Why I am a fan of Cleveland Sports?

[BobbyMac]

Is this what got you guys going yesterday about LBJ vs MJ?

I have to ask, what would LBJ have won if Bird, Magic and the Pistons were in their primes when he came into the league? LBJ came in and there was Duncan and Kobe and LBJ won the MVP in '09 & '10 while Kobe won 2 trophies and 2 Finals MVP. That's like the voters giving Barkley and Malone the MVP and Jordan ends up beating both in 6 the Finals.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Facts.... <a href="https://t.co/u9468riA1S">pic.twitter.com/u9468riA1S</a></p>— Jay Williams (@RealJayWilliams) <a href="https://twitter.com/RealJayWilliams/status/745079184742031360">June 21, 2016</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[NDgradstudent]

I guess I don't think a team deserves to win just because they haven't won in a long time. Let's take the Knicks as an example. They haven't won since the early 70s. Ownership and management have absolutely BUTCHERED the last 15 years. Do the Knicks deserve to win just because it has been over 40 years? Hell no. It's their own fault. Same with the Browns and Bengals. Terrible ownership and management over the years. I think players "deserve" to win but not teams. Richard Jefferson deserved to win because he has busted his ass for 15 years and has come up just short. Dan Marino deserved to win. Patrick Ewing deserved to win. I'm sorry but some dude from Cleveland who shit on Lebron when he left doesn't deserve to win.

The team -players, front office, etc.- doesn't "deserve" anything; obviously they have to earn it. The fans do deserve it, Knickerbocker fans included.

 

[KPENN]

Is this what got you guys going yesterday about LBJ vs MJ?

I have to ask, what would LBJ have won if Bird, Magic and the Pistons were in their primes when he came into the league? LBJ came in and there was Duncan and Kobe and LBJ won the MVP in '09 & '10 while Kobe won 2 trophies and 2 Finals MVP. That's like the voters giving Barkley and Malone the MVP and Jordan ends up beating both in 6 the Finals.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Facts.... <a href="https://t.co/u9468riA1S">pic.twitter.com/u9468riA1S</a></p>— Jay Williams (@RealJayWilliams) <a href="https://twitter.com/RealJayWilliams/status/745079184742031360">June 21, 2016</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Who knows? The teams he played with in Cleveland were absolutely horrendous. Give him a half way competent team and he wins a title at least in his first stint in Cleveland. Look at the teams he played with. Go look at those teams, the best player he played with in Cleveland was Carlos Boozer and that was for 1 season.

 

[BobbyMac]

Who knows? The teams he played with in Cleveland were absolutely horrendous. Give him a half way competent team and he wins a title at least in his first stint in Cleveland. Look at the teams he played with. Go look at those teams, the best player he played with in Cleveland was Carlos Boozer and that was for 1 season.

My point exactly. He played with nobody against nobody. (Compared to the 80's)

 

[Irish#1]

Derek Fisher diagrees, but you tell him how he feels about Kobe.

“Kobe, by far is my favorite teammate from a basketball perspective, in terms of what we were able to accomplish,” Fisher told LakersNation.com. “It would be a disservice to guys like Devean George, Luke Walton, Horace Grant, guys that I really got close to over the years in terms of being friends to automatically put Kobe at the top of that list. We definitely shared some special years and I miss him everyday, and I just want him to get healthy and get back on the court as soon as possible.”

You want to win, play with Kobe. Not everyone wants to win. They say they do, but some are happy to have fun and be rich. It'd like recruits saying education is important. Everyone says it, but few mean it. Fisher, Artest, Barnes, Odom, Pau, CP3 - all wanted to win.

Winners want to play with Kobe.

I won't argue about his talents, but why did the Lakers struggle to get the top talent to come play with him? Shaq didn't want to be there. Gasol was okay, but not top tier. Artest's best years were with the Pacers. He never came close to being that player again.

 

[ND NYC]

Congrats to all the long suffering Clevelanders!

Enjoy!

A great game to end a great series!

Happy Lebron could "bring one home".

ps thoroughly impressed by Kyrie Erving...didn't realize he was that great of a player. its King James show to be sure, but Erving came up huge in this series. i'm a fan, love his overall game.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

I won't argue about his talents, but why did the Lakers struggle to get the top talent to come play with him? Shaq didn't want to be there. Gasol was okay, but not top tier. Artest's best years were with the Pacers. He never came close to being that player again.

Karl Malone and Gary Payton both signed with the Lakers in hopes of stealing a ring that they couldn't win with the Jazz or Sonics, respectively. How the hell that team didn't win a ring is so far beyond me. They were loaded. Granted, that was before Shaq left. Steve Nash and Dwight Howard also played with Kobe and didn't accomplish much.

IMO, Kobe was great. Easily a Top 20 all-time player. But his style of play was very selfish offensively. When the Lakers were at their best, Kobe had Shaq and role players like Glenn Rice and Horace Grant. He later had Gasol, Artest, and Odom (not exactly the best of the best, but they played well together). Kobe needed to be The Man above all else and I think that cost him down the stretch in his career. You keep some of his earlier teams together and build on that and he'd had more titles.

 

[KPENN]

Congrats to all the long suffering Clevelanders!

Enjoy!

A great game to end a great series!

Happy Lebron could "bring one home".

ps thoroughly impressed by Kyrie Erving...didn't realize he was that great of a player. its King James show to be sure, but Erving came up huge in this series. i'm a fan, love his overall game.

I hear Kyrie Irving is pretty good too.

 

[koonja]

I won't argue about his talents, but why did the Lakers struggle to get the top talent to come play with him? Shaq didn't want to be there. Gasol was okay, but not top tier. Artest's best years were with the Pacers. He never came close to being that player again.

Kobe's not for everyone. A guy like D Howard, who is more concerned with getting paid and having fun, isn't for Kobe. IDK why he ever went there. 80% of the league is focused on fun and money, and there's not a damn thing wrong with that. But Kobe's focus is winning and money - that turns off most of the league and makes the soft players view him as 'a tough teammate'. But guys that want to win first and foremost - Ron Artest, Pau, Barnes, Fisher, Odom, etc., are the ones who will want to play with him.

In my opinion.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

Is this what got you guys going yesterday about LBJ vs MJ?

I have to ask, what would LBJ have won if Bird, Magic and the Pistons were in their primes when he came into the league? LBJ came in and there was Duncan and Kobe and LBJ won the MVP in '09 & '10 while Kobe won 2 trophies and 2 Finals MVP. That's like the voters giving Barkley and Malone the MVP and Jordan ends up beating both in 6 the Finals.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Facts.... <a href="https://t.co/u9468riA1S">pic.twitter.com/u9468riA1S</a></p>— Jay Williams (@RealJayWilliams) <a href="https://twitter.com/RealJayWilliams/status/745079184742031360">June 21, 2016</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

That's a cool meme, but I want to add something that so many people forget: There was the season and a half where Jordan was retired and then came out of retirement where had that not happened, the Bulls would've just continued to steam roll everyone. Younger generations cannot possibly understand how good those 90s Bulls teams were. Jordan would've easily had more rings by the same age (in less appearances) and almost certainly more MVPs...and he would've done that in two fewer seasons. I know, I know...the "what if" game...but it's a significant part of MJ's story. Dominance, retired, dominance, retired.

With that said, if LBJ continues on his trajectory and adds more rings, more accolades...I'm not sure how you can make a case against him being the GOAT.

 

[BobbyMac]

Karl Malone and Gary Payton both signed with the Lakers in hopes of stealing a ring that they couldn't win with the Jazz or Sonics, respectively. How the hell that team didn't win a ring is so far beyond me. They were loaded. Granted, that was before Shaq left. Steve Nash and Dwight Howard also played with Kobe and didn't accomplish much. .

Shaq was hurt and that was the beginning of Shaq's decline he was already Option B in LA and would never be Option A again. Not sure if he even averaged 20. Mailman was 40+ and missed half the season, only averaged 10-11 ppg. Glove was 35ish but did have a good year if I remember correctly. All the other roll players were getting into their 30's, Devean George was the only young guy I can remember and he was a flash in the pan overall.

...AND Shaq and Kobe had become a reality show.

 

[BobbyMac]

That's a cool meme, but I want to add something that so many people forget: There was the season and a half where Jordan was retired and then came out of retirement where had that not happened, the Bulls would've just continued to steam roll everyone. Younger generations cannot possibly understand how good those 90s Bulls teams were. Jordan would've easily had more rings by the same age (in less appearances) and almost certainly more MVPs...and he would've done that in two fewer seasons. I know, I know...the "what if" game...but it's a significant part of MJ's story. Dominance, retired, dominance, retired.

With that said, if LBJ continues on his trajectory and adds more rings, more accolades...I'm not sure how you can make a case against him being the GOAT.

That's not a given. Michael being away gave Reinsdorf and Krause the financial flexibility to completely rebuild the second run which was much better than the first edition.

The only two players on both the '93 and '96 championship squads were Jordan and Pippen.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

Shaq was hurt and that was the beginning of Shaq's decline he was already Option B in LA and would never be Option A again. Not sure if he even averaged 20. Mailman was 40+ and missed half the season, only averaged 10-11 ppg. Glove was 35ish but did have a good year if I remember correctly. All the other roll players were getting into their 30's, Devean George was the only young guy I can remember and he was a flash in the pan overall.

...AND Shaq and Kobe had become a reality show.

Now that you mention all of that, I do remember how dysfunctional that team was.

 

[Irish Insanity]

#Kobeisoverrated

 

[ulukinatme]

 

[Irish#1]

Kobe's not for everyone. A guy like D Howard, who is more concerned with getting paid and having fun, isn't for Kobe. IDK why he ever went there. 80% of the league is focused on fun and money, and there's not a damn thing wrong with that. But Kobe's focus is winning and money - that turns off most of the league and makes the soft players view him as 'a tough teammate'. But guys that want to win first and foremost - Ron Artest, Pau, Barnes, Fisher, Odom, etc., are the ones who will want to play with him.

In my opinion.

I can't speak to the others, but Artest was never focused on winning. Even in his best days as a Pacer, he was always in the news about something, like trying to get a music career going. I think it was mentioned already, but one reason he went to LA was for the exposure to the music industry. A Bulls fan can comment on this, but I thought he had a questionable mindset when he was with the Bulls?

You're right, Kobe wasn't for everyone, but I think it is pretty evident Kobe was the reason they struggled to get talent to come.

 

[GDomer09]

Can we for the love of God stop comparing players of different eras!!!

Talent, skills, and new approaches evolve in every sport as well as athleticism. Why do you think records in track and field and other sports continue to get broken? To say there were better players and teams in a different era is downright ridiculous. How the hell would you make that comparison? Considering the evolution I would be more inclined to say that the teams this year would dominate the late 80s early 90s teams. Also meaning if I were to choose between the 2 in there prime I would pick LeBron.

Examples:
How many people could cross you over or have the handles they do today in Jordan, Magic, and Bird era?
How fast has the speed of the players/game increased?
Every time something new is found to be effective on the court it has to be learned in order to be on top of your game.


It's like saying nothing has changed in the game since Jordan.

Let's leave at like this. Oscar, Wilt, Kareem, Jordan, Kobe and now LeBron ARE the greatest of THEIR era. They were/are in a league of their own at the time.

 

[kmoose]

Let's leave at like this. Oscar, Wilt, Kareem, Jordan, Kobe and now LeBron ARE the greatest of THEIR era. They were/are in a league of their own at the time.

I think you have to say that LeBron and Kobe were of the same era. Their careers overlapped for 13 years.... Hence the debate about the two of them.

 

[Irish#1]

Can we for the love of God stop comparing players of different eras!!!

Talent, skills, and new approaches evolve in every sport as well as athleticism. Why do you think records in track and field and other sports continue to get broken? To say there were better players and teams in a different era is downright ridiculous. How the hell would you make that comparison? Considering the evolution I would be more inclined to say that the teams this year would dominate the late 80s early 90s teams. Also meaning if I were to choose between the 2 in there prime I would pick LeBron.

Examples:
How many people could cross you over or have the handles they do today in Jordan, Magic, and Bird era?
How fast has the speed of the players/game increased?
Every time something new is found to be effective on the court it has to be learned in order to be on top of your game.


It's like saying nothing has changed in the game since Jordan.

Let's leave at like this. Oscar, Wilt, Kareem, Jordan, Kobe and now LeBron ARE the greatest of THEIR era. They were/are in a league of their own at the time.

It can be argued either way, but there is one category where Bird, Magic and Jordan were far superior to James and that's court awareness and savvy. They knew where all nine players were at all times and were two steps ahead of everyone.

 

[NorthDakota]

It can be argued either way, but there is one category where Bird, Magic and Jordan were far superior to James and that's court awareness and savvy. They knew where all nine players were at all times and were two steps ahead of everyone.

Isn't that supposed to be one of Bron's strong suits?

 

[ulukinatme]

It can be argued either way, but there is one category where Bird, Magic and Jordan were far superior to James and that's court awareness and savvy. They knew where all nine players were at all times and were two steps ahead of everyone.

This says otherwise:

Hard to lead in every category if you don't know where anyone is on the court. Not saying James is far superior, he's just certainly not inferior in comparison.

 

[Booslum31]

It can be argued either way, but there is one category where Bird, Magic and Jordan were far superior to James and that's court awareness and savvy. They knew where all nine players were at all times and were two steps ahead of everyone.

Knowing where the "other nine" were was Majic and Bird's strong suit. As I remember MJ knew where the basket was. I think Bron is a better passer than MJ was. MJ and Bron both certainly played defence. Anyway, they played a different position in different eras.

 

[BobbyMac]

Can we for the love of God stop comparing players of different eras!!!
Talent, skills, and new approaches evolve in every sport as well as athleticism.

Who in the league has as much talent as MJ? Who has as much skill as Bird? What athlete is more evolved than MJ?

Why do you think records in track and field and other sports continue to get broken? To say there were better players and teams in a different era is downright ridiculous.

You are conflating measurable, single skill, noncognitive athleticism in solo events with multi skill, decision making, anticipation, reaction and coordination in a team sport. You can't hide in basketball. Click on the link below and watch the world's all time fastest human dunk a basketball. Completely uncoordinated because he's a one trick pony when it comes to physical skill. I would have gone around him everytime and poked on him because he has ZERO footwork... or I would have gone through him because he's weak... or I'd have gone over him because he can't jump.

Get ready to giggle...

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/6OUVyjgnpwM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

How the hell would you make that comparison? Considering the evolution I would be more inclined to say that the teams this year would dominate the late 80s early 90s teams.

You say this because you are young and you are not a basketball player.

Examples:
How many people could cross you over or have the handles they do today in Jordan, Magic, and Bird era?

If you think And 1 - Ohhhhh Baaaabbbby players didn't exist back in the day you're crazy. Tim Hardaway STILL has the best crossover of all time. Archibald, Maravich, Frazier and Monroe would walk right out of the 70's into next year's All Star game and that's before they took a summer to master the carry and euro step. How many guys have better handles than Nash, AI, Jason Williams, KJ? Seriously do you think George Mikan played in the 80's?

How fast has the speed of the players/game increased?

Who in this league plays faster than the 80's Lakers? Who? Magic, Worthy, Cooper and Scott on the break. PLEASE. Just because Michael Westbrook is the fastest player to ever play the game doesn't mean the Thunder are playing faster than the Showtime or Run TMC in the early 90's. Next.

Let's leave at like this. Oscar, Wilt, Kareem, Jordan, Kobe and now LeBron ARE the greatest of THEIR era. They were/are in a league of their own at the time.

Thanks for reminding me. When one of YOUR generation's 7 footers wins the high jump at a major college meet or a HS 100 or 220 dash in a major city like Philly. Let me know. There hasn't been a Wilt since Wilt. The greatest overall athlete in any team sport ever. And the greatest free throw shooter too... that is until they stopped him from jumping from the free throw line and dunking it every time.

 

[Irish Insanity]

This says otherwise:

Hard to lead in every category if you don't know where anyone is on the court. Not saying James is far superior, he's just certainly not inferior in comparison.

Some will say it's easy to lead all those when it takes you 7 games to win.

 

[GoldenDome]

Some will say it's easy to lead all those when it takes you 7 games to win.

People say a lot of things.

 

[GreyWorm]

Some will say it's easy to lead all those when it takes you 7 games to win.

Some would say it would be easier for a Warriors player to lead one main category in 7 games too.

 

[GDomer09]

Who in the league as much talent as MJ? Who has as much skill as Bird? What athlete is more evolved than MJ?



You are conflating measurable, single skill, noncognitive athleticism in solo events with multi skill, decision making, anticipation, reaction and coordination in a team sport. You can't hide in basketball. Click on the link below and watch the world's all time fastest human dunk a basketball. Completely uncoordinated because he's a one trick pony when it comes to physical skill. I would have gone around him everytime and poked on him because he has ZERO footwork... or I would have gone through him because he's weak... or I'd have gone over him because he can't jump.

Get ready to giggle...

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/6OUVyjgnpwM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>



You say this because you are young and you are not a basketball player.

Examples:
How many people could cross you over or have the handles they do today in Jordan, Magic, and Bird era?

If you think And 1 - Ohhhhh Baaaabbbby players didn't exist back in the day you're crazy. Tim Hardaway STILL has the best crossover of all time. Archibald, Maravich, Frazier and Monroe would walk right out of the 70's into next year's All Star game and that's before they took a summer to master the carry and euro step. How many guys have better handles than Nash, AI, Jason Williams, KJ? Seriously do you think George Mikan played in the 80's?



Who in this league plays faster than the 80's Lakers? Who? Magic, Worthy, Cooper and Scott on the break. PLEASE. Just because Michael Westbrook is the fastest player to ever play the game doesn't mean the Thunder are playing faster than the Showtime or Run TMC in the early 90's. Next.
Every time something new is found to be effective on the court it has to be learned in order to be on top of your game.




Thanks for reminding me. When one of YOUR generation's 7 footers wins the high jump at a major college meet or a HS 100 or 220 dash in a major city like Philly. Let me know. There hasn't been a Wilt since Wilt. The greatest overall athlete in any team sport ever. And the greatest free throw shooter too... that is until they stopped him from jumping from the free throw line and dunking it every time.

First off, Wow and I've played basketball for years and still play today. "Too young" means absolutley nothing to my argument. Just because you've watched Bird, Magic, Jordan and so on play against players at that times skill set doesn't mean it translates to todays talent.

I'm not going to argue with you much considering you've already made several assumptions and that is the basis of my main argument. All the bolded and several other things you've stated are all assumptions. No point in arguing over something you can't possibly equate. The only argument that can be made is if the game/players have evolved to be more difficult or less.

Yes, players being faster, quicker, knowing more tricks and that HAVE better handles matter. How would it not?

Lastly Wilt was a God of his era, but how in the hell you gonna compare his competition then to today's bigs?

 

[irishroo]

Who in the league has as much talent as MJ? Who has as much skill as Bird? What athlete is more evolved than MJ?

Do you mean in addition to LeBron or are you saying that MJ was a superior athlete to LeBron? If you mean the latter you're outside your mind.

 

[greyhammer90]

Some will say it's easy to lead all those when it takes you 7 games to win.

A+ troll post

Pretty sure LeBron was leading all those after 5 fwiw.

 

[Irish Insanity]

A+ troll post

Pretty sure LeBron was leading all those after 5 fwiw.

I'm a fan of LBJ. I don't see it the way I posted. However, I've read some article with similar comments and have seen a lot on social media.