Police State USA

Rocket89

Uniform Connoisseur
Messages
2,914
Reaction score
551
Not true. In Indy last year, a guy with a record refused to pull over and led the police on a chase and while fleeing was posting it live on Facebook. He even tells everyone he’s not going back to prison. He crashes , gets out starts running and fires on the police before they return fire and kill him.

Huge uproar with protesters blocking the street in front of the area where he was shot. They threw water bottles at the Chief who came to talk to them. Several more protests occurred the next few days.

This story?

https://www.indystar.com/story/news/...ce/6225702002/

I read a few articles on this one. My instinct is to believe the police (edit: not so sure things were pretty sketchy on their part as I read more) but it doesn't seem like they proved the victim shot first, hence the protests and lawsuit?
 
Last edited:

drayer54

Well-known member
Messages
8,408
Reaction score
5,833
[TWEET]https://twitter.com/projectlincoln/status/1383950844362514434?s=21[/TWEET]

Not sure what’s a bigger joke, the pedo project or 60 Minutes. Glad 60 minutes ended their months long crusade to manipulate videos in a hit effort on DeSantis long enough for them to try and stir their DNC allies here.
what a joke.

Crazy folks make all kind of claims.
 

drayer54

Well-known member
Messages
8,408
Reaction score
5,833
Not true. In Indy last year, a guy with a record refused to pull over and led the police on a chase and while fleeing was posting it live on Facebook. He even tells everyone he’s not going back to prison. He crashes , gets out starts running and fires on the police before they return fire and kill him.

Huge uproar with protesters blocking the street in front of the area where he was shot. They threw water bottles at the Chief who came to talk to them. Several more protests occurred the next few days.


He also drove up and down Michigan Ave shooting his glock out the damn window. I live off Michigan Ave.
 

Cackalacky2.0

Specimen
Messages
9,023
Reaction score
8,018
https://abcnews.go.com/US/white-supr...ry?id=76309051
Not sure what’s a bigger joke, the pedo project or 60 Minutes. Glad 60 minutes ended their months long crusade to manipulate videos in a hit effort on DeSantis long enough for them to try and stir their DNC allies here.
what a joke.

Crazy folks make all kind of claims.
So he is automatically crazy. You know that? it’s well known that LEOs are supportive of these groups. It’s also well know the LEO is a prime landing spot for white nationalists looking to get their rocks off.

The FBI released an internal report obtained by ABC News stating white supremacists intentionally search for positions within police departments across the nation. The report, based on investigations conducted between 2016 and 2020, warns white supremacists will “very likely seek affiliation with military and law enforcement entities in furtherance of” their extreme and dangerous agendas.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...emacists-militias-infiltrate-us-police-report

Btw he isn’t crazy and. he isn’t joking.
 
Last edited:

drayer54

Well-known member
Messages
8,408
Reaction score
5,833
https://abcnews.go.com/US/white-supr...ry?id=76309051
So he is automatically crazy. You know that? it’s well known that LEOs are supportive of these groups. It’s also well know the LEO is a prime landing spot for white nationalists looking to get their rocks off.

The FBI released an internal report obtained by ABC News stating white supremacists intentionally search for positions within police departments across the nation. The report, based on investigations conducted between 2016 and 2020, warns white supremacists will “very likely seek affiliation with military and law enforcement entities in furtherance of” their extreme and dangerous agendas.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...emacists-militias-infiltrate-us-police-report

Btw he isn’t crazy and. he isn’t joking.

The Oath Keepers are an idea, not a group.
Ok, I'm kidding. Sort of.

After the GOP told the Oath Keepers to get more aggressive and they shot at the National Gaurd, I expected this coverage from a fair 60 minutes team.
Ok, I'm still kidding. Sort of.

But seriously- this is laughable. It's also wildly negligent of 60 minutes to give the few folks that do tie to this group by social media or whatever the best recruitment tool they ever had and throw gas into the fire for people already looking to hate cops.

Yes, he's crazy and these people are the angry social media/local bar gathering types that get pissed off at the world around them and label themselves under this concept that appears to tie into what they believe. These are the people that would show up to the Capitol for freedom events by the 2's and get directed to stand in the most far away corner because they are nuts. I got invited to their super scary "white-supremacist" pizza meetings as a lobbyist all the time but always had something going on that day. I will admit to looking at the FB pictures of the meetings because they were hilarious to see fat old dudes with an M1 strapped to their back eating Godfathers in a meeting. The craziest one I knew was a black man -white supremacist too, for the record.

This is literally a discredited news entertainment program with an agenda that found some guy who is white and fits the narrative to say some shit he heard at the gun show and put it on TV and stoke the fire of all the right words so libs would repeat it and make it a story.
 

Cackalacky2.0

Specimen
Messages
9,023
Reaction score
8,018
The Oath Keepers are an idea, not a group.
Ok, I'm kidding. Sort of.

After the GOP told the Oath Keepers to get more aggressive and they shot at the National Gaurd, I expected this coverage from a fair 60 minutes team.
Ok, I'm still kidding. Sort of.

But seriously- this is laughable. It's also wildly negligent of 60 minutes to give the few folks that do tie to this group by social media or whatever the best recruitment tool they ever had and throw gas into the fire for people already looking to hate cops.

Yes, he's crazy and these people are the angry social media/local bar gathering types that get pissed off at the world around them and label themselves under this concept that appears to tie into what they believe. These are the people that would show up to the Capitol for freedom events by the 2's and get directed to stand in the most far away corner because they are nuts. I got invited to their super scary "white-supremacist" pizza meetings as a lobbyist all the time but always had something going on that day. I will admit to looking at the FB pictures of the meetings because they were hilarious to see fat old dudes with an M1 strapped to their back eating Godfathers in a meeting. The craziest one I knew was a black man -white supremacist too, for the record.

This is literally a discredited news entertainment program with an agenda that found some guy who is white and fits the narrative to say some shit he heard at the gun show and put it on TV and stoke the fire of all the right words so libs would repeat it and make it a story.

They are very much real and active and the guy told you what they are doing which is in line with the FBI report I posted supplementing it. You can call 60 mins whatever you want but discredited isn’t one of them lol. Whatever you think of 60 mins what that guy told you is very much a real thing.
 

drayer54

Well-known member
Messages
8,408
Reaction score
5,833
They are very much real and active and the guy told you what they are doing which is in line with the FBI report I posted supplementing it. You can call 60 mins whatever you want but discredited isn’t one of them lol. Whatever you think of 60 mins what that guy told you is very much a real thing.

Just like Russian Bounties and the Publix Covid Vax scandal?
 

NorthDakota

Grandson of Loomis
Messages
15,705
Reaction score
6,009
Those guys seem like exactly the types of dudes that would try to project size, motivation, and resources to obtain some form of legitimacy.

It is like your friend who goes to another school tells you how crazy their frat parties are. Coincidentally, every time you go to visit and check it out, you are given excuses why this one didn't live up to the hype. "But our spring festival in April is gonna be so crazy dude."

I am sure the FBI will keep an eye on them. Who knows, maybe they've already infiltrated them since one of their goals is to get government employees.
 

NorthDakota

Grandson of Loomis
Messages
15,705
Reaction score
6,009
Just like Russian Bounties and the Publix Covid Vax scandal?

Did 60 minutes do an episode on Russian bounties? The whole Publix deal was just sad to see. They'd have been better off just running a message on the bottom of the screen saying "please do not vote for Ron DeSantis in 2022 or for POTUS in 2024."
 

tussin

Well-known member
Messages
4,153
Reaction score
1,982
You quite literally just spelled out the definition of victim blaming. Here's the deal:

If police are in a situation where they're being fired upon or someone is attacking them with a deadly weapon, and those police respond with deadly force, virtually no one complains about police misconduct and everyone rallies around law enforcement.

In your comment you highlighted 6 areas to blame victims:

1) Criminal behavior
2) Resisting arrest
3) Attempting to flee
4) Fighting with police
5) Obey lawful commands
6) Brandishing weapons

Numbers 1, 2, 3, and 5 almost never require excessive force, and certainly not deadly force. There's more gray area in number 4 and even more in number 6. Lumping in 1, 2, 3, and 5 as justification for a shooting is exactly part of the problem with police. For most of the country understanding this problem is elementary to American justice.

The problem with the Victim Blaming crowd is that when there are accusations of police misconduct there's a reflex to act like law enforcement are always in situations where excessive/deadly force is necessary--and when that runs counter to the facts as we're seeing clearly with Adam Toledo--the next step is to blame the victim even further to a more personal degree (he was a gang member, dealt drugs, used drugs, had a record, where were the parents, etc) and other tropes with racist origins to excuse police misconduct.

Just in the last 2 pages of this thread on Toledo's shooting we have such comments as:

"But his nickname was Lil' Homicide."
"Mother was not mothering."
"Gangbanger."
"Sympathy goes to the officer."
"Not all heroes wear capes."
"Play stupid games, win stupid prizes."
"Would've been killed by another gang member anyway."

Zero moderate voices in this thread are saying these things. It's exclusively right-wing posters. It makes you wonder why? If right-wingers wanted to stick to the defense that Chicago is dangerous and it was a difficult situation with Toledo dropping the gun at the last second, that's acceptable. But, they're taken it even further with the vilification of the victim. Again, why?

In many of these cases, the more personal the victim blaming gets the greater the relationship between police misconduct. In the year 2021, if you see a white person using the term "gangbanger" in regards to an incident it's a dead give away where their motivation is w/r/t police and shootings. Americans with empathy don't need to say these things if the facts of the case line up in favor of the police.

If anyone made those above comments and they worked for Notre Dame, they'd likely be fired (oh no cancel culture!).

And yet, the handful of posters who made them will complain about the media going overboard and that it's the media's fault that they're bringing race into it to stoke the fire when in reality you can't find a more politicizing event than excessive victim blaming after shootings. Thick irony. Police reform will continue to be impossible when such a large bloc of voters think victim blaming is okay (even encouraged, especially within police themselves) and that less victim blaming means those against it are the greatest victims of all.

The reality of the Adam Toledo shooting is that a decorated officer responded to shots fired, began chasing an armed suspect, and shot that suspect when the individual turned to face him (who again, was believed to be armed). The cop then immediately tried to resuscitate the suspect.

So yes, you can argue that the quotes above were in poor taste. However, perhaps people get impatient when the gaslit mainstream narrative is "white cop shoots unarmed 13 year old" while completely ignoring the surrounding facts. It is astounding to me that we are focused on the actions of the police in this case when we live in a world where it is not uncommon for a 13-year old to join a gang and run around with guns in Chicago in the middle of the night. I am not sure why these facts are considered "victim blaming" if they are simply serving as a counter point to stories like this from ABC News.

Given the context of the situation, what would you have done if you were that cop? Why anyone would want that job is a mystery to me.
 

Cackalacky2.0

Specimen
Messages
9,023
Reaction score
8,018
Speaking of I just found out that the person who killed my cousin last night was 14 yo and shot him in his apartment.
 

Rocket89

Uniform Connoisseur
Messages
2,914
Reaction score
551
The reality of the Adam Toledo shooting is that a decorated officer responded to shots fired, began chasing an armed suspect, and shot that suspect when the individual turned to face him (who again, was believed to be armed). The cop then immediately tried to resuscitate the suspect.

Right, and my first post on the shooting I mentioned that the cop was in a tough spot, only fired one shot, tried to revive the suspect while calling immediately for an ambulance. It's not egregious misconduct, if it meets that limit.

You also left out a key detail, that the CPD and DA lied in court that the suspect was armed at the time of the shooting. That's a big part of the story.

So yes, you can argue that the quotes above were in poor taste.

It goes way beyond poor taste.

However, perhaps people get impatient when the gaslit mainstream narrative is "white cop shoots unarmed 13 year old" while completely ignoring the surrounding facts.

Ah yes, it's always the media's fault. What exactly did the media do wrong this time? Remember the cops lied about the victim being armed at the time of the shooting. You're talking facts and left that part out.

It is astounding to me that we are focused on the actions of the police in this case

It shouldn't be astounding at all. A young kid surrendered, threw his gun away, and was shot. How can anyone be astounded that this upsets people?

when we live in a world where it is not uncommon for a 13-year old to join a gang and run around with guns in Chicago in the middle of the night.

Does this mean he deserved to be shot? We shouldn't care he was shot? We can ignore a little misconduct because he was in a gang? What's your point?

I am not sure why these facts are considered "victim blaming" if they are simply serving as a counter point to stories like this from ABC News.

In other words, some people aren't happy that the victim's family are making him out to be a martyr, maybe even a good kid, and to counter that other people need to drag the kid through the mud and blame the victim even more in order to uphold the depiction of a good vs. bad situation where we absolve the CPD of all wrong doing. That's not really "facts" in any concrete sense, but you are absolutely right that's what is happening.
 

tussin

Well-known member
Messages
4,153
Reaction score
1,982
Does this mean he deserved to be shot? We shouldn't care he was shot? We can ignore a little misconduct because he was in a gang? What's your point?

Who am I to say if he "deserved" to get shot. However, the reality is that when you are at the scene of a crime and run from cops while armed with a gun, you are risking your well-being. It is a tragedy that that this happened, but the more sombering aspect of this is that children are put in this position to begin with.

In other words, some people aren't happy that the victim's family are making him out to be a martyr, maybe even a good kid, and to counter that other people need to drag the kid through the mud and blame the victim even more in order to uphold the depiction of a good vs. bad situation where we absolve the CPD of all wrong doing. That's not really "facts" in any concrete sense, but you are absolutely right that's what is happening.

This isn't Toledo's family making a few Facebook posts about how he was a great kid. ABC National News ran a story that essentially portrayed this kid as a junior scholar with a picture of him literally playing with dolls. The mainstream national news outlets introduced his background as important context to that story. Given that's where we are in covering these stories, it is only natural for other media outlets to mention that in actuality Toledo may have been a gang member and had the nickname of "Lil Homicide".

In a better world, none of the background matters. All that matters are the facts on the ground. As you said, the officer was put into a "tough spot" and chose to react the way he did in that split second when a suspect that he believed to be armed turned to face him. You can critique that and believe that you would have acted differently.
 

snoopdog

New member
Messages
1,346
Reaction score
55
Not really. Disarming the police is probably the lowest polling on any subject you'll get in the United States of America. Literally no one agrees with it.

So, posting a tweet of an officer getting a Molotov cocktail thrown at him and then typing sarcastically that police should be disarmed is a complete BS and amateurish move.

The thing is, in a country where everyone can obtain a firearm (even fully automatic if you go black market) there will never be a scenario where the Police will be disarmed. So the question now becomes, how can you have society accept the eventual fallout from firearm hostilities involving police? Because all the wishing in the world won't make police shootings go away.
 

Blazers46

Adjectives: wise/brilliant/handsome.
Messages
8,108
Reaction score
5,459
Speaking of I just found out that the person who killed my cousin last night was 14 yo and shot him in his apartment.

Crazy!! I have been shot at twice in my life. The first time was when I was 12, the shooter was 17. The next time I was 20 and the shooter was 15. Both times, thankfully they missed.
 

Rocket89

Uniform Connoisseur
Messages
2,914
Reaction score
551
Who am I to say if he "deserved" to get shot. However, the reality is that when you are at the scene of a crime and run from cops while armed with a gun, you are risking your well-being. It is a tragedy that that this happened, but the more sombering aspect of this is that children are put in this position to begin with.



This isn't Toledo's family making a few Facebook posts about how he was a great kid. ABC National News ran a story that essentially portrayed this kid as a junior scholar with a picture of him literally playing with dolls. The mainstream national news outlets introduced his background as important context to that story. Given that's where we are in covering these stories, it is only natural for other media outlets to mention that in actuality Toledo may have been a gang member and had the nickname of "Lil Homicide".

So let's walk through how this spread within this thread. The police released the footage of Toledo's shooting on March 15th. Within hours, you had people like Andy Ngo calling him "Lil Homicide." At 8:37 PM on the 15th the first mention of the shooting was in this thread. Within an hour, Drayer mentions the "Lil Homicide" nickname. The next morning, Drayer posts screenshots from the video with Toledo apparently holding a gun without context that the gun was thrown away. Several pretty gross victim blaming posts would come in succession.

It's clear that a handful in this thread are primarily concerned about victim blaming and NOT dealing with the facts of the shooting. Literally not one person in this thread had anything positive to say about Toledo other than that he was young (that got victim blamed too, shocker) and that he threw the gun away (detractors tried lying about that too).

Do I agree with ABC News' decision to portray Toledo in that way? Not really he seems quite a bit younger in many photos, but I also don't know the full story of his life and he's dead now and we'll likely never know many details.

What I do know is that in this thread, the Toledo detractors are shying away from the facts and continue to hammer away with victim blaming. If, as you say, they're doing it to counter the media narrative to level the playing field, so to speak, that's a weird position to take when you're not going to deal with the facts of the case. For all we know, it could've been Toledo's first week on the street, never fired a gun, certainly doesn't have bodies, and the nickname is some weird joke. We don't know, but hell if some in this thread think it's the crucial aspect to the case while whistling right past the CPD lying about him throwing his gun away.

I have zero doubt that Drayer & Co. came screaming in here ready for culture war time and feel like it's their duty to counter the MSM narrative. But let's not pretend this is some valiant effort when there's a trail of BS left behind in the facts of the case from their wake.
 

drayer54

Well-known member
Messages
8,408
Reaction score
5,833
I have zero doubt that Drayer & Co. came screaming in here ready for culture war time and feel like it's their duty to counter the MSM narrative. But let's not pretend this is some valiant effort when there's a trail of BS left behind in the facts of the case from their wake.

I don't blame a 13-year-old. He should have been at home under the care of his parents in bed and tired from a day of playing games, learning, and spending time with his family. This kid was absorbed in a gang culture and life of crime. Sadly, he was going to be at a high risk of being shot for the next decade. The parents should be behind bars for this level of negligence. He surely was in a school that reinforced zero discipline or manners in the children. Yes, I saw the LIL Homicide stuff at his memorial and the social media pictures released.

While I think each shooting/event has to be looked at on an island, the whole picture matters. The kid was doing bad things with bad people at an hour of the day where not many good people are running around with guns. I think most people would find it reasonable for an officer to act the way this one did in this scenario. The MSM narrative is gasoline on a fire to spread fire and draw ratings. The truth doesn't matter and is even controversial these days because of a very vocal and powerful echo chamber that wants dramatic and disastrous changes in our law enforcement that would make us far less safe.
 

NorthDakota

Grandson of Loomis
Messages
15,705
Reaction score
6,009
The folks on the tube have been pretty favorable to the prosecution the past few weeks, and seem a bit critical of the defense attorney's delivery of his closing argument. He's going very long.

However, they are acknowledging that he's made good points that seem hard for the prosecution to overcome.
 

drayer54

Well-known member
Messages
8,408
Reaction score
5,833
The folks on the tube have been pretty favorable to the prosecution the past few weeks, and seem a bit critical of the defense attorney's delivery of his closing argument. He's going very long.

However, they are acknowledging that he's made good points that seem hard for the prosecution to overcome.

I think this guy Nelson has earned his check. Case aside, taking on the full effort of the state of Minnesota and the best team they could assemble is not easy.
 

NorthDakota

Grandson of Loomis
Messages
15,705
Reaction score
6,009
Lol the judge straight up said Maxine Waters has provided a valid basis for Chauvin to appeal a potential guilty verdict.

Lol this case gonna end up in textbooks.
 

drayer54

Well-known member
Messages
8,408
Reaction score
5,833
Lol the judge straight up said Maxine Waters has provided a valid basis for Chauvin to appeal a potential guilty verdict.

Lol this case gonna end up in textbooks.

I still don't understand how they justified not sequestering the jury for a case that it all over the internet, social media, tv, radio, etc. Maxine Waters is an abhorrent person and congresswoman, so it was good to hear the judge call that out.
 

IrishLax

Something Witty
Staff member
Messages
37,545
Reaction score
28,995
[TWEET]https://twitter.com/BrianaWhitney/status/1384381432416464903?s=20[/TWEET]

Civil forfeiture is another part of policing that is completely broken. There was a story locally here a few years back where some rich people were having a house game of poker and the cops broken in guns drawn and just took all their money. The pretext? The players all pitched in some money for dealers and food, so the cops tried to claim on a technicality that it was "illegal gambling" and not a totally permissible house game.

The problem with robbing rich people though is that they have the power to hire lawyers to fuck you up. What ultimately ended up happening was that the state agreed to a deal where all charges were dropped and 60% of the money stolen was returned to the players... that's right, at the end of the day the state still robbed them of 40% of the cash they had on them.

Civil forfeiture in the United States is a multi-billion dollar industry and much of it happens to people who are never charged with a crime and never did anything wrong. It is very expensive to fight the state to get your money back so if you got wrongfully robbed of $500 in a traffic stop you aren't going to pay $10k for a lawyer to get that $500 back. Totally broken system.
 

Cackalacky2.0

Specimen
Messages
9,023
Reaction score
8,018
Sorry... last update here as it just sucks but it seems more and more like it was an accident that occured in the house and the 14 yo did it but tried to make it look like my cousins fault so they are charging him with manslaughter and tampering with crime scene. :(
 

drayer54

Well-known member
Messages
8,408
Reaction score
5,833
[TWEET]https://twitter.com/BrianaWhitney/status/1384381432416464903?s=20[/TWEET]

Civil forfeiture is another part of policing that is completely broken. There was a story locally here a few years back where some rich people were having a house game of poker and the cops broken in guns drawn and just took all their money. The pretext? The players all pitched in some money for dealers and food, so the cops tried to claim on a technicality that it was "illegal gambling" and not a totally permissible house game.

The problem with robbing rich people though is that they have the power to hire lawyers to fuck you up. What ultimately ended up happening was that the state agreed to a deal where all charges were dropped and 60% of the money stolen was returned to the players... that's right, at the end of the day the state still robbed them of 40% of the cash they had on them.

Civil forfeiture in the United States is a multi-billion dollar industry and much of it happens to people who are never charged with a crime and never did anything wrong. It is very expensive to fight the state to get your money back so if you got wrongfully robbed of $500 in a traffic stop you aren't going to pay $10k for a lawyer to get that $500 back. Totally broken system.

You've done it. You found it. We agree!!! Ban this crap practice.
 

NorthDakota

Grandson of Loomis
Messages
15,705
Reaction score
6,009
Sorry... last update here as it just sucks but it seems more and more like it was an accident that occured in the house and the 14 yo did it but tried to make it look like my cousins fault so they are charging him with manslaughter and tampering with crime scene. :(

I'll withhold judgment on the kid then. Assuming it was an accident, can't imagine the panic going through the kid's head.

Prayers for the fam.
 
Top