Russia Invades Ukraine

[IrishLax]

 

[ShamrockOnHelmet]

Have to wonder what the end game for Belarus is here. What do they gain from becoming part of this. Surely they have to be aware by now how this had isolated Russia and the entire world is condemning this. What is the motivation to run aboard the sinking ship. Am I missing something?

Belarus is and always has been a puppet regime propped up by Putin. It’s an oversimplification, but not incorrect. They were always a part of this, so their “entry” into the thing is neither a surprise nor unexpected by anyone. In all likelihood, nukes were already there, and their troops joining in was always the plan for a second wave, should it be needed. This idea that a “referendum vote” was held was theater.

 

[chicago51]

I never understood this. At some point, the soldier needs to choose sides. Either he believes what Putin is doing is correct and fights or does not and makes his stand. I understand all the talk about risk but there comes a time when a man has to choose his side for what he knows is right. Russian history was changed when the common man overthrew the existing government. The excuse of "I did what I was told" wont hold up on Judgment day. All those German excuses during and after WWII just dont hold up. You are talking about evil decisions made by a minority of the people in power and the vast majority just rolling along with it like a whipped puppy. My wife told me a story about captured 20 year old Russian soldiers who spent the last three months training in Belarus and how they just want to go home. Sorry but cmon. You didnt think what you were doing marching and attacking civilian centers wasnt wrong?

And for the record, there are a LOT more civilian casualties than what the good ole American media is reporting. I shouldnt be surprised because they had the death count stalled at 14,000 three years after the 2014 invasion.

There's a lot of propaganda.

Can't disagree more with this.

You are judged by your actions with intent. I'm not one to say "just following orders" is always a viable excuse, but there are decent soldiers who simply wish to serve their country who are only privy to a fraction of what's going on with this invasion, and the choices are fight for your country or desert them and risk life imprisonment and death, which also puts your family in danger.

Yeah the propaganda is real in any country but it's particularly strong in an authoritarian regime like Russia. They impose pretty strict controls over their messaging.

The Russians don't know everything we know. Quite frankly we also don't know stuff they know. Talking everyday average working people; not the government here.

There is a point where if you are one of the Nazis flipping the switch at the gas chamber, it doesn't fly anymore, and you're on the hook 100%.

But unfortunately we're all manipulated to a degree albeit to a lesser extent in free press democracies.

 

[Wild Bill]

Two distinct differences. The U.S. didn’t start the war with Japan and they were given the opportunity to surrender after the first bomb.

I'm not sure nuking civilians - twice - was a proportionate response. I'm sure others would disagree and that's the underlying point here.

 

[RipWheeler]

I’ve got an itchy trigger finger to write like a three paragraph response here but I know there is no chance I’d change your opinion.

Suffice to say Biden is not the guy who tried to withhold $400 million in congressionally approved military aid to Ukraine nor is he the guy who negotiated with the Taliban to leave the country on a ridiculous timeline nor is he the guy who goes out of his way to fellate a warmongering dictator who commissions assassinations of political rivals and journalists. That doesn’t mean there are things Biden can’t do better, but the amount of disingenuous propaganda spun by certain pundits and certain politicians to say “all of this is Biden’s fault” is comical.

It’s Biden’s fault. Trump was not faultless. However this whole shit sandwich started under Biden’s watch when he and Obama were drawing red lines in the sand.

 

[Bishop2b5]

I'm not sure nuking civilians - twice - was a proportionate response. I'm sure others would disagree and that's the underlying point here.

Not to go too far off the topic of Russia and Ukraine, but I never thought of nuking as any worse than fire bombing, carpet bombing, starving, or shelling a city. We killed about as many people, if not more, in a single night of fire bombing Dresden or Tokyo. The two atomic bombs were a means to end a war with less loss of life than an invasion would've cost. Estimates are that an invasion would've cost 3-5 million Japanese lives and roughly 250,000 American lives. The two atomic bomb attacks killed around 170,000-200,000 people and shocked the Japanese government into calling it a day finally.

 

[Wild Bill]

Not to go too far off the topic of Russia and Ukraine, but I never thought of nuking as any worse than fire bombing, carpet bombing, starving, or shelling a city. We killed about as many people, if not more, in a single night of fire bombing Dresden or Tokyo. The two atomic bombs were a means to end a war with less loss of life than an invasion would've cost. Estimates are that an invasion would've cost 3-5 million Japanese lives and roughly 250,000 American lives. The two atomic bomb attacks killed around 170,000-200,000 people and shocked the Japanese government into calling it a day finally.

History is truly written by the victors.

That's really my only point here.

 

[Irish#1]

Facebook and Twitter have removed Russia's propaganda accounts.

 

[Irish#1]

Interest rates jumped from 9.5% to 20% and Russia's central bank closed the stock market as well.

Ukraine looking to release prisoners with combat experience to join the fight.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

Rouble is currently trading at 170ish to 1 US dollar

 

[drayer54]

nd Twitter have removed Russia's propaganda accounts

Meanwhile, Ramzan Kadyrov still has an instagram/twitter to post gym selfies and pro-Putin crap. His #2 man did get wiped out Saturday though.

 

[Irish#1]

From NBC

His country's forces have slowed Russia’s advance and still hold the capital, Kyiv, as well as the cities of Kharkiv, near the Russian border, and Chernihiv, where there was heavy fighting, Britain’s Ministry of Defense said in an update posted to Twitter Monday morning.

“The bulk of Putin’s ground forces remain more than 30 km [18 miles] to the north of Kyiv,” the ministry said. “Logistical failures and staunch Ukrainian resistance continue to frustrate the Russian advance,” it added.

Overnight, air raid sirens sounded in Kyiv, Chernihiv and Kharkiv.

In the country’s southeast, officials confirmed that Russian forces had taken control of the city of Berdyansk as they made their way along the coast toward Maruipol, a key port city considered a prime Russian target.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

Breaking News. Very exciting if true...

 

[Ndaccountant]

Something tells me "buy the dip" isn't sound advice here.

Really though, what a tragedy on so many levels. The poor souls who lost their life fighting a fight that never needed to happen. I imagine when this is all said and done (sooner rather than later I hope), Ukraine will get all the aid imaginable from around the world. The sad part is that the average Joe in Russia, who had nothing to do with this, saw his/her life destroyed as well. These economic sanctions have a way of sowing the seeds of future discontent. It doesn't mean that they are unwarranted or not the right tool to deploy at the moment. But we have seen time and time again throughout history when forced poverty is exerted on innocent people, there is a power vacuum that usually follows. When that time comes, I hope the world is ready to step in and prevent the wrong person from taking hold.

 

[NDRock]

Breaking News. Very exciting if true...

That’s a joke, correct?

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

Almost looks like Terry from Reno 911 lmaooo

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

That’s a joke, correct?

is 100% true bro. Not only will Greg Abbot take down the grid but he will make Putin pay for it too.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

Something tells me "buy the dip" isn't sound advice here.

Really though, what a tragedy on so many levels. The poor souls who lost their life fighting a fight that never needed to happen. I imagine when this is all said and done (sooner rather than later I hope), Ukraine will get all the aid imaginable from around the world. The sad part is that the average Joe in Russia, who had nothing to do with this, saw his/her life destroyed as well. These economic sanctions have a way of sowing the seeds of future discontent. It doesn't mean that they are unwarranted or not the right tool to deploy at the moment. But we have seen time and time again throughout history when forced poverty is exerted on innocent people, there is a power vacuum that usually follows. When that time comes, I hope the world is ready to step in and prevent the wrong person from taking hold.

My hope is... and I know its pie in the sky, that the general Russia population is anti-Putin (even though he miraculously wins elections year after year totally legit btw) and that getting hit financially like this because of his actions will lead to some internal soul searching. This along with seeing what Ukranians are doing to stop him ... I would hope they do what they need to do to be come a real democracy. My hope stems from this:

 

[NDRock]

is 100% true bro. Not only will Greg Abbot take down the grid but he will make Putin pay for it too.

Ha. I was pretty sure you were joking but you never know.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

Seeing Switzerland joining EU on financial and airspace restrictions. There have been massive changes to the status quo in Europe recently. Massive

 

[Ndaccountant]

My hope is... and I know its pie in the sky, that the general Russia population is anti-Putin (even though he miraculously wins elections year after year totally legit btw) and that getting hit financially like this because of his actions will lead to some internal soul searching. This along with seeing what Ukranians are doing to stop him ... I would hope they do what they need to do to be come a real democracy.

I hope that as well. But even if that comes to fruition, it's likely at least a generation "lost". Terrible situation.

 

[Irish du Nord]

We nuked Japan, killing over a quarter million people, mostly civilians, and I've never heard anyone seriously question the morality of the bombing.

History is written by the victors.

Never?

 

[Irish du Nord]

Really? I thought it was pretty widely debated, but that consensus was mainly that a land invasion would’ve cost more lives == justified.

Quite possibly most prominent Catholic philosopher of the 20th century protested Truman going to Oxford for an honorary degree on the grounds that he was a war criminal for the bombings. It’s not like criticism of them has been a fringe thing

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

Quite possibly most prominent Catholic philosopher of the 20th century protested Truman going to Oxford for an honorary degree on the grounds that he was a war criminal for the bombings. It’s not like criticism of them has been a fringe thing

For Catholics, the Just War theory should be the basis of determining the morality of a war or even capital punishment. This theory provides that a state has a natural right to wage war and that the circumstances and actions leading up to and during war can all have moral determinations:
Before war:

• Just cause (ius ad bellum): The reasons for going to war must be morally correct, for example to repel invading enemy forces.
• Competent authority (ius ad bellum): Only legitimate, authentic, and authorized leaders can declare and involve the nation in war. Private citizens, corporations, special interest groups, associations, political parties, and so on, have no moral authority to declare war.
• *Comparative justice (ius ad bellum): The values at stake must be worth the loss of life, the wounding of others, the risk of innocent victims and damage to property.
• *Right intention (ius ad bellum): Acceptable reasons for going to war are a just cause, such as the stopping of an unjust aggressor, or having the goal of restoring peace rather than seeking revenge, retaliation, or total destruction of the enemy (without any possibility of surrender).
• *Last resort (ius ad bellum): All viable alternatives must be exhausted before resorting to war. Going to war shouldn’t be the first step but the last one.
• *Probability of success (ius ad bellum): A just war demands that the hope of winning the war is reasonable. Fighting just to make or prove a point or merely defending honor is foolish.
• Proportionality (ius ad bellum): The evils and suffering that result from the war must be proportionately less or smaller than the evils or suffering, which would have ensued had there been no conflict.

During war:

• Proportionality (ius in bello): A just war uses moral means during the execution of the war. Biological weapons are considered immoral, because they disproportionately harm more people and in more severity than is necessary for victory. Tactical nuclear weapons are only permissible if employed as a last resort, and there is significant accuracy and control to target only valid sites.
• Discrimination of noncombatants (ius in bello): Military and strategic targets are the only morally permissible sites for attack. Civilian population centers and any place where noncombatants reside shouldn’t be targeted

My understanding on this is that nuclear bombs are referenced in the catechism and the current stance of the church is this:

"Every act of war directed to the indiscriminate destruction of whole cities or vast areas with their inhabitants is a crime against God and man, which merits firm and unequivocal condemnation.”(109 Gaudium et Spes)

“A danger of modern warfare is that it provides the opportunity to those who possess modern scientific weapons especially atomic, biological, or chemical weapons – to commit such crimes.

The Catholic Church has always been consistent that there can be no moral case for the actual use of a weapon of mass destruction as it is indiscriminate. On this basis the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki in Catholic teaching are indefensible.
Pope Francis was elected in 2013 and he has addressed the issue of nuclear weapons. In 2019 in Hiroshima he said:

“The use of atomic energy for purposes of war is immoral, just as the possessing of nuclear weapons is immoral.”
In 2011 Archbishop Francis Chullikatt the then current Holy See’s observer at the United Nations reviewed the Church’s teaching at a meeting in the USA commenting and quoting from Church teaching,

“Today, more and more people are convinced that nuclear deterrence is not a viable means of providing security. If some nations can continue to claim the right to possess nuclear weapons, then other states will claim that right as well. There can be no privileged position whereby some states can rely on nuclear weapons while simultaneously denying that same right to other states. Such an unbalanced position is unsustainable.”

“The Holy See has never countenanced nuclear deterrence as a permanent measure, nor does it today when it is evident that nuclear deterrence drives the development of ever newer nuclear arms, thus preventing genuine nuclear disarmament.

“Maintaining nuclear deterrence into the 21st century will not aid but impede peace. Nuclear deterrence prevents genuine nuclear disarmament. It maintains an unacceptable hegemony over non-nuclear development for the poorest half of the world’s population. It is a fundamental obstacle to achieving a new age of global security.

During an inflight press conference aboard the plane bringing back Pope Francis from Japan in 2019 he is reported to have said,

“The use of nuclear weapons is immoral which is why it must be added to the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Not only their use but also possessing them: because an accident or the madness of some government leader, one person’s madness can destroy humanity.

Maybe the more knowledgeable Catholics on the site can confirm or knock down my limited understanding.

 

[Johannes]

The below thread walks through an article that was allegedly published "accidentally" by a Russian state news organization. If legit, it gives a depressing look into the Kremlin's mindset and objectives in this war. Pretty much confirms our worst fears (as if they weren't already confirmed).

These things do happen, that is articles not getting cancelled properly after getting scheduled. Still, consider the source.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

The below thread walks through an article that was allegedly published "accidentally" by a Russian state news organization. If legit, it gives a depressing look into the Kremlin's mindset and objectives in this war. Pretty much confirms our worst fears (as if they weren't already confirmed).

These things do happen, that is articles not getting cancelled properly after getting scheduled. Still, consider the source.

Helluva a thread

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

 

[Irish#1]

The below thread walks through an article that was allegedly published "accidentally" by a Russian state news organization. If legit, it gives a depressing look into the Kremlin's mindset and objectives in this war. Pretty much confirms our worst fears (as if they weren't already confirmed).

These things do happen, that is articles not getting cancelled properly after getting scheduled. Still, consider the source.

Thanks for posting. That's a crazy read.

 

[GATTACA!]

The below thread walks through an article that was allegedly published "accidentally" by a Russian state news organization. If legit, it gives a depressing look into the Kremlin's mindset and objectives in this war. Pretty much confirms our worst fears (as if they weren't already confirmed).

These things do happen, that is articles not getting cancelled properly after getting scheduled. Still, consider the source.

Some poor intern is getting executed