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Whiskeyjack

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There are plenty of possibilities for who the valonqar is. Arya is described as a boy all the time. I think it's completely plausible that she is the valonqar unless there is more to the prophecy I am unaware of.

That's a plausible reading if you focus on nothing but the prophecy. But if you look at the various story threads, it's not very likely. Cersei automatically assumes that the valonqar is Tyrion (for obvious reasons), while GRRM's subtly informs us that Jamie is her younger twin. The prophecy is also very specific about how Cersei will die, emphasizing the fact that the valonqar's hands will wrap around Cersei's "pale white throat"; which sets up some beautiful imagery now that one of Jamie's hands is literally made of gold. And then there's the complex dynamic of Jamie killing his twin and former lover Cersei, who has gone mad and threatens to burn all of KL in Wild Fire, just like the Targaryen king that Jamie killed, thereby earning the infamy under which he labors to regain his honor. In short, there's a long list of reasons why Jamie as the valonqar is the best narrative choice.

The evidence in favor of Arya is: (1) a random line by Maester Aemon that valonqar might mean "little sister" (despite the fact that Maggy uses masculine pronouns); and (2) because Cersei's on her list. But it's pretty clear by the end of ADwD that Arya will not get to kill many people on her list, because most of them are already dead. She kills Raff the Sweetling at the Crossroads Inn, and in the show she killed Walder Frey. But almost everyone else on her list is already dead. In my opinion, Arya's narrative is better if the little girl hellbent on vengeance finally returns to Westeros only to find that virtually all of her targets have already died; complicates things morally (which GRRM loves to do), and forces her to reckon with who she is and what she wants to fight for.
 
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Whiskeyjack

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Every once in awhile, George will tip his hand.

- A Clash of Kings, Chapter 8, Tyrion II

Given that, I'd be shocked if Dany wins the Iron Throne based on the crude fact that she has three dragons and a khalasar. Those are certainly the trappings of power, but they don't answer the riddle.

I'm well aware of GRRM's philosophical leanings. But to argue that the Targs are evil, and that Aegon's unification of Westeros was a bad thing, one has to invoke principles like federalism, subsidiarity, etc. And I've seen no evidence that GRRM would agree with that criticism.
 

wizards8507

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I'm well aware of GRRM's philosophical leanings. But to argue that the Targs are evil, and that Aegon's unification of Westeros was a bad thing, one has to invoke principles like federalism, subsidiarity, etc. And I've seen no evidence that GRRM would agree with that criticism.
Absolutely not. I can make the argument that the Aegon's unification of Westeros was a bad thing because he was a foreign invader and he killed hella people. Subsidiarity and federalism would only be necessary if I were arguing against some kind of unification treaty and not, you know, a conquest.
 

Whiskeyjack

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Absolutely not. I can make the argument that the Aegon's unification of Westeros was a bad thing because he was a foreign invader and he killed hella people. Subsidiarity and federalism would only be necessary if I were arguing against some kind of unification treaty and not, you know, a conquest.

The various kingdoms of Westeros were constantly at war with one another prior to the Conquest. 5,000 died at the Field of Fire, but most of his battles involved minimal casualties, since the Westerosi quickly realized they couldn't hope to overcome Targaryen dragons. Battles over succession after Aegon's passing caused much destruction, but once Aegon's grandson Jaehaerys I took the Iron Throne, Westeros enjoyed more peace and prosperity than ever before (that's what empires are good at providing after all.)

So if you want to criticize the Targaryen dynasty, you have to do so from a (small 'r') republican perspective, which is not a view GRRM endorses (as far as I can tell).
 

wizards8507

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Since Bran was touched by the Knight's King and enabling the White Walkers to enter the tree lair of the 3-eyed Raven, wouldn't it follow that if Bran passes the wall that it invites the White Walkers and the Army of the Dead into Westeros? Bran passing the wall does not seem like a simple thing. If he comes to that conclusion, it may delay John finding out about his family lineage -- giving Littlefinger a chance to try to poison the well between John and Sansa.

Yup. Bran knows that being marked by the Night's King in one of his visions is what broke the protective wards around Bloodraven's cave. So how can he just pass through the Wall anyway?
I just came across a fan theory that touches on this. The theory is that Benjen isn't actually trying to be helpful to Bran and that he's actually a servant of the Night's King. The whole attack on the 3ER's cave was a rouse. Bran thinks he needs to get south of the wall to escape but really, the NK wants Bran to get south of the wall so that the enchantments come down.

So if you want to criticize the Targaryen dynasty, you have to do so from a (small 'r') republican perspective, which is not a view GRRM endorses (as far as I can tell).
I can think of a few examples. He's critical of Torrhen Stark, aka the King Who Knelt. Dany's entire journey through Essos shows what kind of calamities can occur to a people conquered by a foreign ruler, even for something as noble as the abolition of slavery. And GRRM's feminist preaching is most acutely seen in Dorne, the one region to resist the conquest.
 
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IrishLax

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I just came across a fan theory that touches on this. The theory is that Benjen isn't actually trying to be helpful to Bran and that he's actually a servant of the Night's King. The whole attack on the 3ER's cave was a rouse. Bran thinks he needs to get south of the wall to escape but really, the NK wants Bran to get south of the wall so that the enchantments come down.

damn yo...
 

Grahambo

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">SPOILER ---<br><br>Dorne on the right, The Reach on the left. It's like three months after Varys's meeting in Dorne. <a href="https://t.co/AJdYd7KFYw">pic.twitter.com/AJdYd7KFYw</a></p>— ☕netw3rk (@netw3rk) <a href="https://twitter.com/netw3rk/status/747253157240143872">June 27, 2016</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 

wizards8507

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">SPOILER ---<br><br>Dorne on the right, The Reach on the left. It's like three months after Varys's meeting in Dorne. <a href="https://t.co/AJdYd7KFYw">pic.twitter.com/AJdYd7KFYw</a></p>— ☕netw3rk (@netw3rk) <a href="https://twitter.com/netw3rk/status/747253157240143872">June 27, 2016</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
I miss Grantland...
 

woolybug25

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">SPOILER ---<br><br>Dorne on the right, The Reach on the left. It's like three months after Varys's meeting in Dorne. <a href="https://t.co/AJdYd7KFYw">pic.twitter.com/AJdYd7KFYw</a></p>— ☕netw3rk (@netw3rk) <a href="https://twitter.com/netw3rk/status/747253157240143872">June 27, 2016</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

I'm confused. What is the significance here?
 

Grahambo

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My thought on the Sansa/LF look at the end:

Sansa realizing that LF is displeased with the allegiance to Snow and probably is planning something. Jon talks about the great war that's coming all the time so I don't think she's dumb enough to try and usurp Jon's kingship in the North when she knows he's truly focused on the great war thats coming. I think she knows she runs Winterfell anyway.

That look is more of a 'surprise' type of a look. Kinda of like, uh oh and that was after LF gave her a dirty look first. I think she knows what she has to do and thats eliminate LF. How? I haven't a clue. Perhaps getting to Robin somehow. Convincing him that LF is the one who killed his mother.

IDK. Just random shots into the dark.
 

wizards8507

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Rut roh.

https://theringer.com/season-6-game-of-thrones-book-club-af5d0ba87fb4#.3pynhg9ty

What if Aerys II is Jon’s father? Problem pregnancies were a hallmark of the Mad King’s relationship with his wife, Queen Rhaella. Between 263 AC and 274 AC, after giving birth to Prince Rhaegar, the queen miscarried three times and gave birth to two stillborn babes and three feeble infants who soon perished. Admittedly, that’s smoke with very little fire. But if you subscribe to the theory that Aerys is Tyrion’s father, Joanna Lannister dying in her own bed of blood suddenly seems not just tragic, but portentous.
That would make Jon, Dany, and Tyrion siblings.
 

woolybug25

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irishroo

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The various kingdoms of Westeros were constantly at war with one another prior to the Conquest. 5,000 died at the Field of Fire, but most of his battles involved minimal casualties, since the Westerosi quickly realized they couldn't hope to overcome Targaryen dragons. Battles over succession after Aegon's passing caused much destruction, but once Aegon's grandson Jaehaerys I took the Iron Throne, Westeros enjoyed more peace and prosperity than ever before (that's what empires are good at providing after all.)

So if you want to criticize the Targaryen dynasty, you have to do so from a (small 'r') republican perspective, which is not a view GRRM endorses (as far as I can tell).

The bolded really speaks to my biggest questions going into next season, and that's how can Dany lose? She's aboard the ships of the best sailors in the show's universe, is allied with the current leaders of Dorne and Highgarden (although I don't know how much that means at this point), commands hundreds of thousands of the most skilled and brutal warriors on the planet, is currently being advised by arguably the two most successful political operatives on the show, and is able to ride and control the only three near-immortal killing machines that also happen to be the only genuinely effective weapon against the White Walkers. Meanwhile, the throne she seeks is currently controlled by a crazy person whose house is in complete disarray and who has essentially zero support outside her family (if she even has that). The other potential challenger for the Iron Throne just lost nearly his entire army, and even if the Knights of the Vale say loyal to Jon/Sansa, they're still outnumbered at least 20/1 and, of course, are not impervious to dragon fire. Am I missing something or does this feel like the '85 Bears vs. Penn HS?
 

IrishLion

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The bolded really speaks to my biggest questions going into next season, and that's how can Dany lose? She's aboard the ships of the best sailors in the show's universe, is allied with the current leaders of Dorne and Highgarden (although I don't know how much that means at this point), commands hundreds of thousands of the most skilled and brutal warriors on the planet, is currently being advised by arguably the two most successful political operatives on the show, and is able to ride and control the only three near-immortal killing machines that also happen to be the only genuinely effective weapon against the White Walkers. Meanwhile, the throne she seeks is currently controlled by a crazy person whose house is in complete disarray and who has essentially zero support outside her family (if she even has that). The other potential challenger for the Iron Throne just lost nearly his entire army, and even if the Knights of the Vale say loyal to Jon/Sansa, they're still outnumbered at least 20/1 and, of course, are not impervious to dragon fire. Am I missing something or does this feel like the '85 Bears vs. Penn HS?

Dany still has to get her army across the ocean and contend with Euron.

I'd imagine that there will be a "bad storm" of some sort that decimates some of their fleet. Then there will be a confrontation with Euron and his fleet, which is probably more significant than Theon/Asha's fleet.

Once she hits Westeros, her only allies are Dorne and Highgarden thus far. She will surely add more allies, but that still leaves a large group of houses, particularly those pledged to the Lannisters, to fight against her if they so choose.

She's in a good spot, but there are going to be plenty of opportunities for GRRM and the show-runners to throw some wrenches into her plans.
 

wizards8507

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If you follow the timeline of the book (the show's timeline is moved up two years because they were afraid of censorship, as Daenerys was only 15 when she starts banging), then the Mad King was killed almost two years before Jon was born.

Timeline - Game of Thrones Wiki - Wikia
That doesn't make any sense. Rhaegar and Aerys were killed back-to-back. If the timeline precludes Aerys from being Jon's father, it would preclude Rhaegar from being Jon's father too. The Battle on the Trident, the Sack of King's Landing, and the Battle by The Tower of Joy all happened in year 283 (books) / 281 (show).

The bolded really speaks to my biggest questions going into next season, and that's how can Dany lose?
Winter is coming.
 
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gkIrish

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The bolded really speaks to my biggest questions going into next season, and that's how can Dany lose? She's aboard the ships of the best sailors in the show's universe, is allied with the current leaders of Dorne and Highgarden (although I don't know how much that means at this point), commands hundreds of thousands of the most skilled and brutal warriors on the planet, is currently being advised by arguably the two most successful political operatives on the show, and is able to ride and control the only three near-immortal killing machines that also happen to be the only genuinely effective weapon against the White Walkers. Meanwhile, the throne she seeks is currently controlled by a crazy person whose house is in complete disarray and who has essentially zero support outside her family (if she even has that). The other potential challenger for the Iron Throne just lost nearly his entire army, and even if the Knights of the Vale say loyal to Jon/Sansa, they're still outnumbered at least 20/1 and, of course, are not impervious to dragon fire. Am I missing something or does this feel like the '85 Bears vs. Penn HS?

Is that accurate? I always assumed the Dothraki number about 20 Thousand. Purely a guess though.
 

Kaneyoufeelit

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If you follow the timeline of the book (the show's timeline is moved up two years because they were afraid of censorship, as Daenerys was only 15 when she starts banging), then the Mad King was killed almost two years before Jon was born.

Timeline - Game of Thrones Wiki - Wikia

That isn't correct. Ned leaves King's Landing after finding Jamie in the throne room over the slain Mad King and then makes his way to the Tower of Joy.

Mad King died and Jon born both in 283
 

irishroo

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Is that accurate? I always assumed the Dothraki number about 20 Thousand. Purely a guess though.

I thought someone mentioned the Dothraki number over a hundred thousand, plus the Unsullied and whichever Second Sons are not staying in Mereen with Daario. I could be wrong about that number, but for some reason I thought the Dothraki alone numbered into the six figures.
 

IrishLax

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The bolded really speaks to my biggest questions going into next season, and that's how can Dany lose? She's aboard the ships of the best sailors in the show's universe, is allied with the current leaders of Dorne and Highgarden (although I don't know how much that means at this point), commands hundreds of thousands of the most skilled and brutal warriors on the planet, is currently being advised by arguably the two most successful political operatives on the show, and is able to ride and control the only three near-immortal killing machines that also happen to be the only genuinely effective weapon against the White Walkers. Meanwhile, the throne she seeks is currently controlled by a crazy person whose house is in complete disarray and who has essentially zero support outside her family (if she even has that). The other potential challenger for the Iron Throne just lost nearly his entire army, and even if the Knights of the Vale say loyal to Jon/Sansa, they're still outnumbered at least 20/1 and, of course, are not impervious to dragon fire. Am I missing something or does this feel like the '85 Bears vs. Penn HS?

I don't want to reveal what could very possibly be considered a "book spoiler"... but there is hypothetically a mechanism in play where she might not be able to control her dragons, and therefor lose her military trump card.

EDIT: I say "book spoiler" because the mechanism hasn't been shown or alluded to in the show.
 
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wizards8507

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To pile on to some of the random thoughts... did anyone else get the vibe that the Blackfish might still be alive? Something Walder Frey said about the legendary warrior being cut down by foot soldiers made me go "hm..."
 

woolybug25

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That isn't correct. Ned leaves King's Landing after finding Jamie in the throne room over the slain Mad King and then makes his way to the Tower of Joy.

Mad King died and Jon born both in 283

Just read it again, the Mad King was killed in 281 in the books according to the wiki timeline I linked. I mistakenly read that Ned brought back Jon in 283, but that was also 281. They 2 year difference in the book and show had me confused. My bad.
 
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IrishLax

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To pile on to some of the random thoughts... did anyone else get the vibe that the Blackfish might still be alive? Something Walder Frey said about the legendary warrior being cut down by foot soldiers made me go "hm..."

I had the same thought initially, but then found it utterly implausible when I broke down how it might've happened.

One of the main things I was disappointed with this season was the decision to kill him off (off screen, no less) than have him escape like he does in the books.
 

wizards8507

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Just read it again, the Mad King was killed in 281 in the books according to the wiki timeline I linked. Read it for yourself. They even address the two year difference and attribute it to a decision by HBO because of Daenerys age being innapropriate.

Mad King died in 281 and Jon was born in early 283. Making the possibility of his father being the Mad King impossible.
The timeline you linked is a Game of Thrones timeline, meaning show. Jamie killed the Mad King at the END of Robert's Rebellion. Even in the show, Rhaegar and the Mad King were killed back to back. In the show, Jon was born in 281.

Show: Rheagar dead, Mad King dead, Jon Snow born, 281
Books: Rhaegar dead, Mad King dead, Jon Snow born, 283

There's no timeline in which those things happen in a different year than the other two.
 

woolybug25

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Irish YJ

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The bolded really speaks to my biggest questions going into next season, and that's how can Dany lose? She's aboard the ships of the best sailors in the show's universe, is allied with the current leaders of Dorne and Highgarden (although I don't know how much that means at this point), commands hundreds of thousands of the most skilled and brutal warriors on the planet, is currently being advised by arguably the two most successful political operatives on the show, and is able to ride and control the only three near-immortal killing machines that also happen to be the only genuinely effective weapon against the White Walkers. Meanwhile, the throne she seeks is currently controlled by a crazy person whose house is in complete disarray and who has essentially zero support outside her family (if she even has that). The other potential challenger for the Iron Throne just lost nearly his entire army, and even if the Knights of the Vale say loyal to Jon/Sansa, they're still outnumbered at least 20/1 and, of course, are not impervious to dragon fire. Am I missing something or does this feel like the '85 Bears vs. Penn HS?

Isn't Jon impervious to Dragon fire or don't we suspect he is. There is also the horn that can control dragons. No telling where that will end up. I'm waging that since Dany is already on her way that the Iron Islands throw in with the Throne.
 
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IrishLion

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I made the text in the above post white, as it references the potential book spoiler that LAX mentioned.

If you really don't care, you can highlight the text and read about some things that could pop up as difficulties for various characters.
 

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Not likely.



Jamie's gonna strangle her to death with his golden hand.

It would almost seem like GRRMs style to subvert our expectations by doing something that so on the nose by having Tyrion be the one to kill her. Jaime's gold hand makes the most sense, but Tyrion could also take her out the way he killed Shae with Tywins chain of golden hands.

I also agree on Dany being the younger more beautiful queen that is in Cersei's prophecy. Margaery doesn’t really fit at all.
 
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