2016 Presidential Horse Race

2016 Presidential Horse Race


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Veritate Duce Progredi

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These are six white men out of a nation of millions who helped bring about incrimental progress toward equality. Not to take anything away from any of those men you mentioned but their great steps toward equality does not overcome experiences of lynchings and dehumanizing treatment of African Americans witnessed by Wright's generation. It doesn't overcome institutionalized racism in law enforcement or the courts, and it doesn't overcome the long standing and still active attempts to disenfranchise African Americans.

The accomplishments of the men on your list were, in the big picture, small steps in a journey whose destination is still far away. We would all do well to listen to those people most affected by our past and present policies that still act to hold black people down. Signing a law that removes discrimination in civil service hiring, signing Jackie Robinson as the first black major leaguer, or even signing the first civil rights legislation were all met with widespread societal outrage. You can't ignore that part of Wright's experience or anyone else's.

This nation has a dark history and Wright has the right to talk about it, just as Trump has the right to demonize Muslims and Mexicans. It is important to note, however, that Wright is not running to be president. We can all draw whatever conclusions we wish about the words of Wright and of Trump, but let's consider them in the context of human experience. Wright has reasons for being angry. It is weird that you are consistently the first to defend lifetime rich and privileged Trump's free speech and its obvious implications, yet are so dismissive of Wright as a hateful racist. This is especially true as Wright's beliefs are anchored in a lifetime of experience and Trump's are so clearly directed at appealing to the worst instincts of ignorance and intolerance that still exists in this country ... despite the efforts of a few good white men.

Why do you have to call it "dark history"? Since most atrocities have been committed by the white man, we should start calling it light history. It's unfair that people of darker color, attributed mostly to increased melatonin production near the equator, should have to carry the negative connotations loosely associated with their darker complexion.

Further, Reverend Wright has it right. Damn America and damn everyone who is involved with it's corrupted, hegemonic stances. We kill the children in our wombs, we demand people march lockstep with the social movement du jour and above all, we demand no one ever have their feelings hurt. We are collapsing from within so there'll soon be nothing left to hate besides our history.

Cheers!
 

GoIrish41

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What's amazing to me is how absolutely hypocritical some views of some liberals are. People think it's ok for Wright to disparage white people because of what was going on around him as he grew up. But if some white pastor who grew up next to Compton said that black people are gangbanging drug dealers, those same people would be OUTRAGED.......... and they would feel unsafe and need counseling. They would throw out names like Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., Jackie Robinson, Oprah Winfrey, and Thurgood Marshall as examples of black people who are fine upstanding citizens who have made contributions to white society as well as their own. If you downplayed those examples and talked about how few they were, you would be shouted down as an insane racist.


It's got nothing to do with Trump. I have never defended Trump making racist statements. What I HAVE said, which you apparently have interpreted in whatever manner best suits your prejudiced opinion of me, is that certain allegations made about the guy are based on what people THINK he said, not what he actually said.

The same is true of Wright, is it not? Listen to what he actually said, not what you want to believe he said. He was comparing the stability of God's word to the instability of government morality. But you hear racist hater and dismiss everything else he says as ignorant nonsense. With Trump you do the opposite -- you ignore his obvious ignorant, nonsensical message and focus on what you think he meant. You know as well as everyone else what he meant when he said, quote, "they are rapists." I mean, there is not much room for interpretation. But Wright talks about historical facts from the perspective of those on the losing end of them and you conclude he is a hatemonger. That, my friend, is hypocrisy of the highest order.
 
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kmoose

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The same is true of Wright, is it not? Listen to what he actually said, not what you want to believe he said. He was comparing the stability of God's word to the instability of government morality. But you hear racist hater and dismiss everything else he says as ignorant nonsense. With Trump you do the opposite -- you ignore his obvious ignorant, nonsensical message and focus on what you think he meant. You know as well as everyone else what he meant when he said, quote, "they are rapists." I mean, there is not much room for interpretation. But Wright talks about historical facts from the perspective of those on the losing end of them and you conclude he is a hatemonger. That, my friend, is hypocrisy of the highest order.

Who did Trump say that about?
 

NDRock

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Who did Trump say that about?

Parse away.

Statement from Donald J. Trump:

I don’t see how there is any room for misunderstanding or misinterpretation of the statement I made on June 16th during my Presidential announcement speech. Here is what I said, and yet this statement is deliberately distorted by the media:

“When Mexico (meaning the Mexican Government) sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you (pointing to the audience). They’re not sending you (pointing again). They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems to us. They’re bringing drugs.They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people! But I speak to border guards and they tell us what we’re getting. And it only makes common sense. They’re sending us not the right people. It’s coming from more than Mexico. It’s coming from all over South and Latin America, and it’s coming probably from the Middle East. But we don’t know. Because we have no protection and we have no competence, we don’t know what’s happening. And it’s got to stop and it’s got to stop fast.”

What can be simpler or more accurately stated? The Mexican Government is forcing their most unwanted people into the United States. They are, in many cases, criminals, drug dealers, rapists, etc. This was evident just this week when, as an example, a young woman in San Francisco was viciously killed by a 5 time deported Mexican with a long criminal record, who was forced back into the United States because they didn’t want him in Mexico. This is merely one of thousands of similar incidents throughout the United States. In other words, the worst elements in Mexico are being pushed into the United States by the Mexican
government.
...
 

kmoose

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Parse away.

Statement from Donald J. Trump:

I don’t see how there is any room for misunderstanding or misinterpretation of the statement I made on June 16th during my Presidential announcement speech. Here is what I said, and yet this statement is deliberately distorted by the media:

“When Mexico (meaning the Mexican Government) sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you (pointing to the audience). They’re not sending you (pointing again). They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems to us. They’re bringing drugs.They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people! But I speak to border guards and they tell us what we’re getting. And it only makes common sense. They’re sending us not the right people. It’s coming from more than Mexico. It’s coming from all over South and Latin America, and it’s coming probably from the Middle East. But we don’t know. Because we have no protection and we have no competence, we don’t know what’s happening. And it’s got to stop and it’s got to stop fast.”

What can be simpler or more accurately stated? The Mexican Government is forcing their most unwanted people into the United States. They are, in many cases, criminals, drug dealers, rapists, etc. This was evident just this week when, as an example, a young woman in San Francisco was viciously killed by a 5 time deported Mexican with a long criminal record, who was forced back into the United States because they didn’t want him in Mexico. This is merely one of thousands of similar incidents throughout the United States. In other words, the worst elements in Mexico are being pushed into the United States by the Mexican
government.
...

So he was talking about the people that the Mexican government sends over here. Not the people who come legally, or even the people who voluntarily come illegally.
 

GoIrish41

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So he was talking about the people that the Mexican government sends over here. Not the people who come legally, or even the people who voluntarily come illegally.

There is absolutely no evidence that the Mexican government is sending anyone here. He was doing what he always does, shooting his mouth off about something he knows nothing about.
 
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NDinL.A.

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So he was talking about the people that the Mexican government sends over here. Not the people who come legally, or even the people who voluntarily come illegally.

Do you really not see that the guy just makes shit up out of thin air and passes it off as fact seemingly on a daily basis? Ask him for proof and he'll either avoid the question, say he read it somewhere, or attack the reporter personally LOL. Its crazy how many examples of this there are out.

There is no proof that Mexico is sending these criminals back to the US. It's just more fear mongering from him, and it's VERY effective with people who don't know better or already have preconceived notions of Latinos/Mexicans.
 

kmoose

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There is absolutely no evidence that the Mexican government is sending anyone here. He was doing what he always does, shooting his mouth off about something he knows nothing about.

I completely agree that there is no evidence that Mexico is sending criminals to this country, as Castro did during the Mariel boatlift. But that's not the point. The point is that many liberals will tell you that Trump "called Mexicans rapists". They imply that he referred to ANYONE and EVERYONE of Mexican heritage as a rapist. And that's just not true.

Look, if you want to convince people that they shouldn't vote for Trump, there's plenty of effective arguments you can make: His A-type personality will make it almost impossible for him to build any kind of coalition....... domestic or foreign; he's got practically zero foreign policy experience and he doesn't seem to intuitively understand that the President of the United States does not get to just dictate things to other countries; and he doesn't seem to have the desire to learn anything new, or even admit that he could learn something new. All of those are very good reasons not to vote for him. But saying that you shouldn't vote for a guy who called an entire country rapists isn't one.
 

GoIrish41

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I completely agree that there is no evidence that Mexico is sending criminals to this country, as Castro did during the Mariel boatlift. But that's not the point. The point is that many liberals will tell you that Trump "called Mexicans rapists". They imply that he referred to ANYONE and EVERYONE of Mexican heritage as a rapist. And that's just not true.

Look, if you want to convince people that they shouldn't vote for Trump, there's plenty of effective arguments you can make: His A-type personality will make it almost impossible for him to build any kind of coalition....... domestic or foreign; he's got practically zero foreign policy experience and he doesn't seem to intuitively understand that the President of the United States does not get to just dictate things to other countries; and he doesn't seem to have the desire to learn anything new, or even admit that he could learn something new. All of those are very good reasons not to vote for him. But saying that you shouldn't vote for a guy who called an entire country rapists isn't one.

Nobody is saying that! Nobody!

He said Mexican immigrants who came illegally were rapists. Further he said the Mexican government was sending them. He was talking out his ass. You act as if he had some coherent policy in mind before he stepped up to the podium and he was careful about how he articulated it. He didn't. It was clear what he said and what he meant. You are simply being obtuse about this.
 
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drayer54

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Nobody is saying that! Nobody!

He said Mexican immigrants who came illegally were rapists. Further he said the Mexican government was sending them. He was talking out his ass. You act as if he had some coherent policy in mind before he stepped up to the podium and he was careful about how he articulated it. He didn't. It was clear what he said and what he meant. You are simply being obtuse about this.

Is this how you interpreted "Make America Great Again?"
 

kmoose

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Nobody is saying that! Nobody!

He said Mexican immigrants who came illegally were rapists. Further he said the Mexican government was sending them. He was talking out his ass. You act as if he had some coherent policy in mind before he stepped up to the podium and he was careful about how he articulated it. He didn't. It was clear what he said and what he meant. You are simply being obtuse about this.

Are you saying that Trump's intent was to plant the thought in people's heads that all illegal immigrants from Mexico are rapists?
 

irishfan

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It's almost like Trump purposely phrased it in a way that would get the most media attention and could be interpreted multiple ways...
 

IrishJayhawk

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Are you saying that Trump's intent was to plant the thought in people's heads that all illegal immigrants from Mexico are rapists?

Not all of them. He did say that he assumed that some are good people, though that was a serious afterthought. But he's giving Americans a group to fear and rally against. They're stealing our jobs, corrupting our children, and raping our women... Do you think he wasn't doing that?

0806-Took-Jerbs.jpg



ETA: The idea that immigrants (illegal or otherwise) are more likely to commit crimes is also without factual backing. The Mythical Connection Between Immigrants and Crime - WSJ
 
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kmoose

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Not all of them. He did say that he assumed that some are good people, though that was a serious afterthought. But he's giving Americans a group to fear and rally against. They're stealing our jobs, corrupting our children, and raping our women... Do you think he wasn't doing that?

0806-Took-Jerbs.jpg



ETA: The idea that immigrants (illegal or otherwise) are more likely to commit crimes is also without factual backing. The Mythical Connection Between Immigrants and Crime - WSJ
I wasn't asking you.........
 

phgreek

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Not all of them. He did say that he assumed that some are good people, though that was a serious afterthought. But he's giving Americans a group to fear and rally against. They're stealing our jobs, corrupting our children, and raping our women... Do you think he wasn't doing that?

0806-Took-Jerbs.jpg



ETA: The idea that immigrants (illegal or otherwise) are more likely to commit crimes is also without factual backing. The Mythical Connection Between Immigrants and Crime - WSJ

The reason we have immigration policy...is????

To ensure those who come here have skills and abilities to live here without having to resort to crime, and to make sure we aren't letting in people who already are criminals.

If we fail there, we have a batting average to critique, modify, design change, and implement. We also have a way of looking at the country and letting in those that we need. In this way immigration is an investment in our future.

Illegal immigration does not allow the intent/design features that are critical. The feedback data is shoddy and manipulated, but most of all each and every instance of crime perpetrated by an illegal simply cannot be defended, much less mitigated by %s of the illegal population actually commiting crimes.

To use an issue in an analogy all you guys love...

Scenario 1: If I fire a weapon in the air above a crowd, and out of 1000 bullets, only 2 hit someone...

Scenario 2: 4 guys out of 1000 were hit by fire in the opener of the duck hunt

Why is scenario 1 way more offensive even though fewer people got hurt?

So by all means show me data that tells me illegals are not more likely to do X,Y,Z than legal immigrants...shrug. Stop firing the gun up in the air, and that number is 0....Seewhatum sayin.
 

pkt77242

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The reason we have immigration policy...is????

To ensure those who come here have skills and abilities to live here without having to resort to crime, and to make sure we aren't letting in people who already are criminals.

If we fail there, we have a batting average to critique, modify, design change, and implement. We also have a way of looking at the country and letting in those that we need. In this way immigration is an investment in our future.

Illegal immigration does not allow the intent/design features that are critical. The feedback data is shoddy and manipulated, but most of all each and every instance of crime perpetrated by an illegal simply cannot be defended, much less mitigated by %s of the illegal population actually commiting crimes.

To use an issue in an analogy all you guys love...

Scenario 1: If I fire a weapon in the air above a crowd, and out of 1000 bullets, only 2 hit someone...

Scenario 2: 4 guys out of 1000 were hit by fire in the opener of the duck hunt

Why is scenario 1 way more offensive even though fewer people got hurt?

So by all means show me data that tells me illegals are not more likely to do X,Y,Z than legal immigrants...shrug. Stop firing the gun up in the air, and that number is 0....Seewhatum sayin.

Except the idea that we can have 0 illegal immigrants is extremely improbable. Could we reduce it some with more money being thrown at it, sure, but the idea that we can "stop firing the gun in the air" when it comes to illegal immigration is laughable. There is a cost/benefit analysis that needs to be done when increasing spending on fighting illegal immigration, and reports like this help us to make more informed decisions.

For the record I am for a small elevation of spending on increased manpower (both at the Southern and Northern border).
 

phgreek

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Except the idea that we can have 0 illegal immigrants is extremely improbable. Could we reduce it some with more money being thrown at it, sure, but the idea that we can "stop firing the gun in the air" when it comes to illegal immigration is laughable. There is a cost/benefit analysis that needs to be done when increasing spending on fighting illegal immigration, and reports like this help us to make more informed decisions.

For the record I am for a small elevation of spending on increased manpower (both at the Southern and Northern border).

Of course there is a CBA, and of course there can't be zero...but if you have an attitude that it should be 0...and more than zero is failure, THAT makes all the difference.

The Obama administration, and to some degree presidents before him do not see lax policies on illegals as shooting a gun in the air. Looking at percentages like those presented by the OP seeks to take that reckless, willful negligence connotation away.

I could buy the "useful data" routine if someone actually intended to step up and use it in enforcement and not some bullshit talking point to justify why it isn't a big issue. It is a big issue.
 
B

Buster Bluth

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The reason we have immigration policy...is????

To ensure those who come here have skills and abilities to live here without having to resort to crime, and to make sure we aren't letting in people who already are criminals.

If we fail there, we have a batting average to critique, modify, design change, and implement. We also have a way of looking at the country and letting in those that we need. In this way immigration is an investment in our future.

I can't think of any time in US history when this was the basis of our immigration policies.
 

phgreek

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I can't think of any time in US history when this was the basis of our immigration policies.

1) family based immigration
2) employment based immigration
3) asylum
4) Diversity
5) humanitarian relief


True the family based process is lax, and anachronistic...but it still has some basic requirements.

many of the others have criminal and or educational requirements...so...the above admit people to the process for citizenship, so I on its face I guess immigration policy has lacked clarity. But in the absence of clarity on the policy front, how things are done kinda speaks to the operative policy. There certainly is basis for saying it matters that you have certain skills, and you aren't a criminal. If those things can stop you, they are part of the purpose of the system.
 

RDU Irish

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I find this thread so entertaining because it is full of assumptions based upon prejudices.

I use prejudice or prejudices, in a much more general, wide ranging scope, as it relates to human behavior, than as a reflection of racism, etc.

Continually, in this thread, and in the outside world of US politics it isn't what is here and now, it is what is common assumption, what is wanted, or a reflection of our values and opinions.

For example, saying anyone doesn't want, "Trump, Cruz, Hillary Clinton, and socialism."

Using the label socialism avoids saying Bernie Sanders. And Bernie Sanders isn't a socialist. He is clearly a progressive, a populist, and a possibilist. Granted, his tendency toward possibilism is where people draw the conclusion he is a socialist, but it is either ignorance, or deceit that motivated that assumption.

But I do agree with one assumption in this thread. Not enough American voters will support any major candidate put forward in the primaries or general election except one.

Yesterday I was an observer in a very enlightening conversation between a Political Science Professor, a Professor of Anthropology, a political consultant (read 'operator.') and a fairly successful politician.
  • They all agreed Clinton was too smarmy, and couldn't or wouldn't put together a coalition to win the primary. They noted her eroding support among women, especially younger women.
  • They described Trump as a caricature of a candidate, that has generated so much controversy, that voters have gone to the polls because of his candidacy as a referendum of the state of politics in this country by the electorate. They pointed to the incredible number of voters in open primaries, and contended that his high vote totals, as well as the high vote totals, particularly of more regional candidates is not indicative of Trump support, and is not directly related to his campaign, or policy. Instead it is about whether such a poorly qualified candidate should even be on a ballot, just because he has money.
  • Therefore Trump might reek havoc in a primary, but any enthusiasm or support would wane in a general election.
  • Cruz has blown his wad, so to speak. Pardon the nasty pun. But they used it yesterday; I almost died when I heard it.
  • No one else in the Republican party can put together what they need to win, but they may be able to block someone else from winning. This is a perfect opportunity for an 11th hour, dark horse candidate to emerge. But whomever would have to exercise great care and caution, the risk of such an attempt could break the party apart. And, it would be very hard for the GOP to attract the independents they need to win a national election without a well scripted and unified party line, on a candidate with universal party appeal.
  • There are no other Democratic candidates worth noting, and Biden doesn't really have a chance to insert himself in the race at this point.
  • That leaves Sanders. And don't kid yourself. His message is resonating with a lot of important groups; minorities; youth; women; blue collar voters; and what formerly was known as the middle class. And Sanders only real political drawback is the controversy over his enthusiastic support of the Israeli State.

Guys, it really looks like a generational shift to the smartest folks I know on the issue, and I have to agree with them. And I am not so sure that is a bad thing.

We will find out how true this hypothesis is, come November, seeing who wins the elections, and how long their coattails are. Regardless of who wins the presidency, who makes gains in the senate, and house? That is the question. Because this election may be much more that the petty squabbles over prejudices, and personality that have dominated conversations like this, and presidential politics for several generations.

Lots of Kool Aid served at that event Bogs? Hillary has the Democratic nomination locked up and anyone thinking Bernie is in contention is either delusional or banking on the FBI cutting her down to size in the next two months. Kasich has a better chance of being the Republican candidate and that is completely predicated on a brokered convention.

Also sounds like your standard political pundits that downplay Trump. At least they won't be alone in being proven wrong. Trump has ginned up some enthusiasm from unconventional sources. Doesn't surprise me that Democrat wonks would think there are more people afraid than angry out there. And those really might be the two emotions that drive this whole thing if it is Hillary vs Trump.
 

Legacy

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Systemic

Systemic

Why don't we have a Parliamentary system?

  • We have candidates representing each different view
  • Few - if any - candidates/parties would have a majority in Congress
  • Then they would have to compromise instead of obstruct
  • The impact of big money donors would be lessened
  • The good of the country as well as issues we faced would be the focus
  • We'd have a better voter turnout and be more representative
  • We could recall a majority party if they could not govern
  • The voters would count more than delegates
  • We'd pay more attention to issues that concerned a minority of the population

Are our problems the result of our electoral and governmental systems? Thoughts?
 

DomeX2 eNVy

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Has Anonymous Dropped Ted Cruz 'DC Madam' Phone Dox?

Lots of smoke on this, but nothing I could find confirmed yet. The DC madam's lawyer has been trying to get a ban on releasing the list he has since January, and the SCOTUS will take this up to decide if to hear it. The lawyer says info could change the presidential election. I have no reason to doubt him, as he has a 72 hour dead man trigger on releasing the data to news agencies. Cruz makes sense as he is a scumbag imo, but as stated rumors of the guilty are still speculation.
 

GoIrish41

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Has Anonymous Dropped Ted Cruz 'DC Madam' Phone Dox?

Lots of smoke on this, but nothing I could find confirmed yet. The DC madam's lawyer has been trying to get a ban on releasing the list he has since January, and the SCOTUS will take this up to decide if to hear it. The lawyer says info could change the presidential election. I have no reason to doubt him, as he has a 72 hour dead man trigger on releasing the data to news agencies. Cruz makes sense as he is a scumbag imo, but as stated rumors of the guilty are still speculation.

If true I hope he ruins Trump's chances at 1237 first before it is confirmed
 

woolybug25

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