'11 CA LB Joe Schmidt (Scholarship Earned)

[kmoose]

Seriously? They ran a play action boot to his side of the field and he was completely out of position, but because other people were too he gets an EVEN grade????It only takes him to stay home and that play doesnt go for 30 yards if he is fast enough to stay with a QB in the open field. Same could be said about 2 or 3 other players on the same play, but he is our MIKE.

Seriously? Did you just start watching football this past weekend? The Inside linebacker is responsible for the inside run, first. He HAS to move to fill the inside hole on play action until someone sniffs out the fake. And the MLB's "home" is in between the tackles. So if he "stays home", then there is no way he can get outside and contain the quarterback on the roll out. Is there ANY play that you DON'T think the MLB should have stuffed, each and every time? Your bias is become almost cartoonish, Mr. Magoo.

 

[IrishLion]

Thanks for taking the time, but definitely not what I see looking at those same plays...and the grading seems pretty biased with intent to make him look not nearly as bad as he is...

Play 8 (3rd and 1): Pitt calls an excellent PA fake, their QB roles out into all of the green grass. Joe was fooled like the rest of the defense and collapsed on the fake. Just a good play-call by Pitt to the weak side. EVEN.

Seriously? They ran a play action boot to his side of the field and he was completely out of position, but because other people were too he gets an EVEN grade????It only takes him to stay home and that play doesnt go for 30 yards if he is fast enough to stay with a QB in the open field. Same could be said about 2 or 3 other players on the same play, but he is our MIKE.

Like I said, my system might be different, and I acknowledged that I may have been biased towards positivity. But in this example, sometimes the opposing team is just going to make good plays. Joe's first read is run, which he followed... it was a great ball-fake by Pitt's QB, and was called at the perfect time, to the perfect side of the field. If anything, the guy who would earn a negative on this play is whoever the DE and/or OLB was, because they would have contain responsibilities, NOT Joe.

The fist play of the game as well, just running blindly into the pile up at the line of scrimmage and getting bounced back on a 5 yd gain gets him an even grade? Thats like saying if his responsibility is to blitz, and he blitzes but gets completely stonewalled like he does on most blitzes that it's an even play...he's supposed to make or disrupt plays even if he cant make the play... simply charging into your blocker just because thats the blocker you were supposed to take on does not mean you executed your responsibility.

Here's where the negative bias comes in, IMO. You say he "bounced off," I say that he escaped the block and was in position for the gang tackle.

Also, your example is bad because I graded him negatively on the one blitz where he did get stonewalled.

 

[Luckylucci]

It's such an accepted myth that Joe was good last year. He was not. He was playing directly behind Jarron Jones and Sheldon Day and so the middle wasn't charmin soft last year. This year it's Cage/Tillery, who will be good but are not Jarron Jones (our best DL last year).

Joe had .5 TFL's last year. You don't accomplish that as a Mike linebacker through 8 games without being severely below average. He's never been good.

Joe was not an impact player last year but he was at least consistent in the rest of his game. To his credit he averaged 8 tackles/game last year. If he was doing that this year, I wouldn't have any issue with his play. I wouldn't be ecstatic but the consistency he brought last year was something to hang his hat on.

 

[koonja]

Joe was not an impact player last year but he was at least consistent in the rest of his game. To his credit he averaged 8 tackles/game last year. If he was doing that this year, I wouldn't have any issue with his play. I wouldn't be ecstatic but the consistency he brought last year was something to hang his hat on.

8 tacklers per game is better, but I still cannot fathom how a Mike LB musters 1/2 a TFL in 8 games. That's insane.

Morgan came in for 3 1/2 games and had 3.5 TFL. That's much more normal.

 

[Luckylucci]

8 tacklers per game is better, but I still cannot fathom how a Mike LB musters 1/2 a TFL in 8 games. That's insane.

Morgan came in for 3 1/2 games and had 3.5 TFL. That's much more normal.

Morgan can run fast, hit hard, and get out of position a lot. Because Joe was consistent in everything else that he was doing last year, I agree with not making any changes. This team, with all the play makers it has, needs a consistent MLB, IMO. Joe was that for 8 games last year. He's not that this year so I can understand, also agree with, the narrative this has taken on.

I'll add, that as of today, Martini is the guy I want to get snaps. He has play making ability as well as the understanding of the game/scheme.

 

[tussin]

TL;DR
Joe isn't as bad as the complaining seems to illustrate, but his level of play also shouldn't really be acceptable for a starting MLB at ND. He is actually pretty good in coverage, but lacks the ability to make things happen on his own.

Thanks for doing this. I don't necessarily agree with it all, but it was still helpful.

One takeaway I've had as a normal fan watching the games is that Joe is rarely out of position or makes any huge mistakes. We can obviously point to plays where he missed an assignment, but you can do that with any player. Supporting that, we can see in your review that many of the "-1" plays are due to him simply getting beat physically. Similarly, there are many plays rated as "EVEN" where a more athletic guy could have had a "+1" or "+2" grade but JS simply didn't have the speed or physical presence to make it happen.

I think that's the big issue. With Joe we have a MIKE whose physical limitations allow him to make ~65% of the plays that a normal BCS caliber starter should make and probably only ~10% of the plays that a high level BCS starter could make. Sadly, this results in a player who is almost a non-factor even when playing to his abilities.

 

[kmoose]

Morgan can run fast, hit hard, and get out of position a lot. Because Joe was consistent in everything else that he was doing last year, I agree with not making any changes. This team, with all the play makers it has, needs a consistent MLB, IMO. Joe was that for 8 games last year. He's not that this year so I can understand, also agree with, the narrative this has taken on.

I'll add, that as of today, Martini is the guy I want to get snaps. He has play making ability as well as the understanding of the game/scheme.

Martini was in on the first series of the Navy game. I don't think he was a "starter" for the game, and I couldn't tell whether they lined him up inside or outside. But he had a rough couple of plays on that first series. I'm not saying that means that Schmidt is any better, just saying that might be why they haven't given him more snaps.

 

[Te'o4Heisman]

Like I said, my system might be different, and I acknowledged that I may have been biased towards positivity. But in this example, sometimes the opposing team is just going to make good plays. Joe's first read is run, which he followed... it was a great ball-fake by Pitt's QB, and was called at the perfect time, to the perfect side of the field. If anything, the guy who would earn a negative on this play is whoever the DE and/or OLB was, because they would have contain responsibilities, NOT Joe.



Here's where the negative bias comes in, IMO. You say he "bounced off," I say that he escaped the block and was in position for the gang tackle.

Also, your example is bad because I graded him negatively on the one blitz where he did get stonewalled.

The problem is joe didn't "escape" any block. He never actually even got blocked on the play. Rochelle and Cage both got doubled on the play leaving Joe free to close down the whole that opened up, but instead he just ran up into the back of Rochelle who got pushed back a yard by the double team..look closely, Joe never got blocked on the play, but missed filling the hole and the play ended up netting 6 yards.

On the PA pass, I already agreed Joe was not the only one who bit the play fake, but if you are grading out an individual player, you can't say "oh, hey he wasn't the only one who got fooled, so it doesn't count that he got fooled". Nobody gives our safeties a break when they bite on Navy's play action and crash down the alleys leaving WRs running free.

 

[IrishLion]

Thanks for doing this. I don't necessarily agree with it all, but it was still helpful.

One takeaway I've had as a normal fan watching the games is that Joe is rarely out of position or makes any huge mistakes. We can obviously point to plays where he missed an assignment, but you can do that with any player. Supporting that, we can see in your review that many of the "-1" plays are due to him simply getting beat physically. Similarly, there are many plays rated as "EVEN" where a more athletic guy could have had a "+1" or "+2" grade but JS simply didn't have the speed or physical presence to make it happen.

I think that's the big issue. With Joe we have a MIKE whose physical limitations allow him to make ~65% of the plays that a normal BCS caliber starter should make and probably only ~10% of the plays that a high level BCS starter could make. Sadly, this results in a player who is almost a non-factor even when playing to his abilities.

You're exactly right, which is what I was trying to get at. It's clear that he is the field general, and that he is on-point mentally. The problem is that he lacks the physical ability to make things happen on his own.

"Even" plays aren't bad, but I feel that ND is in a place where they should have a MLB that turns some "Even" plays into "+" plays. Also, it's concerning to me personally, based on my rough outline of grading, that he isn't really ever going to create anything more than a +1 unless he forces a turnover, but he is a definite liability for "-2" types of plays.

Going back and looking through my breakdown, I probably should have taken a few of the +1's and changed them to neutral. His first half was much closer to "Even" than it was to +4, which is where his grade stands.

 

[Luckylucci]

Martini was in on the first series of the Navy game. I don't think he was a "starter" for the game, and I couldn't tell whether they lined him up inside or outside. But he had a rough couple of plays on that first series. I'm not saying that means that Schmidt is any better, just saying that might be why they haven't given him more snaps.

Martini played quite a bit versus both GT and Navy. Not sure what specific plays you are recalling but he played quite well both games overall. He played in place of JO if my memory serves me. Had 9 total tackles in that game.

Also, due to scheme changes, like Martini playing over JO, I can't believe the staff would look at that tape or series solely to make a decision on whether he should play or not.

 

[IrishLion]

The problem is joe didn't "escape" any block. He never actually even got blocked on the play. Rochelle and Cage both got doubled on the play leaving Joe free to close down the whole that opened up, but instead he just ran up into the back of Rochelle who got pushed back a yard by the double team..look closely, Joe never got blocked on the play, but missed filling the hole and the play ended up netting 6 yards.

I disagree with this because of the way the defensive front formed a wall in front of him and with the OL getting a good push, and it appeared to me that an OL did start to climb into Joe's face, but we can leave it at that. We just see different things and that's okay lol.

On the PA pass, I already agreed Joe was not the only one who bit the play fake, but if you are grading out an individual player, you can't say "oh, hey he wasn't the only one who got fooled, so it doesn't count that he got fooled". Nobody gives our safeties a break when they bite on Navy's play action and crash down the alleys leaving WRs running free.

It's not that "he wasn't the only one who got fooled." It's the fact that Joe's first responsibility is run, and that's where he went. There were plenty of other PA plays that Joe stepped towards the line, recognized it immediately, and retreated into good position. This particular play was just a very well executed ball-fake by Pitt's QB, which is why there was so much space. That's not Joe's fault. And again, he showed on every other PA attempt by Pitt that his play recognition skills are pretty damn good, so I just give Pitt props on this one personally.

 

[gkIrish]

We can quibble about individual plays or we can focus on what even Lion agreed with...that is, he isn't playing at a level expected for a player at his position at a top program. But he continues to get 100% of the snaps. That's all there is to it.

 

[Irish_Passion]

Thanks for doing this. I don't necessarily agree with it all, but it was still helpful.

One takeaway I've had as a normal fan watching the games is that Joe is rarely out of position or makes any huge mistakes. We can obviously point to plays where he missed an assignment, but you can do that with any player. Supporting that, we can see in your review that many of the "-1" plays are due to him simply getting beat physically. Similarly, there are many plays rated as "EVEN" where a more athletic guy could have had a "+1" or "+2" grade but JS simply didn't have the speed or physical presence to make it happen.

I think that's the big issue. With Joe we have a MIKE whose physical limitations allow him to make ~65% of the plays that a normal BCS caliber starter should make and probably only ~10% of the plays that a high level BCS starter could make. Sadly, this results in a player who is almost a non-factor even when playing to his abilities.

I agree! Thanks Lion for doing the analysis. I don't completely agree but I respect the opinion and mostly the effort.

I GREATLY respect Joe, and I think he deserves all the support he gets for accomplishing what he has at Notre Dame. That being said, if I was coaching against ND, I would single out two people like crazy on defense, Joe Schmidt and Max Redfield. Hell even KVR for one on one isolations. Knowing where we have a chance to be in the playoffs, the biggest concern of the teams most likely to face lies with Schmidt. It will not take much of OL or TE talent to put a body on him, and what I don't believe has been talked about much is the trash that he creates for all of our flow. When he cannot shed a block or blow up a block, it creates so much trash that our flowing LB's get caught in (even our safeties from time to time on run fits). Of the opponents that we are potentially gonna face, this is a MAJOR problem.

Again, I try my damnedest not to try and add onto the pile of JS because I admire everything he is, its just difficult trying to understand why we don't have an alternate plan that could be looked at.

 

[ThePiombino]

We can quibble about individual plays or we can focus on what even Lion agreed with...that is, he isn't playing at a level expected for a player at his position at a top program. But he continues to get 100% of the snaps. That's all there is to it.

Yup, I think this is the one fact that everyone can agree with. He's not performing at a high level, so why is he getting all the snaps? I don't want to hear about Morgan "not getting it". I don't care about practice. Can't really tell what some people have until there are live rounds in the chamber. See Kizer now compared to the spring game.

 

[kmoose]

Not sure what specific plays you are recalling but he played quite well both games overall.

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Navy's first 3 plays:

- A run right at Greer Martini where he doesn't even get close to getting off of the block, and the ball carrier runs right by him for 50 yards before Jaylon Smith runs him down.

- A run to Martini's side of the field. He does a decent job of holding the blocker at the point of attack, but doesn't get off the block to make the tackle, nor does he move the blocker backwards to disrupt the ball carrier.

- A run to Martini's side where he completely whiffs the tackle, and Navy runs for a touchdown.

I can't believe the staff would look at that tape or series solely to make a decision on whether he should play or not.

I agree. What I should have said was "that may be PART of why the coaches are not giving him more snaps."

 

[Irish Insanity]

It's such an accepted myth that Joe was good last year. He was not. He was playing directly behind Jarron Jones and Sheldon Day and so the middle wasn't charmin soft last year. This year it's Cage/Tillery, who will be good but are not Jarron Jones (our best DL last year).

Joe had .5 TFL's last year. You don't accomplish that as a Mike linebacker through 8 games without being severely below average. He's never been good.

Also we sucked after he was hurt so some seem to attribute our demise to him being injured. When in fact we lost far more valuable pieces at the same time that caused us to play like shit.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

So how was he voted MVP last year? Player-voted award, right?

 

[Bogtrotter07]

So how was he voted MVP last year? Player-voted award, right?

Excellent point, sir!

But it must be ignored.

Joe is this defenses problem so everything pointing to the contrary must be ignored.

Again, it is kind of like taking wild pot shots at the side of a barn, finding a grouping of four or five shots, and painting a target around it!

Logical Fallacy : 'myside' bias exposed.

 

[ThePiombino]

So how was he voted MVP last year? Player-voted award, right?

Believe so.

Excellent point, sir!

But it must be ignored.

Joe is this defenses problem so everything pointing to the contrary must be ignored.

Again, it is kind of like taking wild pot shots at the side of a barn, finding a grouping of four or five shots, and painting a target around it!

Logical Fallacy : 'myside' bias exposed.

People also thought the world was flat at one time. But eventually we realized that was silly.

 

[BGIF]

So how was he voted MVP last year? Player-voted award, right?

Take your pick from paraphrased usual fan laments:


"The players" have a soft spot for Rudy like athletes.

"The players" don't want to see underclassmen play.

"The players" believe only cerebral athletes should start.

"The players" believe none of the other 100 members of the squad were good enough.

"The players" are poor judges of ability.

"The players" only vote for a player they like.

 

[gkIrish]

So how was he voted MVP last year? Player-voted award, right?

We are discussing his performance this year. Not sure why this is relevant.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

We are discussing his performance this year. Not sure why this is relevant.

There are a handful of posts above discussing the "myth" that Joe was good last year. I just neglected to quote them.

 

[Te'o4Heisman]

There are a handful of posts above discussing the "myth" that Joe was good last year. I just neglected to quote them.

To me, last year Joe was average...not great but not awful. He had very good DL in front of him and did an acceptable job playing off them. He fit in with the talent around him. The biggest difference this year is that most (not all) around him in the back 7 have taken a step forward while he has taken a big step back. The difference is also that this year he has guys who aren't true freshman behind him, that most feel should at least get more of an opportunity to try (and fail) since Joe is having so little impact anyhow.

 

[NDohio]

So how was he voted MVP last year? Player-voted award, right?

MVP of an 8-5 team.

Not gonna happen for a National Championship contending team.

 

[CIrishWin]

He does not make difference making plays. He is also always a step to late on the blitz.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

MVP of an 8-5 team.

Not gonna happen for a National Championship contending team.

Sure. But 4 of the 5 losses came after he got hurt.

I do wonder if the injury has him a bit slower this year.

 

[Wild Bill]

So how was he voted MVP last year? Player-voted award, right?

Two reasons in my estimation:

1. He had a knack for finding the football last year and he made some big plays, i.e., stripped a ball against Michigan, the interception against FSU, etc. I agree with Koon that he wasn't as disruptive as one would want against the run (very few tackles for loss) but he was a solid run defender last year - he got to the ball carrier and was a sure tackler.

2. Expectations. This is the big one, IMO. Most people expected him to struggle last year and he didn't. He played well and everyone was ecstatic about his performance. Expectations were much higher this year and he hasn't met them. The more you give the more people will want. That's life.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

2. Expectations. This is the big one, IMO. Most people expected him to struggle last year and he didn't. He played well and everyone was ecstatic about his performance. Expectations were much higher this year and he hasn't met them. The more you give the more people will want. That's life.

Really good point.

 

[dublinirish]

We also expected the defense as a whole to be better in year 2 of BVG's scheme and thus the need for Joe's organizational skills to be less. This hasn't been the case according to BK

 

[Irish Insanity]

MVP of an 8-5 team.

Not gonna happen for a National Championship contending team.

Sure. But 4 of the 5 losses came after he got hurt.

I do wonder if the injury has him a bit slower this year.

So MVP of an 8-5 team. Where he got injured and only played half the year. Maybe he wasn't voted MVP based solely on his performance on the field then......