'23 MO CB Christian Gray (Notre Dame Signee)

[Irishdwarte]

Are you saying that Christian Gray isn’t very good and should be benched? I’m having trouble understanding your point. Please elaborate some more

 

[NDohio]

Are you saying that Christian Gray isn’t very good and should be benched? I’m having trouble understanding your point. Please elaborate some more

You might get banned for asking him to elaborate….

 

[BeatSC]

Gray is a good college corner and has delivered against USC two years in a row. Love him for that.

If you watch last year and this years games he makes a few plays when usc has been in desperation mode but otherwise he had at least 3 PIs last year and this year plus got beat badly both games. For a small guy you would think he could keep up with guys just flying right by him. He relies on grabbing too much even when it isn’t necessary. Some plays he looks slower than others and usually tackles well but missed a few Saturday. He plays like a dawg but he will continue to be targeted. He is an adequate backup.

 

[BeatSC]

Are you saying that Christian Gray isn’t very good and should be benched? I’m having trouble understanding your point. Please elaborate some more

I think we could at least take a longer look at our options. Gray as a starter for another year puts our D in a bad position.

 

[BeatSC]

I think Gray was exhausted on the long bomb because he was playing man on motioning and streaking WRs all night with very few snaps off. Riley may be a bad HC but he's a great OC. He was doing to Gray what he did last year. Making him run 50 yard sprints following motions and horizontal routes and then dialing up a go route.

Saying that Gray wasn't putting forth effort is a complete trash take.

Ok let’s say the effort was there but the results weren’t. The SC receivers have to run as well. Gray is small and you would hope in better shape to keep up otherwise sub him out. I want him to do better as he has flashes of good play but gets a lot of attentions for repeated PIs often unnecessary.

 

[BeatSC]

Can someone forward this to Chris Ash please?

Ugh, not a highlight reel for sure. His effort and speed on the deep ball was not good. If he is hurt Ash or Freeman should speak up or replace him.

 

[greyhammer90]

Ok let’s say the effort was there but the results weren’t. The SC receivers have to run as well. Gray is small and you would hope in better shape to keep up otherwise sub him out. I want him to do better as he has flashes of good play but gets a lot of attentions for repeated PIs often unnecessary.

I really don't have a strong dog in the fight of grading Gray's CB play except that I think it's assholish for PutUp to say that Gray isn't giving effort when he's clearly competing his ass off.

If you think Gray isn't playing well, the person to complain about is Mickens, because we have no one that can play better than Gray on the roster. The reason I know that Gray is our best option is because Mickens plays Gray basically every snap of every game. So we either have no one better, or Mickens is handling his roster poorly. Neither of those things are Christian Gray's fault.

 

[Jeffwantpoppers]

If you watch last year and this years games he makes a few plays when usc has been in desperation mode but otherwise he had at least 3 PIs last year and this year plus got beat badly both games. For a small guy you would think he could keep up with guys just flying right by him. He relies on grabbing too much even when it isn’t necessary. Some plays he looks slower than others and usually tackles well but missed a few Saturday. He plays like a dawg but he will continue to be targeted. He is an adequate backup.

Sorry some of the DPI were bogus.

I don’t know what you expect but he’s a pretty good college corner. Not every DB is going to be BenMo or Moore. Not every college DB is going to shut down future NFL starters like USC has. But he made plays when it mattered and calling that desperation time is silly as the game was far from over. Does he have flaws? Yeah of course he does. I wish he was a better zone corner as a lot of his big plays happen when in zone. But he has a lot of strengths too.

Anyway, Gray had a better game than any Michigan DB the week before.

 

[Old Man Mike]

Let's see if Christian gets drafted. (I bet yes.) If so, what would that say about different IE posters' ability to evaluate?

 

[Kingbish01]

I'll give my 2 cents on Gray, and I apologize if it sounds like a back handed compliment because I do like his grit.....BUT.....He gets picked on a lot, and he makes a ton of mistakes whether it's a penalty or being out of position. But the kid has a ton of fight, and regardless of how bad the game is going for him (USC '24) he never seems to give up and ultimately makes the big play when it's needed. That being said, I'd be shocked if he plays on Sundays and if we didn't have a shutdown corner like LM....I think we'd see players like Lemon/J Smith/R Williams abuse him all night and untimely we lose those games against teams with stud WRs.

 

[InKellyWeTrust]

The reason we see Gray so often is because teams basically don't throw at Moore. Gray sees a ton of targets come his way. However, Maiva had 47% completion rate when targeting Gray, vs 68% completion rate overall this year.

 

[IRISHbluehen]

Christian Gray probably isn't what I hoped he would be when he was recruited years ago, but he's certainly not a bad college corner by any stretch of the imagination. When you're on the other side of the field of Moore, targets gotta go somewhere. He is definitely too handsy (aren't we all?) even when in good position.

I also don't really get what the alternative is, Zachary, Hobbs? I think Zachary will be good but hes not better than CG today. Hobbs has a lot to prove before he gets meaningful snaps again.

 

[bobbyok1]

I've been tough on Gray, and I still believe it is warranted.

I also love his grit and ability to forget mistakes, and make big plays on a fairly consistent basis. Do I think he will play on Sunday's? I have no idea. There are ND guys in the NFL right now who didn't even start for ND, guys I never even heard of.

So, I am sure it is possible he plays in the NFL. My assessment is limited to two primary things.

1. He gets burnt an awfut lot on Saturdays. (Famine)
2. He keeps fighting and makes a lot of big plays on a fairly consistent basis. (Feast)

I'm rooting for him to lessen the famine plays, as he doesn't really need to increase the feast play to show he belongs. He also seems like a real good kid, which makes me like him even more.

 

[irishff1014]

I've been tough on Gary, and I still believe it is warranted.

I also love his grit and ability to forget mistakes, and make big plays on a fairly consistent basis. Do I think he will play on Sunday's? I have no idea. There are ND guys in the NFL right now who didn't even start for ND, guys I never even heard of.

So, I am sure it is possible he plays in the NFL. My assessment is limited to two primary things.

1. He gets burnt an awfut lot on Saturdays. (Famine)
2. He keeps fighting and makes a lot of big plays on a fairly consistent basis. (Feast)

I'm rooting for him to lessen the famine plays, as he doesn't really need to increase to feast play to show he belongs.

I agree. One thing I will never argue is his want too. The dude keeps fighting and never gives up. That earns respect.

 

[Jiggafini19Deux]

Christian Gray probably isn't what I hoped he would be when he was recruited years ago, but he's certainly not a bad college corner by any stretch of the imagination. When you're on the other side of the field of Moore, targets gotta go somewhere. He is definitely too handsy (aren't we all?) even when in good position.

I also don't really get what the alternative is, Zachary, Hobbs? I think Zachary will be good but hes not better than CG today. Hobbs has a lot to prove before he gets meaningful snaps again.

Zackery.

 

[NorthDakota]

I dont think Gray is a stud by any means but its very normal for guys to get picked on when the other corner is such a standout.

 

[Ophiocordyceps]

Ever had that me vs the world feeling?

 

[PutuporShutup]

I really don't have a strong dog in the fight of grading Gray's CB play except that I think it's assholish for PutUp to say that Gray isn't giving effort when he's clearly competing his ass off.

If you think Gray isn't playing well, the person to complain about is Mickens, because we have no one that can play better than Gray on the roster. The reason I know that Gray is our best option is because Mickens plays Gray basically every snap of every game. So we either have no one better, or Mickens is handling his roster poorly. Neither of those things are Christian Gray's fault.

Mickens/ash played hobbs a lot vs miami, and almost all the snaps vs A&M. To only then realize how bad he is and not play him at all moving forward but some random garbage reps at the end vs NC state. To waste the fall camp on hobbs and golden playing the wrong positions stinks.

Point - Coaches aren't perfect and making mistakes with playing favorites/veterans at times.

I am completely good and agree mickens needs blame for not going portal getting a depth piece or starter at corner.

Let's see if Christian gets drafted. (I bet yes.) If so, what would that say about different IE posters' ability to evaluate?

Cool. It's a 2 phase approach though. Does he get drafted, and then either way, does he ever play. He's been on the NFL radar due to his Frosh season. He's been falling ever since then, he had a long way to fall since the potential first round label was put on him. It will be telling if he falls that far and isn't drafted at all like i think.

The reason we see Gray so often is because teams basically don't throw at Moore. Gray sees a ton of targets come his way. However, Maiva had 47% completion rate when targeting Gray, vs 68% completion rate overall this year.

That's not how you grade a corner, or tell how he's covering, but fine. He gave up 180-200 yds against USC, a TD, a 2 point, and 3 PIs. An example of why completion percentage isn't a good indicator is the A&M game, he was getting smoked all game, and Reed kept missing on the deep shots. His grade would have been very poor vs A&M even though the completion % was terrible against him. Lastly, a good QBs completion percentage is typically above 80% on throws around or behind LOS, that's why completion % is high. 47% as a corner having that done to you is NOT good, that isn't a compliment especially when you look at yards, completions, etc.

Christian Gray probably isn't what I hoped he would be when he was recruited years ago, but he's certainly not a bad college corner by any stretch of the imagination. When you're on the other side of the field of Moore, targets gotta go somewhere. He is definitely too handsy (aren't we all?) even when in good position.

I also don't really get what the alternative is, Zachary, Hobbs? I think Zachary will be good but hes not better than CG today. Hobbs has a lot to prove before he gets meaningful snaps again.

We don't have great other options, but he needs some help. Hobbs may actually be better than gray but he trained all camp at nickel. I don't think Zackery will ever be that good, just a personal opinion from watching him attempt to cover this year. He doesn't have great movement, that's the issue with gray.


In the end, i get it, gray is going to play a lot. So i sure as heck want him to be successful, but he can't be out there every snap and have such mental lapses.

 

[Dale]

The big Lemon catch right before the Lemon fumble looked as much like confusion on multiple fronts as it was Gray getting torched.

First it’s a TE and RB to the boundary and Moore and KVA follow them. With Lemon in the slot and Lane to the Field.

- Gray seems confused as to why he’s playing the slot on Lemon. He looks to Moore multiple times asking why they aren’t switching, as Moore guarded a TE on the play. Moore waved it off.

- Shuler also looks confused initially looking to Tae before telling Gray to play outside leverage, allowing Lemon to burn him inside right away. Shuler plays the sticks (3rd and 9) and Maiva clearly is looking shorter before eventually finding Lemon is wide open.

- Tae opened his hips the wrong way which I believe was influenced by Maiva looking to Lane but also potentially the previous Lane TD.

Does that mean Gray played it well? Hell no. But in a play that was reminiscent of Week 1 - 2, as usual it’s multiple components that lead to a collapse, not simply Gray being a bad player.

 

[T-Boone]

It is a shame Moore is so easily identified on the field with his height/size. It would be good to send someone out there who looks similar in a similar jersey number and hide Moore on the likely receiver every now and then. He would get a bunch of picks probably.

 

[TorontoGold]

It is a shame Moore is so easily identified on the field with his height/size. It would be good to send someone out there who looks similar in a similar jersey number and hide Moore on the likely receiver every now and then. He would get a bunch of picks probably.

Who is on the team they're playing in the hypothetical? Uncle Rico?

 

[Old Man Mike]

Dale's analysis is good. I felt that this was a coverage bust with the over the top coverage not recognizing where the danger was and Gray getting abandoned when he thought that he should have help.

 

[PutuporShutup]

Dale's analysis is good. I felt that this was a coverage bust with the over the top coverage not recognizing where the danger was and Gray getting abandoned when he thought that he should have help.

There’s a lot going on with this play, more than just gray as dale explains. With that said, after the ball is snapped you have to play football. This is a play where gray barely tried to check him at Los, whiffed, and the play was over. Lemon running wide open with no defender within 15yds . Lucky this wasn’t a td due to tae recovery speed. Gray wasn’t going to try to even catch up. Get it, it’s not ideal situation for gray but it happens vs tempo. Lemon running wide open right after the snap can’t happen . Tae had no shot as single high safety there due to grays lack of coverage in his zone. I guarantee gray was not coached to press lemon in that situation. He took himself out of the play immediately.


I will say this that also needs fixed, upon 3rd watch, our personnel. I know they went tempo but Burnham and junior can’t be out there together. Absolutely no pass rush. Lemon was wide open but maiava had all day on 3rd and 9 rushing 4.

 

[Dale]

Tae had no shot as single high safety there due to grays lack of coverage in his zone.

This is not accurate at all. Lemon crosses Tae’s face and there is zero other deep targets. Tae has every ability to get to that spot before Lemon, and the ball is likely not thrown at all.

 

[PutuporShutup]

This is not accurate at all. Lemon crosses Tae’s face and there is zero other deep targets. Tae has every ability to get to that spot before Lemon, and the ball is likely not thrown at all.

“zero other deep targets” is why tae had no shot. Gray needs to cover something or re route somewhere and not give lemon the entire middle of the field to cut either way running full speed (this is key) as an option. To me like lane earlier, I believe gray should have been running with him funneling/re routing lemon more inside. Since gray whiffed, lemon could go left or right, maiava looks right, tae goes a bit that way then lemon cuts left. Again; after gray whiffed with no recovery speed and no pressure; the play was done. Maiava was just waiting to make sure he knew where lemon was going to cut. This was almost certainly NOT the play design for usc expecting Moore on him, that’s why maiava held it so long due to busted coverage by gray and to hit more of a shot.

There’s a lot here, but the clear problem is immediately after the snap, lemon is 5 yds by gray.

 

[BeatSC]

Let's see if Christian gets drafted. (I bet yes.) If so, what would that say about different IE posters' ability to evaluate?

When you lose that bet and he doesn’t even get signed as an undrafted free agent remember to post again. Would like to know his 40 time because he has been burned a few times right out of the gate. I hope he does get drafted as I would love to see him finish strong as he has faced his toughest test of the season. I’m sure he will have some chats with Mickens over repeatedly PIs.

 

[Irish du Nord]

Zackery.

Gholstin?

 

[Rocketman84]

Dale's analysis is good. I felt that this was a coverage bust with the over the top coverage not recognizing where the danger was and Gray getting abandoned when he thought that he should have help.

It was absolutely busted coverage, Gray was playing soft Zone and the guy over the top fell asleep at the wheel.

 

[Rocketman84]

When you lose that bet and he doesn’t even get signed as an undrafted free agent remember to post again. Would like to know his 40 time because he has been burned a few times right out of the gate. I hope he does get drafted as I would love to see him finish strong as he has faced his toughest test of the season. I’m sure he will have some chats with Mickens over repeatedly PIs.

He ran 4.40 and 4.45 at Camp

 

[PutuporShutup]

He ran 4.40 and 4.45 at Camp

That was what, 4-5 years ago?

Josh Burnham was very athletic in HS.

I don't know what's going on or has been going on now for 2 years with grays lack of athleticism, hip turning, change of pace, etc. I thought he was going to be an absolute stud after his frosh year and possibly better than BenMo, I was very wrong. He's possibly playing worse than Clarence Lewis.

I know Freeman likes that Moore can take away one side of the field when he's boundary corner but I think if gray must keep playing then you need to have moore shadow the other teams top WR if a team has one, and have gray at boundary as much as possible. He has good length and needs less space to utilize the sideline as another defender.

We all hope to have a chance at playing Georgia or Alabama far into the CFP or championship game, Gray can not play even their second WR like tate to the field side. I know it's a tough ask to put moore on an island at slot or field, but that to me is a better option even vs Jeremiah Smith.