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IrishLax

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You thought that was a great scene? I feel like they ran out of ideas so they just rehashed the Season One finale.

Curious if you also complain whenever another fictional character with abilities uses said abilities to great effect. Heaven forbid Spiderman use webs or Superman fly, amirite?

She hatched a great plan to kill all of the Khals in one fell swoop and wrest control of 100k+ warriors via displaying god-like powers. It was inventive, pragmatic, logical, and deftly executed utilizing the tools at her disposal. Also, it's intentionally a rehash on her part because she saw the effect it had the first time around winning over the remainder of Drogo's khalassar.
 

IrishLax

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I thought she showed a practical application for her fireproof ability that scored her a massive new Army. The season one finale introduced the ability, now she's putting it to use. If she has the ability and never uses it, what is the point? I think the scene was really good.

Exactly.
 

IrishLax

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I liked the scene because it actually moved her story forward but the whole surviving fire thing was kind of a rehash, as wizards mentioned.

Thought the rest of the episode was awesome.

They're just doing such a good job of moving the story forward. I actually like the twist of Jon having Sansa and "the letter" being slightly different than the books while still having the same general premise/effect. I might actually like this situation better (where Jon has Sansa and Ramsay has Rickon) because it really raises the stakes.

I thought the reunion between Jon and Sansa was well executed. I thought Brienne mean mugging on Melisandre was freaking awesome... Brienne just so matter of fact about executing Stannis, and where she stands. I didn't know what to make of Tormund+Brienne... is that a love connection? I don't care. Thought that meal scene was at least interesting with so many different people with different backgrounds around the same table.

The Vale scene with Baelish and Robyn was also great. I thought it illustrated perfectly how Baelish is in a strong position, but the fickle nature of Robyn makes everyone (including him) just a little uneasy because you can never 100% predict what he's going to do. The scene where Robyn's so non-nonchalantly deciding the fate of one of his most prominent bannermen was captivating... also showed that while mild mannered and incompetent, he's got a little Joff in him which is dangerous. Baelish only has power as long as he continues to stay in his favor. In general, I think the casting of Robyn was excellent for this show.
 

gkIrish

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They're just doing such a good job of moving the story forward. I actually like the twist of Jon having Sansa and "the letter" being slightly different than the books while still having the same general premise/effect. I might actually like this situation better (where Jon has Sansa and Ramsay has Rickon) because it really raises the stakes.

I thought the reunion between Jon and Sansa was well executed. I thought Brienne mean mugging on Melisandre was freaking awesome... Brienne just so matter of fact about executing Stannis, and where she stands. I didn't know what to make of Tormund+Brienne... is that a love connection? I don't care. Thought that meal scene was at least interesting with so many different people with different backgrounds around the same table.

The Vale scene with Baelish and Robyn was also great. I thought it illustrated perfectly how Baelish is in a strong position, but the fickle nature of Robyn makes everyone (including him) just a little uneasy because you can never 100% predict what he's going to do. The scene where Robyn's so non-nonchalantly deciding the fate of one of his most prominent bannermen was captivating... also showed that while mild mannered and incompetent, he's got a little Joff in him which is dangerous. Baelish only has power as long as he continues to stay in his favor. In general, I think the casting of Robyn was excellent for this show.

I think they definitely implied that Tormund has the hots for Brienne because he probably values a chick that can bash skulls more than appearance. The look Edd gave them was really funny.

I also liked the Tyrion stuff in this episode. I think the only scenes I continue to dislike are the Jaime/Cersei scenes. Jaime is such a bitch right now and it's pissing me off.
 

Whiskeyjack

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FWIW:

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Because I'm procrastinating dishes as requested by Mrs BFish and feel that my mentions have become too tranquil... <a href="https://t.co/jniKtgs8QD">pic.twitter.com/jniKtgs8QD</a></p>— BryndenBFish (@BryndenBFish) <a href="https://twitter.com/BryndenBFish/status/732046282399854592">May 16, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

So GRRM's Dany isn't fire proof.
 

IrishLax

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I remember when Martin gave that quote, because people had been asking that question for a long time. Martin has actually gone back and forth on that, which is one thing I hate about him. He obviously changes his mind quite a bit on his "rules"... he has no clear vision of how things are until he decides in that moment how something is going to happen.

Remember, at the end of V she gets cooked a little bit. People then started questioning whether she was "fireproof" because she had some "burns" but wasn't cooked to a crisp or anything. Martin had basically established as early as book one that she didn't feel heat the same way as other people... then when put on the spot about her being "fireproof" he deflected for months and months... until answering the question in one instance how he did above. Notice he says "probably not" in classic Martin "leave stuff open ended" BS.

If you go through his appearances before answering the question as he did, he actually flatly refuses to answer the question. Or deflects to her being "mysterious" or whatever. Don't know if those quotes are cataloged anywhere. But he gave the answer above to a question about Targaryens which is important context. He was more answering that question, IMO, because of the fact that other Targs will be revealed and they won't be immune to fire even when they have dragons. He hints that Dany is different... then when pressed on it, gives his classic non-committal answer. So I fully expect her not to be fireproof now, just because he wants to be a dick, but before he had been leaving the door open and that quote really didn't close it how many think it does on surface reading.
 
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Emcee77

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I'm bothered by this "can Daenerys be burnt" issue.

I mean, obviously Targaryens can be burnt. Dragons can even be burnt.

https://www.quora.com/In-Game-of-Thrones-or-the-book-are-all-Targaryens-immune-to-fire

I have no problem with the show making up whatever plotlines and plot events it needs to in order to tie up this wonderful, extravagant mess and bring it to an orderly conclusion, but I have a big problem with the show runners changing the mythology. I don't know why that is a bridge too far for me, but it is.

And Dany can be burnt ...

Can't she? I guess there are hints in the books that she can withstand fire in a greater than normal way, besides the dragon birth scene.

Game of Thrones season 6: Dany's fire immunity, explained - Vox

Yet in various interviews and discussions with fans since then, Martin has attempted to dispel what he has called the "common misconception" that Targaryens are immune to fire. Years ago, he described what happened to Dany as "unique, magical, wondrous, a miracle," but said it "probably" wouldn't happen to her again, and stressed that many other Targaryens have burnt to death.

And in the books since, it hasn't really been tested a second time — at least not explicitly. There is one ambiguous scene in A Dance with Dragons, in which Dany is described as darting underneath her dragon's flames without being seriously injured:

Drogon rose, his wings covering her in shadow. Dany swung the lash at his scaled belly, back and forth until her arm began to ache. His long serpentine neck bent like an archer's bow. With a hisssssss, he spat black fire down at her. Dany darted underneath the flames, swinging the whip and shouting, "No, no, no. Get DOWN!"

Dany later reflects that the flames didn't hurt her in this instance. But she admits that her memories of what happened were "a haze," and the text isn't clear about whether the flames actually hit her, which has led fans to debate whether she survived because of magic or simple luck.

We'll see where they go with it, but I am struggling to come to grips with this.
 

IrishLax

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I'm bothered by this "can Daenerys be burnt" issue.

I mean, obviously Targaryens can be burnt. Dragons can even be burnt.

https://www.quora.com/In-Game-of-Thrones-or-the-book-are-all-Targaryens-immune-to-fire

I have no problem with the show making up whatever plotlines and plot events it needs to in order to tie up this wonderful, extravagant mess and bring it to an orderly conclusion, but I have a big problem with the show runners changing the mythology. I don't know why that is a bridge too far for me, but it is.

And Dany can be burnt ...

Can't she? I guess there are hints in the books that she can withstand fire in a greater than normal way, besides the dragon birth scene.

Game of Thrones season 6: Dany's fire immunity, explained - Vox

We'll see where they go with it, but I am struggling to come to grips with this.

See my above post. People are grossly misconstruing GRRM's quote. This topic really has been discussed for a long time before last night's episode. This reddit post from awhile back gets into it some... there is evidence that she is "flame retardant," but not "unburnable."

https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthro..._spoilers_daenerys_is_not_immune_to_fire_but/

So people can quibble over a departure from the books, but I think that's BS considering 1) how non-committal Martin is to how "burnable" she is... his quote was mainly about all Targs not Dany... when pushed on how how Dany would react in another situation he says merely "probably not" while in other instances before he had said things like "I don't know" and "maybe" when asked about her immunity to fire 2) the evidence in the book that she is flame retardant (she gets hit with enough fire to burn off her hair but only has some very minor superficial burns).

Now, I'm sure that given what the show did, Martin is going to have her ultimately burn to death just to be an asshole. But people need to stop taking a waffling Martin "probably not" quote as direct cannon given that there is actual, textual evidence that she has resistance to fire.
 

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See my above post. People are grossly misconstruing GRRM's quote. This topic really has been discussed for a long time before last night's episode. This reddit post from awhile back gets into it some... there is evidence that she is "flame retardant," but not "unburnable."

https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthro..._spoilers_daenerys_is_not_immune_to_fire_but/

So people can quibble over a departure from the books, but I think that's BS considering 1) how non-committal Martin is to how "burnable" she is... his quote was mainly about all Targs not Dany... when pushed on how how Dany would react in another situation he says merely "probably not" while in other instances before he had said things like "I don't know" and "maybe" when asked about her immunity to fire 2) the evidence in the book that she is flame retardant (she gets hit with enough fire to burn off her hair but only has some very minor superficial burns).

Now, I'm sure that given what the show did, Martin is going to have her ultimately burn to death just to be an asshole. But people need to stop taking a waffling Martin "probably not" quote as direct cannon given that there is actual, textual evidence that she has resistance to fire.

I agree. I took Martin's quote to almost be more of a "I don't have any more plans in the narrative for her to be fire resistant." I think he like many on here feel that repeating the fire resistance thing is repetitive, and that's why she doesn't need to be fireproof. Simply because he doesn't plan on doing anything else with the ability.
 
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IrishLax

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Also, the show has established in like 500 different scenes fire resistance. Season 1, episode 1 they slightly changed the bath scene from the book to really communicate fire resistance. Then there was the dragon egg scene where her girl burns her hands but she's fine. This is show-only additive just for fire resistance. Then she survives the funeral pyre (but you can chalk that up to "magic" per GRRM from a novel standpoint). And then you have last night.

Do people really think the show put in two primer scenes without any sort of magic additive to establish her fire resistance without GRRM telling them to do that and it was important? Him trying to retcon in an interview years later what he had done and had said previously and had written is just ludicrous.
 

FDNYIrish1

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I think they definitely implied that Tormund has the hots for Brienne because he probably values a chick that can bash skulls more than appearance. The look Edd gave them was really funny.

I also liked the Tyrion stuff in this episode. I think the only scenes I continue to dislike are the Jaime/Cersei scenes. Jaime is such a bitch right now and it's pissing me off.

That Brienne is actually a smoke show in real life. Saw some pics of her, didn't know she was a model. They're pulling the Charlize Theron thing on her and making her not hot.
 

Emcee77

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Also, the show has established in like 500 different scenes fire resistance. Season 1, episode 1 they slightly changed the bath scene from the book to really communicate fire resistance. Then there was the dragon egg scene where her girl burns her hands but she's fine. This is show-only additive just for fire resistance. Then she survives the funeral pyre (but you can chalk that up to "magic" per GRRM from a novel standpoint). And then you have last night.

Do people really think the show put in two primer scenes without any sort of magic additive to establish her fire resistance without GRRM telling them to do that and it was important? Him trying to retcon in an interview years later what he had done and had said previously and had written is just ludicrous.

It's a good point. I was afraid that the show was extrapolating a general Targs-are-fireproof principle from the dragon birth scene that wasn't in the books, but it is totally possible, even likely, that the show has inside info. I hope you are right.

The problem for me was never so much what Martin has or hasn't said about it in interviews though. It was more that, if Dany is fireproof, how does that work? Why is she fireproof but not other Targaryens? Is the show going to avoid those questions and make it an all-Targs-are-fireproof universe? That would annoy me. But it's too early to really know where they are going with this stuff, and as you say, they could be going somewhere very logical that we don't know about but GRRM and the showrunners do know about.
 

Whiskeyjack

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It's a good point. I was afraid that the show was extrapolating a general Targs-are-fireproof principle from the dragon birth scene that wasn't in the books, but it is totally possible, even likely, that the show has inside info. I hope you are right.

The problem for me was never so much what Martin has or hasn't said about it in interviews though. It was more that, if Dany is fireproof, how does that work? Why is she fireproof but not other Targaryens? Is the show going to avoid those questions and make it an all-Targs-are-fireproof universe? That would annoy me. But it's too early to really know where they are going with this stuff, and as you say, they could be going somewhere very logical that we don't know about but GRRM and the showrunners do know about.

Exactly. It's annoying because, from a book reader's perspective, it's lazy writing. Would be beneath Martin.

But Benioff and Weis have had to take much more extreme liberties with the story than this, so meh.
 

wizards8507

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Curious if you also complain whenever another fictional character with abilities uses said abilities to great effect. Heaven forbid Spiderman use webs or Superman fly, amirite?

She hatched a great plan to kill all of the Khals in one fell swoop and wrest control of 100k+ warriors via displaying god-like powers. It was inventive, pragmatic, logical, and deftly executed utilizing the tools at her disposal. Also, it's intentionally a rehash on her part because she saw the effect it had the first time around winning over the remainder of Drogo's khalassar.
1. As others have stated, Dany isn't supposed to have superpowers.

2. The issue isn't her "using" her powers, it's the repetitive nature of the "baptism by fire, emerging naked from the flames" narrative device. It's not like Spider-Man using webs over and over, it's more like Spider-Man's Aunt May dying in a tragic fashion after already watching Spider-Man's Uncle Ben die in a tragic fashion. The naked-Dany-emerges-from-fire-and-becomes-a-badass isn't supposed to be a recurring narrative. It's her origin story.
 

IrishLax

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Exactly. It's annoying because, from a book reader's perspective, it's lazy writing. Would be beneath Martin.

Highly ironic considering that this discussion really came to a head years ago after ADWD was published specifically because of lazy/poor writing by GRRM. There are numerous inconsistencies, etc. throughout his books (like the whole "wide hips" debate) that are nothing more than him having a less-than-firm grasp on his own universe. At least he owned his mistake with the hips, and has admitted that he can't keep things straight sometimes and therefor relies heavily on 3rd parties in order to not make more errors.

The fire resistance aspect for Dany is a topic he has royally waffled on and has never, ever given clear direction. It was widely discussed after ADWD, because the scene in the fighting pit is written in an extremely confusing manner. She gets her hair burned off... but she only has very minor superficial burns on her hands? This confused many people, because until this point people had generally assumed she was fireproof. They had hinted at it throughout the novels, and then there was the funeral pyre scene.

After the pit scene, people went "hmmm... soo... is she not fireproof?" Then and only then did Martin start waffling on the topic. For awhile he completely deflected the question and refused to answer it, likely because he didn't want to back himself further into a corner.

Then -- in the money quote everyone keeps citing -- he is asked a question about all Targaryens being fireproof after bonding with dragons and gives an answer. He points out that Dany's funeral pyre moment should not be considered a rule of thumb for all Targs or her moving forward... and then the person presses him on it and he doesn't give a clear answer.

"Probably not." So he basically retconned what people had assumed for years, just because he could, then waffled on it... then waffled on it some more... and then gave an ambiguous answer.

Again, 100% chance he has Dany die in a fire now in the books just because he can and just to be a dick.
 

IrishLax

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1. As others have stated, Dany isn't supposed to have superpowers.

2. The issue isn't her "using" her powers, it's the repetitive nature of the "baptism by fire, emerging naked from the flames" narrative device. It's not like Spider-Man using webs over and over, it's more like Spider-Man's Aunt May dying in a tragic fashion after already watching Spider-Man's Uncle Ben die in a tragic fashion. The naked-Dany-emerges-from-fire-and-becomes-a-badass isn't supposed to be a recurring narrative. It's her origin story.

1. She absolutely is supposed to have some unique powers -- as many characters do -- hence literally everything that has happened. If you want to get your panties in a bunch over "probably not" that's your prerogative.

2. Fine. Direct comparison: do you get mad when Bran constantly wargs to accomplish shit (either through Summer or Hodor)?
 

IrishLax

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It's a good point. I was afraid that the show was extrapolating a general Targs-are-fireproof principle from the dragon birth scene that wasn't in the books, but it is totally possible, even likely, that the show has inside info. I hope you are right.

The problem for me was never so much what Martin has or hasn't said about it in interviews though. It was more that, if Dany is fireproof, how does that work? Why is she fireproof but not other Targaryens? Is the show going to avoid those questions and make it an all-Targs-are-fireproof universe? That would annoy me. But it's too early to really know where they are going with this stuff, and as you say, they could be going somewhere very logical that we don't know about but GRRM and the showrunners do know about.

I think it's the same question as asking why if Bran and Jon Snow can warg, why can't Sansa? Why was Viserys a little bitch and how could Jon Snow get burned (despite being a Targ, right?) but Dany is fireproof?

It's really tough.

But there are some people who act like in the books it was clearly established that she isn't flame retardant and it has always been that way... truth is it's quite ambiguous, to the point of almost not making sense, because of GRRM's bad writing.

I do think the overall funniest thing is people who criticize D&D while not owning that GRRM basically turned into a shit writer after book 3 and has done nothing since to establish he has any idea what he's doing or even full control of his own universe. So when people latch on to an offhand and misinterpreted quote he gave... something that isn't even part of the books... and throw a fit it bothers me. You're obviously not doing that, but I've seen neckbeards all over the internet throwing tantrums since last night and it's absurd.
 

Whiskeyjack

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Highly ironic considering that this discussion really came to a head years ago after ADWD was published specifically because of lazy/poor writing by GRRM...

No argument there. I think his decision to do split narratives between AFfC and ADwD was disastrous. He's brought much of this on himself by publishing three of the best modern fantasy novels ever written between 1996 and 2000, filling them with incredibly subtle prophesies/ foreshadowing, and then managing to advance the series through only two vastly inferior books over the following 16 years...
 
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Emcee77

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I think it's the same question as asking why if Bran and Jon Snow can warg, why can't Sansa? Why was Viserys a little bitch and how could Jon Snow get burned (despite being a Targ, right?) but Dany is fireproof?

It's really tough.

But there are some people who act like in the books it was clearly established that she isn't flame retardant and it has always been that way... truth is it's quite ambiguous, to the point of almost not making sense, because of GRRM's bad writing.

I do think the overall funniest thing is people who criticize D&D while not owning that GRRM basically turned into a shit writer after book 3 and has done nothing since to establish he has any idea what he's doing or even full control of his own universe. So when people latch on to an offhand and misinterpreted quote he gave... something that isn't even part of the books... and throw a fit it bothers me. You're obviously not doing that, but I've seen neckbeards all over the internet throwing tantrums since last night and it's absurd.

I. Could. Not. Agree. More. GRRM openly admits, as I think you have already mentioned in this thread, that he can't keep straight his own universe. He actually enlists the help of his own fans to help prevent continuity errors. The 2011 New Yorker profile is instructive on this:

Elio García estimates that he spends up to thirty-five hours a month supervising Westeros.org, the “Song of Ice and Fire” discussion site.
. . .

García is a superfan. His knowledge of Martin’s invented world is so encyclopedic that the author has referred HBO researchers to him when they have questions regarding the production of “Game of Thrones.” Although García’s participation in Westeros.org is voluntary, his involvement with Martin’s work has become semi-professional. He is being paid to consult with licensors creating tie-in merchandise and to write text for a video game based on the series. He and Martin are collaborating on a comprehensive guide to the books, “The World of Ice and Fire.” Martin himself sometimes checks with García when he’s not sure he’s got a detail right. Martin told me, “I’ll write something and e-mail him to ask, ‘Did I ever mention this before?’ And he writes me right back: ‘Yes, on page 17 of Book Four.’ “

The proliferation of plot elements is a major reason that Martin’s writing pace has slowed. “A Song of Ice and Fire” primarily takes place over several years on a continent about the size of South America. Each chapter is narrated in the third person, from the point of view of a single character. The first book had eight major viewpoint characters, but by “A Feast for Crows” the total for the series had grown to seventeen, each in a different location and enmeshed in a complex plot—fighting in wars, journeying through arduous terrain, scheming to steal a throne.

Making sure that the chronologies of the different stories line up has particularly bedevilled Martin. He said, “I have to ask myself, ‘How long is it going to take this character to get from point A to point B by ship? Meanwhile, what’s happened in the other book? If it’s going to take him this long, but in the other book I said that he’d already arrived there, then I’m in trouble. So I have to have him leave earlier.’ That kind of stuff has driven me crazy.” Last year, he wrote on his blog, “I know perfectly well that as soon as ‘Dance’ is published, some of you out there are going to attempt to correlate its chronology with that of ‘A Feast for Crows.’ . . . Well, it may well make your head explode. It did mine. The ‘Dance’ timeline alone is a bitch and a half.”

Martin is in the unusual position of being a writer whose work is attended to even more closely by his readers than by himself. And, as the panorama of “A Song of Ice and Fire” has grown ever more expansive, Martin has become increasingly afraid that he’ll make mistakes. He has already made some tiny ones: “My fans point them out to me. I have a horse that changes sex between books. He was a mare in one book and a stallion in the next, or something like that.” The eyes of one supporting character are described as green in one passage and blue in another. As Martin puts it, “People are analyzing every goddam line in these books, and if I make a mistake they’re going to nail me on it.”

I love the series, but it annoys me when people act like this guy is Tolkien and James Joyce and David Foster Wallace rolled into one. It's not fair of us to expect him to be that good, good enough to keep encyclopedic knowledge of a whole fictive world in his head while he writes these books. And that's no slight against him; only a true once-in-a-generation genius would be. But I think a lot of people want to be a little blind to what's causing the problems with the writing at this stage. The project is too big for the man. Doesn't mean he won't get it right in the end, but it will take awhile.
 

wizards8507

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2. Fine. Direct comparison: do you get mad when Bran constantly wargs to accomplish shit (either through Summer or Hodor)?
That's not the same thing. A better comparison would be "would you think it's lazy writing to have Bran sharpen his warging skills by falling off another tower?"

We already had the scene where Dany becomes a badass through fire. If she wants to go be a badass, then fine. But we don't need to see her become a badass through fire again.
 

IrishLax

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That's not the same thing. A better comparison would be "would you think it's lazy writing to have Bran sharpen his warging skills by falling off another tower?"

You're leaving out a "purpose" in the hypothetical second tower wall.

It's not like she used fire "just because"... she's in a place where no weapons are allowed. She's greatly outnumbered. And she used it as a tool... as a perfect means to an end.

We already had the scene where Dany becomes a badass through fire. If she wants to go be a badass, then fine. But we don't need to see her become a badass through fire again.

The counterpoint I'd make to this is that the first time around only a couple people saw it happen, and they became immediately awed and devoted to her cause. Now she puts on for 100k+ people, knowing exactly what effect it will have, and executes it flawlessly.

I had imagined in the books she'd have Drogon burn and/or eat that Khal she swore vengeance on in AGoT and gain a Khalassar that way... I think going pyro on all the Khals at once and out-witting them is an infinitely cooler play. But that's just my opinion.
 

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You thought that was a great scene? I feel like they ran out of ideas so they just rehashed the Season One finale.

Whole scene felt very forced to me and the final result almost seemed too easy. Something tells me they all wouldn't just cower in the corner for 10 seconds when the fire started...that scene was more annoying than entertaining to me, although I'm happy with the final result since it will hopefully get her character back on track.

I'm probably biased because I went from being a big fan of Dany's story line to hating it the last two seasons. Just haven't been into her character at all so I'm probably judging that scene harder than I should be.
 

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If that Dany scene was realistic I think one of the Khals would have taken her down with him once they realized there was no way out. Maybe they didn't have weapons with them, though. I don't remember if they did or not. If they did , could have easily thrown a dagger into her head and put us all out of our misery lol.
 
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greyhammer90

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You're leaving out a "purpose" in the hypothetical second tower wall.

It's not like she used fire "just because"... she's in a place where no weapons are allowed. She's greatly outnumbered. And she used it as a tool... as a perfect means to an end.



The counterpoint I'd make to this is that the first time around only a couple people saw it happen, and they became immediately awed and devoted to her cause. Now she puts on for 100k+ people, knowing exactly what effect it will have, and executes it flawlessly.

I had imagined in the books she'd have Drogon burn and/or eat that Khal she swore vengeance on in AGoT and gain a Khalassar that way... I think going pyro on all the Khals at once and out-witting them is an infinitely cooler play. But that's just my opinion.

I didn't mind the burning, but I wish they wouldve come up with a more plausible scenario for it to happen in. So every single Khal is in that one building and there are two lone guardsmen outside? Where are all their night riders? No one running up to the burning building is going to unlock the door? No group of the fifteenish Khals thought about rushing Dany after the first lantern got knocked over and breaking her neck? Sure the place is already on fire but I know she's just going to knock more over. I suppose it's possible they would all rush for the door, but if I was coming up with the plan that would be a massive "here's hoping!" moment. Also, it made some sense that people who were already used to her being Khaleesi would bow to her the first time she did this and emerged with dragons. It is just as likely this time that a night rider would walk up to her standing in front of the fire and chop her head off for killing his Khal.
 

zelezo vlk

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If that Dany scene was realistic I think one of the Khals would have taken her down with him once they realized there was no way out. Maybe they didn't have weapons with them, though. I don't remember if they did or not. If they did , could have easily thrown a dagger into her head and put us all out of our misery lol.

Weapons aren't allowed in the sacred city.

My question is, why did everything immediately go up in flames? Was that explained or am I just being too picky?
 

gkIrish

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Weapons aren't allowed in the sacred city.

My question is, why did everything immediately go up in flames? Was that explained or am I just being too picky?

That's right I forgot about that. But they could have snapped her neck like greyhammer says.
 

IrishLax

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I didn't mind the burning, but I wish they wouldve come up with a more plausible scenario for it to happen in. So every single Khal is in that one building and there are two lone guardsmen outside? Where are all their night riders? No one running up to the burning building is going to unlock the door? No group of the fifteenish Khals thought about rushing Dany after the first lantern got knocked over and breaking her neck? Sure the place is already on fire but I know she's just going to knock more over. I suppose it's possible they would all rush for the door, but if I was coming up with the plan that would be a massive "here's hoping!" moment. Also, it made some sense that people who were already used to her being Khaleesi would bow to her the first time she did this and emerged with dragons. It is just as likely this time that a night rider would walk up to her standing in front of the fire and chop her head off for killing his Khal.

Well you have to remember it's expressly forbidden to carry a weapon in the city, and there is seriously ingrained expectation of no bloodshed in Vaes Dothrak. They have no reason to fear (or so they think) a little girl, and everyone else is the city is literally in service to one of the people in the building. In the hundreds and hundreds of years that the city has existed nothing like that has ever happened. So why would they expect anything to go wrong?

As to the whole "group think" sort of self-preservation mentality, their first instinct is to rush for the door. It's the same reason that a room of 30 people can be shot up by one guy with a gun who reloads multiple times. If all 30 people were smart they'd rush the shooter and take him out... he'd get maybe 5 people. But human nature has proved people don't behave that way. They instead all cower in fear or act obediently or try to hide or try to run.

Whenever there is a fire in real life, people generally stampede for the exit rather than try to grab a fire extinguisher UNLESS there is a "designated fire extinguisher grabber" type of person in a school, etc. In this case, as the dry wood in the middle of a desert goes up in flames... their first thought is not "kill the person who is going to die anyways"... it's "oh crap I need to get out of here." By the time they get to the door and realize that they can't get out (after trying really really hard to get out for a few seconds... because, you know, self preservation) it's already too late.

Now, at that point, it's totally plausible that someone while being burned to death would've been like "fuck it I want to strangle this bitch"... but at that point, I think they truly don't understand that she's going to live. I think they think she's dead anyway, so what would be the point? Stopping her from tipping over another brazier wouldn't change the fact that they're going to die or that she's going to die (in their mind).
 

Whiskeyjack

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I didn't mind the burning, but I wish they wouldve come up with a more plausible scenario for it to happen in. So every single Khal is in that one building and there are two lone guardsmen outside? Where are all their night riders? No one running up to the burning building is going to unlock the door? No group of the fifteenish Khals thought about rushing Dany after the first lantern got knocked over and breaking her neck? Sure the place is already on fire but I know she's just going to knock more over. I suppose it's possible they would all rush for the door, but if I was coming up with the plan that would be a massive "here's hoping!" moment. Also, it made some sense that people who were already used to her being Khaleesi would bow to her the first time she did this and emerged with dragons. It is just as likely this time that a night rider would walk up to her standing in front of the fire and chop her head off for killing his Khal.

Martin, Benioff and Weis all explicitly point out that Dothraki society is premised on brute force; that they "follow strength above all", and that once a Khal shows weakness, he will either be challenged and killed, or his khalasar will abandon him. So these guys are all supposed to be macho bad asses, the alpha males of a brutal pastoral society.

And yet they all just sit there while a smirking Daenerys insults them, and then they scream like little girls and run in circles when she pushes over a brazier.

Weapons aren't allowed in the sacred city.

My question is, why did everything immediately go up in flames? Was that explained or am I just being too picky?

There is no reason, other than lazy writing. Attila would have well understood the risk of gathering his entire power structure in a tinder box of a structure filled with torches (as would any average Hun; they knew how to build shelters that wouldn't go up in the flames like that).

Would have been much better to have Dany subdue the Dothraki via Drogon.
 

IrishLax

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Martin, Benioff and Weis all explicitly point out that Dothraki society is premised on brute force; that they "follow strength above all", and that once a Khal shows weakness, he will either be challenged and killed, or his khalasar will abandon him. So these guys are all supposed to be macho bad asses, the alpha males of a brutal pastoral society.

And yet they all just sit there while a smirking Daenerys insults them, and then they scream like little girls and run in circles when she pushes over a brazier.

There is no reason, other than lazy writing. Attila would have well understood the risk of gathering his entire power structure in a tinder box of a structure filled with torches (as would any average Hun; they knew how to build shelters that wouldn't go up in the flames like that).

Would have been much better to have Dany subdue the Dothraki via Drogon.

1. Panic is reasonable, perfect human nature.

2. Eh, maybe, if you use mud correctly sure. But medieval construction did not exactly meet fire code.

3. No, that would've been predictable, and would've shown no character development.
 
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