'14 OH QB DeShone Kizer (Notre Dame Signee)

[IrishLax]

Nobody knows what Kizer will become but he currently lacks the quick release and accuracy to be a starting NFL QB. He could definitely get there though, and he has prototypical tools plus an adequate arm. It's worth noting how much massive improvement he made from spring ball 2014 to midseason 2015. If he continues on that trajectory, he will for sure be a top draft pick... but he isn't there yet. The game of "projecting" is always very difficult. See: Logan Thomas at Virginia Tech. Everyone thought he would continue improving and instead he plateaued.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Because from what I've seen from them both Watson is the better overall quarterback, particularly with his accuracy. I'd take Watson's leadership and all the off field strengths too.

I mean, you just tossed it out there that Kizer has a better arm. I disagree which leaves you with what I said, it's mostly based on Kizer's size and all potential rolling down hill from there.

I will bet Kizer is as fast or faster than Watson.

He is more solid.

And I would never say that I would take Watson's leadership skills against Kizer's. People don't seem to get it; Kizer was learning on the fly last year. Where Watson (even though he had had injuries set him back) still got all of the number one reps, and was in the middle of the offense at Clemson.

Kizer never had a number one rep until after he played in and won the Va., game! And at that point it was learn on the run, so to speak. They built an offense around him during the season based upon what they thought would win games. So it was constantly evolving.

Don't mistake his sometimes tentative play for any kind of lack of leadership.

Also, he has tremendous respect for Malik Zaire. So he (even stated it) was not trying to complicate the issue, and kept his true nature in check.

Regardless of who wins the position we will have a great leader at the helm.

But if DK wins it, you will see a far different, and seemingly more mature animal than you ever saw last year.

By the way, I saw him a month ago at SJJHS at a baseball game versus Central. As a friend, father of one of the SJ players, who is as big of an asshole about football as any Michigan fan who saw him there said, "Wow." We agreed that the last time ND had a quarterback that looked anything like that was with Brady Quinn. This kid is getting the extreme build of a Quinn, only his legs are starting to look bigger. I wonder how that will affect his running and throwing game?

 

[Rocket89]

Not really, I added that I see Kizer with more long term potentia because he has far less experience and has more to learn. It's not just that he is prototypical NFL size and Watson is notl.

Potential, again. And it's not like Watson is enormously more experienced. He was banged up most of 2014 and has 6 more career starts and 294 more career pass attempts. It's not a huge gap.

He is as good as he is with only 13 total career starts.

I think you meant to say Kizer isn't as good as he is?

Like I also said, if you extrapolate their per play production, they are both pretty close.

KIZER
221 Passing Yards/Game
40 Rushing Yards/Game
62.9% Accuracy
2.38 TD/Game

WATSON
273 Passing Yards/Game
73 Rushing Yards/Game
67.8% Accuracy
3.1 TD/Game

I don't think it's accurate to say their numbers are pretty close. Breaking it up by play can make it closer but at the detriment of Watson's ability to run an offense so quickly.

Kizer has more come from behind wins, so I also disagree with you on the leadership.

I'm not sure I'd equate come from behind wins with leadership. That's a unique angle. That really wasn't what I was talking about.

Finally, I think that the sheer fact that we're debating it shows that your original comment of the thought being a "crazy argument" seem kinda silly. Not everything you disagree with is a "crazy argument". It can be reasonable to have a different opinion.

A handful of excitable Notre Dame fans think Kizer is a better pro prospect than the (likely) No. 1 overall pick in next spring's draft. I like Kizer a whole heck of a lot but that's still crazy as things stand right now. Kizer could get there (potential!) but he's not in that conversation right now.

 

[Rocket89]

Nobody knows what Kizer will become but he currently lacks the quick release and accuracy to be a starting NFL QB. He could definitely get there though, and he has prototypical tools plus an adequate arm. It's worth noting how much massive improvement he made from spring ball 2014 to midseason 2015. If he continues on that trajectory, he will for sure be a top draft pick... but he isn't there yet. The game of "projecting" is always very difficult. See: Logan Thomas at Virginia Tech. Everyone thought he would continue improving and instead he plateaued.

All of this! Kizer's ceiling could potentially be enormously high. Right now, his "arm talent" isn't quite on the level of a No. 1 overall draft pick prospect.

 

[koonja]

To earlt to know who will be the better pro but if Watson was at ND right now there'd be no QB competition at all.

 

[woolybug25]

Potential, again. And it's not like Watson is enormously more experienced. He was banged up most of 2014 and has 6 more career starts and 294 more career pass attempts. It's not a huge gap.



I think you meant to say Kizer isn't as good as he is?



KIZER
221 Passing Yards/Game
40 Rushing Yards/Game
62.9% Accuracy
2.38 TD/Game

WATSON
273 Passing Yards/Game
73 Rushing Yards/Game
67.8% Accuracy
3.1 TD/Game

I don't think it's accurate to say their numbers are pretty close. Breaking it up by play can make it closer but at the detriment of Watson's ability to run an offense so quickly.



I'm not sure I'd equate come from behind wins with leadership. That's a unique angle. That really wasn't what I was talking about.



A handful of excitable Notre Dame fans think Kizer is a better pro prospect than the (likely) No. 1 overall pick in next spring's draft. I like Kizer a whole heck of a lot but that's still crazy as things stand right now. Kizer could get there (potential!) but he's not in that conversation right now.

First of all, what stat would you use other than come from behind wins as a metric for leadership? That's really the first you heard of it?

Like I said, I'm not trying to convince you that Kizer is a better NFL prospect, as evidenced by the tweet that started this debate, there are plenty of people that feel that way. All I'm saying is that your comment alluding to anyone that thinks it being a homer or idiotic is silly. We're projecting a draft over a year away and you're acting like anyone that disagrees with you that the world is flat is clearly a mouth breathing moron. It's simply not true and debating it is fine, regardless of which opinion you have.

 

[koonja]

Wasnt Jonny manziel the come back kid for 2 years? Huge leader.

 

[Rocket89]

First of all, what stat would you use other than come from behind wins as a metric for leadership? That's really the first you heard of it?

I wouldn't bring up any stats. In terms of off-field intangibles I like Kizer so far but I really like Watson. He's super impressive.

Like I said, I'm not trying to convince you that Kizer is a better NFL prospect, as evidenced by the tweet that started this debate, there are plenty of people that feel that way.

Eh, Keith isn't shy about drinking from a Notre Dame Kool-Aid fire hose. That's hardly indicative of anything in regards to "plenty of people."

Side question, if Kizer doesn't come out until 2018 do you think he's picked over Rosen?

All I'm saying is that your comment alluding to anyone that thinks it being a homer or idiotic is silly. We're projecting a draft over a year away and you're acting like anyone that disagrees with you that the world is flat is clearly a mouth breathing moron. It's simply not true and debating it is fine, regardless of which opinion you have.

I honestly don't care. You seem to do this every once in a while, take some innocuous comment and blow it out of proportion like you're being persecuted and I'm trying to silence you. Why are you taking it to this level?

 

[phillyirish]

I remember Michael Wilbon saying Kizer was the best player in college football last year and a future #1 overall pick. So that's one ND hater who supports him.

 

[NCND]

Yes

Hahahahahahahaha. I mean wtf?

 

[woolybug25]

I honestly don't care. You seem to do this every once in a while, take some innocuous comment and blow it out of proportion like you're being persecuted and I'm trying to silence you. Why are you taking it to this level?

How is this on me? My entire point from the gate was that is was a fair point to debate, you doubled down on it being a non starter. I didn't say one single time that your opinion was incorrect or not viable. You told everyone else (i.e. Not just me) that the entire debate was "crazy talk". I singled out the statement because it was innacurate and you doubled down on it. Don't blame me for singling you out when you're still sitting here waiting for everyone to agree with you lock toe.

Kizer is a better NFL prospect? Cool

Watson is a better NFL prospect? Cool

I have been completely open to both opinions, so don't blame me for your inability to debate in good faith.

 

[Rocket89]

I didn't say one single time that your opinion was incorrect or not viable.

And if you did, that's fine! You're mad on the internet because I said your opinion wasn't correct?

Kizer > Watson is a bit of an outlandish claim, in the parlance of our times a "crazy" argument. I'm not saying don't speak your mind on the topic. And I sure haven't said anything about anyone being idiotic or a mouth breathing moron, per your second to last comment.

Chill out, man.

 

[woolybug25]

And if you did, that's fine! You're mad on the internet because I said your opinion wasn't correct?

Kizer > Watson is a bit of an outlandish claim, in the parlance of our times a "crazy" argument. I'm not saying don't speak your mind on the topic. And I sure haven't said anything about anyone being idiotic or a mouth breathing moron, per your second to last comment.

Chill out, man.

I'm chill, man. Again... I'm not on here claiming ANYONE's claim is outlandish. As you stated above, you are the ONLY person telling everyone that if they think Kizer is a better NFL prospect is "outlandish" and "crazy". Take your own advice, weirdo.

 

[fightingirish26]

First of all, what stat would you use other than come from behind wins as a metric for leadership? That's really the first you heard of it?

Like I said, I'm not trying to convince you that Kizer is a better NFL prospect, as evidenced by the tweet that started this debate, there are plenty of people that feel that way. All I'm saying is that your comment alluding to anyone that thinks it being a homer or idiotic is silly. We're projecting a draft over a year away and you're acting like anyone that disagrees with you that the world is flat is clearly a mouth breathing moron. It's simply not true and debating it is fine, regardless of which opinion you have.

Considering leadership is an intangible, you would not use any stats.

 

[Henges24]

Kizer is a better prospect than Watson??.. Okay.

Yes

Now I understand your Kool Aid avatar.

By the end of the season I won't be surprised if Kizer is easily better compared to Watson but as of right now it's hard for me to agree that he is the better prospect.

It's crazy how we were so excited to see Zaire then he gets hurt. Then went to thinking our season was in the shitter and DK helps ND contend for a CFP spot. Now we are all exicited for DK. Sucks for Zaire but I believe he will get his chance this year. Just not right out of the gate.

 

[Rocket89]

I'm not on here claiming ANYONE's claim is outlandish.

I don't care! It's about comparing Kizer and Watson not arguing about whether I'm allowed to say something is outlandish, or someone else is allowed to say something is outlandish, or your crusade about being offended something you said was called outlandish by me.

At least go back to the game winning drives equals leadership bit, or something.

 

[woolybug25]

I don't care! It's about comparing Kizer and Watson not arguing about whether I'm allowed to say something is outlandish, or someone else is allowed to say something is outlandish, or your crusade about being offended something you said was called outlandish by me.

At least go back to the game winning drives equals leadership bit, or something.

Why exactly would I do that with someone that has stated that anyone that argues against your view is being "crazy" or "outlandish". You obviously do care, as you are the only person... I repeat... The only person... That is saying that anyone that thinks Kizer isn't a worse prospect than Watson is an idiot. That's exactly what you have brought to the table and haven't denied one. Single. Time. You can blame me if you want, but all I've ever stated was it was illogical to call out anyone without your viewpoint as an idiot. This isn't your board, regardless of how many crappy articles you write. If someone wants to debate a hypothetical future draft prospect, get off your high horse and move on.

I guess I'm also an idiot now because I think a QB leading his team to a come from behind victory shows leadership? Cool. Go with whatever blows your hair back, man. But I could use your same thought process and say that anyone that judges leadership on fuzzy "feelings" or "eye test" is a moron and not worth listening to. So is that fair? Because that is exactly what you want the rest of the board to do for you.

 

[Crazy Balki]

I like both guys, I'm pulling for Malik, but to play devil's advocate to the above...when was the last time we looked as good or better in November (And beyond) than we did in September or October? 2010 is probably the last season we actually looked as good or better than we did in the previous months. Something about November seems to hit us hard and cause the team to slump every year. They don't necessarily lose a lot of games, but they're far closer than they should be.

2011 and 2012 had various reasons, but they weren't terrible Novembers.

2013-15, it's pretty easy to pinpoint the reason for the November struggles. Injuries and a boatload of them, compounding an already thin depth chart.

 

[koonja]

Too many emotions. There are unanswered questions in the home improvement thread I might add. All my vbucks says Watson gets drafted before Kizer. Hope I'm wrong, but Watson is the real deal and Kizer may not even start.

 

[ulukinatme]

2011 and 2012 had various reasons, but they weren't terrible Novembers.

2013-15, it's pretty easy to pinpoint the reason for the November struggles. Injuries and a boatload of them, compounding an already thin depth chart.

I agree to some extent on 2013-15, but at the end of the day they're all really excuses, are they not? I've been saying for the last two years that we can hardly evaluate BVG given all the injuries we've sustained on defense in recent years, and yet people seem to insist he's on the hot seat anyway. Maybe there is some truth to that, as we should have some depth and experienced backups at this point for 2016.

I would say 2012 was a poor November, at least in comparison to September and October. We had triple overtime with Pitt that shouldn't have happened (But always seems to happen anyway, close games with Pitt that is), a stinker against Boston College that should have never been close, and I guess a dismantling of Wake Forest. We beat another Kiffy coached team by 9 points....which may be an impressive feat given the Pitt and BC games. Not a horrible month...but were we better that month than we were in September and October? No way, we took a step back. The same can be said about 2011 I think. We beat Wake Forest in November that year by a mere TD, a 16-14 game against BC, did well against a crappy Maryland squad, and got beat up by Stanford.

 

[Rocket89]

Why exactly would I do that with someone that has stated that anyone that argues against your view is being "crazy" or "outlandish". You obviously do care, as you are the only person... I repeat... The only person... That is saying that anyone that thinks Kizer isn't a worse prospect than Watson is an idiot. That's exactly what you have brought to the table and haven't denied one. Single. Time. You can blame me if you want, but all I've ever stated was it was illogical to call out anyone without your viewpoint as an idiot. This isn't your board, regardless of how many crappy articles you write. If someone wants to debate a hypothetical future draft prospect, get off your high horse and move on.

You don't get it do you? I already told you this is what you do!

You said Kizer > Watson and once I actually brought substance to the table you stopped making it about the quarterbacks and the REAL argument, instead choosing to focus on being offended. Why? Are you tone deaf on the Internet? I never once called you, or anyone else an idiot.

So why are you still acting like I called you an idiot?

Thanks for the shot about the board and writing. Gives some insight into your motivation here. PM if you need to get some stuff off your chest because I'm done arguing with you over this.

 

[Rocket89]

To get back to football talk...

Although Kizer hasn't vaulted up to the heights of future No. 1 overall pick it's been an interesting offseason because he's owned nearly all of the media talk. With Zaire you'd think the summer articles would be a little more focused on QB competition, and while they are to a degree, it seems like Kizer had really taken a hold of the narrative and its difficult to see him losing the job in August.

I was prepared for more drama but I get the sense it's not going to have much at least until the season begins.

 

[woolybug25]

You don't get it do you? I already told you this is what you do!

You said Kizer > Watson and once I actually brought substance to the table you stopped making it about the quarterbacks and the REAL argument, instead choosing to focus on being offended. Why? Are you tone deaf on the Internet? I never once called you, or anyone else an idiot.

So why are you still acting like I called you an idiot?

Thanks for the shot about the board and writing. Gives some insight into your motivation here. PM if you need to get some stuff off your chest because I'm done arguing with you over this.

I added substance, as did many others, then you cried like a baby and told us all we were "crazy" and "outlandish" for having an opinion. Hell, I even said in multiple posts, that I totally understand both opinions. So quit making me out to be some kind of apologist. I didn't just go after you, quite the opposite. You got all butt hurt when I made the simple observation that you shouldn't call everyone stupid for not agreeing with you. Something you still haven't backed down from.

Save the pm, I really don't care what you think and have no desire to "resolve" this made up argument of yours. I made my peace and am not the one telling anyone that their opinion is wrong.

 

[Irish#1]

We'll find out soon enough about Kizer. They real question is, "Was his outstanding play early a result of the newness of him being a starter and the adrenaline flowing?"

How many times have we seen a second team player come in and play outstanding and wonder why they weren't a starter? The level of excitement typically goes through the roof and they are dialed in. After playing several games the excitement wears off because they are used to it. That's when their real talent level shows up and reminds us why the player was not a starter.

Is this what happened to Kizer last year or was it more of a collective drop off by the team? Kizer has and has shown leadership capabilities and it's apparent the players like him. Will Kizer take that next step? We will know this year.

 

[Rocket89]

We'll find out soon enough about Kizer. They real question is, "Was his outstanding play early a result of the newness of him being a starter and the adrenaline flowing?"

How many times have we seen a second team player come in and play outstanding and wonder why they weren't a starter? The level of excitement typically goes through the roof and they are dialed in. After playing several games the excitement wears off because they are used to it. That's when their real talent level shows up and reminds us why the player was not a starter.

Is this what happened to Kizer last year or was it more of a collective drop off by the team? Kizer has and has shown leadership capabilities and it's apparent the players like him. Will Kizer take that next step? We will know this year.

If there was a drop off I would lay it on the team just as much as Kizer.

But, I don't typically like to speak in absolutes as in Kizer dropped off by the end of the year. He was really, really good against Stanford and decent against Ohio State. It's not like he ended the season on a bad note.

I can see how the Wake/BC games it seemed like Kizer was leveling off, though. No question. Still, he did pick things up in the final prime time games which is a big reason why the national media have tabbed him as a rising star.

 

[IrishLion]

To get back to football talk...

Although Kizer hasn't vaulted up to the heights of future No. 1 overall pick it's been an interesting offseason because he's owned nearly all of the media talk. With Zaire you'd think the summer articles would be a little more focused on QB competition, and while they are to a degree, it seems like Kizer had really taken a hold of the narrative and its difficult to see him losing the job in August.

I was prepared for more drama but I get the sense it's not going to have much at least until the season begins.

Malik is going to have to reach another level if he wants to take the job back from Kizer, but that's just IMO. Kizer looked better in the spring game in terms of operating the full offense, and that was with a vanilla offense that should have allowed Malik to close the gap a bit.

Taking meaningful info from a spring game is dangerous, I know, but Kizer just looked so much more in control. Even when Malik is fully comfortable with everything during the summer, Kizer still has a huge jump in terms of operating the full offense, so it's going to be extremely hard for Malik to catch him.

Now that I've typed it, it's almost a sure-thing that Malik wins the job.

 

[fightingirish26]

I added substance, as did many others, then you cried like a baby and told us all we were "crazy" and "outlandish" for having an opinion. Hell, I even said in multiple posts, that I totally understand both opinions. So quit making me out to be some kind of apologist. I didn't just go after you, quite the opposite. You got all butt hurt when I made the simple observation that you shouldn't call everyone stupid for not agreeing with you. Something you still haven't backed down from.

Save the pm, I really don't care what you think and have no desire to "resolve" this made up argument of yours. I made my peace and am not the one telling anyone that their opinion is wrong.

You actually did go after him. He didn't call anybody an idiot, he said it was a crazy argument. If you interpret that as him calling people idiots, I don't how to help you. You've been the one crying like a baby the whole time. Don't know why you can't just let that one go.

Also, Watson>Kizer and it's not really close. Kizer could certainly end up as a better QB, it's too early to tell. He performed far better this year than I was expecting him to, but it's not like he was playing at a Heisman level. Watson was.

 

[woolybug25]

You actually did go after him. He didn't call anybody an idiot, he said it was a crazy argument. If you interpret that as him calling people idiots, I don't how to help you. You've been the one crying like a baby the whole time. Don't know why you can't just let that one go.

Also, Watson>Kizer and it's not really close. Kizer could certainly end up as a better QB, it's too early to tell. He performed far better this year than I was expecting him to, but it's not like he was playing at a Heisman level. Watson was.

Go read the original exchange. He said that anyone that thinks Kizer is better is "crazy talk". Then doubled down by telling us that anyone that disagrees was "outlandish". I'm not trying to pick a fight here (in fact, hopefully the mods could clean up?). I just am not gonna back down just because someone disagrees with me. Hell, I never even told him or you or anyone that their opinion was wrong. So how am I the bad guy.

But whatevs, not sure why you felt the need to bump an argument that ended a while back. This is pretty much a dead argument from yesterday, so no need to raise it up again.

 

[fightingirish26]

Go read the original exchange. He said that anyone that thinks Kizer is better is "crazy talk". Then doubled down by telling us that anyone that disagrees was "outlandish". I'm not trying to pick a fight here (in fact, hopefully the mods could clean up?). I just am not gonna back down just because someone disagrees with me. Hell, I never even told him or you or anyone that their opinion was wrong. So how am I the bad guy.

But whatevs, not sure why you felt the need to bump an argument that ended a while back. This is pretty much a dead argument from yesterday, so no need to raise it up again.

First of all, I responded to your post from this morning. Second of all, calling an argument crazy =/= calling a person crazy. You tried to make it out as though he was personally attacking you, which he wasn't. You then proceeded to attack him, which is why I'll defend him all day.

 

[woolybug25]

First of all, I responded to your post from this morning. Second of all, calling an argument crazy =/= calling a person crazy. You tried to make it out as though he was personally attacking you, which he wasn't. You then proceeded to attack him, which is why I'll defend him all day.

Cool story, bro.