2016 Presidential Horse Race

2016 Presidential Horse Race


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GoIrish41

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Again, that's why we have a Constitution with separation of powers. Things only get done if they're consensus things.


You're still harping on this concept that the President is the boss and it's up to Congress to do whatever he wants or otherwise be labeled "obstructionist." I could make the exact same argument you're making about Obama obstructing the Congress' agenda. They're equal branches of government. The President is not in charge. His wants and needs are no more important than those of Congress (see also: SCOTUS nomination).

Nobody is saying the president is the boss. The Senate is actively refusing to perform their Constitutional dutyno matter who is nominated. It is crystal clear that it is about the president and not about the nominees. I'm not a fan of the tactics, but if that is what they are going to do, own it! Don't act like this is some well reasoned approach to preserve the sanctity of the Constitution. They changed the rules for Obama. No president has had to deal with such obstruction. They should at least have the integrity to admit it.
 

wizards8507

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No president has had to deal with such obstruction. They should at least have the integrity to admit it.
Do you know how full of shit you are, or are you cheerfully ignorant? Every president who's ever had an opposition legislature has dealt with the exact same thing. We've posted videos of Obama, Biden, and Harry Reid advocating for the exact same tactics that they now find so appalling from the Republicans.
 

drayer54

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Nobody is saying the president is the boss. The Senate is actively refusing to perform their Constitutional dutyno matter who is nominated. It is crystal clear that it is about the president and not about the nominees. I'm not a fan of the tactics, but if that is what they are going to do, own it! Don't act like this is some well reasoned approach to preserve the sanctity of the Constitution. They changed the rules for Obama. No president has had to deal with such obstruction. They should at least have the integrity to admit it.
Bottle them up for me please....
IMG_1731.jpg

Both parties are doing exactly what the other one would be doing in this circumstance.

I do agree that the GOP should at least give a hearing and vote no if he appoints some other liberal from his binders of minority judges.

The last president who had to deal with this kind of obstruction was #43. Obama did this when he shoved Obamacare through. He can't have it both ways and he sure as hell hasn't done anything to reach across the aisle. He should have skipped his second term as he blew all of his capital on the ACA.
 

pkt77242

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Maybe I didn't demarcate my points clearly enough. The Community Reinvestment Act was one cause of the subprime mortgage crisis. The Federal Reserve holding interest rates artificially low as a separate point.


Profit and risk are not unrelated. When interest rates properly reflect risk, the decision to take those risks is properly correlated to the expected profit. In other words, the decision to maximize profit and the decision to adequately manage risk lead you to the same conclusion. The fact that the interest rates were too low means that the risk-reward calculation was skewed. Derivative investments weren't perceived to be as risky as they were because they were being bought with free money.


Except that all the new regulations you'd like to see would lead right back to consolidation.

I disagree but how about mortgage backed securities and credit rating agencies, they under pressure from banks (and because themselves wanted to keep rolling in the money), "fixed" ratings to sell MBS as safer than they were. While I think that low interest rates do throw off the risk calculation, I also think that pure greed throws of the risk calculation as well.

Also why would all the regulations that I would like to see lead right back to consolidation? and do you even know what regulations I am for?

ETA: The ratings agencies giving inaccurate risk ratings completely throws off the risk calculation as well.
 
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pkt77242

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Do you know how full of shit you are, or are you cheerfully ignorant? Every president who's ever had an opposition legislature has dealt with the exact same thing. We've posted videos of Obama, Biden, and Harry Reid advocating for the exact same tactics that they now find so appalling from the Republicans.

Did you even know what the whole Biden speech contained? I doubt it based off your comments. Go read that whole speech of his. Shockingly it doesn't go quite the way it is being portrayed.



ETA: Also looking at federal judge approvals he is getting a raw deal (much lower rate of confirmation) in comparison to GWB, Reagan and Clinton, so there is that.

EETA: During the end of the speech he says that he could support a moderate.

EETA: Obama didn't support Alito, so what? Again no one is saying that a Republican has to vote for anyone that Obama nominates but to refuse to even consider his pick is crazy.
 
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RDU Irish

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Obama was not divisive................... seriously?

Using WAS as the operative word makes it somewhat untrue - IS divisive would be much more accurate and indisputable. Then again, Dems struggle with what the meaning of the word "is" really is. He is both for the record - show me some early work that had Republican support and I might recant.

Honestly folks - anyone claiming Obama is anything but divisive is doing serious harm to their credibility. Too bad because you have made some decent arguments and now we get to completely discredit them due to one position being comp completely off the reservation.


And the Authoritarian/Libertarian axis graph has some merit Cack - be interesting to see people plot where they think we are versus their utopia on that one for shits and giggles.
 
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connor_in

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Maybe I didn't demarcate my points clearly enough. The Community Reinvestment Act was one cause of the subprime mortgage crisis. The Federal Reserve holding interest rates artificially low as a separate point.


Profit and risk are not unrelated. When interest rates properly reflect risk, the decision to take those risks is properly correlated to the expected profit. In other words, the decision to maximize profit and the decision to adequately manage risk lead you to the same conclusion. The fact that the interest rates were too low means that the risk-reward calculation was skewed. Derivative investments weren't perceived to be as risky as they were because they were being bought with free money.


Except that all the new regulations you'd like to see would lead right back to consolidation.


Sorry, in a funny mood today and when I read your first sentence, this popped into my head:


<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/ruRYa5KLVNU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 

pkt77242

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I always ask this when I hear this... how would that help?

We have over 5,000 banks in the United States. More than any other country (Canada, for reference, has 3). How would creating more banks solve any of the issues facing the banking industry? Big banks aren't squeezing out small guys, the opposite is happening. The big banks are buying up their debt products via capital markets as fast as community banks can underwrite it.

I'm all for smart regulation on the industry. But the knee jerk reactions of late haven't helped the industry. We need more regulation on derivatives, capital markets and trading. We need government to also do their part by increasing rates, lowering provisions and quit giving away stockholder money with all of the zero equity lending policies.

Huh? Canada has more than 3 banks, where are you getting that number? I am pretty sure they have about 30 domestic banks (dominated by a couple though just like here) and a fair amount of international banks that do business there. Am I missing something?

I agree with you on increased regulation on the derivatives, capital markets and trading.

While I am for breaking up banks, I don't want to just pass a law to do it. I am a huge fan of Glass-Steagall and I find the Volker rule too weak. While big banks currently pay more for deposit insurance I wouldn't mind upping it a little more. I am more or less for dis-incentivizing big banks not so much blowing them up.
 

woolybug25

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David Duke: Voting against Donald Trump is 'treason to your heritage' - POLITICO

Big endorsement (that's not really an endorsement) for Trump! Yuck!

Trump should really address this.

"When this show’s over, go out, call the Republican Party, but call Donald Trump’s headquarters, volunteer,” he said. “They’re screaming for volunteers. Go in there, you’re gonna meet people who are going to have the same kind of mind-set that you have.

Read more: David Duke: Voting against Donald Trump is 'treason to your heritage' - POLITICO
 

ACamp1900

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L. O.L. at the Duke stuff... just for the celebrity entertainment component of it all I can't wait to see how Trump handles that... haha
 

GoIrish41

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Trump should really address this.

He's been re-tweeting white supremacists throughout his candidacy, and nobody seems to care except a few exacerbated MSNBC hosts. If he alienates the racists who follow him, I suspect his numbers would tank pretty dramatically. I seriously doubt he'll address it, and I further doubt that the media will press him on the issue.
 

woolybug25

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Huh? Canada has more than 3 banks, where are you getting that number? I am pretty sure they have about 30 domestic banks (dominated by a couple though just like here) and a fair amount of international banks that do business there. Am I missing something?

I agree with you on increased regulation on the derivatives, capital markets and trading.

While I am for breaking up banks, I don't want to just pass a law to do it. I am a huge fan of Glass-Steagall and I find the Volker rule too weak. While big banks currently pay more for deposit insurance I wouldn't mind upping it a little more. I am more or less for dis-incentivizing big banks not so much blowing them up.

I meant to put "like 3", it was a joke. I looked up the number so we can be accurate for nitpicking purposes, it's 29 banks. That pales in comparison.

You're for MORE deposit insurance? Then don't whine about investment, because banks just wont lend. Right now, banks with more than $110M have a 10% reserve requirement. That is before liquidity premiums, overhead and loan loss. Go take a gander through the financials of the big banks and tell me that they are killing it in interest income. We are making money in FEES. That would only get worse. Say hello to higher interchange rates. More fees on your checking. Lower CD rates. The list goes on and on.

And why big banks? They are the ones with all of the deposit insurance and loan provision requirements. Banks with less than $15.2 million have no minimum reserve requirement and banks between $15.2 million and $110.2 million only have to use a liquidity ratio of 3% of liabilities. Credit Unions are damn near except.

But the Big Banks need more regs [/insert eye roll]. The community banks as a whole write just as many loans with not near the regulation. They just write them up with lower overhead and then portfolio sell them to the big guys.
 
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Cackalacky

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You're completely misrepresenting the nuances of various "conservative" ideologies. The Tea Party is not a more-right-wing version of Bush's cowboy conservatism. That's not the case at all. The Tea Party was anti-Bush just as much as they were anti-Obama. Their beef is not with the left-right trajectory of American politics, but with the up-down trajectory..
I did not say that the Tea party grew out of the Bush's cowboy conservatism. I don't even know what you mean by that. What I have said and maintain to this day is that American Libertarians in general are radical capitalists that has always been a component of the Republican base. Another component of that base is the Evangelicals. The Tea Party is a result of this merging between the two which are both radical philosophies. So in the Tea Party you have a radical group of two distinctly incompatible philosophies. It s funny really.

I also understand very well how American Libertarianism is not synonymous with Libertarianism anywhere else in the world. Libertarians outside of North America are Social Anarchists and their platform is nothing like the platform of the radical capitalists here.

Here is an article from Reason.com I have found to be more than entertaining. It is about how people who claim to be American Libertarians, have no idea what they are talking about o r as you put are misrepresenting the nuances of the "conservative" lol philosophy:
Understanding history as best we can is important for obvious reasons. It’s particularly important for libertarians who want to persuade people to the freedom philosophy. In making their case for individual freedom, mutual aid, social cooperation, foreign nonintervention, and peace, libertarians commonly place great weight on historical examples most often drawn from the early United States. So if they misstate history or draw obviously wrong conclusions, they will discredit their case. Much depends therefore on getting history right.


Libertarians naturally sense that their philosophy will be easier to sell to the public if they can root it in America's heritage. This is understandable. Finding common ground with someone you’re trying to persuade is a good way to win a fair hearing for your case. Well-known aspects of early American history, at least as it is usually taught, fit nicely with the libertarian outlook; these include Thomas Paine’s pamphlets, the opening passages of the Declaration of Independence, and popular animosity toward arbitrary British rule.

The problem arises when libertarians cherry-pick confirming historical anecdotes while distorting or ignoring deeper disconfirming evidence. The drawbacks to grounding the case for freedom in historical inaccuracies should be obvious. If a libertarian with a shaky historical story encounters someone with sounder historical knowledge, the libertarian is in for trouble. The point of discussing libertarianism with nonlibertarians is not to feel good but to persuade. If the history is wrong, why should anyone believe anything else the libertarian says?

The damage done to a young person new to libertarianism is particularly tragic. Discovery of the libertarian philosophy, especially when combined with the a priori approach of Austrian economics, can make young libertarians feel virtually omniscient and ready for argument on any relevant topic. When such libertarians venture into empirical areas—such as history—they are prone to use ideology or the a priori method as guides to the truth. If libertarians with this frame of mind run into serious students of history, the results can be traumatic. The disillusionment can be so great that a young libertarian might decide to keep quiet from then on or give up the philosophy entirely. A libertarian who might have become a powerful advocate is lost to the movement. Thus we owe young libertarians the most accurate historical interpretation possible. Gross oversimplification sets them up for disaster. It's like sending a sheep to the slaughter.

Where are libertarians likely to go wrong when it comes to history? By and large, it’s in presenting American history as an essentially libertarian story. [This goes for the industrial revolution in England also.] We’ve all heard it: British imperial rule violated the rights of the American colonists, who—fired up by the ideas of John Locke— drove out the British, adopted limited government and free markets through the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, and pursued a noninterventionist foreign policy; this lasted until the Progressives and New Dealers came along. It’s not that everything about this overview is wrong; it contains grains of truth. Americans were upset by British arbitrary rule (which violated the accustomed "rights of Englishmen"), and Lockean ideas were in the air. But much of the rest of the libertarian template is more folklore than history.

For one thing, the early state governments were hardly strictly limited. Libertarians too readily confuse the desire for a relatively weak central government with the desire for strict limits on government generally. For many Americans a strong central government was seen as an intrusion on state and local government to which they gave their primary allegiance. But that is not a libertarian view; it depends on what people want state and local governments to do. (Jonathan Hughes's The Governmental Habit Redux is helpful here.)

Libertarians also wish to believe that the early national government was fairly libertarian-ish. With the exception of slavery and tariffs, it is often explained, government was strictly limited by the Constitution and Bill of Rights. Slavery of course was an egregious exception, which was enforced by the national government, and passionate opponents agitated against it. Tariffs were part of a larger system of government intervention, which many libertarians simply ignore. Nor were these the only serious exceptions to an otherwise libertarian program. But before getting to that, we must say something about the Constitution.

Libertarians of course know that the Constitution was not the first charter of the United States. But many of them rarely talk about the first one: the Articles of Confederation, which was adopted before the war with Britain ended. Under the Articles the weak national quasi-government lacked, among other powers, the powers to tax and regulate trade, which is why I call it a quasi-government. It obtained its money from the states, which did have the power to tax. So while it could not steal money, it nonetheless subsisted on stolen money. [The Articles were no libertarian document.]

Advocates of a unified nation under a powerful central government, such as James Madison, tried immediately to expand government power under the Articles but got nowhere. The centralists eventually arranged for the Federal Convention in Philadelphia, where the Constitution—the acknowledged purpose of which was to produce more, not less, government—was adopted. The libertarian Albert Jay Nock called the convention a coup d’etat because it was only supposed to amend the Articles. Instead, the men assembled tore up the Articles, crafted an entirely new plan that included the powers to tax and to regulate trade, and changed the ratification rules to permit merely nine states to carry the day, instead of the unanimous consent required for amendments to the Articles.

The Constitution that was sent to the state conventions for ratification drew the opposition of people who soon were known as Antifederalists. (Those who favored the Constitution’s strong central government were the real antifederalists, but they grabbed the popular "federalist" label first.) The Antifederalists lodged many serious objections to the proposed Constitution, only one of which was the lack of a bill of rights. They saw danger in, among other things, the broad language of the tax power, the general-welfare clause, the supremacy clause, and the necessary-and-proper clause—all of which, in their view, harbored unenumerated powers, contrary to Madison's declaration. The Bill of Rights, which the first Congress later added to the already-ratified Constitution, did not even attempt to address the Antifederalists’ major objections. [History, I submit, has confirmed their predictions of tyranny.]

Many libertarians who presumably know this story are strangely silent about it. On the rare occasion they mention the Articles, they say little more than that unspecified problems with them prompted the Philadelphia convention and adoption by the assembled demigod-like Founding Fathers of that ingenious architecture of limited government we know as the Constitution. Then, the story continues, the libertarian masses’ objection to the lack of a bill of rights led to the adoption of the first ten amendments to protect our liberties. All was well until ...

One would expect a "government" that lacked the power to tax and regulate trade to be of more interest to libertarians. One would also expect libertarians to be suspicious of a plan to address those alleged deficiencies. Instead, the Articles typically are shunted aside and the Constitution is lauded as a historic achievement in the struggle for liberty. That is odd indeed.

I think we can explain this lack of interest in the Articles by noting that it fits poorly into the mainstream libertarian narrative about America. After all, it would be hard to praise the Constitution as a reasonably good attempt to limit government while acknowledging that it replaced a political arrangement under which the government could neither tax nor regulate trade. In that context the Constitution looks like a step backward not forward.

This also explains an otherwise inexplicable phenomenon: the lack of interest among many libertarians in the most libertarian of the early Americans: the Antifederalists. [Admittedly, not all Antifederalists were as libertarian as the best of them were.] Libertarians who have what has been called a Constitution fetish could hardly embrace the principled libertarian opponents of their beloved Constitution. The story wouldn't make sense. [See Jeffrey Rogers Hummel’s "The Constitution as Counter-Revolution" (PDF).]


Many libertarians also like to paint the early national period in pacific colors, quoting Washington, Jefferson, and Madison against standing armies, alliances, and war. In contrast to today, we’re told, the American people and their "leaders" hated empire and imperialism. But this is misleading. From the start America’s rulers, with public support, were bent on creating at least a continental empire, including Canada, Mexico, and neighboring islands. Some had the entire Western Hemisphere in their sights. Americans were not anti-empire; they were anti-British Empire—or, more accurately, anti-Old-World Empire. They did not want to be colonists anymore. America’s future rulers saw their revolution as a showdown between an exhausted old imperial order and the rising imperial order in the New World. [Of course, it was called an Empire of, or for, Liberty.] Continental expansion—conquest—required an army powerful enough to "remove" the Indians from lands the white population coveted. "Removal"of course meant brutal confinement—so the Indian populations could be controlled—or extermination. This government program constituted a series of wars on foreign nations in the name of national security.

Continental expansion also was accomplished by acknowledged unconstitutional acts, such as the national government’s acquisition of the huge Louisiana territory from Napoleon, which placed the inhabitants under the jurisdiction of the U.S. government without their consent. The War of 1812 was motivated in part by a wish to take Canada from the British. [See my "The War of 1812 Was the Health of the State," part 1 and part 2.] A few years later, American administrations began to built up the army and navy in order to bully Spain into ceding another huge area. The U.S. government thus gained jurisdiction over a vast territory reaching to the Pacific Ocean, from which the navy could project American influence and power to Asia. [In light of this empire-building, the Civil War can be seen as empire preservation.]

National security was always on the politicians’ minds: the exceptional nation, whose destiny was manifest, could never be safe if surrounded by Old World monarchies and their colonial possessions. American politicians generally hoped to acquire those possessions through negotiation, but war—which major political figures believed was good for the national spirit—was always an option, as Secretary of State John Quincy Adams let the Spanish know in no uncertain terms in the years before 1820. Had Spain been more defiant of Adams, the Spanish-American War would have occurred 78 years earlier than it did.

We can acknowledge that leading politicians were domestic liberals, relatively speaking, in that they did not want the national government to intrude (as the British did) arbitrarily into the private affairs of Americans. The resulting personal freedom can account for the rising prosperity. But libertarians tend to push this point too far. In fact, with the War of 1812—slightly more than two decades after ratification of the Constitution—America’s rulers, including former Jeffersonians, favored expanded powers for the national government, including a central role in the economy to create a national market and a national-security state. A pushback by the older Jeffersonian wing of the American political establishment took place briefly, but the centralists soon won the day for good. Alexander Hamilton and Henry Clay were surely smiling.

What Libertarians are or are not:
Libertarians Are Not Classical (European) Conservatives

Libertarians are not "conservatives"; libertarians are radicals (principled advocates) for individual freedom and responsibility - and the pure free-market private-enterprise economic system which would result from a consistent application of that principle. A "conservative" on the other hand is one who wishes to preserve the status quo. The status quo in America today is the semi-socialist, semi-fascist mixed-economy welfare-state - a system inimical to personal freedom and responsibility. Libertarians do not support such a system, and oppose any and all measures to expand it while favoring the total repeal of interventionist laws and regulatory agencies.

Conservatives of the William F. Buckley or William Bennett variety are generally more concerned with imposing "order" than with allowing freedom. Although they often (and rightly) complain that government has got "too big" and too meddlesome in our lives, on some specific issues they themselves favor using the political power of government to legislate and enforce their view of morality upon the populace in "the national interest" or for the "social good." William Bennett, for example, opposes the legalization and/or decriminalization of the sale and use of heroin and cocaine, and he continues to support the no-win "War on Drugs" which is causing violence to escalate in our society. Libertarians, on the other hand, realize that "enforced morality" (in such personal matters) is a contradiction in terms; without freedom of choice there can be no moral responsibility or personal growth.

Libertarians also perceive that freedom brings about a more complex, dynamic and harmonious order in society (co-ordinated by the market price mechanism) than any static view of order imposed by central political planning and regulations of our non-coercive behaviors. Some conservatives occasionally seem to forget how miserably the governmment-planned societies under hard-core socialism have failed to fulfill their glorious promises. Outside of its legitimate functions of protecting people from criminal violence and foreign threats, government does nothing as well or as economically as a private-enterprise market economy based on private property rights with individual freedom of enterprise and exchange.

Libertarians are for individual freedom - and this includes the freedom of people to do some things that we and other people may disapprove of. A person should be free (from coercive interference) to do what he pleases with his own life and property, as long as he does not violate (through coercive interference) the same right of other peaceful persons to do what they want with their lives and properties. (The second clause is logically implied in the first.) Libertarians do not oppose non-coercive persuasion, educational efforts, private advertising campaigns, organized boycotts, or even social ostracism as means of trying to effect changes in the private behavior of others. (Many people have stopped smoking tobacco in recent years partly as a result of education and persuasion by friends and family members.) What libertarians do oppose is the attempt by anyone (individuals or government officials) to impose their own views of "fairness" or personal morality on others through the initiation of the use of coercion, by either personal violence or political legislation and governmental action. This principled position sets libertarians apart from conservatives as well as other non-libertarians. What a Libertarian Is and Is Not

From the Libertarian Party's Own Platform. I know for a fact we have had our own discussions on these topics and you clearly fall on the complete opposite side of these platform ideals, with the exception of #4 (but most Teap Party and self identifying Libertarians I know also reject #4):
My Libertarian Friends Are Either Lying Or Confused
Here are 4 reasons most libertarians are either lying or confused, of why many most – if not all – of my Libertarian friends could, would and should never be actual members of the Libertarian Party. And bear in mind, these are taken directly from the official Libertarian Party Platform; these items are not my opinion.

1. Libertarians Support Gay Marriage
1.4 Personal Relationships

Sexual orientation, preference, gender, or gender identity should have no impact on the government’s treatment of individuals, such as in current marriage, child custody, adoption, immigration or military service laws. Government does not have the authority to define, license or restrict personal relationships. Consenting adults should be free to choose their own sexual practices and personal relationships.

2. Libertarians are Pro-Choice
I almost wrote that they are Pro-Abortion as most of my Libertarian friends do not, or cannot, distinguish the difference between being pro-choice and pro-abortion.

1.5 Abortion

Recognizing that abortion is a sensitive issue and that people can hold good-faith views on all sides, we believe that government should be kept out of the matter, leaving the question to each person for their conscientious consideration.

3. Libertarians Believe in Climate Change
2.2 Environment

We support a clean and healthy environment and sensible use of our natural resources. Private landowners and conservation groups have a vested interest in maintaining natural resources. Pollution and misuse of resources cause damage to our ecosystem. Governments, unlike private businesses, are unaccountable for such damage done to our environment and have a terrible track record when it comes to environmental protection. Protecting the environment requires a clear definition and enforcement of individual rights in resources like land, water, air, and wildlife. Free markets and property rights stimulate the technological innovations and behavioral changes required to protect our environment and ecosystems. We realize that our planet’s climate is constantly changing, but environmental advocates and social pressure are the most effective means of changing public behavior. [emphasis added]

4. Libertarians Supported Open Borders and Free Trade
It is important to note two things here:

First, they specifically cite those crossing borders to “escape from tyranny.” Doesn’t that apply to children from Latin America?
Second, the only exclusion to the unrestrained ability to cross borders are foreign nationals posing “a credible threat,” otherwise they do not support any border restrictions to include persons, money and corporate interests.
3.4 Free Trade and Migration

We support the removal of governmental impediments to free trade. Political freedom and escape from tyranny demand that individuals not be unreasonably constrained by government in the crossing of political boundaries. Economic freedom demands the unrestricted movement of human as well as financial capital across national borders. However, we support control over the entry into our country of foreign nationals who pose a credible threat to security, health or property.
So when I say, with a straight face, American Libertarians and particularly the Tea Party are not conservative and are confused about where they are in the political spectrum, I mean that. Very much.

And when I say the Republican party is dead, I mean that as well as it is now just a group of warring tribes:
The Republican Party is dead and it’s been replaced by 6 warring tribes: Robert Reich
 
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wizards8507

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I know for a fact we have had our own discussions on these topics and you clearly fall on the complete opposite side of these platform ideals, with the exception of #4 (but most Teap Party and self identifying Libertarians I know also reject #4):
My Libertarian Friends Are Either Lying Or Confused
What a narrow-minded and idiotic article. Obviously there can be disagreement even among people with common principles. The Libertarian Party platform is not a proxy for the only coherent positions that can be held by a principled libertarian.

1. Libertarianism makes no normative claim about gay marriage whatsoever. A coherent libertarian worldview is neither pro- nor anti- gay marriage. As a political matter, all libertarianism says is that government shouldn't pass laws restricting free association. That means no laws recognizing gay marriage (or any other kind of marriage) and no laws that prevent gay marriage (or any other kind of marriage). A gay couple is free to get married by any church or other institution that will marry them, but those churches are also free to decline to participate in such a ceremony.

2. Abortion is a very complicated issue in the libertarian community. The Libertarian Party is officially pro-choice, but they don't speak for an entire intellectual framework. There's a coherent argument to be made within the libertarian framework that abortion should be illegal. Specifically, there's an ordering of our natural rights. The right to life is superior to the right to liberty. You can't shoot a child in the face for trespassing on your lawn, for example, even though he technically violated your private property rights.

3. A libertarian can believe or not believe in climate change, just like a libertarian can believe in Jesus or Buddha. What a libertarian would not do is advocate for policies designed to restrict free trade on the basis of climate. A libertarian would, however, advocate for individuals who are harmed by pollution to be able to sue polluters.

4. The author of the article is just a fucking idiot suggesting libertarians support open borders. He doesn't even appear to read the text he quoted. "[W]e support control over the entry into our country of foreign nationals who pose a credible threat to security, health or property."

ETA: The fallacy of most of the rest of what you posted is that it presents a false dichotomy between liberty and order, as if the two are at the opposite ends of some spectrum. That's absolutely false. Free people will form their own order. Libertarians do not oppose this order, just like they don't oppose order that comes from churches, communities, or families. The only order that libertarians oppose is order imposed by the state. You're confusing libertarianism (free from state control) and libertinism (free from all control).
 
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C

Cackalacky

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What a narrow-minded and idiotic article. Obviously there can be disagreement even among people with common principles. The Libertarian Party platform is not a proxy for the only coherent positions that can be held by a principled libertarian.

1. Libertarianism makes no normative claim about gay marriage whatsoever. A coherent libertarian worldview is neither pro- nor anti- gay marriage. As a political matter, all libertarianism says is that government shouldn't pass laws restricting free association. That means no laws recognizing gay marriage (or any other kind of marriage) and no laws that prevent gay marriage (or any other kind of marriage). A gay couple is free to get married by any church or other institution that will marry them, but those churches are also free to decline to participate in such a ceremony.

2. Abortion is a very complicated issue in the libertarian community. The Libertarian Party is officially pro-choice, but they don't speak for an entire intellectual framework. There's a coherent argument to be made within the libertarian framework that abortion should be illegal. Specifically, there's an ordering of our natural rights. The right to life is superior to the right to liberty. You can't shoot a child in the face for trespassing on your lawn, for example, even though he technically violated your private property rights.

3. A libertarian can believe or not believe in climate change, just like a libertarian can believe in Jesus or Buddha. What a libertarian would not do is advocate for policies designed to restrict free trade on the basis of climate. A libertarian would, however, advocate for individuals who are harmed by pollution to be able to sue polluters.

4. The author of the article is just a fucking idiot suggesting libertarians support open borders. He doesn't even appear to read the text he quoted. "[W]e support control over the entry into our country of foreign nationals who pose a credible threat to security, health or property."
Interesting you skipped the entire meat of my post to tackle the end link....only to confirm

that to be a Libertarian is to really have no stance on anything at all in order to claim to be a Libertarian?
 

Irish#1

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Q: Are the Republicans or Democrats more to blame for our current situation?
A: Yes


I may be totally off base here, but I think Trumps and Bernie's popularity are due to several factors:

1. There are a lot of voters who don't really care about politics and simply want a real change. They don't care or want to know, the what if (insert candidates name) is elected. Electing another politician is not change.
2. Trump supporters are tired of the liberals and PC screaming at the top of their lungs all the time trying to make any who oppose look like a cold uncaring narcissist. Trump is simply saying what they are feeling.
3. Bernie touting things like elimination of student loan debt is just what millennials want to hear.

Bottom line, they want change and are willing to deal with the fallout later on.
 
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Cackalacky

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lol. The main point of my post was really the large portion of it above the article you guys hate. Ok.. So... what about the rest of the post. Everything from the top to the link? The part that really describes American Libertarians and how they are not conservatives but really believe they are. Radical Capitalism is not a conservative philosophy.
 
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wizards8507

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Interesting you skipped the entire meat of my post to tackle the end link....only to confirm

that to be a Libertarian is to really have no stance on anything at all in order to claim to be a Libertarian?

lol. The main point of my post was really the large portion of it above the article you guys hate. Ok.. So... what about the rest of the post. Everything from the top to the link? The part that really describes American Libertarians and how they are not conservatives but really believe they are. Radical Capitalism is not a conservative philosophy.
I was called away from my desk mid-edit.

ETA: The fallacy of most of the rest of what you posted is that it presents a false dichotomy between liberty and order, as if the two are at the opposite ends of some spectrum. That's absolutely false. Free people will form their own order. Libertarians do not oppose this order, just like they don't oppose order that comes from churches, communities, or families. The only order that libertarians oppose is order imposed by the state. You're confusing libertarianism (free from state control) and libertinism (free from all control).
 
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Cackalacky

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ETA: The fallacy of most of the rest of what you posted is that it presents a false dichotomy between liberty and order, as if the two are at the opposite ends of some spectrum. That's absolutely false. Free people will form their own order. Libertarians do not oppose this order, just like they don't oppose order that comes from churches, communities, or families. The only order that libertarians oppose is order imposed by the state. You're confusing libertarianism (free from state control) and libertinism (free from all control).

But I am not making that dichotomy. Conservative philosophy (as known all over the world and most importantly in Europe from which we have diverged) makes that distinction on its own... one that is not shared by American Libertarians and the Tea party. The only thing confusing here is the use of the definition of libertarianism and the Libertarian views of themselves within the political spectrum. You and Whiskeyjack have had this conversation umpteen times and I just don't see that you fully understand the implications.

I am not implying nor have I stated anything about libertinism.

You originally stated that I was mis-characterizing the nuances of conservative beliefs. I proceed to provide you a lengthy article showing how the Tea Party and Libertarians within the Republican party are not in fact conservatives at all, just radical capitalists. I don't think its me who is mis-characterizing the recent past and current state of the Republican party. I believe that the American Libertarians and the Tea Party are making it up as they go along and are not true conservatives and are not True libertarians either by the rest of the world's definition or the Libertarian Party's own platform.

The CATO Institute even acknowledges that Libertarians are not conservatives and that by several logical arguments should be POLITICAL ENEMIES... yet they are two of the biggest tribes in the Republican party and the Tea Party itself is a combination of the two.
Debate: Libertarianism vs. Conservatism | Cato Institute
 
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wizards8507

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But I am not making that dichotomy. Conservative philosophy (as known all over the world and most importantly in Europe from which we have diverged) makes that distinction on its own... one that is not shared by American Libertarians and the Tea party. The only thing confusing here is the use of the definition of libertarianism and the Libertarian views of themselves within the political spectrum. You and Whiskeyjack have had this conversation umpteen times and I just don't see that you fully understand the implications.

I am not implying nor have I stated anything about libertinism.

You originally stated that I was mis-characterizing the nuances of conservative beliefs. I proceed to provide you a lengthy article showing how the Tea Party and Libertarians within the Republican party are not in fact conservatives at all, just radical capitalists. I don't think its me who is mis-characterizing the recent past and current state of the Republican party. I believe that the American Libertarians and the Tea Party are making it up as they go along and are not true conservatives and are not True libertarians either by the rest of the world's definition or the Libertarian Party's own platform.

The CATO Institute even acknowledges that Libertarians are not conservatives and that by several logical arguments should be POLITICAL ENEMIES... yet they are two of the biggest tribes in the Republican party and the Tea Party itself is a combination of the two.
Debate: Libertarianism vs. Conservatism | Cato Institute
I fully understand the differences between libertarianism and conservatism as properly defined. All we're arguing about is the vocabulary on how these terms are used in 2016.

http://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/articles/hayek-why-i-am-not-conservative.pdf
 

IrishLax

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I enjoy listening/reading Chomsky.

LAX, what's your beef? (Serious question, I like to hear both sides to form a better opinion.)

My beef with Chomsky is that he's your classic full-of-himself academic who is completely detached from the way the world actually works. His positions are frankly moronic (or, at minimum, idealistic to a severe fault) once you break them down. Go read about anarchism... go read about inherently contradictory and ridiculous of idea of "libertarian socialism"... that's what this wack job believes in. He gives zero craps about pragmatism or realism, and instead argues only in academic impossibilities.

The only reason his political opinions make waves is because they're outlandish, not because they're accurate or insightful. The dude literally just compared Trump's 35% support to Hitler. HITLER! You don't think there could've been a better comparison? But nah, that's now how Chomsky rolls.

He has a small, dedicated group of radicals/academics that LOVE him. Everyone else realizes that he's not only a radical, but a total clown. You can distill his political theory into Jackie Moon yelling "EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY!" (but with larger words to seem smart) + "all countries and institutions of power are evil/bad" + "we don't need laws and people should be able to live a blissful utopia of cooperation."

Once upon a time, I made the mistake of reading some of his stuff. I hope to save everyone else the time of making the same mistake.
 
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Cackalacky

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