2016 Presidential Horse Race

[phgreek]

I see it all the time. Here and elsewhere.

I don't. I see a general pattern. People start a discussion, maybe even move into a passionate discussion, and then one of two people come in, and the discussion goes into a death spiral of Venom, condescension, and personal attacks. I've yet to see anyone I'd consider conservative be the catalyst to that...so sorry. I'll look harder.

Edit: also add intentional misrepresentation

 

[woolybug25]

I don't. I see a general pattern. People start a discussion, maybe even move into a passionate discussion, and then one of two people come in, and the discussion goes into a death spiral of Venom, condescension, and personal attacks. I've yet to see anyone I'd consider conservative be the catalyst to that...so sorry. I'll look harder.

I disagree. Phreek... I would like to introduce you to ndgraduate.

 

[Buster Bluth]

I would like to introduce you to ndgraduate.

My eyes! MY EYES!

 

[IrishJayhawk]

I disagree. Phreek... I would like to introduce you to ndgraduate.

Seriously

 

[phgreek]

Seriously

I've seen him express views that may offend people...thats not the same thing.

Intending to attack someone's intellect, or belittle. I'm sorry...I don't see him start things down that road...Seriously.

I'll look harder.

 

[Cackalacky]

So his faith shouldn't matter unless it's the Muslim faith?

Also, you don't know very much about 7th Day Adventist do you?

I just don't understand....His faith can inform his view but not cause him to act on it unless he is muslim. Right... I have made several posts on Ben Carson and his Adventist cult... I mean religion....and I agree.... I don't think very many people here commenting on it have any idea of its core beliefs or dogma at all. Its like trying to debunk creation science.... it takes way more time and effort to try to inform people of what the errors in arguments are than moving the argument forward with full understanding.

Its amazing to me that people have no problem in pointing out the absurdity or hypocrisy of one belief system held by others and painting them with a wide brush (say a minority of Muslims who want to use use violence because they think they are doing the right thing), and refuse to see it others because they are just one of 33,000 denominations of Christianity (say creationists and Adventists who desire and look forward to End Times) but also call abortion clinic doctor murderers and white Christian terrorists "isolated and confused or mislead...".

Its impossible to have a discussion on this matter because invariably everyone's faith and beliefs (and inherent absurdity of some of the beliefs) become game for questioning and inspection and no one wants to play that. I understand and respect their position but I can objectively call it in into question with a clear conscience. People , especially political leaders don't get a pass because of what they believe, because the worst of humanity throughout history still acted on what they believed and they use political power to achieve those ends. So I find the idea of a theocratic in charge of American "democracy" to be a little frightening.

Further they fail to see the larger problem in that modern society has no place for fundamentalism of any denomination in any political office. We have evidence of what religious fundamentalism can do to a society in very short periods of time:

Whether it be subjugating women:

Persecution of minorities (people and religions, particularly Catholics here..) by the majority religious fundamentalists:

Attacking objective truth with whatever propaganda and "tools" are handy:

The obvious irony of calling for banning unpopular speech by political force in the name of religious freedom

Yeah.. I don't get how that is even remotely appealing.

 

[Grahambo]

Its also entirely possible that the presidency isn't truly at the top of his list:

These candidates are getting rich running for president

 

[Buster Bluth]

Its also entirely possible that the presidency isn't truly at the top of his list:

These candidates are getting rich running for president

Bingo.

I think if you actually offered the Presidency to Carson or Huckabee they'd start sprinting down the hall away from it.

 

[Grahambo]

Bingo.

I think if you actually offered the Presidency to Carson or Huckabee they'd start sprinting down the hall away from it.

May be able to add a few more names to it too. Can't blame them though. Can't say I wouldn't do the same thing if I was in the same position. Thats a lot of 'easy' money.

 

[irish4ever]

Corrupt people can be competent...but much more so persuasive. I think Hillary is more persuasive than competent.

Anyone entertaining voting for her...it'll be a lapse in judgement we'll all pay for...so thanks for that.

If it came down to it, who would I vote for ... Hillary or Satan, Hillary or Satan, Hillary of Satan??? Hmmm, equal qualifications .... decisions, decisions

 

[IrishinSyria]

Its also entirely possible that the presidency isn't truly at the top of his list:

These candidates are getting rich running for president

Exactly. Carson and a few other are running the Sarah Palin playbook for getting set for life on the Republican dole.

 

[drake29]

Corrupt people can be competent...but much more so persuasive. I think Hillary is more persuasive than competent.

Anyone entertaining voting for her...it'll be a lapse in judgement we'll all pay for...so thanks for that.

You could literally say the exact same for anyone that would consider voting for Trump, Carson, Rubio, or Cruz.

 

[ND NYC]

If it came down to it, who would I vote for ... Hillary or Satan, Hillary or Satan, Hillary of Satan??? Hmmm, equal qualifications .... decisions, decisions

why must someone always bring up Bama's head coach in these threads?

 

[phgreek]

You could literally say the exact same for anyone that would consider voting for Trump, Carson, Rubio, or Cruz.

they align with my views better...but yea, I am not hoping for any of those. Those would be selecting people not ready for the Job, or not built for the job...not quite the same as selecting someone (Hillary) who by appearances has a resume...but who is as CORRRUUUUPT as they come.

 

[phgreek]

I just don't understand....His faith can inform his view but not cause him to act on it unless he is muslim. Right... I have made several posts on Ben Carson and his Adventist cult... I mean religion....and I agree.... I don't think very many people here commenting on it have any idea of its core beliefs or dogma at all. Its like trying to debunk creation science.... it takes way more time and effort to try to inform people of what the errors in arguments are than moving the argument forward with full understanding.

Its amazing to me that people have no problem in pointing out the absurdity or hypocrisy of one belief system held by others and painting them with a wide brush (say a minority of Muslims who want to use use violence because they think they are doing the right thing), and refuse to see it others because they are just one of 33,000 denominations of Christianity (say creationists and Adventists who desire and look forward to End Times) but also call abortion clinic doctor murderers and white Christian terrorists "isolated and confused or mislead...".

Its impossible to have a discussion on this matter because invariably everyone's faith and beliefs (and inherent absurdity of some of the beliefs) become game for questioning and inspection and no one wants to play that. I understand and respect their position but I can objectively call it in into question with a clear conscience. People , especially political leaders don't get a pass because of what they believe, because the worst of humanity throughout history still acted on what they believed and they use political power to achieve those ends. So I find the idea of a theocratic in charge of American "democracy" to be a little frightening.

Further they fail to see the larger problem in that modern society has no place for fundamentalism of any denomination in any political office. We have evidence of what religious fundamentalism can do to a society in very short periods of time:

Whether it be subjugating women:

Persecution of minorities (people and religions, particularly Catholics here..) by the majority religious fundamentalists:

Attacking objective truth with whatever propaganda and "tools" are handy:

The obvious irony of calling for banning unpopular speech by political force in the name of religious freedom

Yeah.. I don't get how that is even remotely appealing.

I think we missed here...I used an example of sharia which is not just Muslim scripture but rather it generally would result in conduct I can see and evaluate ... I was clearly making a point that I cannot see an equivalent in Ben Carson's life. What has Ben Carson done which makes me think he cannot separate his faith from his political service.

BTW...I suspect there are those who utilize the Qur'an, but maybe practice some parts of Sharia...or none at all. There are certainly some parts that would make me say...NOPE, but that would have to do with me looking at someone's overt ACTIONS. I would have to look at the individual...I'm not picking on Muslims...It was a HYPOTHETICAL example used to make a point.

Characterizing it as an attack on Muslims is cheap...

Pretty simple really...There are faiths, in and of themselves you will not tolerate, regardless of the conduct of the person...I don't see it that way. And the part that kills me is you try and paint me the biggot here...I said "Muslim" and it could be construed as derogatory...trigger, microaggression, POUNCE!! You are right, this is a waste. Sorry I responded to your 1 millionth Carson is crazy post...but I'll end with this..What has he done that is overtly crazy?

 

[drake29]

they align with my views better...but yea, I am not hoping for any of those. Those would be selecting people not ready for the Job, or not built for the job...not quite the same as selecting someone (Hillary) who by appearances has a resume...but who is as CORRRUUUUPT as they come.

I don't understand how anyone could align their views with Donald Trump or Ben Carson. Both seem to be so out of touch with reality. The only Republicans I find remotely electable are Fiorina and Kasich. The Dems are all so far left it's ridiculous. I'm afraid the country is going to have another shitty president for at least 4 years - I'm not really sure we will ever get a credible conservative president ever again. Dems and Republicans are all for big gov't, spending $$$ and interventionism. It's all going to come to a head sooner or later and it's going to suck when it does.

 

[Buster Bluth]

I don't understand how anyone could align their views with Donald Trump or Ben Carson. Both seem to be so out of touch with reality. The only Republicans I find remotely electable are Fiorina and Kasich. The Dems are all so far left it's ridiculous. I'm afraid the country is going to have another shitty president for at least 4 years - I'm not really sure we will ever get a credible conservative president ever again. Dems and Republicans are all for big gov't, spending $$$ and interventionism. It's all going to come to a head sooner or later and it's going to suck when it does.

Who was the most recent "credible conservative President?"

 

[Wild Bill]

Who was the most recent "credible conservative President?"

nixon

 

[IrishJayhawk]

nixon

Nixon was far to the left of Obama on healthcare.

 

[ShawneeIrish]

Nixon was far to the left of Obama on healthcare.

This is spot on. Nixon would be branded a socialist today. Obama and Hillary are center right and portrayed as radical leftists.

 

[phgreek]

I don't understand how anyone could align their views with Donald Trump or Ben Carson. Both seem to be so out of touch with reality. The only Republicans I find remotely electable are Fiorina and Kasich. The Dems are all so far left it's ridiculous. I'm afraid the country is going to have another shitty president for at least 4 years - I'm not really sure we will ever get a credible conservative president ever again. Dems and Republicans are all for big gov't, spending $$$ and interventionism. It's all going to come to a head sooner or later and it's going to suck when it does.

Welp...I am conservative, they are generally conservative...as I said I don't want any of those you initially listed, nor do I think they'll get the nomination. But if I'm being honest, I sure as hell am not voting for Hillary Clinton.

Hopefully sooner...so I can help my kids through it....whatever that is

 

[Cackalacky]

This is spot on. Nixon would be branded a socialist today. Obama and Hillary are center right and portrayed as radical leftists.

Let's not forget about the EPA and OSHA

 

[BGIF]

This is spot on. Nixon would be branded a socialist today. Obama and Hillary are center right and portrayed as radical leftists.

Somewhere in hell, Herr Goebbels is smiling.

 

[BGIF]

Who was the most recent "credible conservative President?"

Who was the most recent "credible President"?


"I'm not a crook"

Contra/Middle East gun deal, sorry no quote comes to mind

"Read my lips no new taxes"

"I did not have sex with that woman"

"WMD"

"JV"

 

[BleedBlueGold]

This is spot on. Nixon would be branded a socialist today. Obama and Hillary are center right and portrayed as radical leftists.

The political shift to the right is a real thing and very few people acknowledge it due to lack of any historical objectivity. I'm sure there are plenty of examples that can used as exceptions, but for the most part, it holds true. I believe it was The Young Turks who were discussing how Sanders is considered a socialist, but compared to the 70s (I think), he's actually not that radically left. The shift moved to the right and suddenly what used to be common Dem talking points are now thought as socialist/communist.

 

[GoIrish41]

Who was the most recent "credible President"?


"I'm not a crook"

Contra/Middle East gun deal, sorry no quote comes to mind

"Read my lips no new taxes"

"I did not have sex with that woman"

"WMD"

"JV"

"Freedom fighters"

 

[woolybug25]

Nice to see Kasich fighting back. In his new campaign video:

“You might not care if Donald Trump says Muslims must register with their government because you’re not one. And you might not care if Donald Trump says he’s going to round up all the Hispanic immigrants, because you’re not one. And you might not care if Donald Trump says it’s OK to rough up black protesters, because you’re not one. And you might not care if Donald Trump wants to suppress journalists, because you’re not one.

You might not care about what Donald Trump says, But think about this: if he keeps going and he actually becomes president, he might just get around to you. And you better hope there’s someone left to help you.”

video in link:
Kasich goes after Trump with tough video | MSNBC

Trump responds as expected... just made fun of Kasich's poll numbers...

 

[MJ12666]

The political shift to the right is a real thing and very few people acknowledge it due to lack of any historical objectivity. I'm sure there are plenty of examples that can used as exceptions, but for the most part, it holds true. I believe it was The Young Turks who were discussing how Sanders is considered a socialist, but compared to the 70s (I think), he's actually not that radically left. The shift moved to the right and suddenly what used to be common Dem talking points are now thought as socialist/communist.

I not sure I agree. Sanders is considered a socialist because he admits to being one. Also consider that JFK proposed cutting income taxes to stimulate the economy and said "ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country." Imagine a Democratic candidate proposing to cut income taxes and making a similar statement today, he would probably be labeled a right wing fascist.

 

[MJ12666]

Nice to see Kasich fighting back. In his new campaign video:



video in link:
Kasich goes after Trump with tough video | MSNBC

Trump responds as expected... just made fun of Kasich's poll numbers...

You have to admit he is entertaining.

 

[Grahambo]

Who was the most recent "credible conservative President?"

Harrison Ford?