All Things Star Wars Thread (Spoilers)

[Cackalacky]

Because it makes no sense. It puts a restriction on the storytelling for no good reason.

Wouldn't it be awesome to see a Sith temple with for instance Kylo Ren teaching a group of young Sith how to harness fear and anger? Nope rule of two. What if both the master and apprentice are wiped out in one battle? Then the Sith are completely gone because for some reason there can only be two. I would love to see a war between Jedi and Sith. A nice big climactic battle, but we will never see that because there can't be more than 2 Sith for some reason. The Jedi numbers are limitless, so you know two Sith will never be able to actually defeat a large number of Jedi. Also the Jedi never have to worry about the number of Sith growing and gaining power. Nop there will always just be 2 for no reason.

They are setting themselves up for failure. Not only is it unnecessarily risky for the Sith to limit their own numbers to two, from a personality perspective makes no sense for people that are extremely power hungry. Why wouldn't a Sith lord want to grow his number of disciples as high as possible? They should be organized like the Jedi. Have one emperor, then a few Sith Lords for a council, and then as many regular Siths as they want.

Really the big issue is predictability. The Sith Lord will eventually be killed by a his apprentice that had secretly taken on their own apprentice. Boring blah storytelling that you can see coming. All thanks to the stupid rule of two.

That is the way of the Sith though. It exists to maximize the power of the individual while at the barest of minimums tolerating another to carry it on after they defeat you. Its the ultimate setup. Its all consuming, individualistic, greedy and all powerful. Anything more than that dilutes the power of the Sith.

The Sith Lords know their apprentices will be out to learn all they can and then defeat them in the end if they can. If they can't then the Lord find another apprentice.

 

[wizards8507]

Because it makes no sense. It puts a restriction on the storytelling for no good reason.

Wouldn't it be awesome to see a Sith temple with for instance Kylo Ren teaching a group of young Sith how to harness fear and anger? Nope rule of two. What if both the master and apprentice are wiped out in one battle? Then the Sith are completely gone because for some reason there can only be two. I would love to see a war between Jedi and Sith. A nice big climactic battle, but we will never see that because there can't be more than 2 Sith for some reason. The Jedi numbers are limitless, so you know two Sith will never be able to actually defeat a large number of Jedi. Also the Jedi never have to worry about the number of Sith growing and gaining power. Nop there will always just be 2 for no reason.

They are setting themselves up for failure. Not only is it unnecessarily risky for the Sith to limit their own numbers to two, from a personality perspective makes no sense for people that are extremely power hungry. Why wouldn't a Sith lord want to grow his number of disciples as high as possible? They should be organized like the Jedi. Have one emperor, then a few Sith Lords for a council, and then as many regular Siths as they want.

Really the big issue is predictability. The Sith Lord will eventually be killed by a his apprentice that had secretly taken on their own apprentice. Boring blah storytelling that you can see coming. All thanks to the stupid rule of two.

What you want is The Old Republic era. Loads of Jedi and Sith running around. I'm largely with you in that I think an Old Republic trilogy would be freaking amazing. But the Force is an "ancient religion" in the current timeline. Both Jedi and Sith have been largely driven to extinction.

 

[IrishLax]

Because it makes no sense. It puts a restriction on the storytelling for no good reason.

Wouldn't it be awesome to see a Sith temple with for instance Kylo Ren teaching a group of young Sith how to harness fear and anger? Nope rule of two. What if both the master and apprentice are wiped out in one battle? Then the Sith are completely gone because for some reason there can only be two. I would love to see a war between Jedi and Sith. A nice big climactic battle, but we will never see that because there can't be more than 2 Sith for some reason. The Jedi numbers are limitless, so you know two Sith will never be able to actually defeat a large number of Jedi. Also the Jedi never have to worry about the number of Sith growing and gaining power. Nop there will always just be 2 for no reason.

They are setting themselves up for failure. Not only is it unnecessarily risky for the Sith to limit their own numbers to two, from a personality perspective makes no sense for people that are extremely power hungry. Why wouldn't a Sith lord want to grow his number of disciples as high as possible? They should be organized like the Jedi. Have one emperor, then a few Sith Lords for a council, and then as many regular Siths as they want.

Really the big issue is predictability. The Sith Lord will eventually be killed by a his apprentice that had secretly taken on their own apprentice. Boring blah storytelling that you can see coming. All thanks to the stupid rule of two.

FWIW, per the stuff that is now non-cannon but w/e it used to be tons of Sith. But when you have too many Sith, you have the same problem as having too many Bama fans together. They start destroying themselves.

So Rule of Two makes sense in terms of a "what we're doing isn't working, so let's try something else"... and then it actually worked. The Sith won by conspiring in secret, so it's hard to say it's the "dumbest thing"... and moreover, in EU they start moving away from Rule of Two even stating that Palpatine had given up on it because he saw its mission as completed and envisioned himself in charge forever as the top dog with a bunch of dark side people serving him.

Given the fact that Palpatine moved away from Rule of Two, that means that from episode IV onward its obsolete... so a lot of the stuff you're saying it might prohibit won't necessarily be prohibited in the coming movies.

 

[wizards8507]

FWIW, per the stuff that is now non-cannon but w/e it used to be tons of Sith. But when you have too many Sith, you have the same problem as having too many Bama fans together. They start destroying themselves.

So Rule of Two makes sense in terms of a "what we're doing isn't working, so let's try something else"... and then it actually worked. The Sith one by conspiring in secret. so it's hard to say it's the "dumbest thing"... and moreover, in EU they start moving away from Rule of Two even stating that Palpatine had given up on it because he saw its mission as completed and envisioned himself in charge forever as the top dog with a bunch of dark side people serving him.

Given the fact that Palpatine moved away from Rule of Two, that means that from episode IV onward its obsolete... so a lot of the stuff you're saying it might prohibit won't necessarily be prohibited in the coming movies.

The Empire also proved that you don't need a bunch of lightsaber-wielding force users to take over the entire galaxy. Faceless stormtroopers and government bureaucracy will do just fine.

 

[Domina Nostra]

That is the way of the Sith though. It exists to maximize the power of the individual while at the barest of minimums tolerating another to carry it on after they defeat you. Its the ultimate setup. Its all consuming, individualistic, greedy and all powerful. Anything more than that dilutes the power of the Sith.

The Sith Lords know their apprentices will be out to learn all they can and then defeat them in the end if they can. If they can't then the Lord find another apprentice.

Exactly.

 

[GATTACA!]

What you want is The Old Republic era. Loads of Jedi and Sith running around. I'm largely with you in that I think an Old Republic trilogy would be freaking amazing. But the Force is an "ancient religion" in the current timeline. Both Jedi and Sith have been largely driven to extinction.

Yeah I mean from a story perspective I can understand there only being two, and that their numbers are way down along with the Jedi. I also get why it works best for the Sith to only have two at one time, I just hate that is some sort of artificial rule. I just think that putting a limit on the number there can be is dumb in a storytelling sense. Like first what happens if Snoke turns out to be a Sith Lord and Kylo is a sith and Snoke decides to take an additional apprentice? Nothing. Nothing is going to happen to them, one of them isn't going to magically die because there can only be two, so why call it a rule? It just takes a lot of the intrigue and mystery out of the future of the story if you know no matter what there will only be two at any one time.

 

[wizards8507]

Yeah I mean from a story perspective I can understand there only being two, and that their numbers are way down along with the Jedi. I also get why it works best for the Sith to only have two at one time, I just hate that is some sort of artificial rule. I just think that putting a limit on the number there can be is dumb in a storytelling sense. Like first what happens if Snoke turns out to be a Sith Lord and Kylo is a sith and Snoke decides to take an additional apprentice? Nothing. Nothing is going to happen to them, one of them isn't going to magically die because there can only be two, so why call it a rule? It just takes a lot of the intrigue and mystery out of the future of the story if you know no matter what there will only be two at any one time.

Then one of the three will battle another one and one of them will die. It always happens.

 

[GATTACA!]

Then one of the three will battle another one and one of them will die. It always happens.

And that's cool, but I wish there was the option for them not to fight and Snoke to just have two apprentices. Even if they do ultimately fight its way more interesting if it isn't already predetermined that they are going to. Maybe i'm not explaining what i mean properly. I just hate having predetermined things in movies. That's why prequels often suck, because you know what's going to happen. You know how things have to end.

 

[greyhammer90]

Then one of the three will battle another one and one of them will die. It always happens.

Or there will be three dark force users, in which case only the two most powerful are Sith Lords

 

[Cackalacky]

Or there will be three dark force users, in which case only the two most powerful are Sith Lords

Right. Dark Force users exist but cannot claim title of Lord unless they defeat a Lord.

 

[greyhammer90]

Right. Dark Force users exist but cannot claim title of Lord unless they defeat a Lord.

Or are granted the title of apprentice by the current big dog. (Assuming there is only one left, like if the old one gets murdered by his apprentice)

 

[IrishinSyria]

I see people keep saying Rey shouldn't have beaten Kylo Ren at the end of the movie. I don't find it that hard to believe, at least in lightsaber combat. For one, Ren doesn't seem to be an accomplished Sith. He asks Snoke to show him the power of the dark side again during the movie, right? He's still new to this, and he cut his training with Luke short. Is Rey trained with a lightsaber? Maybe not, but if she's Luke's kid maybe she has received some training. If she hasn't, she's at least proficient in combat as she bested Finn pretty easily with her staff and Finn had military training. She's no moisture farmer like Luke in New Hope. She's been on her own in the desert, scraping to survive and fighting to live, she's tough. I agree that Ren should have been the stronger of the two when it comes to the Force, but maybe he was holding back. Maybe he knows Rey is related to him?

All this plus Ren had just caught a bowcaster bolt in the side and was emotionally distraught from having just killed his dad.

 

[IrishinSyria]

Then one of the three will battle another one and one of them will die. It always happens.

There were lots and lots of sith during the old republic era.

 

[wizards8507]

There were lots and lots of sith during the old republic era.

Yes, pre-Bane. But neither the Old Republic nor Bane are canon anymore. All we know in canon is that the Rule of Two exists.

 

[greyhammer90]

Another minor quibble I had with the movie: No way does Han die and Chewy not go with him. Life debt + friendship + cheap death = Wookie in bloodlust mode.

 

[IrishSteelhead]

(Spoilers) Force Awakens Discussion Thread (Spoilers)

(Spoilers) Force Awakens Discussion Thread (Spoilers)

Another minor quibble I had with the movie: No way does Han die and Chewy not go with him. Life debt + friendship + cheap death = Wookie in bloodlust mode.

Easy fix: Han told Chewie, "I'm going down there, if anything happens, you MUST get the girl out alive, she is too important."

But yes, I said earlier Chewie should have had a montage of gruesome kills immediately after Han dies.

 

[Cackalacky]

For reference... most links in Wookieepedia have a tab labeled "CANON" for most topics.

 

[greyhammer90]

Easy fix: Han told Chewie, "I'm going down there, if anything happens, you MUST get the girl out alive, she is too important."

I mean are we just making things up now to have character reactions/motivations make sense?

Not meaning to be harsh to your suggestion, but at that point we could all pretend that Chewy just secretly disliked Han for years and was relieved when he died.

 

[aubeirish]

From what I gathered from the movie (at least It was my impression), Rey is already a skilled fighter beforehand. She survives all these years alone on Jaaku and also every time she uses her stick, she's seems quite skillful.

 

[greyhammer90]

But yes, I said earlier Chewie should have had a montage of gruesome kills immediately after Han dies.

Yeah man. There wouldn't be enough arm sockets in the Galaxy.

 

[wizards8507]

Another minor quibble I had with the movie: No way does Han die and Chewy not go with him. Life debt + friendship + cheap death = Wookie in bloodlust mode.

This is NOT canon, but a civilized wookie doesn't use his paws/claws for violence. To do so is to become a "madclaw," essentially a wookie savage. He's a soldier-smuggler who uses a bowcaster. He's not a berserker.

 

[gkIrish]

Another minor quibble I had with the movie: No way does Han die and Chewy not go with him. Life debt + friendship + cheap death = Wookie in bloodlust mode.

I mentioned earlier that Chewie is probably a goner in the next film. Mostly because he doesn't make a lot of sense without Han.

 

[wizards8507]

I mentioned earlier that Chewie is probably a goner in the next film. Mostly because he doesn't make a lot of sense without Han.

Sure he does. Han to Rey when he offered her a job on the Falcon. "It's too bad... Chewie kind of likes you."

ETA: Chewbacca was born about 200 BBY. The Force Awakens was set in 34 ABY, making him about 234. Wookies live to be ~400.

 

[gkIrish]

Sure he does. Han to Rey when he offered her a job on the Falcon. "It's too bad... Chewie kind of likes you."

I'm not saying he doesn't make sense to the plot. He just won't have the same humor value. Chewie is 75% in the movies for comedic relief.

 

[Domina Nostra]

I mentioned earlier that Chewie is probably a goner in the next film. Mostly because he doesn't make a lot of sense without Han.

No chance. It would literally make the movie unenjoyable. The masses would revolt.

 

[BeauBenken]

No chance. It would literally make the movie unenjoyable. The masses would revolt.

It would not make the movie unenjoyable...

 

[gkIrish]

No chance. It would literally make the movie unenjoyable. The masses would revolt.

I mean they just killed off the #1 most popular character in the entire Star Wars universe and probably top 5 in the history of film and I'm guessing you enjoyed the movie....

 

[GATTACA!]

Another minor quibble I had with the movie: No way does Han die and Chewy not go with him. Life debt + friendship + cheap death = Wookie in bloodlust mode.

I read an article that said like 20 minutes of extra footage was cut from the film. One of the scenes apparently was Chewy going berserk and killing a bunch of dude, ripping an arm off ect. The source said that this scene was taken out of the cantina Maz scene, but I could see their source being wrong and this scene actually being after Han's death. We'll have to see when the blu ray comes out.

 

[Domina Nostra]

I mean they just killed off the #1 most popular character in the entire Star Wars universe and probably top 5 in the history of film and I'm guessing you enjoyed the movie....

Completely different. People get attached to kids and dogs. If you are going to showcase either, you kill them off at your peril (killling of anonymous pets or children, which is different, is still a clear signal that the character is evil and is to be hated).

Wookies, IMHO, fall into that category. People would not handle it well at all. It would come off as gratuitous unless it was extremely dramatic, and they aren't trying to make an Oscar winner, they are trying to win over audiences. Chewie, R2D2, and BB8 are safe.

And, as you probably know, Harrison Ford has been trying to kill off Han Solo since ROJ. He probably made the movie on the condition that Han die.

 

[gkIrish]

Completely different. People get attached to kids and dogs. If you are going to showcase either, you kill them off at your peril (killling of anonymous pets or children, which is different, is still a clear signal that the character is evil and is to be hated).

Wookies fall into that category. They aren't trying to make an Oscar winner, they are trying to win over audiences. Chewie, R2D2, and BB8 are safe.

And, as you probably know, Harrison Ford has been trying to kill off Han Solo since ROJ. He probably made the movie on the condition that Han die.

I don't disagree with any of these statements but your original comment was that the movie would be "unenjoyable" and the masses would "revolt." I don't think that's true at all. People wouldn't be happy about the death itself but the movie could still be very good.