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ulukinatme

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:laugh: That was good. I've heard the story before about Bear Bryant and bringing in the first black players to Alabama. Credit Bear, as racist as Alabama was at the time, he actually scheduled that game completely expecting to lose. It was a tactical move to get the community to open their eyes and green light the change. Supposedly Bear knew what he was doing, it wasn't like an "Oh shit" moment. Well, not for him, just the fan base. At least, that's what I remember.
 

IRISHDODGER

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:laugh: That was good. I've heard the story before about Bear Bryant and bringing in the first black players to Alabama. Credit Bear, as racist as Alabama was at the time, he actually scheduled that game completely expecting to lose. It was a tactical move to get the community to open their eyes and green light the change. Supposedly Bear knew what he was doing, it wasn't like an "Oh shit" moment. Well, not for him, just the fan base. At least, that's what I remember.
I’ve heard the same story though it’s probably been romanticized. I think one of Bear’s assistants was quoted as saying “Sam Cunningham did more for civil rights in Alabama than MLK”.

Sam ”the Bam” Cunningham & SC ran all over Bama that day. Sam went on to a lengthy career in the NFL w/ the Patriots.

Gillis’ punchline was that it was great and all until you realize it was 1971…LOL
 

Bishop2b5

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:laugh: That was good. I've heard the story before about Bear Bryant and bringing in the first black players to Alabama. Credit Bear, as racist as Alabama was at the time, he actually scheduled that game completely expecting to lose. It was a tactical move to get the community to open their eyes and green light the change. Supposedly Bear knew what he was doing, it wasn't like an "Oh shit" moment. Well, not for him, just the fan base. At least, that's what I remember.
Bear had tried to integrate the football team at Texas A&M in the '50s, but the powers that be there wouldn't even consider it and said there would NEVER be a black student, football player or not, at A&M. I've always heard the same story about Bear scheduling USC and Bear expecting to lose, but getting the fans and admin to see the light, so to speak. I think there's some truth to it, but it's certainly more complicated than that. Here's a bit from a Bama football historian.

This game is often cited as the reason for Alabama integrating its football team. This premise has been the central conceit not only of innumerable news articles, but also several books and a Showtime documentary, but the story is a myth. In 1966, the US Office of Education warned the Alabama program that its lack of black athletes was a violation of Title VII of the 1964 Civil Rights Act. Thus, Alabama was compelled to integrate its football team by government action following the 1966 season. At spring practice in 1967, five black players attempted to walk-on, with Dock Rone making the team and becoming the first non-white player to take the field for the Crimson Tide at the 1967 A-Day game. Rone was on track to potentially contribute for the Tide before family issues forced him to quit the team and move closer to home. While Alabama had officially integrated by this point, the 1967 team therefore remained all-white, despite the university already having around 300 black students. After the 1967 season, Bryant gave his assistants the green light to begin actively recruiting black players.


Because Cunningham and several of USC’s offensive stars were black and 1970 was Alabama’s last all-white varsity squad, this game is often cited as the catalyst for integrating the Crimson Tide. This narrative is beset by numerous problems. First and foremost, as has been discussed, Alabama football had already begun integrating in 1967, and had been actively trying to sign black athletes since 1968. Moreover, there was already a black scholarship freshman on Alabama’s roster, Wilbur Jackson, before the Cunningham Game was even played. Jackson likely could have contributed to the 1970 team, had NCAA rules at the time not barred freshmen from playing varsity. The Cunningham Game was not Alabama’s first game against an opponent featuring black starters – that had come in 1959 against Penn State. Before the 1970 USC game was even scheduled, Alabama had already played 9 integrated teams – Syracuse in 1953, Penn State in 1959, Nebraska in 1965 and 1966, Tennessee in 1968 and 1969, Missouri in 1968, and Colorado in 1969.
 

ulukinatme

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I don't know if that helps Bear's image then. I thought the story was he was the one that prompted the turn around, but based on that info the NCAA forced Alabama's hand at the end of 1966 only to have them take 3 years before they actually sign someone for the 1970 squad. They could make a case for the walk on that joined the team and had to leave, but you'd have to wonder if they just allowed him on to appease the NCAA. In any case, I think a case can certainly be made that Saban has surpassed Bear's legacy in every way.

Interesting note about A&M though. I remember back when A&M hired Kevin Sumlin and Texas hired Charlie Strong there was a discussion on SurlyHorns about which school was less racist now. Yeah...
 

Bishop2b5

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The holdup was Governor Wallace and the administration at Bama. Bryant had been trying to integrate his teams for more than a decade. I think his scheduling of USC was more of a final destruction of any remaining resistance, especially amongst the fan base.
 

IRISHDODGER

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The holdup was Governor Wallace and the administration at Bama. Bryant had been trying to integrate his teams for more than a decade. I think his scheduling of USC was more of a final destruction of any remaining resistance, especially amongst the fan base.
I’m sure no one on this board is for “playing the race card” but if you’re a black coach in the Midwest/West Coast/North I could see a fair case being made to a player & his family about the SEC when they were segregated. All’s fair in recruiting, right?! Seriously though if you look at the way general society holds on to the days of segregation for political gain, why is it never done in recruiting?
 

Bishop2b5

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Governor George Wallace. He makes Fielding Yost look like a liberal!
Here's the funny thing about him, though. By most accounts, Wallace wasn't particularly racist. His history as a lawyer and judge show him to be very fair and non-racist, and even in the '60s there was a well-known story of Wallace (who'd been a good amateur boxer in his youth) defending a black kid who was being bullied by a white kid, bloodying the bully's nose. During his administration in the '60s, he did a lot of things that were helpful to Blacks. He seemed to shout racist and segregationist stuff in public, but act very differently behind the scenes and with many of his policies. One school of thought is that Wallace was not really a racist or a segregationist, but did what the money men and power brokers who put him in office demanded. Another is that was genuinely in favor of segregation, but he believed Blacks should be treated much better and more fairly, with equal opportunities, rights, etc..

In the '70s, he renounced his former ways and the black community appears to have accepted his apology. In '82 he was elected governor again, getting a large majority of the Black vote. Amazing stuff, given his public stances less than 20 years before. During this term, Bama elected its first black homecoming queen and it's traditional for the governor to crown her on the field during halftime. When Wallace placed the crown on her head, he pulled her down closer to him (he was in a wheelchair) and whispered something to her. She later said he'd complimented and congratulated her, and then told her that this was the best moment of his entire political career and thanked her for letting him be part of it. He was complicated.
 

Bishop2b5

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I’m sure no one on this board is for “playing the race card” but if you’re a black coach in the Midwest/West Coast/North I could see a fair case being made to a player & his family about the SEC when they were segregated. All’s fair in recruiting, right?! Seriously though if you look at the way general society holds on to the days of segregation for political gain, why is it never done in recruiting?
I think that was probably very common in the '70s, but appears to have lost its effectiveness pretty soon. Stuff that happened before a kid was 5 or 10 years old just seems like REALLY ancient history to him. Within a few years, kids were seeing black players go to Bama and other Southern schools and become stars, team captains, All Americans, and go to the NFL, and any racist history was something from "their grandparents' time" in their eyes. I can tell you that as a student there in the late '70s, the old segregation days, no black players, no black students, and etc. seemed completely foreign to us and felt like something that had happened decades before. It seemed as remote as WWII or The Great Depression.
 

Jiggafini19Deux

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Reminds of the UTEP/UK basketball game. UK didnt have a AA player until 1969
The Boston Red Sox were never cursed, as it turns out. Their racist asses (at the time) just didn't bother signing guys like Robinson, Aaron, Mays, etc. when they had the chance to.

Based on what I have read of him, I don't think Bear Bryant would schedule a game to lose in order to prove a point. He wasn't wired that way.
 

BlackandGoldandBlue

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Here's the funny thing about him, though. By most accounts, Wallace wasn't particularly racist. His history as a lawyer and judge show him to be very fair and non-racist, and even in the '60s there was a well-known story of Wallace (who'd been a good amateur boxer in his youth) defending a black kid who was being bullied by a white kid, bloodying the bully's nose. During his administration in the '60s, he did a lot of things that were helpful to Blacks. He seemed to shout racist and segregationist stuff in public, but act very differently behind the scenes and with many of his policies. One school of thought is that Wallace was not really a racist or a segregationist, but did what the money men and power brokers who put him in office demanded. Another is that was genuinely in favor of segregation, but he believed Blacks should be treated much better and more fairly, with equal opportunities, rights, etc..

In the '70s, he renounced his former ways and the black community appears to have accepted his apology. In '82 he was elected governor again, getting a large majority of the Black vote. Amazing stuff, given his public stances less than 20 years before. During this term, Bama elected its first black homecoming queen and it's traditional for the governor to crown her on the field during halftime. When Wallace placed the crown on her head, he pulled her down closer to him (he was in a wheelchair) and whispered something to her. She later said he'd complimented and congratulated her, and then told her that this was the best moment of his entire political career and thanked her for letting him be part of it. He was complicated.
My granddaughter asked me to respond to this, because I lived through it.

She sent along some of the factual stuff so here goes. first, facts, then, at the end, a conclusion, or observation.

Wallace was inaugurated in 1963.

His inauguration speech was unequivocal and included the following segment, which he shouted with spittle:
Here is a direct quote from that speech on January 10th, 1963:

"In the name of the greatest people that have ever trod this earth, I draw the line in the dust and toss the gauntlet before the feet of tyranny, and I say segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever."

Here is what the incisive, but dangerous


Were you black, you would understand the the phrase "greatest people that have ever trod this earth" was CODE for White Supremacy.

Here is what the incisive, effective but dangerous Lee Atwater said about "Code" and I don't know this board, and while I, ME feel entitled to say the word I am unclear of the board rules, so I will sanitize Atwater's quote

Atwater:
You start out in 1954 by saying, "N----r, n----r, n----r." By 1960 you can't say "n----r"—that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states' rights and all that stuff. You're getting so abstract now [that] you're talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is [that] blacks get hurt worse than whites. And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I'm not saying that. But I'm saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the racial problem one way or the other. You follow me—because obviously sitting around saying, "We want to cut this," is much more abstract than even the busing thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than "N----r, n----r."

Atwater understood Wallace, and had, effectively translated
\segregation now
segregation tomorrow
segregation forever

Here is what John Lewis, who got his skull smashed in in Selma in '65 said about his reaction to Wallace's speech:

That day, my heart sank. I knew his defense of 'states' rights' was really a defense of the status quo in Alabama."[17

Wallace was a virulent racist, using code.

Martin knew. And if MLK offends you, too bad he is a hero in our family, and my grandkids have sat while I have told the stories.

It was August of 1963
:I have a dream that one day in Alabama with its VICIOUS RACISTS (emphasis added) and its governor with lips dripping with words of interpositilon and nullification.

But Martin's dreams did not come true for in September of '63 four little girls were slaughtered by hate, segregation and Wallacism and the remnants of confederate thought, in Birmingham. Or were'n't you going to mention that.

all this. ALL THIS

happened on Wallace's watch.

I was going to offer a conclusion, but you, YOU are not worth it.

My family knows, my grand children know and you can bet the current Notre Dame football coach knows the truth.

This revisionist Confederate lying will just not do.

I will probably not post again.

I know that John Lewis is better than that. I know that Theodore Martin Hesburgh was better than that and the Marcus Freeman is better than that. And Moose Krause and Ara Raoul Parseghian and Dan Devine. All better than that

Go, you don't belong here. Liars don't
 

phillyirish

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What is Tennessee the actual schools punishment?
They already announced it:

“I was thinking about our little leak problem. I was up all night thinking about what we should do to this University. You know what I think we should do? We make 'em come to the games. And we work 'em. And we make 'em play all the teams they screwed over. And, and we pay 'em. But, we make 'em feel like they did something really wrong. The one question I have is do we give them a Bowl Game? I say, yes, it's Christmas, but right after, they're right back in the thick of it.”

- Mark Emmert
 

FDNYIrish1

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Oh no! 60k in payouts from 2018-21 when you just bought a QB for 8 million. This whole system is insane right now.
 

INLaw

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Any bets that it ends with basically a slap on the wrist?
Especially now that it is open season and didn’t make them even division contenders. I have a pretty serious case of not caring. Also maybe reggie bush should get his heisman back
 

Irish du Nord

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Especially now that it is open season and didn’t make them even division contenders. I have a pretty serious case of not caring. Also maybe reggie bush should get his heisman back
F that we should get the 2012-2013 wins back. Reggie Bush can kick rocks.
 

phillyirish

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Any bets that it ends with basically a slap on the wrist?
Probably less than that. A handshake, for doing the right thing in cooperation.
F that we should get the 2012-2013 wins back. Reggie Bush can kick rocks.
who cares what the NCAA says. Pretty sure Notre Dame still claims those wins, and the media was giving them to Kelly when reporting his school wins record.
 

chisea03

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Tennessee, which had its NOA go public on Friday, is being accused of 18 NCAA violations. The Volunteers allegedly paid out $60,000 in cash or gifts.

Tennessee’s total alleged payments are nearly double that of Ole Miss. And to make matters worse, former head coach Jeremy Pruitt and his wife are directly involved with those payments.​

Pruitt and his staff allegedly hosted at least six recruits and their families on nine unofficial visits during the year-long COVID-19 dead period. They allegedly provided them with transportation, lodging, meals, household goods and furniture that totaled $12,000. Coaches also reportedly gave out stacks of cash inside of McDonald’s bags.



I don’t think this will just a slap on the wrist...
A lot of SEC insiders are expecting bad things for Tennessee over this. I hope that Nico has an out clause.
 

ulukinatme

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Fuck you, NCAA! Where was this when we self reported the Frozen Five and got nuked for it? I really hope they get dissolved in the coming years with realignment. They're fucking useless.
Especially now that it is open season and didn’t make them even division contenders. I have a pretty serious case of not caring. Also maybe reggie bush should get his heisman back
You know Reggie is going to get his Heisman back at some point. They've been pushing hard since the whole NIL argument came about. Meanwhile our appeals fell on deaf ears.
 

Bishop2b5

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You know Reggie is going to get his Heisman back at some point. They've been pushing hard since the whole NIL argument came about.
Unfortunately, you're probably right. It's a flawed argument for doing so, though. Just because something becomes legal doesn't absolve those who broke the rules in the past. If they raise the speed limit from 55 to 65 on a road, they don't go back and find all the people who got tickets there years before for going 63 and give them their money back. Bush and USC broke the rules in place at the time.
 

INLaw

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Unfortunately, you're probably right. It's a flawed argument for doing so, though. Just because something becomes legal doesn't absolve those who broke the rules in the past. If they raise the speed limit from 55 to 65 on a road, they don't go back and find all the people who got tickets there years before for going 63 and give them their money back. Bush and USC broke the rules in place at the time.
I get your point and my attitude in general is fuck em all and hang em high but when it comes to your specific example as well as marijuana offenses. I am in the give em their money back category. I mean take slick willy laughing about umm I did not inhale and then the 1994 crime bill is part of more mass incarceration involving marijuana offenses that is just fucked from the word go. (I accept that this is kind of a lazy example but still).
 

FDNYIrish1

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Unfortunately, you're probably right. It's a flawed argument for doing so, though. Just because something becomes legal doesn't absolve those who broke the rules in the past. If they raise the speed limit from 55 to 65 on a road, they don't go back and find all the people who got tickets there years before for going 63 and give them their money back. Bush and USC broke the rules in place at the time.
You would think this to be true, not anymore. Take a look at who’s getting the first weed dispensary permits in NY for example. Mind boggling.
 

INLaw

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I get your point and my attitude in general is fuck em all and hang em high but when it comes to your specific example as well as marijuana offenses. I am in the give em their money back category. I mean take slick willy laughing about umm I did not inhale and then the 1994 crime bill is part of more mass incarceration involving marijuana offenses that is just fucked from the word go. (I accept that this is kind of a lazy example but still).
Also and replying to myself on speed limit stuff. There are far too many people being pulled over for doing 75 or 80 on the 70 mph freeways and I am not referring to the driver paying the ticket. It is the fact that somone doing 10 over on a three lane freeway is zero danger to me but them being pulled over and forcing panicked driver to instamurge out of that lane is insanely more dangerous. Almost every speeding pull over creates more danger to the innocent the drivers than the speeder left alone. The one significant and meaningful finding during Ferguson had nothing to do with race. It was that too many departments are funded partially or in large part by hassle tickets/citations. This leads to more or less law abiding citizens feeling resentment. Im rambling but as someone who drives over a 100k miles per year the staties on the highways are the greatest danger and not for my pocket book but because they consistently do traffic stops in dumb dangerous places on their quota days.
 

Bishop2b5

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You won’t receive an adequate response to this, because there isn’t one. There is no complication. Wallace was a spokesperson and advocate for evil, and a sh*t stain on American society. God can sort out the rest.
I have no interest in defending Wallace's actions and politics. They don't align with my own. I simply tried to explain him and add some context. I would ask this, though. Given that later in life he renounced his previous stances, apologized for them, and seemed sincere, do you feel he deserved forgiveness? The black population of Alabama certainly appeared to have felt that he did and a large majority of them voted for him in the '80s.
 
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