of him being our starter next year, but I do think it helped prepare him for starting the last games of the season which I don't think the team would have won had he not made that mistake. Of course the defense came to play every week and the team finally found some semblance of a good rushing attack.

Wasn't double coverage; the safety was out of it and Floyd had the corner beat for a fade.

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

I've been watching a lot of videos on Golson, and I wouldn't be surprised if he passed Tommy on the depth chart (but Kelly still might red-shirt) so idk.

 

[Riddickulous]

I've been watching a lot of videos on Golson, and I wouldn't be surprised if he passed Tommy on the depth chart (but Kelly still might red-shirt) so idk.

The odds of Golson being any higher than fourth on the depth chart are fairly slim, IMO.


But to answer the original question, we probably would have fared worse.