UND News (General)

[tko]

Miscamble for President!

Sports would definitely be finished.

 

[NorthDakota]

Because the pool of high achieving Ph.D.’s you’re selecting from is overwhelmingly left leaning. So unless you want to choose to actively insert political bias into your hiring process and select less qualified people there is no changing how the numbers will naturally shake out.

Yeah I think about all you could really do is try to filter out the overtly political applicants who are going to be more trouble than they are worth but that will only be so effective.

 

[Irish YJ]

Because the pool of high achieving Ph.D.’s you’re selecting from is overwhelmingly left leaning. So unless you want to choose to actively insert political bias into your hiring process and select less qualified people there is no changing how the numbers will naturally shake out.

I think it could be positioned as trying to attain bias balance rather than inserting bias. I do agree that PhDs being left leaning. Professional students turn into PhDs trying to pump out more professional students, who......

Another potential angle is to simply require work experience for some prof positions. That would cut down on the professional student / lib prof element. It would be nice if we could just remove all politics, from non-political studies. A boy can dream....

 

[RDU Irish]

Because the pool of high achieving Ph.D.’s you’re selecting from is overwhelmingly left leaning. So unless you want to choose to actively insert political bias into your hiring process and select less qualified people there is no changing how the numbers will naturally shake out.

Could have lived without Mayor Pete on payroll for example. Maybe check the Facebook/Twitter feeds and steer clear of raging intolerant d-bags?

 

[IrishLax]

I think it could be positioned as trying to attain bias balance rather than inserting bias. I do agree that PhDs being left leaning. Professional students turn into PhDs trying to pump out more professional students, who......

Another potential angle is to simply require work experience for some prof positions. That would cut down on the professional student / lib prof element. It would be nice if we could just remove all politics, from non-political studies. A boy can dream....

What we're really talking about is the fact that Notre Dame having the most conservative faculty of any top 20 school by a country mile is, for some, not good enough. In fact, I would guess that Notre Dame's faculty is also more conservative on the whole than any Big Ten school, but that would be just a guess without data to back it up.

Notre Dame's faculty skews to the right relative to its peers because of 1) religious affiliation 2) location 3) emphasis on undergraduate education rather than prestige-whoring graduate research. There are mechanisms to drive Notre Dame further to the right than where it already is, but it's very hard to make the case that any of them would result in a better or more qualified faculty. With that being said, many of the most successful departments at Notre Dame are the ones that skew furthest to the right.

 

[Irish YJ]

What we're really talking about is the fact that Notre Dame having the most conservative faculty of any top 20 school by a country mile is, for some, not good enough. In fact, I would guess that Notre Dame's faculty is also more conservative on the whole than any Big Ten school, but that would be just a guess without data to back it up.

Notre Dame's faculty skews to the right relative to its peers because of 1) religious affiliation 2) location 3) emphasis on undergraduate education rather than prestige-whoring graduate research. There are mechanisms to drive Notre Dame further to the right than where it already is, but it's very hard to make the case that any of them would result in a better or more qualified faculty. With that being said, many of the most successful departments at Notre Dame are the ones that skew furthest to the right.

I don't disagree with any of the above. I'm curious though how we stack up to other Catholic colleges/universities.

 

[domer13]

Because the pool of high achieving Ph.D.’s you’re selecting from is overwhelmingly left leaning. So unless you want to choose to actively insert political bias into your hiring process and select less qualified people there is no changing how the numbers will naturally shake out.

https://www.preposterousuniverse.co...harbi-on-the-value-of-intellectual-diversity/

Interesting podcast about these topics. As to the bolded - the expert guest said that the number of high achieving PhDs actually is still fairly balanced politically, but that the applicant pool for university positions is overwhelmingly left leaning . The high achieving right leaning PhDs are far more likely to apply/be hired (recruited?) at private research institutes (i.e. think tanks).

The huge swing to the left in the academies coincides with the rise of think tanks in the last few decades, according to the guest on the podcast.

 

[Irish YJ]

https://www.preposterousuniverse.co...harbi-on-the-value-of-intellectual-diversity/

Interesting podcast about these topics. As to the bolded - the expert guest said that the number of high achieving PhDs actually is still fairly balanced politically, but that the applicant pool for university positions is overwhelmingly left leaning . The high achieving right leaning PhDs are far more likely to apply/be hired (recruited?) at private research institutes (i.e. think tanks).

The huge swing to the left in the academies coincides with the rise of think tanks in the last few decades, according to the guest on the podcast.

IDK, there are plenty of lefty think tanks. You'd think the would drain the talent pool at near equal rates.

 

[NDPhilly]

I don't disagree with any of the above. I'm curious though how we stack up to other Catholic colleges/universities.

I graduated from Fordham a few years back and my feeling is that ND’s is significantly more Conservative (student body and faculty) than Fordham. Nova and BC I think are relatively conservative too. Fordham’s students are closer to Georgetown politically - very liberal/secular for the most part.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

What we're really talking about is the fact that Notre Dame having the most conservative faculty of any top 20 school by a country mile is, for some, not good enough. In fact, I would guess that Notre Dame's faculty is also more conservative on the whole than any Big Ten school, but that would be just a guess without data to back it up.

Notre Dame's faculty skews to the right relative to its peers because of 1) religious affiliation 2) location 3) emphasis on undergraduate education rather than prestige-whoring graduate research. There are mechanisms to drive Notre Dame further to the right than where it already is, but it's very hard to make the case that any of them would result in a better or more qualified faculty. With that being said, many of the most successful departments at Notre Dame are the ones that skew furthest to the right.

This is all accurate, but I don't think ND should be aiming to achieve a certain sweet spot between the American left and right (which is inherently unstable anyway). I don't want ND to become more "conservative" in the sense of Liberty University. I want ND to be more Catholic, which means less liberal (in the philosophical sense) and, to the extent we have to be political, more Third Way.

No institution can long survive when it tolerates factions that are explicitly hostile to its core mission. That's why I get so exercised about the Gender Studies department, Irish 4 Reproductive Choice, etc. These ideologies are incompatible with a Catholic education, so we can either start actively marginalizing them with the goal of eventually expelling them entirely, or they will continue to undermine the community from within like a cancer.

ND can't "balance them out" by hiring from places like the Acton Institute or the Heritage Foundation. Be Catholic or die.

 

[Irish YJ]

I graduated from Fordham a few years back and my feeling is that ND’s is significantly more Conservative (student body and faculty) than Fordham. Nova and BC I think are relatively conservative too. Fordham’s students are closer to Georgetown politically - very liberal/secular for the most part.

Thanks Philly. Fordham is Jesuit, right? Which might explain a more liberal lean.

This is all accurate, but I don't think ND should be aiming to achieve a certain sweet spot between the American left and right (which is inherently unstable anyway). I don't want ND to become more "conservative" in the sense of Liberty University. I want ND to be more Catholic, which means less liberal (in the philosophical sense) and, to the extent we have to be political, more Third Way.

No institution can long survive when it tolerates factions that are explicitly hostile to its core mission. That's why I get so exercised about the Gender Studies department, Irish 4 Reproductive Choice, etc. These ideologies are incompatible with a Catholic education, so we can either start actively marginalizing them with the goal of eventually expelling them entirely, or they will continue to undermine the community from within like a cancer.

ND can't "balance them out" by hiring from places like the Acton Institute or the Heritage Foundation. Be Catholic or die.

As to the 2 bolded above.

Never thought I'd see you as pro 3-way.

Kidding. Actually a fan of the 3rd way, which is why I was OK with the Clinton days, and of few other politicians. I'm just not sure it's viable right now given the all or nothing attack from both sides. The 3rd way to me was always attune to simple or moderate common sense, which we don't seem to have as a populace right now. Not sure it has much to do with the morality issues though that may be a portion of your concerns.

As to the second bolded. What is your feeling about Jenkins. My family's favorite priest (retired) back home thinks he's way too liberal and let things go a bit too far. I was pretty surprised at some of the stuff I heard, not because it was shocking in general in this day in age, but surprised it was allowed at ND. That said, having a hard time understanding why the left is trying to eat its own, assuming he is actually considered left.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Love thee.

 

[Legacy]

Love thee.

From ND Magazine and Matt Cashore

As the Advent season begins and 2020 mercifully comes to an end, students have gone home for winter break and the Notre Dame campus has become a place of quiet reflection.

 

[Legacy]

A couple of photos by Matt Cashore of ND at Christmas.

https://notredame.photoshelter.com/image/I000014wep0JnrDk

https://notredame.photoshelter.com/image/I00001VQL8mMjpLA

 

[CANONIZEFATHERSORIN]

Irish rise to #18 in US News and World Report rankings ending long slide. If we would have lost to Marshall and declined in USNWR same week I would have had to burn my degree. Hopefully the admin gets its head on straight and starts investing in merit scholarships and intensive research instead of more new dorms (why???) so we can get this university up to the level of esteem it deserves.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

Cashore is a phenomenal follow on social media.

 

[Domina Nostra]

Irish rise to #18 in US News and World Report rankings ending long slide. If we would have lost to Marshall and declined in USNWR same week I would have had to burn my degree. Hopefully the admin gets its head on straight and starts investing in merit scholarships and intensive research instead of more new dorms (why???) so we can get this university up to the level of esteem it deserves.

Yuck.

 

[CANONIZEFATHERSORIN]

Yuck.

Are you not happy about the good news for the university? Like it or not these rankings matter to people and if we want the applicant pool to Notre Dame to consist of anything besides Midwestern Catholics (we do) they better get to work on raising it. To continue expanding the university's profile, we need that Asian kid from Seattle who wants a career in finance and just got waitlisted at UPenn to come here. The ranking plays a apart in that.

 

[NDPhilly]

The older alumni already think the school is admitting too many nerd ivy league rejects who dont care about ND.

 

[Rack Em]

Are you not happy about the good news for the university? Like it or not these rankings matter to people and if we want the applicant pool to Notre Dame to consist of anything besides Midwestern Catholics (we do) they better get to work on raising it. To continue expanding the university's profile, we need that Asian kid from Seattle who wants a career in finance and just got waitlisted at UPenn to come here. The ranking plays a apart in that.

Who's "we"? You got a turd in your pocket?

I'd rather be #30 and be all Midwestern Catholics. Way too many Ivy League rejects and kids who take the best school who accepts them. That is how Notre Dame becomes indistinguishable from Northwestern.

And, in case it needs to be stated out loud, Northwestern sucks, has zero culture, and is full of nerds.

 

[CANONIZEFATHERSORIN]

The older alumni already think the school is admitting too many nerd ivy league rejects who dont care about ND.

Dude the school remains 81% catholic or even more, something like that. The traditional identity of the school is not in danger in any way, the "nd type" of kids continue to select into the school and there are still an unbelievable amount of legacies there. Also I hate the "ivy league reject" canard - we have lots of kids who could have, and were, admitted to the lower tier ivies. And I think older alumni tend to have a very silly view of what the old ND masculinity was with the whole "nerd" dig. They always talk about how tough interhall was, trying to idealize silly pick up football games. We want nerds! ND should be a nerdy, intellectual place. I don't care at all about getting sort of smart kids who loved ND when they were 10 because of their grandpa or whatever, I want really smart kids who love ND at 22 because of the experience they had there. I think a lot of old alumni don't understand the current identity of the place. What ND does best now is feeding kids into elite finance in Manhattan. We need to push our competitive advantage as hard as possible.

Who's "we"? You got a turd in your pocket?

I'd rather be #30 and be all Midwestern Catholics. Way too many Ivy League rejects and kids who take the best school who accepts them. That is how Notre Dame becomes indistinguishable from Northwestern.

And, in case it needs to be stated out loud, Northwestern sucks, has zero culture, and is full of nerds.

Obviously I'm talking about the collective identity of the institution which I identify strongly with. Same thing as using "we" for the football team. Your scatological dig at me is going to make any efforts at dialogue difficult. The idea of being a mediocre institution filled with kids who did pretty good at Little Sisters of the Poor High in Akron makes me wanna vomit. I want the smartest kids we can possibly get. I want ND to be an incredibly intellectual place. I don't have a very high opinion of NW either but ND is in 0 danger of becoming just another top school. It's still run by an order of celibate philosopher-priests, for God's sake. Priests still administer discipline in the (mandatory) dorms. We are distinctive among the top 30 institutions in the country and will remain so - but we also remain without basically any (excepting philosophy and theology, of course lol) serious graduate programs and no Nobel laureates on the faculty. That needs to change, and it can with the right sort of institutional commitment.

 

[Irish du Nord]

Dude the school remains 81% catholic or even more, something like that. The traditional identity of the school is not in danger in any way, the "nd type" of kids continue to select into the school and there are still an unbelievable amount of legacies there. Also I hate the "ivy league reject" canard - we have lots of kids who could have, and were, admitted to the lower tier ivies. And I think older alumni tend to have a very silly view of what the old ND masculinity was with the whole "nerd" dig. They always talk about how tough interhall was, trying to idealize silly pick up football games. We want nerds! ND should be a nerdy, intellectual place. I don't care at all about getting sort of smart kids who loved ND when they were 10 because of their grandpa or whatever, I want really smart kids who love ND at 22 because of the experience they had there. I think a lot of old alumni don't understand the current identity of the place. What ND does best now is feeding kids into elite finance in Manhattan. We need to push our competitive advantage as hard as possible.


Obviously I'm talking about the collective identity of the institution which I identify strongly with. Same thing as using "we" for the football team. Your scatological dig at me is going to make any efforts at dialogue difficult. The idea of being a mediocre institution filled with kids who did pretty good at Little Sisters of the Poor High in Akron makes me wanna vomit. I want the smartest kids we can possibly get. I want ND to be an incredibly intellectual place. I don't have a very high opinion of NW either but ND is in 0 danger of becoming just another top school. It's still run by an order of celibate philosopher-priests, for God's sake. Priests still administer discipline in the (mandatory) dorms. We are distinctive among the top 30 institutions in the country and will remain so - but we also remain without basically any (excepting philosophy and theology, of course lol) serious graduate programs and no Nobel laureates on the faculty. That needs to change, and it can with the right sort of institutional commitment.

We have kids that were admitted to upper league ivies too for whatever that’s worth

 

[CANONIZEFATHERSORIN]

We have kids that were admitted to upper league ivies too for whatever that’s worth

Yep a few! I'm sure there's a couple kids a year who got into Harvard/Yale/Stanford/MIT/Princeton (the only schools, in my opinion that are a clear cut above us academically) for instead the Glynn/Hesburgh-Yusko path and the character formation only ND can provide. Look guys, I'm so passionate about this because I had no idea what ND was beyond an elite school when I was 18, and it saved my soul. This institution and its putative mission - to become a world-leading Catholic university on par with the great Medieval Universities - means a LOT to me, and I think there are clear steps the Dome can take to better ND academically.

 

[ab2cmiller]

Most of what it would take for ND to climb higher in the rankings would require ND to become a true research university. Doing so would certainly result in positives, but it would also come at a cost. ND's priority is trying to make the undergrad experience the best in the world. Trying to become a true research university would likely take focus off the undergrad experience.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Yep a few! I'm sure there's a couple kids a year who got into Harvard/Yale/Stanford/MIT/Princeton (the only schools, in my opinion that are a clear cut above us academically) for instead the Glynn/Hesburgh-Yusko path and the character formation only ND can provide.

I was one of them. And a few of my kids are likely to follow in my footsteps within the next 5-10 years.

Look guys, I'm so passionate about this because I had no idea what ND was beyond an elite school when I was 18, and it saved my soul. This institution and its putative mission - to become a world-leading Catholic university on par with the great Medieval Universities - means a LOT to me, and I think there are clear steps the Dome can take to better ND academically.

As the most elite Catholic university in the world, ND has a unique character. And it has to take care to ensure that character isn't compromised by the pursuit of goods like academic prestige or athletic excellence. ND has made a lot of compromises chasing academic clout over the last several decades, and some of them have cost the school dearly in terms of orthodoxy and remaining true to that character. So when I see someone arguing that we need to lean even harder in that direction, that tells me you are either ambivalent or actively hostile to ND's Catholic identity.

Basically every Jesuit university has done what you've advocated, completely lost their Catholic identities as a result, and are now 2nd tier (at best) schools. Our niche is as the most elite Catholic school. Ditch the religious distinction, and we're bound for the same path of irrelevance. There are surely things we could do to be better academically, but we need to focus on hiring the best orthodox Catholics available in each field first, instead of letting each department handle hiring based solely on publication references.

 

[CANONIZEFATHERSORIN]

Most of what it would take for ND to climb higher in the rankings would require ND to become a true research university. Doing so would certainly result in positives, but it would also come at a cost. ND's priority is trying to make the undergrad experience the best in the world. Trying to become a true research university would likely take focus off the undergrad experience.

Great point and my absolute #1 complaint about ND - that the admin doesn't want to spend the money (that they certainly could if they wanted to) to turn us into a truly world-class research institution. You're right on the other points as well, that I'm sure such an effort would come with unforeseen costs and that it might in some way deteriorate the undergrad experience by taking away focus. I know and endorse the fact that ND is an "undergraduate first" institution unlike, say, Michigan or Rice. I think that is a fantastic selling point and something I know I will always cherish. I guess I would counter that with two points: Dartmouth and Princeton are also "undergrad first" type institutions, but I believe they, particularly Princeton, also have fantastic research programs. Maybe we could look there for guidance on how to combine the two aims. Additionally, I think ND is historically been pretty ***** (can I swear here?) with regard to merit aid. I think getting more aggressive there, and following the lead of other leading institutions by basically making college free for families making under like $100k, would do a lot of good (Both from an institutional prestige and a Catholic values viewpoint).

 

[CANONIZEFATHERSORIN]

I was one of them. And a few of my kids are likely to follow in my footsteps within the next 5-10 years.

Were you in Glynn? Professor Weithman has my heart forever.

As the most elite Catholic university in the world, ND has a unique character. And it has to take care to ensure that character isn't compromised by the pursuit of goods like academic prestige or athletic excellence. ND has made a lot of compromises chasing academic clout over the last several decades, and some of them have cost the school dearly in terms of orthodoxy and remaining true to that character. So when I see someone arguing that we need to lean even harder in that direction, that tells me you are either ambivalent or actively hostile to ND's Catholic identity.

Basically every Jesuit university has done what you've advocated, completely lost their Catholic identities as a result, and are now 2nd tier (at best) schools. Our niche is as the most elite Catholic school. Ditch the religious distinction, and we're bound for the same path of irrelevance. There are surely things we could do to be better academically, but we need to focus on hiring the best orthodox Catholics available in each field first, instead of letting each department handle hiring based solely on publication references.

So I think I basically agree with you on most of the broad points but not on the specifics. So I agree that among the truly elite universities in America ND is sui generis and that's what makes it so special, it's why we love it so much. I know I'm new here and you have the discretion to ban me or whatever but I don't love the insinuation I'm "actively hostile to ND's Catholic identity." Notre Dame saved my soul and brought me to Christ, and without the vigorous intellectual tradition of the Catholic Church convincing me of the ideological viability of theism that would have never happened. I read GK Chesterton before I go to bed - I literally owe my eternal life to this university. I just roll my eyes at the handwringing over the loss of ND's Catholic character when in my (pretty recent) time there the LGBT club still wasn't allowed to advertise on campus, we all lived amongst multiple priests literally in our dorms, and premarital sex could still get kids legitimately suspended from the school - and everyone took a year of theo! I just don't see how the Catholic identity is in any danger, and the real danger to the school is the avarice of the Golden Dome which is, I believe, a little too invested in its ever-growing hedge fund. If you read the history of ND, it's always been a deeply ecumenical place. Northern Indiana in the 19th century had very few Catholics, and so a universalizing mission that embraced outreach to all Christians was an institutional necessity from day one.

And academic eliteness goes hand in hand with being a good Christian, as St. Augustine taught us. We shouldn't embarrass the faith with our paucity of knowledge. Re: the downfall of the Jesuit colleges, I think Georgetown is still a great school and our peer.

And I don't think the admin cares about hiring "the best orthodox Catholics available in each field." Adrian Vermuele doesn't work at ND, and nor does Robert George, the world's two foremost Catholic intellectuals. I think the Dome worries about its checkbook and how to grow the Smaug horde, and not much else. We should embrace heterodox scholars who still honor the Gospels, and even some who don't - a huge part of the reason I love ND is the absolutely unparalleled level of academic freedom there.

 

[ab2cmiller]

The Catholic identity of ND is not in any danger, as long as they continue to stick somewhere around the 80% figure for all new entrants. Heck they could go down to 70% and it's still not an issue.

 

[SouthSideChiDomer]

Great point and my absolute #1 complaint about ND - that the admin doesn't want to spend the money (that they certainly could if they wanted to) to turn us into a truly world-class research institution. You're right on the other points as well, that I'm sure such an effort would come with unforeseen costs and that it might in some way deteriorate the undergrad experience by taking away focus. I know and endorse the fact that ND is an "undergraduate first" institution unlike, say, Michigan or Rice. I think that is a fantastic selling point and something I know I will always cherish. I guess I would counter that with two points: Dartmouth and Princeton are also "undergrad first" type institutions, but I believe they, particularly Princeton, also have fantastic research programs. Maybe we could look there for guidance on how to combine the two aims. Additionally, I think ND is historically been pretty ***** (can I swear here?) with regard to merit aid. I think getting more aggressive there, and following the lead of other leading institutions by basically making college free for families making under like $100k, would do a lot of good (Both from an institutional prestige and a Catholic values viewpoint).

I think ND was trying to do this, though not necessarily in the aim of Princeton or Dartmouth. The previous Provost came to ND from being the Provost at Rice, which is much like ND with its undergraduate focus (down to the residential college/dorm model), but is relatively better at research in science and engineering. The new Provost was previously the Dean of the College of Arts & Letters, which might seem at first an odd choice to further expand research in science & engineering, but I think the idea is that Arts & Letters currently is our strongest college in terms of research grants, awards, and post graduate education, so hopefully he can take that model and apply it to the university more broadly.

As for financial aid, I don't know if we will be expanding merit aid, but we may be forced to expand need based aid due to a lawsuit facing the university.

 

[ab2cmiller]

I don't know if they really need to expand need based aid. Our family income was in excess of $100,000 and both of my kids received need based aid that was in excess of tuition. All that was left to cover was part of the Room and Board figure. Frankly that still amazes me.

Notre Dame doesn't really hand out merit aid, but my kids went to Notre Dame for about what they would've paid at a State school, maybe less. I'm forever grateful for the generous financial aid that we received from ND.