UFOs, Paranormal, Pseudoscience Thread

[IrishLion]

OMM do you recall the speeds in that investigation?

Couple of things about Lazar that a lot of people hold against him and deny him credibility.
Falsification of his Academic History, which is true but there is an explanation.
He got in trouble for getting involved with prostitution
Government claims that he didn't work at Los Alamos. Knepp and Corbell proved that he did.
George Knepp and Jeremy Corbell at least bought his story and vetted a lot of it.
Element 115. Supposed energy source for this kind of travel
Not exactly going to bat for Lazar but he was spot on and extremely specific with how these things fly. Pulled not pushed through gravity.

Interesting to note that the FBI raided him circa 2017 and a laboratory that he works at.

I don't see where Lazar has made money or tried to off his account. Seems to hate the spotlight.
I keep an open mind mind to Lazar. Our known science and what these things are capable of is hard to grasp for the scientific mind. 150 years ago we were on horse and buggy.. We go to the moon less than 100 years later, 20 years after Roswell, And anyone who argues the happenings at Roswell has a very long uphill battle. When something such as these UFOs shows this kind of superiority over technology and science, We are like an Ant trying to figure out human science. And humans carry a lot of pride and ego. Guys like Sagan and Degrass Tyson want extraordinary proof.
It's there and has been. You either see and accept or you don't.

I'm not OMM, but I think there is still a decent middle-ground there, short of "either accept it or don't, but it's there."

I think there is a lot of credibility to Lazar's reports. Some things can't be dismissed, and they make it clear that he was involved in some high-level tech stuff that he wasn't supposed to talk about.

But I wouldn't go to battle over whether "high level tech stuff" means "alien spacecraft technology" or just "stuff the government didn't want people to hear about."

Maybe he saw spacecraft. Maybe he embellished that part to cope with whatever it was he was REALLY helping with (propulsion tech related to weaponry?). Maybe he got fired and blackballed because his personal life was a mess, and it affected his work and resulted in him taking some friends out to where they shouldn't have been to cope... maybe he got fired because his personal life was a mess, and they didn't *want* it to affect his work, because he was working on classified stuff.

I give him the benefit of the doubt, but it wouldn't be crazy to learn some day that it was a case of Lazar seeing some advanced tech, and then embellishing around that as a way to deal with his ouster from the project and the destruction of his personal life as a result.

(I do still struggle with the whole "Lazar had a terrible migraine and it affected his recollection of things the day he decided to tell it to Joe Rogan" thing lol).

 

[arahop]

It seems to me that credibility of sources and converging lines of evidence is all we have to work with in public sector. I want to believe but I can’t let myself skip over all the nuances of each individual “event”

For me the Holy Grail of UFO evidence are the accounts of Gordon Cooper,. Edgar Mitchell,.Fravor, Graves. The US Government put them in charge of the most expensive machines known to man. I'm open minded to what/who they are, whether from extraterrestrial, ultra terrestrial, different dimension. Hell they could be time travelers or the maintenance workers of a simulation. There are just too many credible accounts. These things are out there. That's not even going into ancient civilizations and their structures and astrological works and alignments to the Cosmos.

 

[Sea Turtle]

Nellis Air Force Base

 

[arahop]

I'm not OMM, but I think there is still a decent middle-ground there, short of "either accept it or don't, but it's there."

I think there is a lot of credibility to Lazar's reports. Some things can't be dismissed, and they make it clear that he was involved in some high-level tech stuff that he wasn't supposed to talk about.

But I wouldn't go to battle over whether "high level tech stuff" means "alien spacecraft technology" or just "stuff the government didn't want people to hear about."

Maybe he saw spacecraft. Maybe he embellished that part to cope with whatever it was he was REALLY helping with (propulsion tech related to weaponry?). Maybe he got fired and blackballed because his personal life was a mess, and it affected his work and resulted in him taking some friends out to where they shouldn't have been to cope... maybe he got fired because his personal life was a mess, and they didn't *want* it to affect his work, because he was working on classified stuff.

I give him the benefit of the doubt, but it wouldn't be crazy to learn some day that it was a case of Lazar seeing some advanced tech, and then embellishing around that as a way to deal with his ouster from the project and the destruction of his personal life as a result.

(I do still struggle with the whole "Lazar had a terrible migraine and it affected his recollection of things the day he decided to tell it to Joe Rogan" thing lol).

I want to know what the terrible project he was on. I imagine it being an MK Ultra sort of deal. Rogan seems to be sold on Lazar's account and of course he has more knowledge from Lazar. I mean I believe in UFOs. Not the slightest idea of where the come from and I have a hard time believing Lazar it's such an extraordinary claim. I'm not saying it is or isn't but he was and seems to be very correct about Element 115 and the propulsion system. But if true, it all seems extraordinary until it isn't.

 

[Old Man Mike]

This thread is once again developing into a Lazar-allegations fest. I've explained why I believe (very Strongly) that he is a hoaxer con-man, grifter et al, and this should still exist somewhere back in this thread (maybe even twice.) So no more Lazaritis for me.

BUT, if anyone cares about the REAL Holland MI case, here's what I'm going to do: 1. State the mph data ---> The straight up "instantaneous rise" of the objects was at the minimum 1000mph (Stop---> Jump at 1000+mph --->Stop.) Jack Bushong's faster numbers are his (legitimate) estimates for the objects' between sweeps lateral jumps. My calculations there were 14,000 mph minimum. The reason for the "minimum" here is that Bushong could plot the objects exact spots on back-to-back sweeps, but couldn't tell if the objects got to their spots quicker than his sweeps and sat there for a little while.

2. I'll attach one of my research sheets to this post. It is my graphing of the Graves family observations. They are the only Close Encounter witnesses who have been willing to put up with the media. They saw only lights circling, but assumed that these were attached to a larger object. If the object had stealth as to it main structure, then neither the witnesses nor any simple cameras would have picked it up.

3. In a second post, I'll attach two of my pages of the Center for UFO Studies journal article. The second page contains two examples of the radarscope drawings I made in station.

4 There was a comment that Bushong was forced to retire. Wherever that came from Bushong himself has said that is BS. He took his transfer to the Atlanta station because that was a huge move up and always his plan. He retired there ultimately, also according to life plan.

 

[Old Man Mike]

 

[Old Man Mike]

 

[arahop]

Awesome OMM!
Mike. What's your thesis of what they are, Extraterrestrials, Ultraterrestrials, Interdimensional, etc?

 

[Old Man Mike]

The credible phenomenon is almost entirely nuts-and-bolts appearing using technology tricks which we cannot duplicate and cannot understand. Given that, the simplest sufficient hypothesis is that these things are flying tech originating with inventing civilizations very far from here but within our seeable Universe. They aren't magic (i.e. violate our crude textbook views of the universe) and will in time be seen to fit in nicely to our textbooks (i.e. they are a relatively small expansion of our worldview, unlike the large expansion that anything "paranormal" would require --- my personal "textbook" will accept paranormal things quite easily, as well a "Catholic" spiritual categories of things, but UFOs do not seem to require any leap of that magnitude.)

The several thousand best cases have the air of "cold" machine-like precision about them --- not at all "organic" nor "personal." This is technology operated by intelligences who for whatever their reasons are (do NOT try to invent personalities for them. That is HUGE hubris.) they are interested in being here. They want to show us that they are but in the cleverest of ways --- just enough to stun the witnesses, but not nearly enough to establish in our general societal consciousness the FEELING that they are right here, right on top of us. And that status they have managed brilliantly for 80 fairly intense years of sightings. We have NO idea really of what "Wizard of OZ" hides behind the Curtain. If someone tells you that they know, just call BS.

I stay involved with this because it has been fun to research a true mystery. I have discovered a few things that no one else has (such as that the operators know exactly where the witnesses are down to the foot at the time they decide to display --- a somewhat creepy thought) and therefore feel that my time has not been wasted. The pursuit has also allowed me unusual access to many things beyond what the public can read, hear, and is even willing to make the effort to dig into. (a crude example is knowing how Bob Lazar grifted billionaire Bob Bigelow (of Bigelow Aerospace) out of tens of thousands of dollars claiming he would build him a UFO model. All this while operating a porn site for which he was found guilty in court. --- i.e. at the crudest level it allows me to scrape the crud away. ANYONE, by the way, of ANY science training can make esoteric bullsh!t up and continue the same simple tale --- Lazar's IS simple --- for decades. All you have to do is read a few journals and a few UFO books and write your fiction down.) On the more pleasant side, being willing to really dig in has allowed me access to knowledge bases like the French government's studies, Allen Hynek's own files, all the USAF FOIA materials, etc.

 

[bobbyok1]

As a Christian, I enjoy listening to Michael S. Heiser with regards to the paranormal. His aim is to discuss the academic/peer reviewed elements of paranormal happenings.

Peeranormal

Check out this great listen on Audible.com. Discussing Peer-Reviewed Research on the Paranormal © 2021 Peeranormal...

www.audible.com

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

View attachment 3051951

OMM my family is from Muskegon and my mother was adopted from a Catholic orphanage in Grand Rapids. Been to Holland several times. I had no idea this happened here. I gotta check this out.

 

[Old Man Mike]

Heiser doesn't believe in anything extraterrestrial, but he is an informed commentator and I believe that he uses the word "believe" in its more profound meaning of things that he is seriously committed to even though he cannot prove them in the way science uses "Proof." He would say that he believes in GOD, Soul, angels, demons because these are important in his view, but not believe in extraterrestrials, because their existence doesn't matter (profoundly) to him either way. Most Catholic scientists, including myself, would answer in those terms the same way. ET really doesn't matter to me (compared to GOD, Soul, etc) because the Divine Plan of Creation goes on either way.

BUT, the word "believe" is so poorly used (especially by the country's slobbering extended juveniles) that you cannot answer questions like "do you believe in extraterrestrials, or UFOs, or whatevers" without a somewhat lengthy definition of terms and context, which slobbering juveniles don't want to be bothered with.

Mainly I have to give Heisler a thumbs up, though, because he likes my book. "This book is (to date) the most comprehensive review of official government documents related to the UFO phenomenon. It was put together by interested academics (some are or were professors at various universities in the US and abroad) who are veteran UFO researchers. The book proves beyond a doubt that the official government line about being disinterested in the topic is simply put, a lie."

 

[GATTACA!]

4 There was a comment that Bushong was forced to retire. Wherever that came from Bushong himself has said that is BS. He took his transfer to the Atlanta station because that was a huge move up and always his plan. He retired there ultimately, also according to life plan.

That came from him in the Netflix episode. Maybe it was convenient editing, but idk how else you could read what he said other than him being forced out.

 

[NDGOLDEN]

I just noticed this thread so I didn’t read through all 21 pages but I was wondering if anyone has watched Fringe? One of my favorite shows on theories of another universe that is the same as ours but your double is just slightly different than you.

I also love that they use pseudoscience and the ways they try to figure out the murders and phenomenons

 

[Irish#1]

OMM……Are you familiar with Terry Lovelace? Contacted while camping in Arkansas. Interesting that they found foreign objects embedded in his leg.

 

[arahop]

The credible phenomenon is almost entirely nuts-and-bolts appearing using technology tricks which we cannot duplicate and cannot understand. Given that, the simplest sufficient hypothesis is that these things are flying tech originating with inventing civilizations very far from here but within our seeable Universe. They aren't magic (i.e. violate our crude textbook views of the universe) and will in time be seen to fit in nicely to our textbooks (i.e. they are a relatively small expansion of our worldview, unlike the large expansion that anything "paranormal" would require --- my personal "textbook" will accept paranormal things quite easily, as well a "Catholic" spiritual categories of things, but UFOs do not seem to require any leap of that magnitude.)

The several thousand best cases have the air of "cold" machine-like precision about them --- not at all "organic" nor "personal." This is technology operated by intelligences who for whatever their reasons are (do NOT try to invent personalities for them. That is HUGE hubris.) they are interested in being here. They want to show us that they are but in the cleverest of ways --- just enough to stun the witnesses, but not nearly enough to establish in our general societal consciousness the FEELING that they are right here, right on top of us. And that status they have managed brilliantly for 80 fairly intense years of sightings. We have NO idea really of what "Wizard of OZ" hides behind the Curtain. If someone tells you that they know, just call BS.

I stay involved with this because it has been fun to research a true mystery. I have discovered a few things that no one else has (such as that the operators know exactly where the witnesses are down to the foot at the time they decide to display --- a somewhat creepy thought) and therefore feel that my time has not been wasted. The pursuit has also allowed me unusual access to many things beyond what the public can read, hear, and is even willing to make the effort to dig into. (a crude example is knowing how Bob Lazar grifted billionaire Bob Bigelow (of Bigelow Aerospace) out of tens of thousands of dollars claiming he would build him a UFO model. All this while operating a porn site for which he was found guilty in court. --- i.e. at the crudest level it allows me to scrape the crud away. ANYONE, by the way, of ANY science training can make esoteric bullsh!t up and continue the same simple tale --- Lazar's IS simple --- for decades. All you have to do is read a few journals and a few UFO books and write your fiction down.) On the more pleasant side, being willing to really dig in has allowed me access to knowledge bases like the French government's studies, Allen Hynek's own files, all the USAF FOIA materials, etc.

I've read the French Government report. Really wish the US would follow suit. It's looking like that's where it's headed. Hynek is tough for me. He at least came around but his job was to be a " company man" debunker and in my opinion is partly responsible for the stigma we still see today. Sagan wrote something early on "pro" UFO and then caved to the stigma. You would know better than people on here but from the outside, I wish Hynek would have done more after leaving his post. Donald Keyhoe is an American hero. I can't think of many who took the subject as serious as him in the early stages. He didn't back down from anyone. The Phoenix Lights was an amazing mass sighting. Those giant UFOs are the ones that blow my mind. That should have been world changing news but our Government and Media has their own agenda as King Dick

 

[Old Man Mike]

Never heard of Lovelace. If he claims an implant, I say "show me the money." Where's the implant? Where's the testing? Where's the unusual properties of the metal or the unusual structure and functionality? None of these guys ever deliver. If they don't or can't then what do I have? He claims mental stability at the same time he claims PTSD over years. PTSD is often combined with Cover Fantasies to deal with whatever caused the PTSD. Everything he says MIGHT be true, and nothing might. Does his independent witness have credible interviews from credible researchers?

 

[Old Man Mike]

Bushong said flat that nothing bad happened concerning his job, and his actual job record shows that to be true. On the other hand he said that he did not like the public continuously trying to interface with his private life, so he was happy to get as much anonymity as he could.

 

[GATTACA!]

Bushong said flat that nothing bad happened concerning his job, and his actual job record shows that to be true. On the other hand he said that he did not like the public continuously trying to interface with his private life, so he was happy to get as much anonymity as he could.

I just went back and rewatched that section to make sure I wasn't misrepresenting what he said.

First he recounts a story about how after these events happened one day he came into the office and his coworkers had hung "flying saucers" all over the office made out of paper plates. Mocking him.

He says the national weather service wanted to sweep it under the rug as fast as possible. He was told not to talk to any media outlets and he says he was sure that they would have had no problem ruining his career if he had disobeyed.

He says later when he talked to his supervisor Leo about the effect these events were having on him Leo told him "Jack you have to get out of Michigan." He then goes on to say he "I knew I had to hurry up and get a job to wherever I could based solely because of this UFO event." And he says he was depressed to have to do so.

 

[arahop]

I just went back and rewatched that section to make sure I wasn't misrepresenting what he said.

First he recounts a story about how after these events happened one day he came into the office and his coworkers had hung "flying saucers" all over the office made out of paper plates. Mocking him.

He says the national weather service wanted to sweep it under the rug as fast as possible. He was told not to talk to any media outlets and he says he was sure that they would have had no problem ruining his career if he had disobeyed.

He says later when he talked to his supervisor Leo about the effect these events were having on him Leo told him "Jack you have to get out of Michigan." He then goes on to say he "I knew I had to hurry up and get a job to wherever I could based solely because of this UFO event." And he says he was depressed to have to do so.

The stigma is wild to me. Of course there will always be people who tells stories that never happened to them, that will go on until the end of times.

I think the reason for the stigma is It challenges every Religion and and every authority in the World. We have more proof of what's going on here than any major religion ( not knocking religion) I have a feeling these could be tied into it. Seems like whatever they are, they're trying not to let us destroy ourselve. They seem to be heavily monitoring nuclear and military bases.

Imagine being the US or Russia and having these things shit down your nuclear facility... Many accounts of this. I think that's why "leading Countries" have adopted the Denial and we don't know or we don't have enough evidence.

 

[Irish#1]

Never heard of Lovelace. If he claims an implant, I say "show me the money." Where's the implant? Where's the testing? Where's the unusual properties of the metal or the unusual structure and functionality? None of these guys ever deliver. If they don't or can't then what do I have? He claims mental stability at the same time he claims PTSD over years. PTSD is often combined with Cover Fantasies to deal with whatever caused the PTSD. Everything he says MIGHT be true, and nothing might. Does his independent witness have credible interviews from credible researchers?

He was an EMT and medic in the Air Force, earned a law degree from the University of Michigan, worked as both a defense attorney and in the offices of the attorney general. His story was one featured in the Netflix series Top Secret UFO Projects Declassified. He and an EMT friend were camping in Arkansas. Years later ended up in the hospital. Xrays showed he had a small cluster of metal objects in his leg along with a square piece, but no signs of an incision or scar.

Here's the first article that comes up in a quick google search

One Man's UFO Story: Author discusses lifetime of extraterrestrial encounters | Northwest Arkansas Democrat-Gazette

It's hard to dismiss Terry Lovelace as a crazy man. He was an EMT and medic in the Air Force, earned a law degree from the University of Michigan, worked as both a defense attorney and in the offices of the attorney general -- oh, and he's been married to the same woman for 46 years and raised a...

www.nwaonline.com

 

[bobbyok1]

Heiser doesn't believe in anything extraterrestrial, but he is an informed commentator and I believe that he uses the word "believe" in its more profound meaning of things that he is seriously committed to even though he cannot prove them in the way science uses "Proof." He would say that he believes in GOD, Soul, angels, demons because these are important in his view, but not believe in extraterrestrials, because their existence doesn't matter (profoundly) to him either way. Most Catholic scientists, including myself, would answer in those terms the same way. ET really doesn't matter to me (compared to GOD, Soul, etc) because the Divine Plan of Creation goes on either way.

BUT, the word "believe" is so poorly used (especially by the country's slobbering extended juveniles) that you cannot answer questions like "do you believe in extraterrestrials, or UFOs, or whatevers" without a somewhat lengthy definition of terms and context, which slobbering juveniles don't want to be bothered with.

Mainly I have to give Heisler a thumbs up, though, because he likes my book. "This book is (to date) the most comprehensive review of official government documents related to the UFO phenomenon. It was put together by interested academics (some are or were professors at various universities in the US and abroad) who are veteran UFO researchers. The book proves beyond a doubt that the official government line about being disinterested in the topic is simply put, a lie."

Great commentary on Heiser, OMM. I appreciate your informed take on him and it's pretty cool that he gave your book a "thumbs up" as well. I'd really like to read your book OMM, is it available online? Or maybe you are choosing to remain anonymous on IE. Either way, I'd be interested to purchase a copy

 

[arahop]

Heisler doesn't believe in anything extraterrestrial, I can't understand that. Not only is it most likely wrong, it's a mathematical impossibility that there isn't other intelligent life. And by intelligent, think of a civilization with 10k or even 100k years of growth or more beyond us. Religion has a funny way of doing that. The Bible says Man has dominion on Earth, doesn't say anything about the entire Universe. But we are very egotistical in nature so it makes sense why the super religious can't fathom it.

 

[Old Man Mike]

Hello, Bobby.
The book is UFOs and Government by Michael Swords and Robert Powell (there were others involved but I wrote 60=70% of it, and Robert wrote some and did the heavy-lifting on editing, so we got prime authorship designations.) To my knowledge it is still available from Anomalist Press, and was recently still available through Amazon as well.

If anyone's interested, I've never gotten a dime for my 5 years work on the book. Sales in the UFO category are few (everyone wants to absorb garbage off TV and the internet for free and remain stupid on these subjects --- UNLIKE your guy Heiser) so the minimal royalty which has ever come to us is just given to Robert to help maintain a website for data storage. I also never got paid for productions by Peter Jennings group, nor several History channel productions, nor Canadian BBC, nor UFO Hunters (on this same Holland MI case --- which they as usual totally botched), nor several others. The only guys who ever paid me for UFO work were Bob Bigelow (a little) and Lawrence Rockefeller ($3000.) So I ain't gettin' rich.

 

[Sea Turtle]

Heisler doesn't believe in anything extraterrestrial, I can't understand that. Not only is it most likely wrong, it's a mathematical impossibility that there isn't other intelligent life. And by intelligent, think of a civilization with 10k or even 100k years of growth or more beyond us. Religion has a funny way of doing that. The Bible says Man has dominion on Earth, doesn't say anything about the entire Universe. But we are very egotistical in nature so it makes sense why the super religious can't phantom it.

Even though I don't believe in extraterrestrials, I find the topic, as well as cryptozoology, interesting.

OMM is a treasure trove o information and we are lucky to have him on here.

 

[bobbyok1]

Hello, Bobby.
The book is UFOs and Government by Michael Swords and Robert Powell (there were others involved but I wrote 60=70% of it, and Robert wrote some and did the heavy-lifting on editing, so we got prime authorship designations.) To my knowledge it is still available from Anomalist Press, and was recently still available through Amazon as well.

If anyone's interested, I've never gotten a dime for my 5 years work on the book. Sales in the UFO category are few (everyone wants to absorb garbage off TV and the internet for free and remain stupid on these subjects --- UNLIKE your guy Heiser) so the minimal royalty which has ever come to us is just given to Robert to help maintain a website for data storage. I also never got paid for productions by Peter Jennings group, nor several History channel productions, nor Canadian BBC, nor UFO Hunters (on this same Holland MI case --- which they as usual totally botched), nor several others. The only guys who ever paid me for UFO work were Bob Bigelow (a little) and Lawrence Rockefeller ($3000.) So I ain't gettin' rich.

Thank you sir, I am picking up a copy and look forward to the read!

Here are links for any others interested in OMM's book

UFOs and Government: A Historical Inquiry

Governments around the world have had to deal with the UFO phenomenon for a good part of a century. How and why they did so is the subject of UFOs and Government, a history that for the first time tells the story from the perspective of the governments themselves. It's a perspective that reveals...

shop.aer.io

 

[arahop]

Look

Even though I don't believe in extraterrestrials, I find the topic, as well as cryptozoology, interesting.

OMM is a treasure trove o information and we are lucky to have him on here.

Like we are it in the whole Cosmos or just don't believe that Earth has been visited by them?
There is a Joe Rogan Podcast with Jacques Vallee and James Fox they is worth the time They go into detail about a Police officer who's had a close encounter of the 3rd Kind in Socorro New Mexico in 1964, that according to Vallee, changed Dr Hyneks mind about ETs. Another amazing incident is the Ruma Africa incident where a mass sighting of children at a school saw a craft land and Beings came out and communicated telepathicly.
Gordon Cooper US Astronaut as mentioned above witnessed a landing on a military base. Not trying to change your mind but it may blur the lines a little

 

[arahop]

The

Hello, Bobby.
The book is UFOs and Government by Michael Swords and Robert Powell (there were others involved but I wrote 60=70% of it, and Robert wrote some and did the heavy-lifting on editing, so we got prime authorship designations.) To my knowledge it is still available from Anomalist Press, and was recently still available through Amazon as well.

If anyone's interested, I've never gotten a dime for my 5 years work on the book. Sales in the UFO category are few (everyone wants to absorb garbage off TV and the internet for free and remain stupid on these subjects --- UNLIKE your guy Heiser) so the minimal royalty which has ever come to us is just given to Robert to help maintain a website for data storage. I also never got paid for productions by Peter Jennings group, nor several History channel productions, nor Canadian BBC, nor UFO Hunters (on this same Holland MI case --- which they as usual totally botched), nor several others. The only guys who ever paid me for UFO work were Bob Bigelow (a little) and Lawrence Rockefeller ($3000.) So I ain't gettin' rich.

Fantastic work Mike. Loved the Book. It even led my Father in Law to open his mind about the phenomenon which is a great feat if you knew the man

 

[Sea Turtle]

Look

Like we are it in the whole Cosmos or just don't believe that Earth has been visited by them?
There is a Joe Rogan Podcast with Jacques Vallee and James Fox they is worth the time They go into detail about a Police officer who's had a close encounter of the 3rd Kind in Socorro New Mexico in 1964, that according to Vallee, changed Dr Hyneks mind about ETs. Another amazing incident is the Ruma Africa incident where a mass sighting of children at a school saw a craft land and Beings came out and communicated telepathicly.
Gordon Cooper US Astronaut as mentioned above witnessed a landing on a military base. Not trying to change your mind but it may blur the lines a little

There are a lot of really interesting and credible experiences. I just don't believe they are extraterrestrials. I believe that earth is unique in having intelligent life and even having life on down to the form of bacteria.

Even if there were another perfect unique example of a planet that could theoretically support life, something has to create and put the life there. A big bang of life, you might say.

Now, I am a man of faith and that is the lens of my view. It's not the same as some. Some believe in life out there and that's interesting.

 

[BobbyMac]

OMM my family is from Muskegon and my mother was adopted from a Catholic orphanage in Grand Rapids. Been to Holland several times. I had no idea this happened here. I gotta check this out.

Back in the 80's we saw something that caught the attention of the military while at the beach near the IN/MI state line. I quoted you because my buddy who first noticed this was adopted from a Catholic orphanage in Grand Rapids and raised in South Haven until his family moved to Michigan City. He just turned 60 last month.