2016 Presidential Horse Race

2016 Presidential Horse Race


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IrishLax

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Did you guys see that the Washington Post drew a cartoon depicting Cruz's children as dancing monkeys?
 

Hammer Of The Gods

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Haven't heard a peep on here about it, but I've heard the word "schlong" thrown around a few times. Wonder why.

Speaking of "schlong" and Hilary. Is there really any doubt why Bill Clinton is a notorious womanizer? that women makes my skin crawl. I wouldn't touch her with my worst enemy's *ick
 
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Buster Bluth

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Speaking of "schlong" and Hilary. Is there really any doubt why Bill Clinton is a notorious womanizer? that women makes my skin crawl. I wouldn't touch her with my worst enemy's *ick
Bill Clinton is worse than a womanizer, he's a rapist according to many.
 
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Buster Bluth

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Hillary Clinton tweet:
Every survivor of sexual assault deserves to be heard, believed, and supported. hrc.io/SexualAssault
8:09pm - 22 Nov 15
*unless they worked in DC or Arkansas in the 80s and 90s.
 

GoIrish41

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Speaking of "schlong" and Hilary. Is there really any doubt why Bill Clinton is a notorious womanizer? that women makes my skin crawl. I wouldn't touch her with my worst enemy's *ick

Are there other 70+ year old women that you would like to sex up?
 

Hammer Of The Gods

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Are there other 70+ year old women that you would like to sex up?

I'd probably drop the hammer on Goldie Hawn, she's gotta be around 70? But hilary was unbearable to me in 1996 when I first heard the cackle...god she gives me the shivers, disgusting.
 

IrishLax

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">You have families out there paying 6, 8, 10 percent on student debt but you can refinance your homes at 3 percent. What sense is that?</p>— Bernie Sanders (@SenSanders) <a href="https://twitter.com/SenSanders/status/680789930482778113">December 26, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

LOL. This is a Trump-level tweet.

Interested to see if anyone on here is as ignorant as Bernie Sanders, but I doubt it.
 
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Cackalacky

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">You have families out there paying 6, 8, 10 percent on student debt but you can refinance your homes at 3 percent. What sense is that?</p>— Bernie Sanders (@SenSanders) <a href="https://twitter.com/SenSanders/status/680789930482778113">December 26, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

LOL. This is a Trump-level tweet.

Interested to see if anyone on here is as ignorant as Bernie Sanders, but I doubt it.

That is not a great tweet.
 

BleedBlueGold

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I'm not sure I follow. What is he trying to say w/ that?

Pretty sure I consolidated and refi'ed my student loans at lower rates when I graduated. I refi'ed my house a couple years later for rates just as low. What's the point here?
 
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IrishLax

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Personally, I don't really care if that's what he's obliquely referring to. He intentionally and directly contrasted home loans and student loans... which is just devoid of basic knowledge of the core tenets of personal finance.

The reason why you can refinance your house for 3% is because it's a secured loan. The reason why student loans are somewhere around the Prime, is that they are unsecured loans. They are completely and utterly different animals... you don't pay your mortgage, the bank gets your house. You don't pay your student loans, the lender is not directly entitled to any specific piece of capital.

Sanders posting that is either 1) proof of idiocy 2) pandering to people who don't understand economics/finance. Like I said... Trump level tweet.
 

Whiskeyjack

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I'm not sure I follow. What is he trying to say w/ that?

Pretty sure I consolidated and refi'ed my student loans at lower rates when I graduated. I refi'ed my house a couple years later for rates just as low. What's the point here?

Mortgage rates are secured by the home being purchased, so those rates are typically lower than student loans, which are unsecured. Bernie's tweet seems to indicate that he doesn't understand how risk affects interest rates.


That article doesn't really make Bernie's tweet look any better. If anything, it extends the ignorance apparent in Bernie's tweet to a lot of other Democrats. Having the Feds decree that "student loans shall bear interest of X% per annum" will only exacerbate the underlying problems.
 

woolybug25

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I would t call it "Trump Level". He didn't say anything racist, anything about genitalia, or even menstruation...
 

phgreek

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Personally, I don't really care if that's what he's obliquely referring to. He intentionally and directly contrasted home loans and student loans... which is just devoid of basic knowledge of the core tenets of personal finance.

The reason why you can refinance your house for 3% is because it's a secured loan. The reason why student loans are somewhere around the Prime, is that they are unsecured loans. They are completely and utterly different animals... you don't pay your mortgage, the bank gets your house. You don't pay your student loans, the lender is not directly entitled to any specific piece of capital.

Sanders posting that is either 1) proof of idiocy 2) pandering to people who don't understand economics/finance. Like I said... Trump level tweet.

I don't disagree at all with what you are saying...the thing that frustrates me about "Bern" is he avoids taking on Hillary Clinton on the things we all know would cripple her and actually give him a fighting chance...and as a result he fills the air with this kind of thing, that sooner or later will be a gaff...and with all due respect to him...this was a gaff.

I don't really take him seriously because he doesn't take himself seriously (nothing to do with policy). If he did, the debate stage would be a bit less congenial, and more about what she did and didn't do. Does he think he is the right person for the job or not? Thus far the image I get is, "I am if she isn't". I get the acceptance of a role when it is decided...but ole Bern seems to be ok with Next Man In before camp is even over...and that makes me not take him seriously.
 

Whiskeyjack

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I don't disagree at all with what you are saying...the thing that frustrates me about "Bern" is he avoids taking on Hillary Clinton on the things we all know would cripple her and actually give him a fighting chance...and as a result he fills the air with this kind of thing, that sooner or later will be a gaff...and with all due respect to him...this was a gaff.

I can't find a link right now, but there have been multiple news stories about how her rival candidates are afraid to go after Hillary directly because: (1) her candidacy seems inevitable; and (2) they don't want to burn any bridges.

Very sad state of affairs for our republic.
 

wizards8507

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That article doesn't really make Bernie's tweet look any better. If anything, it extends the ignorance apparent in Bernie's tweet to a lot of other Democrats. Having the Feds decree that "student loans shall bear interest of X% per annum" will only exacerbate the underlying problems.
Yup. Below-market student loan rates drive up the cost of education because they artificially inflate demand. A teenager with no income, no assets, and no credit history should probably be paying 20%+ to adequately compensate lenders for their risk.

I can't find a link right now, but there have been multiple news stories about how her rival candidates are afraid to go after Hillary directly because: (1) her candidacy seems inevitable; and (2) they don't want to burn any bridges.

Very sad state of affairs for our republic.
Sanders is 74 years old. What bridges could he possibly burn that would matter to him?
 

Whiskeyjack

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Sanders is 74 years old. What bridges could he possibly burn that would matter to him?

He's a professional politician, and the Clintons are the most powerful dynast in his party. He may be hoping for a position in her cabinet, or a cushy retirement working for the Clinton Foundation. Who knows? But it's pretty much inarguable that, despite Hillary's serious flaws, no one in her party is willing to attack her for it.
 

IrishJayhawk

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phgreek

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So a conservative website reports that a conservative watchdog group headed by a former George W. Bush appointee and republican candidate for both Iowa treasurer and US Senate thinks that Hillary Clinton is corrupt.

I'm also totally shocked.

so are you saying the things they cited about her behavior are inaccurate...

because I can see where you might think they overlooked some conservatives to make her look worse...I get that.

What I can't understand is ignoring what they put in front of you specifically related to her conduct.
 

Whiskeyjack

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Following up on the yesterday's discussion regarding Bernie's tweet, here's an article from Bloomberg View's Megan McArdle titled "Bernienomics 101":

The day after Christmas, Bernie Sanders asked a question on Twitter: “You have families out there paying 6, 8, 10 percent on student debt but you can refinance your homes at 3 percent. What sense is that?”

Finance types may snicker. But I’ve seen this question asked fairly often, and it seems worth answering, respectfully, for people whose expertise and interest lie outside the realm of economics.

The short answer is: “Loans are not priced in real life the way they are in Sunday School stories.” In a Sunday School story, the cheapest loans would go to the nicest people with the noblest use for the money: single mothers who need money to buy their kids a Christmas present, say.

That’s splendid for the recipient. But what about the lender? Let’s say you had $150 that you really needed to have at the end of the month, say to pay your rent. Would you want to lend it to the single mother whose income is stretched so tight that she needs to borrow money for Christmas presents, or would you want to lend it to some heartless leech of a securities litigator with an 800 credit rating who happens to have left his wallet at home? C’mon. You know the answer; you just don’t want to say it. If you really need the money -- if you cannot afford to turn your loan into a gift -- then you lend it to the better credit risk with the higher income, not the person who may find themselves too short to pay you when the loan comes due.

In aggregate, most of the money in your savings account is loaned out using this cold calculus, and unless you could afford to have that contents of that account suddenly vanish, you want it to be. That’s why poor people, on top of all the other unfairness heaped upon them, pay higher interest rates. And that is why secured loans, like mortgages, get lower interest rates than unsecured loans, like credit card balances and student loans.

Student loans are two-for-one in terms of risk: They are frequently made to people with no income, no credit history, and somewhat imperfect prospects; and they carry no guarantee of payment other than the borrower’s signature. If someone fails to pay their auto loan, you can take their car away. This ensures repayment in two ways: first, you can auction the car and recover some of the money that you lent out; and second, people need their car, and will scrimp on other things in order to keep it from losing it. The immediate personal costs of failing to pay your student loans, on the other hand, are pretty minimal, and people are going to take that into account when they decide whether to pay you or the auto finance company. That’s why the government has to guarantee these loans; the low-fixed-rate, take-any-course-of-study-you-want-at-any-accredited-institution, interest-deferred-in-school is probably not a financial product that would exist in the wild.

Secured loans have thus always carried lower interest rates than unsecured loans, and will do so until the heat death of the universe renders moot such questions.

Now, Sanders may actually be asking a deeper question: How can society make it easier to get a home than to get the priceless boon of an education? If that is the answer that the cold math of the market gives us, then maybe we need some alternative to the market, such as, I dunno, socialism? Or at least endorsing Elizabeth Warren’s scheme to lower the subsidized rates on loans?

Fair question, to which we may pose several fair answers.

The first is that government-subsidized student loans seem like a fairly stupid idea that may well have done students no good at all, driving up tuition and thereby paying for the swelling level of college amenities, the swelling ranks of for-profit colleges of dubious value, and the swelling number of administrators at our nation’s institutions of higher learning. That's not a sterling argument for further well-meaning government intervention in the sector.

The second is to point out that while it is cheaper to pay a mortgage, it is not easier to get one. They’re very sticky about ensuring that you repay them. Most college students could not make it through the amount of underwriting that goes into writing a typical mortgage these days.

And the third is that unless we are going to go pretty far in the socialist direction, we’re stuck with prices as the main way to allocate economic activity. As long as we have prices, the government will have a budget. And reducing the interest rate on loans with a high delinquency rate compared to other loans means that we will have less money to do something else. Giving people free tuition will also mean that the government will have less money to do something else -- a lot less money. Sanders tries to deal with this problem by conjuring hundreds of billions worth of imaginary tax revenue out of thin air, but alas, the actual president will have to find real money, taken from some other use. Is subsidizing the folks who are going to end up as the best-off members of society really what we would choose to use that money for?

More people require shelter than college diplomas. More Americans own homes than a sheepskin on the wall. If we’re going to be subsidizing anything, why choose the needs of the few over the many?
 

GoIrish41

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Following up on the yesterday's discussion regarding Bernie's tweet, here's an article from Bloomberg View's Megan McArdle titled "Bernienomics 101":

I share Bernie's opinion that quality education should be available to all. A growing portion of the population is priced out of the educational market. My daughter is attending the same college in Pennsylvania that I attended 30 years ago. I can hardly recognize this place where I spent 4 years of my life because very few of the buildings today were there when I attended. The campus has expanded dramatically. The facilities have become more grand and luxurious. And the price of admission is six or seven times greater than when a young fresh-faced GoIrish41 roamed the once intimate campus. We have lost our way in higher education when we price people out of the market.

On our current trajectory, the only people who will be able to afford to go to college are the children of the wealthy. This, of course, will leave a vast portion of the society increasingly ill prepared for the jobs that would provide opportunities for economic pathways to improved lives. And the cycle continues.

Bernie things this cycle is unfair, and I agree with him. But more than that, he believes that it is a harmful direction for the country. It contributes to lower wages at the bottom portion of our population, set by those who have had the great fortune of having wealthy parents. I've seen the argument made many times in the politics threads of IE that people should work harder, be smarter and have more forethought into the "choices" they make as parents and as young people to ensure future prosperity. What happens when those choices disappear? Are we prepared for a perminent class system in this country, in which no matter how hard someone works, no matter how solid their grades, no matter how prudent their decisions, there just isn't any chance of success? Bernie believes that is where this country is headed. The sentiment is echoed in proposed policiies throughout his campaign -- income inequality, worker co-operatives, growing trade unions, raising the minimum wage, health care as a right, tax reform, and trade policies that benefit workers instead of just executives.

It is mildly insulting for this author and others to suggest that Bernie and his supporters are too economically illiterate to understand the difference between secured and unsecured loans and the lender risk inherent in each. I think it is evident that he is looking at this from a broader point of view. He believes -- and I agree -- that if we continue to marginalize the great majority only to benefit the few, that what we lose is the incentive that fuels the American Dream.

He believes that great investments are required to achieve great benefits for all, and he believes that taxes on market speculators is a good way to pay for it, because ya know, fuck those guys who make money hand over fist doing absolutely nothing productive for the country. I also agree with him there.

Bernie believes that America is best when we are all rowing in the same direction instead of the great majority just treading water until we sink from exhaustion. He believes in leveling the playing field and that would certainly come at a cost. Asside from the financial cost, expanding the availabilty of quality higher education to the masses will surely cause those who have had all the advantages in the rigged game to recoil at the prosect of making such an investment. That is the whole point of his campaign, in my estimation. It is high time that someone start to put forth policy ideas that actually benefit everyday citizens instead of feeding the distructive status quo. Maybe Bernie isn't the answer, but maybe he will be able to wake enough of us up that we will continue to look for ways to expand opportunities of all Americans instead of just a few.

All that said, I don't think he was suggesting that college loans and mortgages are the same. I think he was suggesting that if the will is there to provide opportunities we, as a nation, can provide these opportunities with or without involvement of for-profit financial institutions.
 
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connor_in

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Martin O'Malley event in Iowa draws one attendee: <a href="https://t.co/iLHGi7mwVN">https://t.co/iLHGi7mwVN</a> <a href="https://t.co/tYvySyNpvk">pic.twitter.com/tYvySyNpvk</a></p>— The Hill (@thehill) <a href="https://twitter.com/thehill/status/681898736554000387">December 29, 2015</a></blockquote>
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wizards8507

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BS. My Notre Dame roommate came from a Big Oil family in Texas. I came from a manufacturing family in Rhode Island. He and I got the exact same education. The difference? His family wrote a $50,000 check every year. Of the five-or-so schools I got into, none of them offered financial aid packages that my family would have been unable to afford. Some of these were merit-based programs and others were need-based. There are absolutely no competent college seniors who aren't going to college because they can't afford it. Not every family can afford every school, but every family can afford some school through financial aid. Nobody actually pays "list price" for tuition unless they can afford it.

You put way too much faith in Bernie Sanders' supporters. Most of them absolutely are economically illiterate. So are Trump supporters, Clinton supporters, Cruz supporters, etc.
 

GoIrish41

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BS. My Notre Dame roommate came from a Big Oil family in Texas. I came from a manufacturing family in Rhode Island. He and I got the exact same education. The difference? His family wrote a $50,000 check every year. Of the five-or-so schools I got into, none of them offered financial aid packages that my family would have been unable to afford. Some of these were merit-based programs and others were need-based. There are absolutely no competent college seniors who aren't going to college because they can't afford it. Not every family can afford every school, but every family can afford some school through financial aid. Nobody actually pays "list price" for tuition unless they can afford it.

You put way too much faith in Bernie Sanders' supporters. Most of them absolutely are economically illiterate. So are Trump supporters, Clinton supporters, Cruz supporters, etc.

You sure about this? I think you could not be more incorrect.
 

IrishLax

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All that said, I don't think he was suggesting that college loans and mortgages are the same. I think he was suggesting that if the will is there to provide opportunities we, as a nation, can provide these opportunities with or without involvement of for-profit financial institutions.

So let's say that is the case. Let's give Bernie every benefit of the doubt that we can... which, to me, is garbage because if the above is the point he was trying to make then there were 1000 different/better/more clear ways to say it. But let's assume he/the campaign worker that wrote the tweet aren't idiots, and that his point was something more philosophical.

Let's look at how he wants to pay for college: Bernie Sanders issues bill to make 4-year colleges tuition-free | USA TODAY College

The tax burden would all fall exclusively on Wall Street per his plan. Who here is more knowledgeable about the effects of such a tax?
 

Whiskeyjack

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I share Bernie's opinion that quality education should be available to all.

Then say, "I'd like to socialize post-secondary education, and here's how I propose to pay for it."

A growing portion of the population is priced out of the educational market. My daughter is attending the same college in Pennsylvania that I attended 30 years ago. I can hardly recognize this place where I spent 4 years of my life because very few of the buildings today were there when I attended. The campus has expanded dramatically. The facilities have become more grand and luxurious. And the price of admission is six or seven times greater than when a young fresh-faced GoIrish41 roamed the once intimate campus. We have lost our way in higher education when we price people out of the market.

I don't disagree that this is a problem. But the Progressive knee-jerk reaction to propose a Federal policy to "fix" it is a problem. Because there's a solid case to be made that Federal subsidies are the primary driver behind tuition inflation, and not evil banks pricing hard-working poor people off the golden road to upward mobility.

On our current trajectory, the only people who will be able to afford to go to college are the children of the wealthy. This, of course, will leave a vast portion of the society increasingly ill prepared for the jobs that would provide opportunities for economic pathways to improved lives. And the cycle continues.

Is an economy in which a 4-year degree is required for upward mobility sustainable in the long term? I'd argue that points to problems inherent to the liberal political economy, and not to a lack of regulation regarding student loans.

All that said, I don't think he was suggesting that college loans and mortgages are the same. I think he was suggesting that if the will is there to provide opportunities we, as a nation, can provide these opportunities with or without involvement of for-profit financial institutions.

You're making an awful lot of charitable assumptions about that tweet. Do note that I find Bernie vastly preferable to Hillary, and hope he is the Democratic nominee. But on a fair reading, I don't see how the tweet in question can be interpreted as anything other than: (1) laughable financial ignorance; or (2) shameless pandering.
 
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