2016 Presidential Horse Race

2016 Presidential Horse Race


  • Total voters
    183

phgreek

New member
Messages
6,956
Reaction score
433

Shrug?? I don't presume to speak for anyone...here is what I see

Donald Trump said Wednesday that women who undergo abortions should face "some form of punishment" if the procedure were outlawed.

Logically, he is correct to some degree...otherwise outlawed means what? The basis for outlawing it, I believe, would be preserving a human life. So in some instances, by doing an abortion illegally, the woman and/or the provider would be committing murder if done under a regime where abortions were outlawed. I mean I don't see where you can argue that.

Now, I think in practice you can't really prosecute the woman...you can only really prosecute illegal providers. To me, its like assisted suicide...trying to prosecute someone who tries to kill themselves, and fails...not likely, but be Kavorkian, and you will get prosecuted. About the most anyone can stomach doing in suicides gone wrong is bill people for the emergency services, and call it a day. Probably the same for illegal abortions if someone has to come save the woman....not a perfect analogy, but I think it captures the sentiment of most folks.

Also...there is this...

Later Wednesday afternoon, Trump said in a statement released by campaign spokeswoman Hope Hicks that "this issue is unclear and should be put back into the states for determination. Like Ronald Reagan, I am pro-life with exceptions, which I have outlined numerous times."

so he walked it back...

Gonna go shower now...this is not something I wanted to do...
 

kmoose

Banned
Messages
10,298
Reaction score
1,181
Can you provide any statistics or sources for your opinions?

Health care institutions, doctors offices and pharmacies already have Spanish-speakers for any questions and prescriptions. A state agency just administering a program may not need all those "bloated staff" for interpretation you suggest.

For instance, how are these illegal immigrants counted among poverty statistics if they do not interact with government agencies for programs? Are you saying that poverty levels would be much higher in Texas if these illegals were counted? "Shadow" poverty?

I imagine that at best about one-third of that 1.5 million are women of child-bearing age. If they are counted, at best that would be 500,000 illegal women of child-bearing age out of a total Texas population of 25 million (2%). At 17% of Texas residents living in poverty that would leave 15% who are not illegal women of child-bearing age - and probably less.

That doesn't seem to be "swelling the poverty level in Texas" - if they are not "shadow poverty".

Let me clarify:

[sarcasm] Because of Texas' high level of illegal immigration, and the US's liberal stance on anchor babies......... many illegal alien women in Texas are having babies so that the government will not deport them. Because they refuse to learn the English language, government provided family planning is not feasible as it would require a bloated staff to provide services in a number of Latin languages. Because it is hard to find gainful employment without documentation, these aliens swell the poverty level in Texas. With over 1.5 million illegal aliens estimated to reside in Texas, it makes it hard for uneducated citizens to find those "shadow jobs"; the ones that pay cash, like housecleaning, babysitting/nanny, etc. This drives the number of people living in poverty even HIGHER.

But the fucking Republicans and their platform of "starving the government" are solely responsible....
[/sarcasm]

Clearer?
 

kmoose

Banned
Messages
10,298
Reaction score
1,181
And I would say that is complete BS. I would say that means he clearly cares more about deepening his pockets than helping out American workers. There are PLENTY of businesses that make it in the United States. There are competitors of his that manufacture in the US. And if he didn’t make THAT much of a profit, who cares? He shoudn’t, considering how much he “cares” about this country and American jobs. He brags about his billions (we can’t know because he won’t release his tax info) in the same breath that he brags about hiring illegals in the same breath he boasts about bringing American jobs back lol.

The very fact that he uses those tricks, even to this day, shows exactly how little he truly cares about giving Americans jobs. It’s ridiculous and yet another sign he is completely full of shit.

How is driving yourself out of business because you can't compete with your competitors who are using cheap foreign labor in the best interests of American workers? I'm not saying the guy is a saint, or that he's not above lying. But there ARE reasonable possibilities for his using foreign workers....
 

Whiskeyjack

Mittens Margaritas Ante Porcos
Staff member
Messages
20,894
Reaction score
8,126

That's exactly what one would expect from a pro-abortion candidate trying to pander to pro-life voters.

In case anyone's interested, here's an article from Americans United for Life on "Why the States Did Not Prosecute Women for Abortion Before Roe v. Wade":

The political claim—that women were or will be prosecuted or jailed under abortion laws—has been made so frequently by Planned Parenthood, NARAL, and NOW over the past 40 years that it has become an urban legend. It shows the astonishing power of contemporary media to make a complete falsehood into a truism.

For 30 years, abortion advocates have claimed—without any evidence and contrary to the well-documented practice of ALL 50 states—that women were jailed before Roe and would be jailed if Roe falls (or if state abortion prohibitions are reinstated).

This claim rests on not one but two falsehoods:

First, the almost uniform state policy before Roe was that abortion laws targeted abortionists, not women. Abortion laws targeted those who performed abortion, not women. In fact, the states expressly treated women as the second “victim” of abortion; state courts expressly called the woman a second “victim.” Abortionists were the exclusive target of the law.

Second, the myth that women will be jailed relies, however, on the myth that “overturning” Roe will result in the immediate re-criminalization of abortion. If Roe was overturned today, abortion would be legal in at least 42-43 states tomorrow, and likely all 50 states, for the simple reason that nearly all of the state abortion prohibitions have been either repealed or are blocked by state versions of Roe adopted by state courts. The issue is entirely academic. The legislatures of the states would have to enact new abortion laws—and these would almost certainly continue the uniform state policy before Roe that abortion laws targeted abortionists and treated women as the second victim of abortion. There will be no prosecutions of abortionists unless the states pass new laws after Roe is overturned.

This political claim is not an abstract question that is left to speculation—there is a long record of states treating women as the second victim of abortion in the law that can be found and read. To state the policy in legal terms, the states prosecuted the principal (the abortionist) and did not prosecute someone who might be considered an accomplice (the woman) in order to more effectively enforce the law against the principal. And that will most certainly be the state policy if the abortion issue is returned to the states.

Why did the states target abortionists and treat women as a victim of the abortionist?

It was based on three policy judgments: the point of abortion law is effective enforcement against abortionists, the woman is the second victim of the abortionist, and prosecuting women is counterproductive to the goal of effective enforcement of the law against abortionists.

The irony is that, instead of states prosecuting women, the exact opposite is true. To protect their own hide, it was abortionists (like the cult hero and abortionist Ruth Barnett when Oregon last prosecuted her in 1968), who, when they were prosecuted, sought to haul the women they aborted into court. As a matter of criminal evidentiary law, if the court treated the woman as an accomplice, she could not testify against the abortionist, and the case against the abortionist would be thrown out.

There are “only two cases in which a woman was charged in any State with participating in her own abortion”: from Pennsylvania in 19111 and from Texas in 1922.2 There is no documented case since 1922 in which a woman has been charged in an abortion in the United States.

Based on this record—spanning 50 states over the century before Roe v. Wade—it is even more certain that the political claim that any woman might be questioned or prosecuted for a spontaneous miscarriage has no record in history and will certainly not be the policy of any state in the future.

How was abortion law enforced?

Going back as far as English and colonial law, the criminal law classified those involved in crimes as principals and accomplices. A principal is “the person whose acts directly brought about the criminal result.” An accomplice aids or abets the crime.

States did not treat women who had the abortion as either principals or accomplices. As the Oregon Supreme Court held as late as 1968, the abortionist commits the act, and the woman aborted is the object of that act. “A reading of the statute indicates that the acts prohibited are those which are performed upon the mother rather than any action taken by her. She is the object of the acts prohibited rather than the actor.”3

As one legal scholar in the 1980s who studied this issue concluded after surveying the 50 states, women “were never charged with murder, only seldom were named co-conspirators, and still more rarely were regarded as accomplices.”4

While some women were prosecuted for their abortions under the English common law, by the 1870s or 1880s, most American states came to recognize that the better policy was to not prosecute women. That was the position of New York by 1885.5

With the exception of [four] state cases, the vast majority of the states with reported cases that discussed this issue determined that states could not prosecute women under any theory of criminal liability.

States relied on various techniques of statutory interpretation, along with the generally held belief that women were victims of their abortions, to support their decisions to refrain from prosecuting women. As the appeals court in the District of Columbia wrote in 1901, “y its terms, [D.C. Code Ann. § 809 (1901)] applies to the person or persons committing the act which produces the miscarriage, and not to the person upon whom it is committed, notwithstanding it may be done with her knowledge and consent. Not being liable to indictment thereunder, she is not an accomplice in the legal sense.”6

Based on the fact that abortion was dangerous and often fatal up to the 19th century, women were seen as victims.

In addition, another main reason for the non-prosecution of women is that relieving women from criminal liability provided states with a better chance of achieving convictions against abortionists—the principal.

While the reported cases in a minority of the states arrived at an opposite conclusion—as a matter of technical legal principle—even these states never took advantage of the opportunity they allotted to themselves to actually prosecute women.

This was expressly affirmed by the Maryland Supreme Court and by the Minnesota Supreme Court in almost identical terms.

Maryland: “While it may seem illogical to hold that a pregnant woman who solicits the commission of an abortion and willingly submits to its commission upon her own person is not an accomplice in the commission of the crime, yet many courts in the United States have adopted this rule, asserting that public policy demands its application and that its exception from the general rule is justified by the wisdom of experience.”7

Minnesota: “As a first impression, it may seem to be an unsound rule that one who solicits the commission of an offense, and willingly submits to its being committed upon her own person, should not be deemed an accomplice, while those whom she has thus solicited should be deemed principal criminals in the transaction. But in cases of this kind the public welfare demands the application of this rule, and its exception from the general rule seems to be justified by the wisdom of experience.”8

The target of abortion law was the abortionist—the principal in the crime.


The courts expressly affirmed that the statutes targeted the abortionist with their language. The Arkansas Supreme Court write in 1970: “Our own statute, … is directed toward the person who administers or prescribes medicine or drugs to any woman with child, with intent to produce an abortion, or to produce or attempt to produce an abortion by any other means.”9

The Oregon Supreme Court expressed the same conclusion in 1968: “A reading of the statute indicates that the acts prohibited are those which are performed upon the mother rather than any action taken by her. She is the object of the acts prohibited rather than the actor. The class of persons against whom the statute is directed does not include those upon whom abortions are performed. Most similar state statutes are so construed.”10

Are there any known cases of a woman being indicted or tried for having an abortion in the U.S.?

No. Not since 1922. There are “only two cases in which a woman was charged in any State with participating in her own abortion: from Pennsylvania in 191111 and from Texas in 1922.12

There is no documented case since 1922 in which a woman was even charged in an abortion in the United States.

Were women ever prosecuted for SELF-abortion?

Never in the United States. The last was in 1599—the end of the 16th century. As Villanova Law Professor Joseph Dellapenna, author of the encyclopedic book, Dispelling the Myths of Abortion History, has demonstrated, “in the entire history of Anglo-American law, it appears that the only woman to have been charged with a crime for self-abortion was Margaret Webb—in 1599.”

Iowa, as early as 1863, held that a woman could not be indicted for a self-abortion.13

Dellapenna also demonstrates that “while several states (including California, Connecticut, Indiana, New Hampshire, and New York) made self-abortion a crime, they did not prosecute any women—they enacted an exception to the accomplice evidence rule or granted women immunity from prosecution in order to obtain her testimony against the abortionist.”

As the Michigan Supreme Court held in 1963, “The majority view is that not only may she not be held for abortion upon herself but neither as an accomplice.”14

Those states with statutes on the books that prohibited women from aborting [self-abortion] did not prosecute.

As researcher Paul Linton has pointed out, “[a]lthough more than one-third of the States [including Arizona, California, Connecticut, Delaware, Indiana, Minnesota, Montana, Nevada, North Dakota, Oklahoma, South Carolina, South Dakota, Utah, Washington, and Wyoming] had statutes prohibiting a woman from aborting her own pregnancy [self-abortion] or submitting to an abortion performed on her by another, no prosecutions were reported under any of those statutes.”15

In the 1911 case in Pennsylvania, the trial court threw out the charge and the Pennsylvania Superior Court concurred, stating that “in the absence of clear statutory authority, ‘the woman who commits an abortion on herself is regarded rather as the victim than the perpetrator of the crime.’”

Based on this review of the 50 states, Linton concluded, “no American court has ever upheld the conviction of a woman for self-abortion or consenting to an abortion and, with the exception of [the Pennsylvania case from 1911 and Texas case from 1922], there is no record of a woman even being charged with either offence as a principal or as an accessory.”16

Which States treated women as victims?

At least: California, the District of Columbia, Iowa, Maryland, Oklahoma, South Dakota, Tennessee, and Texas.

As long ago as 1880, a Texas court affirmed that the woman was a victim, not rhetorically but in the law: “The rule that she does not stand legally in the situation of an accomplice, but should rather be regarded as the victim than the perpetrator of the crime, is one which commends itself to our sense of justice and right, and there is certainly nothing in our law of accomplices which should be held to contravene it.”17

Many other state courts said the same thing:

California: “The abortee is considered the victim of the crime.”18

Delaware: Zutz v. State, 52 Del. 492, 160 A.2d 727 (1960).

District of Columbia (DC): “She is regarded as his victim, rather than an accomplice.”19

Idaho: State v. Rose, 75 Idaho 59, 267 P.2d 109 (1954).

Kentucky: Richmond v. Commonwealth, 370 S.W.2d 399 (KY 1963).

Maryland: “In Maryland a woman upon whom an abortion has been performed is regarded by the law as a victim of the crime, rather than a participant in it.”20

Minnesota: “in cases of this kind the public welfare demands the application of this rule, and its exception from the general rule seems to be justified by the wisdom of experience…She was the victim of a cruel act.”21

South Dakota (1924): “She does not, by consenting to the unlawful operation, become an accomplice in the crime. She should be regarded as the victim of the crime, rather than a participant in it.”22

Which states did NOT treat women as an accomplice?

At least 30: Arkansas, California, Connecticut, Delaware, District of Columbia, Georgia, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kentucky, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Nebraska, New Jersey, New York, North Carolina, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Oregon, Pennsylvania, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Vermont, and Virginia.

As long ago as 1915, one Texas court held, “It has been so many times decided by this court that the woman upon whom an abortion is committed is not an accomplice that we regard the question as settled.”23

As late as 1960, the Delaware Supreme Court wrote: “It is generally held in most states that a woman in an abortion case is not an accomplice. [citing Commonwealth v. Fisher, 189 Pa. Super. 13, 149 A. 2d 666 (1959); State v. Montifoire, 95 Vt. 508, 116 A. 77 (1921); State v. Hyer, 39 N. J. L. 598 (1877)] The reasoning of the courts seems to be that the woman is generally regarded as the victim of the crime rather than a participant in it.” [citing Wilson v. State, 36 Okla. Cr. 148, 252 P. 1106 (1927); Smart v. State, 112 Tenn. 539, 80 S. W. 586 (1904)]).24

Basoff v. State, 208 Md. 643, 653-654, 119 A. 2d 917, 923 (1956) (“it is also held in this State that a pregnant woman upon whom an abortion is produced is not an accomplice of the person who administers the substance or performs the operation to produce the abortion…In Maryland, a woman upon whom an abortion has been performed is regarded by the law as a victim of the crime, rather than as a participant in it.”25

See Thompson v. United States, 30 App. D.C. 352, 362-363 (1908) at 364 (“As the victim of an unlawfully procured miscarriage was not an accessory before the fact, she is not indictable as a principal offender…”).

Which states did treat a woman as an accomplice?

There were 20 states in which statutes technically made it a crime for the woman to participate in her own abortion: Arizona, California, Connecticut, Delaware, Idaho, Indiana, Minnesota, Montana, Nevada, New Hampshire, New York, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, South Carolina, South Dakota, Utah, Washington, Wisconsin, and Wyoming. However, these were not enforced or applied against women. There is no record of any prosecution of a woman as an accomplice even in these states.

Alabama: In 1916, an appeals court held that, as an evidentiary matter, the woman was considered an accomplice, but the woman’s guilt was not actually at issue in the case.26

Some states did treat the woman as a conspirator.

Technically, courts in a handful of states treated the woman as a possible conspirator: Colorado, Iowa, New York, North Dakota,27 and Wisconsin.

Even in these states, however, the issue in the recorded cases was not the woman’s guilt—no woman was charged or was a co-defendant in the cases—but the admissibility of evidence against the abortionist. No woman was prosecuted.

Other states rejected treating the woman as a conspirator: California, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania.

But statutes in these states have been repealed, and the legislatures would have to enact wholly new legislation to address abortion.

Some states had statutes prohibiting solicitation of abortion—under the general rule that solicitation of any crime is a crime—but these were evenhandedly applied to men and women.

At least Arizona, California, Connecticut, Idaho, South Dakota, and Utah.

For example, South Dakota had an anti-solicitation law for abortion. S.D. Compiled Laws Ann. 22-17-2 (1967).

However, there’s no record of any woman being prosecuted under this law, let alone convicted.

Even pro-abortion historians admit this record.

The pro-abortion historian Leslie Reagan, in her 1997 book When Abortion Was A Crime, admits that states did not prosecute women for their abortions and that women did not face criminal liability as principals, accomplices, conspirators, solicitors, or murderers, and concedes that the purpose behind that law was not to degrade women but to protect them.

Conclusion

The wisdom of not prosecuting women was based on extensive practical law enforcement experience in many states, over many years.

It will certainly be influential with prosecutors and state policy makers when Roe is overturned, and that should be the policy of legislators who are interested in the effective enforcement of abortion law.

Based on the 50-state record of enforcing abortion law for more than a century before Roe, Linton concluded that “if Roe is overruled, no woman would be prosecuted for self-abortion or consenting to an abortion, even in those few States where abortion prohibitions would be enforceable.”

Prolife legislators and pro-life leaders do not support the prosecution of women and will not push for such a policy when Roe is overturned. This is demonstrated by abortion regulations enacted in the past 20 years—like the federal partial birth abortion ban—in which women are expressly excluded from any possible prosecution. Instead, pro-life legislators are advocating laws that defend the unborn and protect women from the negative impact of abortion.


And here's the NYT's Ross Douthat addressing the same issue:

8. Murder. If zygotes are people, abortion is infanticide, a very serious crime. Kevin Williamson, a correspondent for National Review, has said that women who have abortions should be hanged. That’s going pretty far. After all, if every woman who had an abortion were executed, who would raise the children? But if abortion becomes a crime, what do you think the punishment should be? I’m assuming you approve of jailing the provider, but what about the parent who makes the appointment, the man who pays, the friend who lends her car? Aren’t they accomplices? And what about the woman herself? No fair exempting her as a victim of coercion or manipulation or the culture of death. We take personal responsibility very seriously in this country. Patty Hearst went to prison despite being kidnapped, raped, locked in a closet and brainwashed into thinking her captors were her only friends. Our prisons are full of people whose obvious mental illness failed to move prosecutors or juries. Why should women who hire a fetal hit man get a pass?

This is the hardest and most reasonable question, and the place where I least expect my answer to convince. But here I think the pro-choice side of the argument, the argument for not making abortion illegal at all, rests on a belief that many pro-lifers actually share: That while abortion is killing, while it is murder, it is also associated with a situation, pregnancy, that’s unlike any other in human affairs, and as such requires a distinctive legal response. No other potential murderer has his victim inside his body, no other potential murder victim is not in some sense fully physically visible and present to his assailant and the world, no other human person presents herself (initially, in the first trimester) to her potential killer in what amounts to a pre-conscious state. And again: no other human experience is like pregnancy, period, whether or it comes expectedly or not.

These are not, in my view, strong arguments for the pro-choice view that we should license the killing of millions of unborn human beings. But I think they are strong arguments for maintaining the distinctive approach to enforcement that largely prevailed prior to Roe v. Wade, in which the law targeted abortionists and almost never prosecuted women. And I don’t think pro-lifers should be afraid to say that a pregnant woman’s decision to take a first-trimester life is simply a different kind of murder than the murder of a five-year-old, and one where the law should err on the side of mercy toward the woman herself in a way that it shouldn’t in other cases, and reserve the force of prosecution for the abortionist, the man or woman who isn’t experiencing the pregnancy, instead.

This approach is, yes, exceptional in terms of how the state treats homicide. But its “exception from the general rule seems to be justified by the wisdom of experience,” as a pre-Roe court ruling put it. And while — again — pregnancy is unique, it is not the only situation where older legal forms approached killing in distinctive ways. Suicide, for instance, was historically treated as a form of murder in many jurisdictions, but attempted suicides were hardly ever prosecuted for the attempted murder that they had committed, whereas people who assisted in suicide were more likely to be charged. And a version of that distinction survives today: Suicide itself has now been largely decriminalized but assisting a suicide is still illegal, though of course a subject of much culture-war controversy, in most U.S. states.

Could one argue that this combination is illogical — that if we don’t throw attempted suicides in jail we shouldn’t make it illegal to help them make their quietus? Certainly; this is an increasingly popular position. But I think the older position, which recognizes the reality that suicide is murder but also treats it distinctively and assigns legal culpability in a particular-to-that-distinction way, is actually the one more consonant with justice overall. And in a different-but-related way, the same is true for abortion: A just society needs to both recognize abortion as murder and grapple with its distinctives, and that’s what an effective pro-life legal regime would need to do.
 
Last edited:

zelezo vlk

Well-known member
Messages
18,012
Reaction score
5,055
And again I'm unable to rep Whiskey for speaking wisdom. Y'all need to step up so I can spread the wealth.
 

NDinL.A.

New member
Messages
8,121
Reaction score
1,734
How is driving yourself out of business because you can't compete with your competitors who are using cheap foreign labor in the best interests of American workers? I'm not saying the guy is a saint, or that he's not above lying. But there ARE reasonable possibilities for his using foreign workers....

Right, and those reasonable possibilities are he wants to line his supposedly already deep pockets at the expense of American workers. I'm not begrudging him that - just don't try and tell me you've cared about American workers when it's been proven time and time again that you don't. I mean, what other candidate was fined for hiring illegal Polish immigrants over American workers?

And you are acting like it's impossible to turn a profit with an American-based company. That's nonsense, and typical Trump speak. He's such a genius that rookies on Shark Tank can turn major profits but he can't? Please. He just wants to make even more money. Again, that's fine, but don't try and sell me a bunch of horse shit that you care about American workers.

And that is just one of many issues this fraud has.
 

kmoose

Banned
Messages
10,298
Reaction score
1,181
And you are acting like it's impossible to turn a profit with an American-based company. That's nonsense, and typical Trump speak. He's such a genius that rookies on Shark Tank can turn major profits but he can't? Please. He just wants to make even more money. Again, that's fine, but don't try and sell me a bunch of horse shit that you care about American workers.

And that is just one of many issues this fraud has.

You try to open up a t-shirt manufacturing shop in the US, or operate a farm, using only US workers: You'll be broke inside of a year. Certain industries, including Trump's hospitality industry businesses, just cannot compete, using only American workers, unless their competitors are using the same American labor.
 
Last edited:

GoIrish41

Paterfamilius
Messages
9,929
Reaction score
2,120
Right, and those reasonable possibilities are he wants to line his supposedly already deep pockets at the expense of American workers. I'm not begrudging him that - just don't try and tell me you've cared about American workers when it's been proven time and time again that you don't. I mean, what other candidate was fined for hiring illegal Polish immigrants over American workers?

And you are acting like it's impossible to turn a profit with an American-based company. That's nonsense, and typical Trump speak. He's such a genius that rookies on Shark Tank can turn major profits but he can't? Please. He just wants to make even more money. Again, that's fine, but don't try and sell me a bunch of horse shit that you care about American workers.

And that is just one of many issues this fraud has.

And he brags about selling apartments for $10 million a pop to Chinese investors. He's all about making money and couldn't care less about American workers.
 

GATTACA!

It's about to get gross
Messages
15,108
Reaction score
12,945
I'm confused, so if the procedure is made illegal...and a woman goes and kills her unborn child...she shouldn't be punished? The Donald says some wild stuff but I really don't see a problem with that statement whatsoever.

Can't really have something be a crime without a form of punishment associated with it.

Tell that to our "illegal" aliens
 

NorthDakota

Grandson of Loomis
Messages
15,705
Reaction score
6,006
And he brags about selling apartments for $10 million a pop to Chinese investors. He's all about making money and couldn't care less about American workers.

Is something wrong with selling an apartment to a Chinaman? How is that anti-American worker?
 

GoIrish41

Paterfamilius
Messages
9,929
Reaction score
2,120
Is something wrong with selling an apartment to a Chinaman? How is that anti-American worker?

Doesn't really matter who he sells it to. What matters is that he's making $10 millions timeshowever many apartments are in the building times the number of buildings he owns. And he's bringing in illegal foreign workers to maximize his profits, at the expense of American jobs.
 
Last edited:

Legacy

New member
Messages
7,871
Reaction score
321
I'm confused, so if the procedure is made illegal...and a woman goes and kills her unborn child...she shouldn't be punished? The Donald says some wild stuff but I really don't see a problem with that statement whatsoever.

Can't really have something be a crime without a form of punishment associated with it.

What's disingenuous is that Cruz advocated a Constitutional Amendment as well as the proposed state laws in Georgia, Mississippi, Colorado, South Carolina, etc. that would define a fertilized egg as a person - the "personhood" Amendment or the "Life at Conception Act". Some of those proposed state laws in those states would charge not only the health care provider but also the woman.

How can he criticize Trump for his comment?

What has also changed since before Roe v Wade is the "morning after pill" are the oral abortion pills - either Misoprostol or Mifepristone. The extreme stance is that the health care provider who prescribed it, the pharmacist who filled the prescription and the woman who took it would be prosecuted.

Cruz's stance has changed just as Trump's has.

Now:
“I believe we should protect every human life from the moment of conception to the moment of death. I have not supported personhood legislation because I think — and the pro-life community is divided on this — but I think personhood legislation can be counterproductive because it focuses on issues that are unrelated to protecting unborn children, and I think our focus should be valuing and cherishing every human life.”

Cruz is pro-life but just thinks the legislation is "counterproductive".

Today after Trump's remark:
"Of course we shouldn’t be talking about punishing women; we should affirm their dignity and the incredible gift they have to bring life into the world." and “Once again Donald Trump has demonstrated that he hasn’t seriously thought through the issues, and he’ll say anything just to get attention.

Has Cruz not thought through his positions, too? Or is he just as facile to political winds?

BTW, Trump just reversed his position:
"The doctor or any other person performing this illegal act upon a woman would be held legally responsible, not the woman. The woman is a victim in this case as is the life in her womb."
and
"my position has not changed."
 
Last edited:

NDinL.A.

New member
Messages
8,121
Reaction score
1,734
You try to open up a t-shirt manufacturing shop in the US, or operate a farm, using only US workers: You'll be broke inside of a year. Certain industries, including Trump's hospitality industry businesses, just cannot compete, using only American workers, unless their competitors are using the same American labor.

He took his business to China. He did not give a shit about American workers. I don't know how novices on Shark Tank can start clothing companies and have them thrive with American workers, but Trump can't. They are not broke, but you're claiming Trump would be?

Sorry, doesn't jive. He is a business man, I completely agree. One that is looking out for only for himself, and I don't buy for one second that anything will change. And like I said, this is just ONE minor thing I have against him. There are MANY more issues besides this. The man is quite simply a lying buffoon IMO.
 

BGIF

Varsity Club
Messages
43,946
Reaction score
2,922
GOP WS Marquette Poll has Cruz by +10

GOP WS Marquette Poll has Cruz by +10

Wednesday, March 30
Race/Topic Poll Results Spread
Wisconsin Republican Presidential Primary Marquette Cruz 40, Trump 30, Kasich 21 Cruz +10


Tuesday, March 29
Race/Topic Poll Results Spread
Wisconsin Republican Presidential Primary 0ptimus (R)* Cruz 27, Trump 31, Kasich 29 Trump +2


Friday, March 25
Race/Topic Poll Results Spread
Wisconsin Republican Presidential Primary Free Beacon (R) Cruz 36, Trump 31, Kasich 21 Cruz +5


Wednesday, March 23
Race/Topic Poll Results Spread
Wisconsin Republican Presidential Primary Emerson Cruz 36, Trump 35, Kasich 19 Cruz +1
 

kmoose

Banned
Messages
10,298
Reaction score
1,181
I don't know how novices on Shark Tank can start clothing companies and have them thrive with American workers, but Trump can't.

The largest apparel manufacturing success story from Shark Tank? Tipsy Elves. From the Tipsy Elves website:

Where are Tipsy Elves products made?



All of our products are made internationally. Most of them are produced in China with a few product styles coming from Mexico and Peru. Shirts are sourced internationally before being printed in Los Angeles, CA.

The second largest is Grace and Lace. From the Grace and Lace website FAQs:

INTERNATIONAL CUSTOMS CHARGES/TAXES: To remain ethical in our business practices, we cannot mark international shipments as "gifts". Therefore, you will be charged customs taxes on the items you purchase from us. Thank you for your understanding with this.

The third largest is Bombas Socks. From a 2013 article on the company:

Creating a socially responsible company was very important to Heath and Goldberg, and they initially intended to keep production in the United States. Current EPA regulations against yarn-dying have shut down many factories across the country and make U.S. production cost-prohibitive for Bombas for now, though they say they hope to be able to bring production to the U.S. as the company grows. Bombas socks needed to find a balance between quality and competitive pricing if they wanted to be financially sustainable with their one to one plan. Heath and Goldberg searched the world for factories with no unfair labor practices and settled on a factory in China.

So how about you list some of the Shark Tank apparel companies thriving with American workers?
 

NDinL.A.

New member
Messages
8,121
Reaction score
1,734
So how about you list some of the Shark Tank apparel companies thriving with American workers?

So the TOP Shark Tank companies have gone overseas. Well done.

But again, you are completely missing the point. He COULD have done it, but he refuses, because he will make less money. And that is fine. But don't tell me you care so much about American jobs, when you have repeatedly shown that you don't. It's all about Donald with Donald.

Let me ask you this: How can these 16 companies thrive in the US, but Donald can't? Don't worry, I'll save your breath: Donald cares only about Donald, that's why.

16 Fashion Brands That Are Made In America And Totally Amazing

Give me a president that wants to keep jobs in the US because he cares about this country, not because he is an egomaniac looking to stroke his ego by saying what he knows will get people riled up.
 

NDinL.A.

New member
Messages
8,121
Reaction score
1,734
And don’t even get me started on his complete lack of knowledge on most foreign (and apparently American) policies. It’s an absolute joke and an embarrassment. One day he’s neutral on Israel, the next he’s pro-Israel. One day he is all for work visas, the next day he is against it. One day he’s pro-choice, the next day he is suddenly pro-life, the next hour he is for punishing women for having abortions, the next hour he is against it LOL. Pathetic.

He’s a POS, and it is all coming out now. There aren’t enough hours in the day to point out what a lying, sexist, racist POS he is. Fortunately, the rest of the country (outside of his mindless sheep who worship his every move) sees it and that’s why he is getting destroyed in the general polls to the easiest-to-beat candidate in history.
 

Legacy

New member
Messages
7,871
Reaction score
321
Recently, I've been thinking a lot on what the Republican Party Platform that an assumed "Donald Trump for President" ticket would run on.

Beyond the StopTrump, this could be the next battleground for the Republican establishment. How widely divergent are they? On which issues would he fight them on? Would he even care about the platform?
 

kmoose

Banned
Messages
10,298
Reaction score
1,181
So the TOP Shark Tank companies have gone overseas. Well done.

But again, you are completely missing the point. He COULD have done it, but he refuses, because he will make less money. And that is fine. But don't tell me you care so much about American jobs, when you have repeatedly shown that you don't. It's all about Donald with Donald.

Let me ask you this: How can these 16 companies thrive in the US, but Donald can't? Don't worry, I'll save your breath: Donald cares only about Donald, that's why.

16 Fashion Brands That Are Made In America And Totally Amazing

Give me a president that wants to keep jobs in the US because he cares about this country, not because he is an egomaniac looking to stroke his ego by saying what he knows will get people riled up.

President of the United States is not the same as CEO of T-Shirt, Inc. I don't even know if Trump owns any apparel companies. I just used apparel companies as one example of the kind of industry that it is almost impossible to compete in, as a strictly "Made in the USA" company. There are others; if you have an electronic device that transmits or receives(cell phones, modems, network components, etc.) it is almost guaranteed that that device (or at least some of the major components of it) are made in China.

No one should vote for Trump because they think he has a long history of working on behalf of American workers. But, as a CEO, his obligation was to the bottom line of the company. So he acted accordingly. As President, his obligation would be to American workers, and I suspect that he would act accordingly. I'm still not voting for him, but I think it's misleading to try to say that since he made good business decisions, he would shaft the US economy as President.
 

GoIrish41

Paterfamilius
Messages
9,929
Reaction score
2,120
Recently, I've been thinking a lot on what the Republican Party Platform that an assumed "Donald Trump for President" ticket would run on.

Beyond the StopTrump, this could be the next battleground for the Republican establishment. How widely divergent are they? On which issues would he fight them on? Would he care about the platform?

Hillary did a town hall last night on NBC, and she tried to make the point that the three remaining candidates have essentially the same ideas -- lower taxes, smaller government (read slashing entitlement programs), building up the military, etc., etc. She claims the differences lie in their approach and personalities, but their policy positions are very similar. I don't know if I completely buy that line of thinking, but it appears that's how she wants to frame it.

I personally think Trump is winging it every time he has a mic in front of him, but whatevs.
 

gkIrish

Greek God
Messages
13,184
Reaction score
1,004
President of the United States is not the same as CEO of T-Shirt, Inc. I don't even know if Trump owns any apparel companies. I just used apparel companies as one example of the kind of industry that it is almost impossible to compete in, as a strictly "Made in the USA" company. There are others; if you have an electronic device that transmits or receives(cell phones, modems, network components, etc.) it is almost guaranteed that that device (or at least some of the major components of it) are made in China.

No one should vote for Trump because they think he has a long history of working on behalf of American workers. But, as a CEO, his obligation was to the bottom line of the company. So he acted accordingly. As President, his obligation would be to American workers, and I suspect that he would act accordingly. I'm still not voting for him, but I think it's misleading to try to say that since he made good business decisions, he would shaft the US economy as President.

I think the point is that he is running, in part, on the platform that he cares about American workers. Problem is, there is no evidence to support that when you look at his companies. He can say he supports American workers all he wants, but there is no proof to support that idea.

So what makes you think he will be different just because he is President? I can't vote for someone on a guess.
 

EddytoNow

Vbuck Redistributor
Messages
1,481
Reaction score
235
And don’t even get me started on his complete lack of knowledge on most foreign (and apparently American) policies. It’s an absolute joke and an embarrassment. One day he’s neutral on Israel, the next he’s pro-Israel. One day he is all for work visas, the next day he is against it. One day he’s pro-choice, the next day he is suddenly pro-life, the next hour he is for punishing women for having abortions, the next hour he is against it LOL. Pathetic.

He’s a POS, and it is all coming out now. There aren’t enough hours in the day to point out what a lying, sexist, racist POS he is. Fortunately, the rest of the country (outside of his mindless sheep who worship his every move) sees it and that’s why he is getting destroyed in the general polls to the easiest-to-beat candidate in history.

Unfortunately for the self-indulgent candidate Trump, his money cannot buy him the election. He is used to flashing a few dollars in front of politicians and others ruled by the almighty dollar. The much-maligned electorate (as a whole) sees through his BS and doesn't like what they see underneath the smoke-screen. He is attractive to a few who want to tell the politicians to **** off, but most of the voters see him for what he is, and that is what scares the Republicans so much about having him as their candidate. His support is frozen at about 30-35% of hard-core Republicans or about 10-15% of the total electorate. His candidacy will cost votes for Republicans in state and local elections.

Hillary isn't much better. But given a choice between Hillary and Trump, voters will either stay home or hold their nose and vote for Hillary. A president needs to think things through completely before rashly speaking or making a decision. He must fully understand the ramifications of his words or his actions before opening his mouth. That person isn't Donald Trump.
 

kmoose

Banned
Messages
10,298
Reaction score
1,181
So what makes you think he will be different just because he is President? I can't vote for someone on a guess.

I think he MIGHT be different. Because, like it or not, the guy is a leader. He's not Teflon; he's just an effective leader, and people follow him because they naturally gravitate to leaders..... even the fallible ones.

Leaders know what their obligations are, and they (usually) follow them. It's a different set of obligations, from being CEO of a company to being President of the United States. Trump has shown an ability to successfully handle his obligations as a CEO. I don't think it is a big stretch to say that he would probably handle his obligations as President, as they relate to the economy. I question whether or not he could handle the diplomatic obligations of the office, so I have no intention of voting for him.
 

BGIF

Varsity Club
Messages
43,946
Reaction score
2,922
So the TOP Shark Tank companies have gone overseas. Well done.

But again, you are completely missing the point. He COULD have done it, but he refuses, because he will make less money. And that is fine. But don't tell me you care so much about American jobs, when you have repeatedly shown that you don't. It's all about Donald with Donald.

Let me ask you this: How can these 16 companies thrive in the US, but Donald can't? Don't worry, I'll save your breath: Donald cares only about Donald, that's why.

16 Fashion Brands That Are Made In America And Totally Amazing

Give me a president that wants to keep jobs in the US because he cares about this country, not because he is an egomaniac looking to stroke his ego by saying what he knows will get people riled up.


Did you check the prices from those companies? $69.00 for a plain white "designer" tee shirt? These are the kind of brands the 0ne Percenters and wannabe One Percenters know. The money must be good in South Bend.

You really think companies like these make even a dent in employing the U.S.A. Unemployed?

You overreached with the Shark Tank "fact" and you're doing it again with "16 Fashion Brands"




Employment in Apparel Manufacturing
Employment in the apparel manufacturing industry has declined by more than 80 percent (from about 900,000 to 150,000 jobs) over the past two decades. The decline has been proportional throughout the apparel manufacturing component industries.

Fashion : Spotlight on Statistics: U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics
 
Last edited:

NDinL.A.

New member
Messages
8,121
Reaction score
1,734
Did you check the prices from those companies? $69.00 for a plain white "designer" tee shirt? These are the kind of brands the 0ne Percenters and wannabe One Percenters know. The money must be good in South Bend.

You really think companies like these make even a dent in employing the U.S.A. Unemployed?

You overreached with the Shark Tank "fact" and you're doing it again with "16 Fashion Brands

Employment in Apparel Manufacturing

Fashion : Spotlight on Statistics: U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics

The Shark Tank thing was said in jest and for effect and I fully admit I don’t follow them after the show to see if they take their companies elsewhere. On their updates, they never say that they take their companies overseas. The 2nd article, nope, didn’t look closely at every company, but I do know they could turn a profit (one of them for 102 years) in the USA, so I’m sure the most brilliant businessman of all time could turn a profit as well, IF he cared about American workers as much as he claims. But he doesn’t – he wants to make more and more money, even though he already has billions, American workers be damned.

But I am fully aware how hard it is to survive in the clothing industry in the USA. It is something that needs to be remedied, but it is NOT an easy fix, like the Donald makes it out to be.

But hey, let’s talk about his other businesses, non-clothing, in which he uses foreigners instead of Americans. He likes to pretend Americans won’t do the work, but when given the chance, he didn’t hire them despite there being applications from Americans. And let’s not ignore the time he was fined (what, a million dollars?) for using illegal Polish immigrants. Yeah, he absolutely cares about American workers!
 
Top