Wisconsin Company Limits Muslim Prayers to Scheduled Breaks

[IrishLax]

Certainly no one has a right to work for a certain company. But no entity or employer can infringe on your personal constitutional first amendment rights, correct? Obviously with the exception of undue hardships.

If the employer is correct that the prayer disruption causes a roughly 2% reduction in production that's definitely undue hardship.

 

[RDU Irish]

If the employer is correct that the prayer disruption causes a roughly 2% reduction in production that's definitely undue hardship.

According to Bernie Sanders - 90% is not a hardship so Ariens and his ilk should sack up.

 

[Cackalacky]

If the employer is correct that the prayer disruption causes a roughly 2% reduction in production that's definitely undue hardship.

Certainly. No problems there.

 

[Cackalacky]

What I have not seen mentioned here is that Ariens offered to move the employees to different shifts to better accommodate their prayer needs. Based on the schedule above, it looks to me that 3rd shift would be that time period. If the impacted employees were not interested in disrupting their life to take that shift, how could they ask the company to disrupt their workplace to accommodate their needs?

That would make them have to sleep through most of their prayer times right? Not sure how many devout Muslims do 3rd shifts anywhere. Don' think I agree that somehow providing two 10 minute breaks is comparable to asking someone to completely change shifts and their family lives.

 

[GATTACA!]

I stayed away from this thread because I was afraid it would be infuriating, boy was i right..

Why should anyone get special treatment? The employer should lay out the schedule before the workers accept the job. Your two 15 minute breaks will be at X and Y, your 30 minute break will be at Z. If you have any problems with that don't accept the fucking job??? We aren't going to kowtow to your astrological break schedule and put ANY undue burden on the rest of our employees or our productivity that we don't have to. We will simply hire someone that can work within the schedule we are offering.

The new branch of religion i'm starting states that i'm required to have a 45 minute break once a day. This break will be based on the migration patterns of wild salmon, so the times will fluctuate every day. I'm also required to be paid double time during these breaks in accordance with my religion so that i can donate a portion of my salary to the leader of my faith. If you don't accommodate my beliefs you are an anti-gattagite or gattagapobic.

Absolutely infuriating

 

[RDU Irish]

Serious question, when does a Muslim astronaut pray? Is it possible that the orbit of a spacecraft may require continuous praying until the synchronization is broken? Or that they have to pray for 5 seconds every couple minutes? Apply some Ninjaneering to that one, Cack.

Where is Nell Carter when you need her.

 

[Ndaccountant]

That would make them have to sleep through most of their prayer times right? Not sure how many devout Muslims do 3rd shifts anywhere. Don' think I agree that somehow providing two 10 minute breaks is comparable to asking someone to complete change shifts and their family lives.

Let me back it up a bit, as there is more to "their side" of the story.

1) - They met with local Muslim leaders to asses the situation and to come back with reasonable solutions for employees
2) - The current practice of taking unscheduled breaks was causing both morale issues and efficiency issues
3) - Based on the two notes above, the company offered the employees the chance to create a new shift where they could work without needing to break for prayer and/or create specific work schedule arrangements where their hours could flex based on prayer needs but not disrupt production.

To me, that sounds as if they are willing to work with them to find a solution. If the employees that are impacted are basically taking a " my way or I am leaving" approach, then I cannot fault Ariens.

 

[Cackalacky]

Let me back it up a bit, as there is more to "their side" of the story.

1) - They met with local Muslim leaders to asses the situation and to come back with reasonable solutions for employees
2) - The current practice of taking unscheduled breaks was causing bot moral issues and efficiency issues
3) - Based on the two notes above, the company offered the employees the chance to create a new shift where they could work without needing to break for prayer and/or create specific work schedule arrangements where their hours could flex based on prayer needs.

To me, that sounds as if they are willing to work with them to find a solution. If the employees that are impacted are basically taking a " my way or I am leaving" approach, then I cannot fault Ariens.

Agree to all of those. Not much else left to do especially if they met with Muslim leaders on an appropriate way to handle their employees. Great idea on their part.

 

[Cackalacky]

Serious question, when does a Muslim astronaut pray? Is it possible that the orbit of a spacecraft may require continuous praying until the synchronization is broken? Or that they have to pray for 5 seconds every couple minutes? Apply some Ninjaneering to that one, Cack.

Where is Nell Carter when you need her.

Why are you singling me out? I am neither defending nor promoting anything. Why are you being an uber dick in this thread, Judgy McJudgerson? No one else is. If you are incapable of not being a dick in your responses, you should probably check out of this thread.

 

[RDU Irish]

Lets not compare prescribed religious activities with smoking breaks. That is not what this is. This is something that devout Muslims are required to do AFAIK. Smoking is a privilege not a right and it definitely is not covered under this blanket term "religious freedom" that the Christians in this country are rallying behind. I am curious as to if they are willing to stand behind it for their fellow Muslim countrymen.

I likewise question the timing and motives.

I think you are either trolling (successfully in my case) or Socratically defending. But I find this issue ridiculous and really feel for the Ariens guy who is likely enduring one of the more stressful times of his life. Probably has had plenty of sleepless nights trying to figure out how to deal with this problem so his business can stay successful. People sit around wondering why manufacturing jobs get shipped overseas or get automated - and then don't even try to fathom how much of a disruption this causes to productivity.

 

[Cackalacky]

I think you are either trolling (successfully in my case) or Socratically defending. But I find this issue ridiculous and really feel for the Ariens guy who is likely enduring one of the more stressful times of his life. Probably has had plenty of sleepless nights trying to figure out how to deal with this problem so his business can stay successful. People sit around wondering why manufacturing jobs get shipped overseas or get automated - and then don't even try to fathom how much of a disruption this causes to productivity.

All I am doing is trying to have a discussion. Bring up different perspectives... instead of "these guys fucking suck....". I mean this is as applicable as anything Christians have come up with this pas few years as to how oppressed they are and how their religious freedoms are being imposed upon. Funny how when its Muslims who are in the minority it becomes, "these guys fucking suck. They should serve me a pork sandwich for every minute i have to watch their station."


I fucking give up..... screw this shit.....

 

[T Town Tommy]

What Law(s)? I understand it that a corporation, while enjoying legal protections, does not have the right to infringe on constitutionally granted rights of persons held individually or as a group.

I am honestly asking this with no pretense. I don't understand how a corporation s efficiency is paramount to its employees constitutional rights.

A company has the right to try and maintain an acceptable level of efficiency. That's why they are in business. If not, they are not competitive. The recourse these employees have is pretty simple. They can sue the company based on discrimination due to their protected class of religion. They have to show that the company's actions when changing their policies were a deliberate act of religious discrimination. The company has the "right" to prove the request is an undue hardship on their ability to run their company. Pretty simple.

I have a constitutional right to own a gun as well. But if my employer decides they don't want guns on their property, they have that right. The second amendment guarantees me that right. It is really no different... only that in this case, it deals with religion... a protected class. But that protection only goes so far as the courts have ruled repeatedly. The only responsibility the company has at this point is that they are able to show an undue hardship that affects their ability to be productive. And from what I have read, they have good standing to do so.

 

[IrishinSyria]

I stayed away from this thread because I was afraid it would be infuriating, boy was i right..

Why should anyone get special treatment? The employer should lay out the schedule before the workers accept the job. Your two 15 minute breaks will be at X and Y, your 30 minute break will be at Z. If you have any problems with that don't accept the fucking job??? We aren't going to kowtow to your astrological break schedule and put ANY undue burden on the rest of our employees or our productivity that we don't have to. We will simply hire someone that can work within the schedule we are offering.

The new branch of religion i'm starting states that i'm required to have a 45 minute break once a day. This break will be based on the migration patterns of wild salmon, so the times will fluctuate every day. I'm also required to be paid double time during these breaks in accordance with my religion so that i can donate a portion of my salary to the leader of my faith. If you don't accommodate my beliefs you are an anti-gattagite or gattagapobic.

Absolutely infuriating

should have stayed away longer imo

 

[Domina Nostra]

All I am doing is trying to have a discussion. Bring up different perspectives... instead of "these guys fucking suck....". I mean this is as applicable as anything Christians have come up with this pas few years as to how oppressed they are and how their religious freedoms are being imposed upon. Funny how when its Muslims who are in the minority it becomes, "these guys fucking suck. They should serve me a pork sandwich for every minute i have to watch their station."


I fucking give up..... screw this shit.....

What is "funny" is watching liberals obsessively defend Islam, the least liberal idealogy imaginable, in order to get at Christians. It's to the point where European nations are literally hiding crime statistics in order to protect their political orthodoxy.

And it makes perfect sense to privilege the long-held customs and attitudes of the overwhleming majority over the customs and attitudes of a very, very small minority. Every country and every institution in the world does it in countless ways.

 

[Irish#1]

Certainly no one has a right to work for a certain company. But no entity or employer can infringe on your personal constitutional first amendment rights, correct? Obviously with the exception of undue hardships.

The Federal law is open to interpretation. What constitutes religious infringement may not mean "You can't pray at this time".

 

[IrishinSyria]

What is "funny" is watching liberals obsessively defend Islam, the least liberal idealogy imaginable, in order to get at Christians. It's to the point where European nations are literally hiding crime statistics in order to protect their political orthodoxy.

And it makes perfect sense to privilege the long-held customs and attitudes of the overwhleming majority over the customs and attitudes of a very, very small minority. Every country and every institution in the world does it in countless ways.

Nobody's obsessively defended anything in this thread. There's been intelligent discussion from both liberals and conservatives on what constitutes an "undue burden" in the case of an assembly line, which is the LEGAL STANDARD IN QUESTION. There is absolutely no legal (or moral) basis for arguing that the Civil Rights Act doesn't apply to Muslims because of long-held customs or their minority status or anything like that.

 

[GATTACA!]

should have stayed away longer imo

Well when you put it that way, you've got me all turned around......

 

[IrishLion]

We were doing really good, ya'll.

Stay on track and continue to debate/discuss without being dicks.

 

[IrishinSyria]

So this case looks kind of similar. It ended with a consent decree, so it doesn't have much value in terms of setting precedent, but if I had to guess some sort of deal like this will resolve this one too.

Relevant part:

Gold’n Plump shall not discriminate on the basis of religion in violation of Title VII and
shall reasonably accommodate the religious practices of Charging Parties and other Muslim
employees with respect to daily Muslim prayers at its Arcadia, Wisconsin and Cold Spring,
Minnesota processing facilities on each shift as follows: In addition to receiving other breaks
and lunch breaks as otherwise required by law, such employees in second processing shall be
afforded a ten minute break in the second one-half of the shift which break shall be scheduled so
as to accommodate the daily Muslim schedule for prayer. Employees in first processing shall be
permitted to transfer to secondary processing in order to accommodate their practices with
respect to daily prayers.

Gold’n Plump will not adopt or allow any person or entity acting on its behalf to adopt a policy by which applicants or employees must declare, in advance, that they do not have a right to reasonable accommodation. It will not adopt or allow any person or entity acting on its behalf
to adopt a policy that contains any of the following:

 

[pkt77242]

What is "funny" is watching liberals obsessively defend Islam, the least liberal idealogy imaginable, in order to get at Christians. It's to the point where European nations are literally hiding crime statistics in order to protect their political orthodoxy.

And it makes perfect sense to privilege the long-held customs and attitudes of the overwhleming majority over the customs and attitudes of a very, very small minority. Every country and every institution in the world does it in countless ways.

And you wonder why some Liberals have an issue with Christianity. Just read your second paragraph again.

 

[Ndaccountant]

So this case looks kind of similar. It ended with a consent decree, so it doesn't have much value in terms of setting precedent, but if I had to guess some sort of deal like this will resolve this one too.

Relevant part:

That's strange....:makeadeal

Let me back it up a bit, as there is more to "their side" of the story.

1) - They met with local Muslim leaders to asses the situation and to come back with reasonable solutions for employees
2) - The current practice of taking unscheduled breaks was causing both morale issues and efficiency issues
3) - Based on the two notes above, the company offered the employees the chance to create a new shift where they could work without needing to break for prayer and/or create specific work schedule arrangements where their hours could flex based on prayer needs but not disrupt production.

To me, that sounds as if they are willing to work with them to find a solution. If the employees that are impacted are basically taking a " my way or I am leaving" approach, then I cannot fault Ariens.

 

[pkt77242]

Personally I don't think we have enough information to make an informed decision. Both sides are going to put themselves in the most positive light.

 

[pkt77242]

That's strange....:makeadeal

If that is true that I could get behind the business on this one.

 

[no.1IrishFan]

What is "funny" is watching liberals obsessively defend Islam, the least liberal idealogy imaginable, in order to get at Christians. It's to the point where European nations are literally hiding crime statistics in order to protect their political orthodoxy.

And it makes perfect sense to privilege the long-held customs and attitudes of the overwhleming majority over the customs and attitudes of a very, very small minority. Every country and every institution in the world does it in countless ways.

Youre referring to the #regressiveleft. I've mentioned this sect in other posts. They are an infuriating little bunch of cunts. I don't actually recognize them as liberals. They will quickly hand in their liberal card before criticizing Islam. They're afraid of being called racist, even though, to the best of my knowledge, Islam is not a race.

 

[wizards8507]

Again.... these are prescribed by their religion.

My dad works in a factory that runs 24/7 with four twelve hour shifts. His pattern of days off means he works every other Sunday, every other Christmas, every other Good Friday, etc. If he fasted on Good Friday and refused to work on the Sabbath, he wouldn't be able to do his job. It is what it it is.

The classic example is an NFL referee whose religion won't let him work on Sundays. Just can't do it.

 

[IrishinSyria]

That's strange....:makeadeal

The "make a deal" emoji seems appropriate. The purpose of the "reasonable accommodation" language is to encourage the two parties to work it out in the shadow of the law, rather than in the court system itself. I'd have to know more about the specific proposals to have an opinion on whether one side was being unreasonable, but I imagine the ultimate resolution includes both schedule shifting and accommodations for at least one prayer break.

My only issue is with people (to be clear, not you) who are saying the Muslim employees have no right to a prayer break, when it is clear that this is the exact sort of thing the law contemplates. It's a balancing between hardships for the company vs right to worship for the employee. It's fine to believe the extreme libertarian position that religion shouldn't be protected in the workplace, but that's clearly not the law.

 

[Ndaccountant]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">A letter from Dan Ariens in response to <a href="https://twitter.com/WBAY">@WBAY</a> article: <a href="https://t.co/BFmZQV9drc">https://t.co/BFmZQV9drc</a> <a href="https://t.co/eQjGwE8zI6">pic.twitter.com/eQjGwE8zI6</a></p>— Ariens Company (@Ariens) <a href="https://twitter.com/Ariens/status/688481483347116033">January 16, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Irish YJ]

My dad works in a factory that runs 24/7 with four twelve hour shifts. His pattern of days off means he works every other Sunday, every other Christmas, every other Good Friday, etc. If he fasted on Good Friday and refused to work on the Sabbath, he wouldn't be able to do his job. It is what it it is.

The classic example is an NFL referee whose religion won't let him work on Sundays. Just can't do it.

When I was in college in the early 90s, I worked for AT&T as an operator. Great job, great pay, no flexibility. Two 15 minute breaks, and a 30 minute lunch. Had to turn the light on if you went to the restroom, and wait for the light to go on before you went.... Sat side by side with several Muslim friends. They did not have a problem with AT&T's process and requirements.... Mid 90s worked in a call center, with pretty much the same inflexibility. No problems there either.

IMO, companies do not have a duty to go out of their way to appease all religions. So long as they treat everyone the same, I have no problem with this. Like separation of Church and State, Church and business don't have to be intertwined either.

My Muslim friends (very close to 3) back in the 90s were just happy to be here, loved the opportunity to get a US education, and respected the US culture. The only thing some of them struggled with was their attitude about and towards women. Outside of that, they did not feel the need to push for this, or complain about that. These days it seems everyone feels entitled to transform the US into something more aligned with the country or culture they left or took flight from.

 

[Irish YJ]

The "make a deal" emoji seems appropriate. The purpose of the "reasonable accommodation" language is to encourage the two parties to work it out in the shadow of the law, rather than in the court system itself. I'd have to know more about the specific proposals to have an opinion on whether one side was being unreasonable, but I imagine the ultimate resolution includes both schedule shifting and accommodations for at least one prayer break.

My only issue is with people (to be clear, not you) who are saying the Muslim employees have no right to a prayer break, when it is clear that this is the exact sort of thing the law contemplates. It's a balancing between hardships for the company vs right to worship for the employee. It's fine to believe the extreme libertarian position that religion shouldn't be protected in the workplace, but that's clearly not the law.

Protected vs entitled are very different things.

 

[RDU Irish]

All I am doing is trying to have a discussion. Bring up different perspectives... instead of "these guys fucking suck....". I mean this is as applicable as anything Christians have come up with this pas few years as to how oppressed they are and how their religious freedoms are being imposed upon. Funny how when its Muslims who are in the minority it becomes, "these guys fucking suck. They should serve me a pork sandwich for every minute i have to watch their station."


I fucking give up..... screw this shit.....

Thought I was being trolled an ended up trolling you. Classic. Tried to rep you but said I have to spread it around. Love you man.

I think many of these rituals are outdated and driven by people trying to control others. Just like the Catholic Church has abused its position of authority for centuries. How many Catholic rituals are a function of political expediency? I mean, Christmas is on Dec 25th to mesh up with other religions (targeting the winter solstice) not the actual birthday of Jesus. If that is up for manipulation then tell me pretty much everything in every religion isn't up for a little bit of artistic liberty.