Is Kelly a REALLY good coach?

[Irish Insanity]

Your problem is the blanket sentiment about "those who take issue with fans that think there is room for improvement." It's not that someone believes there's room for improvement, normal people get annoyed with criers and Monday morning types who flail around after losses. There's certainly room for improvement, even if you're Ohio State or Alabama. You don't even have to log into IE to have predicted this crybaby thread would be at the top of the forum. People can't handle losing, they lash out, they cry irrationally. There's also people who logically express a sentiment about reasonable improvement. Step 1: disassociate the two.

Also a blanket "10 loss" means nothing at all. 10 wins with a half dozen key starters out for much of the season with 2 losses on the road to top teams isn't the same thing as 10 losses playing a pansy schedule and no effort by the team. If the rational ppl on this thread do anything constructive it would be to dissuade anyone who just looks some blanket "required wins" per season as if means anything at all.

I've maintained that Kelly isn't really a superlative Xs & Os genius. But he did a great job this year, beyond what could be casually expected of even the best coaches. It would be hard to convince most football observers of that fact.

So there's no room for improving on 10-2? Or his previous to this year average of 8.5 wins per year? And get over the fuckin excuses. There always seems to be one.......or five. By the way, I think this was a successful season and a step in the right direction. Now let's see if we can continue the trend.

 

[Grahambo]

For sure. IMO BK seems to be more of a General Manager than a head coach. I think he needs.to find a solution for Book and Elston. BVG is not going anywhere I think.

I think replacing Booker and Elston is the next step in the coaching carousel for ND. Jeff Quinn to TE? He was an OL coach so at least he could teach them proper blocking. Elston has never impressed me but I thought they gave him head recruiter or whatever the position is? Maybe move him there full time and hire a LB guru?

Again, unless BVG leaves on his own, I don't see anyway BK makes a change there nor do I think its warranted.

EDIT: I'll add that some interesting names on the coaching block like Mike London, Scott Schaefer, Paul Rhoads who could be candidates to be added to the defensive staff should BK move on from Mike Elston.

 

[Irish Insanity]

Kelly is an offensive guy. With the exception of the now only occasional questionable play call, that's not our problem. Defense is. There is more to head coaching than just the players. Let's hope we can get the staff ironed out.

 

[phillyirish]

Has Brian Kelly ever won a big game at ND? I get that he doesn't lose that often but I feel like we fail to deliver in every single "the nation is watching" game. 2012 Oklahoma would be the closest, unless I'm forgetting something.

Really depends what you mean by "big game". Half of our games are on prime time as game of the week, think like Temple this year or USC on last game of '12

But I'm thinking you mean against a top 15 team with a solid program tradition where only wins such as Oklahoma/Stanford in '12 will qualify. Well by those standards you have a number of wins that still can qualify as big wins:

Last year vs #14 Stanford, but they would finish 8-5
2013 vs MSU. they were only ranked 24 but it would be there only loss and they would finish #3
2013 also had wins against 10 win ASU/USC who would finish ranked
2011 against #15 MSU who would finish #10
2010 against top 15 Utah who would finish ranked

Also retrospect plays a lot into what a big game might be. Think this year against Georgia Tech which seemed huge but they ended up shitting the bed, compared to the '13 match up with MSU where is like meh and then you realize that we cost them a shot at the nat'l title.

 

[IrishLax]

Has Brian Kelly ever won a big game at ND? I get that he doesn't lose that often but I feel like we fail to deliver in every single "the nation is watching" game. 2012 Oklahoma would be the closest, unless I'm forgetting something.

You kidding?

 

[koonja]

The fact that Kizer and Prosise proved to be better than the guys they replaced is not a feather in BK's cap. It's a giant question as to why he didn't identify that prior to the injuries.

I don't think Prosise is better than Folston. I love the big play threat, but Folston is a better RB IMO.

 

[NDinL.A.]

The fact that Kizer and Prosise proved to be better than the guys they replaced is not a feather in BK's cap. It's a giant question as to why he didn't identify that prior to the injuries.

So you're saying the following:

1. Kelly doesn't get credit for player development, he actually gets dinged for not playing back-ups instead of starters who earned the job. Got it.

2. Meyer isn't even good enough for you bc he didn't start his 3rd string QB, who went on to win a title.

OR

3. You have a MASSIVE anti-Kelly agenda and at this point you're just throwing shit against the wall and hope it sticks. Because no one who knows a lick about football and has followed the team this year would say what you just said above. You're reaching NDSean territory here.

 

[IrishLion]

It really is unbelievable that Kelly didn't identify Kizer, the guy who struggled through camp according to several reports, as a better option as Zaire much sooner.

Also unbelievable that he didn't identify Prosise and Adams as better than Folston until after injuries.

Give me a fucking break.

 

[IrishinSyria]

Really depends what you mean by "big game". Half of our games are on prime time as game of the week, think like Temple this year or USC on last game of '12

But I'm thinking you mean against a top 15 team with a solid program tradition where only wins such as Oklahoma/Stanford in '12 will qualify. Well by those standards you have a number of wins that still can qualify as big wins:

Last year vs #14 Stanford, but they would finish 8-5
2013 vs MSU. they were only ranked 24 but it would be there only loss and they would finish #3
2013 also had wins against 10 win ASU/USC who would finish ranked
2011 against #15 MSU who would finish #10
2010 against top 15 Utah who would finish ranked

Also retrospect plays a lot into what a big game might be. Think this year against Georgia Tech which seemed huge but they ended up shitting the bed, compared to the '13 match up with MSU where is like meh and then you realize that we cost them a shot at the nat'l title.

This is an example of a good post. Short, uses evidence, considers the argument it's responding to without setting up a straw man, and ultimately convincing. I will aspire to this.

e. I also think that USC in '12 was the biggest win of Kelly's career. Obviously not a #1 v. #2 prize fight like the best games in ND history, but hugely important for the program.

 

[phillyirish]

I'm with ya, I don't know how Kelly put out Zaire with a stat line of 26/40 65% 4 td 428 pass yd and over 100 rush yrds with out a turnover for almost 2 entire games. He should of recognized that his 187.9 Qb rating just wasn't gonna cut. Oh thank the lawd that an injury was able to do what Kelly didn't have the foresight to do and get Zaire off the field.

 

[phillyirish]

This is an example of a good post. Short, uses evidence, considers the argument it's responding to without setting up a straw man, and ultimately convincing. I will aspire to this.

e. I also think that USC in '12 was the biggest win of Kelly's career. Obviously not a #1 v. #2 prize fight like the best games in ND history, but hugely important for the program.

Thanks, funny I was gonna include the USC win in 2010 in my original post. Just the whole "getting over the hump" against them after that mediocre decade where we minus well shouldn't of even been on the field with them. Because of that its really any win against USC that I consider huge and a big win. I'm glad our coach is 4-2 against them in his tenure.

 

[irishfanjho15]

Also very good ranked Utah in 2010. That was a huge win for the Kelly program after losing to Navy and Tulsa prior in the season. Ended up winning out that year.

 

[Booslum31]

I think Kelly is a great coach...we are very lucky to have him.

 

[sharksamardzija8345]

When you think about where the program was when he took over, Coach Kelly is putting on a coaching clinic.

Most of you fickle ladies need to pull your dresses down and quit your whining. This is only our 4th 10+ win season since 2000 and it was done with almost half of the team's starters out and against a very tough schedule. This year will also mark the sixth straight year we have went to a Bowl game. That is something that has not been accomplished since the Holtz era.

Is there room for improvement? Sure - anything can be improved. I guess if you won a $200m lottery jackpot, they could take out less taxes.

As far as BVG and the defense last night, the game plan was a good one. We did not execute and Hogan played out of his mind.

I think we are very fortunate to have what we have. We should work on improving what we have in our coaching ranks through retention and not attrition.

A lot of QB's we play have "out of their mind" games. It's more than a coincidence. The defense allows average guys to look like Dan Marino.

 

[IrishLax]

A lot of QB's we play have "out of their mind" games. It's more than a coincidence. The defense allows average guys to look like Dan Marino.

Which others from this season?

 

[IrishinSyria]

My biggest issue with the coaching last night is that we apparently did nothing to adjust to the fact that Stanford's 4th leading receiver was burning us deep all game. The fact that that dude caught the game winning pass, and that Joe Fracking Schmidt was responsible for him 30 yards deep (and I know it was a zone scheme) blows my freaking mind. I can't even....

 

[sharksamardzija8345]

Which others from this season?

I remember Virginia's QB probably had the best game of his season against us. 300 yards and a couple TD with no picks. Might have had another game like that, Idk.

Can't recall others that immediately come to mind, but I'd be surprised if our defense made any QB have their worst game of the season. It's more of an eye test thing than stats based, I guess. Seeing 80+ yard drives constantly extended by mediocre QB's completing 3rd and 12's is a tad frustrating and causes you think irrationally, perhaps.

Defense has to improve. That's my opinion. You may not share it.

 

[IrishLax]

I remember Virginia's QB probably had the best game of his season against us. 300 yards and a couple TD with no picks. Might have had another game like that, Idk.

Can't recall others that immediately come to mind, but I'd be surprised if our defense made any QB have their worst game of the season. It's more of an eye test thing than stats based, I guess. Seeing 80+ yard drives constantly extended by mediocre QB's completing 3rd and 12's is a tad frustrating and causes you think irrationally, perhaps.

Defense has to improve. That's my opinion. You may not share it.

All I did was ask a straightforward question?

I think Matt Johns had a banner day, and Hogan obviously did. I think that's probably it. Maybe Kessler? Though he was picked twice.

Bigger issue this year (statistically) was big runs.

 

[IrishinSyria]

All I did was ask a straightforward question?

I think Matt Johns had a banner day, and Hogan obviously did. I think that's probably it. Maybe Kessler? Though he was picked twice.

Bigger issue this year (statistically) was big runs.

Kessler's picks were less schematic and more KVR making freak plays, which is I guess what the defense is built for, but which happened way less frequently than we needed it to this year.

 

[Cackalacky]

Not including the Stanford game....According to the DFEI, ND defense had its lowest ranking for Explosive plays given up (#62) and overall efficiency (#50). The rank adjusted for opponent offensive strength has them ranked #40 overall.

DFD (#17), Methodical drives (#21), Value drives (#27), Average yard percentage (#25) all ranked higher than #27.

According to this our defense struggled with explosive plays and getting off the field if drives achieved more than one first down. We saw that a lot. Numerous series where the Defense was good to great followed by one series where explosive plays keep drives alive and result in scores.

Also cfbstats.com has ND allowing a QB rating of around 128 this season, ranking them at #61.

 

[TheSunIsRising]

I remember Virginia's QB probably had the best game of his season against us. 300 yards and a couple TD with no picks. Might have had another game like that, Idk.

Can't recall others that immediately come to mind, but I'd be surprised if our defense made any QB have their worst game of the season. It's more of an eye test thing than stats based, I guess. Seeing 80+ yard drives constantly extended by mediocre QB's completing 3rd and 12's is a tad frustrating and causes you think irrationally, perhaps.

Defense has to improve. That's my opinion. You may not share it.

All I did was ask a straightforward question?

I think Matt Johns had a banner day, and Hogan obviously did. I think that's probably it. Maybe Kessler? Though he was picked twice.

Bigger issue this year (statistically) was big runs.

Lax is basically right. Using ESPN's QBR (yes imperfect, but convenient to find), no QB actually had their best game against ND. Hogan's was his 2nd best (USC was better for him) and for John's ND was his 3rd best). Kessler's ND game was middle of the pack for him. So, a couple of QB's had close to their best games of the year against ND. Fronapfel (Mass) had his 3rd best game against ND


The following QB's had their worst QBR of the season against ND:
Swoopes (Texas)
Thomas (GT)
Watson (Clemson)
Fadule (BC, albeit he only was in 3-4 games)

Wolford (Wake) and Peterman (Pitt) had their 3rd worst games

Again, this is using QBR from ESPN which is kind of subjective, but also probably in fairness is close enough to reality to show that ND's defense had 1/2 the opponents' QBs showing one of their 2 or 3 worst games of the season

 

[Irish#1]

I think Kelly is a great coach...we are very lucky to have him.

Yes we are and Hogan is a much better QB than a lot of people realize. He may not have a rocket launcher for an arm, but he has it between the ears.

 

[KPENN]

The fact that Kizer and Prosise proved to be better than the guys they replaced is not a feather in BK's cap. It's a giant question as to why he didn't identify that prior to the injuries.

Are you ever going to defend this idiocy or no?

 

[wizards8507]

Are you ever going to defend this idiocy or no?

Sure. Everett Golson versus Malik Zaire. Malik Zaire versus Deshone Kizer. Joe Schmidt versus anybody. Tarean Folston versus CJ Prosise. I don't think identifying the best players on the roster is one of Kelly's strong points.

 

[phillyirish]

Sure. Everett Golson versus Malik Zaire. Malik Zaire versus Deshone Kizer. Joe Schmidt versus anybody. Tarean Folston versus CJ Prosise. I don't think identifying the best players on the roster is one of Kelly's strong points.

C'mon, Zaire was a freshmen last year. No way he was gonna get the over a guy who started a full year and took us to a title game. Remember Golson before he went through that turnover funk, remember his first 6-7 games last year? He was a flag away from leaving the FSU game on top the Heismen race.

Prosise over Folston for real?? He was a freakin receiver the past 2 years. You going to put him over a guy who ran for 900 yards last year?? And lets be honest, I think CJ struck some lighting falling into a perfect system for his skill set, that is to find a whole open created by the dominant oline the size of your ma's vagina and just sprinting full speed through it to the endzone. How do you know Foslton couldn't have done better, you see with a natural back like Adams, even a Freshemn could perform comparativley (arguably better).

Kizer over Zaire?? See paragraph one. Freshmen. Zaire was killing it befroe he got injured. More natural runner that suits the read. Enough.

Joe Schmidt for real????? He was only 78 missed tackles from being average. Know I get it he sucks. Pointing him out has become cliche at this point. Again he sucks. But lets blame the head coach on that instead of the D Cordinator.

 

[Irish#1]

Sure. Everett Golson versus Malik Zaire. Malik Zaire versus Deshone Kizer. Joe Schmidt versus anybody. Tarean Folston versus CJ Prosise. I don't think identifying the best players on the roster is one of Kelly's strong points.

And you knew Kizer should have been the starter like last year, right? There are so many things we are not privy to or see that the staff does. Montana languished as the third string QB until injuries to the #1 and #2 QB's gave him an opportunity.

 

[wizards8507]

And you knew Kizer should have been the starter like last year, right? There are so many things we are not privy to or see that the staff does. Montana languished as the third string QB until injuries to the #1 and #2 QB's gave him an opportunity.

I'm not criticizing Kelly on this point. The conversation started simply because I declined to praise him as profusely as others have for all of the injury management.

 

[Cackalacky]

 

[NDinL.A.]

I'm not criticizing Kelly on this point. The conversation started simply because I declined to praise him as profusely as others have for all of the injury management.

That is such BS and you know it. Declining to "praise him profusely" would be to basically shut the **** up...you said he deserved to be questioned for not starting Kizer over Zaire (the guy you've been blowing up since he was a freshman) and Prosise over Folston, which is beyond laughable for anyone who has followed this team for even a minute (even more laughable bc you've been screaming that Zaire should be starting since he was a true freshman...you would have been KILLING Kelly had he started Kizer over Zaire.) How is that 'not criticizing Kelly"'???

KPenn was spot on. There's a reason you ignored my response bc you had no possible reply; your post above shows exactly that.

 

[kmoose]

Sure. Everett Golson versus Malik Zaire. Malik Zaire versus Deshone Kizer. Joe Schmidt versus anybody. Tarean Folston versus CJ Prosise. I don't think identifying the best players on the roster is one of Kelly's strong points.

I know what you mean............. Tom Brady versus Drew Bledsoe? Bill Belichick obviously can't identify the best players on his team.

And don't even get me started on that Joe Motana versus Steve Young abortion by Bill Walsh!