ND Men's Basketball 2015-2016 season

[FightingIrishLover7]

I don't get what that is supposed to prove.

The fact that ND went 11 years without a tournament appearance, during 1990 to 2001. That's how bad the program was when Brey joined in 2000.

 

[Irish Insanity]

So we're gonna now accept mediocrity from the basketball team too. All because it was bad before the current coach. I think I've heard these excuses before....

 

[ACamp1900]

The fact that ND went 11 years without a tournament appearance, during 1990 to 2001. That's how bad the program was when Brey joined in 2000.

I had to look because I would have bet Monty Williams and that team that beat UCLA made a tourney... but nope... crazy also to look back and see Doherty only coached one year in South Bend...

 

[Buster Bluth]

The fact that ND went 11 years without a tournament appearance, during 1990 to 2001. That's how bad the program was when Brey joined in 2000.

That's great and all but unlike with football, where ND has a fantastic coach, Notre Dame could do much better in basketball. I like Mike Brey, but Notre Dame could do better, and that's something you can't say with confidence about Brian Kelly. There is also much more the administration can do, I'm not denying that, but I will forever scratch my head when teams like Xavier, Villanova, etc are consistently better than Notre Dame. It just doesn't make any sense.

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

So we're gonna now accept mediocrity from the basketball team too. All because it was bad before the current coach. I think I've heard these excuses before....

I never said we should accept mediocrity. I was simply pointing out how bad things were, pre Brey. He doesn't get the recognition he deserves from building the program from garbage.

Now, in order to take the next step, he needs support from the school and fan base. Games should be sold out (or mostly sold out) and a freak basketball facility is long overdue.

Also, Brey has done extremely well as of late in the Big East and ACC. I would hardly call NDs success, "mediocre".

Is it, "elite"? No. But, it's definitely well above mediocre.

 

[Shamrock Theories]

I never said we should accept mediocrity. I was simply pointing out how bad things were, pre Brey. He doesn't get the recognition he deserves from building the program from garbage.

Now, in order to take the next step, he needs support from the school and fan base. Games should be sold out (or mostly sold out) and a freak basketball facility is long overdue.

Also, Brey has done extremely well as of late in the Big East and ACC. I would hardly call NDs success, "mediocre".

Is it, "elite"? No. But, it's definitely well above mediocre.

Well ND got the best possible draw IMO.

Got a 6 seed and faces the winner of Michigan/Tulsa (lmfao) while dodging Wichita State

Guess we will see.

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

That's great and all but unlike with football, where ND has a fantastic coach, Notre Dame could do much better in basketball. I like Mike Brey, but Notre Dame could do better, and that's something you can't say with confidence about Brian Kelly. There is also much more the administration can do, I'm not denying that, but I will forever scratch my head when teams like Xavier, Villanova, etc are consistently better than Notre Dame. It just doesn't make any sense.

Who would step in and replace Brey, and make it a guarantee, that they'll be better?

Sure, a Brad Stevens could elevate the program, but in order to recruit the best of the best, we need the facilitates.

Kelly has
1) tradition
2) facilities
3) enormous fan support

Brey has way, way lower support than Kelly does.

I think Brey could do the job. He needs more consistent recruits, he's gotten some of the right type of players lately (Grant, Jackson, Atkins, Hansbrough (transfer) etc). And he's done an even better job of polishing up lesser recruits (Auguste, Vasturia, Connaughton, etc).

I think if Brey got a state of the art facility, plus riding his recent success (a couple points from a final four...acc title), we'd be right up there with the big dogs.

So, I don't think a new coach is as critical as a new investment in the program overall.

Besides, good luck trying to bring in a big name coach with our lack of facilities and fan support. Coaches see those recruiting burdens, big time. Notre Dame's men basketball coaching seat isn't as "desirable" as Kelly's.

I don't think too many coaches would call ND their, "dream job".

 

[NorthDakota]

Well ND got the best possible draw IMO.

Got a 6 seed and faces the winner of Michigan/Tulsa (lmfao) while dodging Wichita State

Guess we will see.

Not to mention I don't think West Virginia or Xavier are anything to write home about. I'd still be surprised to see them get past the Sweet 16 but this area of the bracket isn't overly intimidating to me.

 

[NDgradstudent]

That's great and all but unlike with football, where ND has a fantastic coach, Notre Dame could do much better in basketball. I like Mike Brey, but Notre Dame could do better, and that's something you can't say with confidence about Brian Kelly. There is also much more the administration can do, I'm not denying that, but I will forever scratch my head when teams like Xavier, Villanova, etc are consistently better than Notre Dame. It just doesn't make any sense.

I agree that ND could be much better in basketball. No reason the program shouldn't be a Final Four-type team every year. Like some of the other posters, though, I don't think Brey is really the problem. The appalling lack of facilities is a much bigger problem. The teams regularly have to practice in the St. Joseph's High School gym over the summer, apparently, because of a lack of space. ND is promising a practice facility for basketball after the completion of the ludicrous Isengard construction project. No reason that we can't have one of the best facilities in the country, and then consistently sign top 20 classes. I've heard people complain that Brey is a "lazy recruiter." I don't know if that is true, but if so obviously that's on him.

As for Kelly vs. Brey, given the enormous difference in facilities, I'm not sure how much of a comparison can be made. Kelly also has an easier time recruiting than Brey because ND is a football school. We all can name the two coaches would be probably be better than Kelly. I can think of several who would be better than Brey (K, Tony Bennett, Izzo). How good would folks like Calipari be if they had a talent disadvantage, though?

Some data on Villanova and Xavier:

Villanova (Wright, 2002-present)
Overall record: 329-144 (.696)
NCAA tournament record: 15-10 (.600)

Xavier (Matta, Miller, Mack, 2001-present)
Overall record: 359-146 (.711)
NCAA tournament record: 17-12 (.586)

Notre Dame (Brey, 2000-present)
Overall record: 353-176 (.667)
NCAA tournament record: 9-10 (.474)

So you're right that Brey has done worse than them, but not that much worse. I agree that Brey has underwhelmed in the tournament. In Villanova's case I think location helps with recruiting. They also have much better facilities than we do. I don't know as much about Xavier, but I don't get the impression either school has very strict standards for academic performance among athletes.

 

[irishfan]

That's great and all but unlike with football, where ND has a fantastic coach, Notre Dame could do much better in basketball. I like Mike Brey, but Notre Dame could do better, and that's something you can't say with confidence about Brian Kelly. There is also much more the administration can do, I'm not denying that, but I will forever scratch my head when teams like Xavier, Villanova, etc are consistently better than Notre Dame. It just doesn't make any sense.

I don't think this is a fact. We could easily go BC/Al Skinner by firing Brey. I think the school would get destroyed by the media for firing Brey.

 

[RDU Irish]

Most favorable seeding I can remember for us as far as match-ups are concerned. As good of a path to Sweet 16 as we really could have hoped for. We still need to show up and play better than we have for 75% of the last month - hopefully the close to full week off plus playing a play in team help us out.

Really hope Brey looks to the bench early for some juice and can get offensive efficiency somewhat close to earlier season form.

As for recruiting - basketball is so dependent on one or two difference makers it is ridiculous. Completely different game than football. Brey gets further with less talent, hard to argue that. I also see more talent on the roster than I saw ten years ago, top to bottom. Still our fair share of stiffs but you have to expect some strike outs when you are shopping in the under-recruited 3 star aisle.

Maker or bust 2016/17!

 

[gkIrish]

Some data on Villanova and Xavier:

Villanova (Wright, 2002-present)
Overall record: 329-144 (.696)
NCAA tournament record: 15-10 (.600)

Xavier (Matta, Miller, Mack, 2001-present)
Overall record: 359-146 (.711)
NCAA tournament record: 17-12 (.586)

Notre Dame (Brey, 2000-present)
Overall record: 353-176 (.667)
NCAA tournament record: 10-10 (.500)

So you're right that Brey has done worse than them, but not that much worse. I agree that Brey has underwhelmed in the tournament. In Villanova's case I think location helps with recruiting. They also have much better facilities than we do. I don't know as much about Xavier, but I don't get the impression either school has very strict standards for academic performance among athletes.

I could be wrong but I think you credited Brey with an extra tournament win. I believe he is 9-10. (.474)

I look at it like this. How many times did we lose to a lower seed? How many times did we beat a higher seed?

Record against higher seeds: 1-5 (sole victory over a 4 seed when ND was a 5 seed)

Record against lower seeds: 8-5

Those are horrifying numbers. Two sweet sixteens in as many years is probably the worst success rate among any coach with 12+ years at a school. Leonard Hamilton might be the only coach who has been to less sweet sixteens in 10+ years at a school. And Hamilton has beat Brey in the tournament. I just don't get how people don't think we can do better.

 

[Ndaccountant]

Most favorable seeding I can remember for us as far as match-ups are concerned. As good of a path to Sweet 16 as we really could have hoped for. We still need to show up and play better than we have for 75% of the last month - hopefully the close to full week off plus playing a play in team help us out.

Really hope Brey looks to the bench early for some juice and can get offensive efficiency somewhat close to earlier season form.

As for recruiting - basketball is so dependent on one or two difference makers it is ridiculous. Completely different game than football. Brey gets further with less talent, hard to argue that. I also see more talent on the roster than I saw ten years ago, top to bottom. Still our fair share of stiffs but you have to expect some strike outs when you are shopping in the under-recruited 3 star aisle.

Maker or bust 2016/17!

Just curious why you think WVU is a good potential match-up for us?

 

[gkIrish]

I will say this. If we make a sweet 16 this year I will be very happy and that will be a very strong sign that Brey has turned the corner. I will probably leave him alone if he can do that. As of right now I view last year's run as an exception.

 

[RDU Irish]

Just curious why you think WVU is a good potential match-up for us?

They scare me more than Xavier for sure. Don't have depth of knowledge on the field this year - just think we have the ball handlers to manage their pressure and think they are a better match up for us than the other three seeds out there. SFA should give WV a game too - they are not getting a free pass to round of 32 - by far toughest draw of the 3 seeds out there IMO. Have to factor in odds we don't actually face them too, right.

 

[RDU Irish]

I will say this. If we make a sweet 16 this year I will be very happy and that will be a very strong sign that Brey has turned the corner. I will probably leave him alone if he can do that. As of right now I view last year's run as an exception.

After being there live for the ACC win last year, Brey has tons of slack in my book. Plenty of room for improvement but you don't knock off your coach two years after an Elite Eight run and magical ACC Championship. Keep beating all the North Carolina teams and he can stay forever as far as I am concerned.

 

[Ndaccountant]

They scare me more than Xavier for sure. Don't have depth of knowledge on the field this year - just think we have the ball handlers to manage their pressure and think they are a better match up for us than the other three seeds out there. SFA should give WV a game too - they are not getting a free pass to round of 32 - by far toughest draw of the 3 seeds out there IMO. Have to factor in odds we don't actually face them too, right.

From the other march madness thread.....I hate that match-up for us......

There were four teams that I really wanted to avoid as a 6/7 seed and they were MSU, Purdue, OU and WVU. For OU, I just don't think ND has good enough defense to shut them down. I think the other three would torch us on the glass.

As it stands, ND is 247th in the country in defensive rebounding %, at just under 71%. Purdue is first at 80%, MSU third at 79.5% and WVU is 75th at 74.6%. Likewise, offensive rebounding %'s are scary. WVU is first in the country at over 41%, MSU is 17th at 36% and Purdue is 41st at 32.8%. ND is 71st BTW, at 30.9%. Total rebounding %....MSU 1st in the country, Purdue is 3rd and WVU is 8th and ND is........105.

Assuming ND get's into the second round, it will take DJ playing his best game of the year along with tight officiating to offset WVU's physical play. If that happens, ND has a chance. If that doesn't happen, it will take a fantastic shooting night to beat WVU.

I think ND could beat WVU, but I am not very confident in it at all. I think the game will flow like the UNC game from this last weekend, where ND struggles to score consistently and gives up offensive rebound after offensive rebound. WVU will not shoot like UNC did, but I don't think it will matter if ND can't control the glass. If ND pairs against WVU, I like WVU by 13.

 

[gkIrish]

After being there live for the ACC win last year, Brey has tons of slack in my book. Plenty of room for improvement but you don't knock off your coach two years after an Elite Eight run and magical ACC Championship. Keep beating all the North Carolina teams and he can stay forever as far as I am concerned.

I was at the Kentucky and Wichita St. games but that doesn't mean I forgot what it was like losing to Old Dominion.

The problem with short-term memory is that a coach does well year 1, gets a pass for years 2-4, does well again in year 5 and everything starts over again.

We want a coach that does well years 2-4. We had a horrible regular season just 2 seasons ago. Yes we do beat #1 teams sometimes and yes we have had success against UNC and Duke. But we also have some terrible losses that nobody remembers because of one big win.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

I agree that ND could be much better in basketball. No reason the program shouldn't be a Final Four-type team every year. Like some of the other posters, though, I don't think Brey is really the problem. The appalling lack of facilities is a much bigger problem. The teams regularly have to practice in the St. Joseph's High School gym over the summer, apparently, because of a lack of space. ND is promising a practice facility for basketball after the completion of the ludicrous Isengard construction project. No reason that we can't have one of the best facilities in the country, and then consistently sign top 20 classes. I've heard people complain that Brey is a "lazy recruiter." I don't know if that is true, but if so obviously that's on him.

As for Kelly vs. Brey, given the enormous difference in facilities, I'm not sure how much of a comparison can be made. Kelly also has an easier time recruiting than Brey because ND is a football school. We all can name the two coaches would be probably be better than Kelly. I can think of several who would be better than Brey (K, Tony Bennett, Izzo). How good would Roy Williams/Pitino/Calipari/Self be if they had a talent disadvantage, though?

Well, Bill Self took Tulsa to the Elite Eight.

 

[NDgradstudent]

Well, Bill Self took Tulsa to the Elite Eight.

Fair enough. I'll take Self out of that.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

Fair enough. I'll take Self out of that.

Thanks.

 

[RDU Irish]

Good stuff. Like I said, haven't watched one minute of WVU this year and very unqualified opinion. Lots of "ifs" out there and that is why they play the game. Stats on rebounding are a rightful red flag and Big 12 is a pretty good Bball conference. Also their deep bench running us ragged when we are already running on fumes. Much rather lose to them than first round though!

 

[ACamp1900]

Pitino took Providence to a Final Four did he not??

 

[RDU Irish]

I was at the Kentucky and Wichita St. games but that doesn't mean I forgot what it was like losing to Old Dominion.

The problem with short-term memory is that a coach does well year 1, gets a pass for years 2-4, does well again in year 5 and everything starts over again.

We want a coach that does well years 2-4. We had a horrible regular season just 2 seasons ago. Yes we do beat #1 teams sometimes and yes we have had success against UNC and Duke. But we also have some terrible losses that nobody remembers because of one big win.

I remember a time when we beat nobody. Much rather be fire and ice than just pure ice.

Brey's MO is biting him in the ass again this year. No reason no to play 9 deep this year with Ryan, Farrell, Torres and Pfluegger supplementing Auguste, Vasturia, DJ, VJ and Colson. We would be a much better team right now if DJ and Steve were averaging half a dozen fewer minutes per game. Another MO, lack of urgency, nearly cost us a double bye in the ACC tourney - gotta motivate your boys to play for that b/c four games in four nights is tough for anyone.

 

[NDgradstudent]

Pitino took Providence to a Final Four did he not??

Okay, okay, I'll cut it down to just Calipari.

 

[Ndaccountant]

the kenpom.com blog

ND has a slim chance at making to the second weekend according to Kenpom.

 

[ACamp1900]

Okay, okay, I'll cut it down to just Calipari.

He took UMass to two straight Elite 8s and a Final Four...

 

[NDgradstudent]

I could be wrong but I think you credited Brey with an extra tournament win. I believe he is 9-10. (.474)

Yeah, that's right. 9-10.

 

[NDgradstudent]

He took UMass to two straight Elite 8s and a Final Four...

Didn't he recruit out of his mind (as ever)? He's a great recruiter, no doubt about that. He has had #1/2 recruiting classes since taking the job at UK in 2009. He has won a title. Duke and UConn (Duke gets UK-type classes; UConn usually signs classes ranked 10-20) have each won two titles in that time. So I can't say with confidence that if Calipari had to deal with ND's recruiting standards/sense of shame he could produce here like he has elsewhere. And, again, even at UK he has not won as many titles as other coaches/programs over the same period.

 

[ACamp1900]

Didn't he recruit out of his mind (as ever)? He's a great recruiter, no doubt about that. He has had #1/2 recruiting classes since taking the job at UK in 2009. He has won a title. Duke and UConn (Duke gets UK-type classes; UConn usually signs classes ranked 10-20) have each won two titles in that time. So I can't say with confidence that if Calipari had to deal with ND's recruiting standards/sense of shame he could produce here like he has elsewhere. And, again, even at UK he has not won as many titles as other coaches/programs over the same period.

I have zero dog in this fight, just saying he did in fact win big at UMass... just having fun being contrarian with you more than anything... I'm a Brey fan more than not.