Brian Kelly Revisited (RIP BOZO)

[RDU Irish]

I personally would have gone for two for one big reason.....if I fail, I have the chance to make up for it with the rest of the game. At that point in the game, ND had to assume at best, 3 more possessions (maybe only 2) and have not exactly been moving up and down the field. If I know I need 2 TD's to win it in my final 3 drives, I would call the game differently. Basically, it's whether or not I need to play for a FG in conditions that were dicey for Yoon. Certainly impacts your decision making going forward in the game.

That decision is splitting hairs. Bigger problem is inability to get the proper unit on the field and go - again sh!t happens when you are dealing with a bunch of 18-22 year olds. GK sounds like my wife thinking she can impose her will on three children under the age of 12 at all times for perfect behavior. Setting yourself up for serious disappointment. A little historic context would go a long way to understanding this program is a sum of many parts that have been built over the last 6 years. It is light years ahead of what was inherited.

You want to argue coaching, argue with Mike Golic saying this AM that Willingham should have gotten a full 5 years to prove his worth. We might be D2 by now if that had been allowed!

 

[IrishSteelhead]

Do you think we win that game with MZ at QB? I do.



There are few schools that can replace their starter in week one and replace with a guy that had all of a few snaps worth of game experience and still expect to be in the top four at the end of the year. We all knew that when MZ went down.



At the start of the year I said it was a 10 win regular season or bust and I still think that.

IMO no. Guys are still dropping and losing footballs. Kizer impressed me, and wouldn't crack my top ten in the "blame game."

 

[kmoose]

The 4 TO'S excuse is complete bullshit. Weren't they all in the second half. While we were trying to make a comback. Long after we were down 14. I mean 4 TOs will kill any team, but we were dead long before we turned it over.

We had a chance to tie the game with a 2 point conversion with 7 seconds left in the game. I think your reports of our death have been greatly exaggerated.

 

[Ndaccountant]

IMO no. Guys are still dropping and losing footballs. Kizer impressed me, and wouldn't crack my top ten in the "blame game."

It's not Kizer throwing versus MZ throwing, but rather Kizer running versus MZ running. MZ could have done some things that would have changed the gameplan quite a bit for both teams.

 

[pkt77242]

The 4 TO'S excuse is complete bullshit. Weren't they all in the second half. While we were trying to make a comback. Long after we were down 14. I mean 4 TOs will kill any team, but we were dead long before we turned it over.

Wait, so being down 14 means a team is dead, even when it is in the first half or the early 3rd quarter? Huh. Those 4 turnovers meant that we didn't get to score points, and at least one led to points for Clemson. That sure would have been helpful when we are trying to make a comeback.

 

[Irish#1]

I've been saying this before the game started.

How can an oline stop a loaded box?

The QB needs to force the box to breakdown. Why Kelly spent so much wasted effort to start the game running, idk. But we should have been throwing from the start.
If we would have established the passing game earlier on this game would have been much different.

If you want to force the run against stacked box, then you have to bring in additional TE's or lineman. This forces the stack to spread out more and then lets the interior guys go one on one. If the D doesn't spread out, then you can run outside.

 

[kmoose]

If you look at right around the 11 second mark...If Kizer takes the flat cut underneath the D end for a few steps and drops his shoulder, I think he makes it...one guy to beat out there...he'll start to see the green...still slowing it down.

I think you might be right, however........... is there any reason, before knowing the result of the play, that Kizer should not have trusted his O Line to seal the pursuit from inside? Any reason that Kizer shouldn't expect his Center and Guard to handle one DT? If Martin and Elmer successfully execute a Double Team block, then Kizer makes it in. It just sucks, knowing how close they were. But one of the things that we are all overlooking, is that the 2pt conversion would only have tied the game. We still would have had to win in OT. I know we had the momentum, but it's not like Clemson was going to just roll over and let us win.

 

[dublinirish]

lol

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">SOURCES: hearing Brian Kelly, Mark Dantonio, and Urban Meyer are top three Dolphins candidates</p>— mgoblog (@mgoblog) <a href="https://twitter.com/mgoblog/status/651061802185396224">October 5, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[ACamp1900]

I really can't see any of those three being successful at the pro level (not that Urban Meyer isn't really good at coaching professional teams....)

 

[gkIrish]

Fuller is in his 3rd year, not 4th or 5th.

ETA: Also we have 1 loss, I think a 10-2 season is still very likely. Were you really expecting better than that this year? What was your preseason prediction?

I think I predicted 10-2 with losses to GTECH and USC. I think we will still lose to USC and at least one other game. Might lose 4 games this year. The point still stands if he is a third year. He hasn't learned how to catch with his hands in three years so whatever.

End of the day, drops and fumbles cost us more than any coaching decision. The drops and fumbles were we evenly spread across the team so I am not seeing anyone as a complete scapegoat. Sometimes you have to accept that crap happens, how you respond to that crap says a lot more about you than anything. We bounced back and gave ourselves a solid shot at winning.

Holtz got run out of town for the type of talk you are making. Nobody is perfect but damn if Kelly isn't the closest thing we have had to the real deal in 20 years. He is going to have to do a hell of a lot worse than this to lose my confidence.

You and others keep assuming fumbles are completely luck. They aren't.

And you all love Kelly because we spent 15 years with terrible coaches so now that we have an above-average coach that satisfies everyone. Not me.

Do you think we win that game with MZ at QB? I do.

There are few schools that can replace their starter in week one and replace with a guy that had all of a few snaps worth of game experience and still expect to be in the top four at the end of the year. We all knew that when MZ went down.

At the start of the year I said it was a 10 win regular season or bust and I still think that.

I have no idea. I don't think the QB was the problem last night, though.


You are all being shortsighted because Clemson is viewed as a good team, like Georgia Tech was. Clemson is going to lose 2-3 games the rest of the year because they really are not that good. So losing by two to them looks really great now but wait until they have 2 losses and we are their only good win.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

I disagree with almost all of that.

There is literally none of that article that is trolling. Furtuna has done it plenty of times in the past. This isn't one of them.

The defense did start off the game on their heels. They seemed totally overwhelmed and "shell shocked." They were out of position and tackled poorly. Yes, the punt set up Clemson on a short field. Yes, they settled down after the first 8 minutes of the game. Clemson game planned for them on both sides of the ball and it took ND awhile to settle down and make adjustments. Fortuna is not off base with his statements regarding the opening two drives.

The 2-point conversion is debatable. Literally forty seconds sooner and BK is going for the XP and not two. I truly believe he was chasing points at that moment and it bit him. Now, with that said, the play call was fine and we're not discussing this is CRob catches a freaking ball. But again, nothing wrong with Matt's stance on that point.

ND had SEVEN instances where they either put the ball on the ground or had it intercepted. They lost three fumbles and had the INT. Experienced, focused teams do not do that. Granted, to your point LAX, a lot of those were committed by inexperienced guys. I tend to not care about the semantics. ND turned it over a lot more than Clemson.

Kizer did not play great, but a RS Fresh making his first road start at Clemson, at night, in the rain played decent enough for his team to win. Yet he got very little help. I was pleasantly surprised by him.

ESPN has been hard on the OL since Saturday night. ND had a predictable game plan against a stacked box early on, so it's a little unfair to bash the OL. I'll concede this point that Fortuna is a little off base. The OL absolutely did not play fantastic though and they were widely considered to be the strength of the team, so it's not a total troll job. Hell the very last play of the game failed due to blocking.

To anyone who keeps using the excuses about injuries: It's a part of the game. It sucks. But lots of teams go through it. Clemson has felt it too. Four games into the season, it's time to let that go. Again, Fortuna is not trolling on that point.

Lastly, ND does have to regroup and face a Navy team that's given them fits and a USC team that flat out destroyed them last year. Nothing wrong in his statement. Going into this season, all anyone heard was about the depth and how this team was deeper than 2012. This was supposed to be the year. Again, nothing wrong with Fortuna's statement.

I typically hate ESPN, but this is not an article that was completely fabricating what really happened in Death Valley.

 

[tussin]

This was just a weird game. We were the better team, but lost in a close game in a pouring rain. Clemson knows they stole one.

Shit happens though... if ND played like that at home in good weather then I'd be more upset. But four turnovers in an actual hurricane, while bad, is not "BK SHOULD BE FIRED!!!" bad.

Bama lost with four turnoverrs to an inferior Ole Miss team. They responded well, let's see if we can do the same.

 

[RDU Irish]

There is literally none of that article that is trolling. Furtuna has done it plenty of times in the past. This isn't one of them.

The defense did start off the game on their heels. They seemed totally overwhelmed and "shell shocked." They were out of position and tackled poorly. Yes, the punt set up Clemson on a short field. Yes, they settled down after the first 8 minutes of the game. Clemson game planned for them on both sides of the ball and it took ND awhile to settle down and make adjustments. Fortuna is not off base with his statements regarding the opening two drives.

The 2-point conversion is debatable. Literally forty seconds sooner and BK is going for the XP and not two. I truly believe he was chasing points at that moment and it bit him. Now, with that said, the play call was fine and we're not discussing this is CRob catches a freaking ball. But again, nothing wrong with Matt's stance on that point.

ND had SEVEN instances where they either put the ball on the ground or had it intercepted. They lost three fumbles and had the INT. Experienced, focused teams do not do that. Granted, to your point LAX, a lot of those were committed by inexperienced guys. I tend to not care about the semantics. ND turned it over a lot more than Clemson.

Kizer did not play great, but a RS Fresh making his first road start at Clemson, at night, in the rain played decent enough for his team to win. Yet he got very little help. I was pleasantly surprised by him.

ESPN has been hard on the OL since Saturday night. ND had a predictable game plan against a stacked box early on, so it's a little unfair to bash the OL. I'll concede this point that Fortuna is a little off base. The OL absolutely did not play fantastic though and they were widely considered to be the strength of the team, so it's not a total troll job. Hell the very last play of the game failed due to blocking.

To anyone who keeps using the excuses about injuries: It's a part of the game. It sucks. But lots of teams go through it. Clemson has felt it too. Four games into the season, it's time to let that go. Again, Fortuna is not trolling on that point.

Lastly, ND does have to regroup and face a Navy team that's given them fits and a USC team that flat out destroyed them last year. Nothing wrong in his statement. Going into this season, all anyone heard was about the depth and how this team was deeper than 2012. This was supposed to be the year. Again, nothing wrong with Fortuna's statement.

I typically hate ESPN, but this is not an article that was completely fabricating what really happened in Death Valley.

19-34 312 yards, 2 TD, 1 INT plus 15 carries for 60 yards and a TD - He does that every game he wins a Heisman. Let alone doing it against a stout defense in the rain on the road? WTF is wrong with you saying Kizer did not have a great game?

This thread is making my head hurt.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

19-34 312 yards, 2 TD, 1 INT plus 15 carries for 60 yards and a TD - He does that every game he wins a Heisman. Let alone doing it against a stout defense in the rain on the road? WTF is wrong with you saying Kizer did not have a great game?

This thread is making my head hurt.

That was taken out of context and I didn't mean to say that he played poorly, just that his stat line could've looked a ton better if he had some help. I have zero gripes with Kizer on Saturday, none.

 

[RDU Irish]

Game ball to Kizer if we win, no doubt about it.

WRs get a week ten feet in front of the Jugs machine at full throttle. No helmet, aimed between the eyes.

 

[kmoose]

FWIW, here is my take on this entire thread:

People want to believe. It's why religions have flourished without any real evidence of much of what they teach; it is human nature to want to believe in something. A lot of people in this thread want to believe that there is just ONE thing that, if it were cleaned up or changed, would turn this team into an undefeated team. That's simply not true. If we cleaned up the fumbles, then maybe Kelly continues to stick with his original game plan, and we continue to struggle to run the ball and we don't score points. If we clean up the drops, then maybe Kizer tries to force more balls into places where he shouldn't, and throws a couple more INTs. If we adjust the game plan sooner, maybe Kizer gets an ankle or knee rolled up on in the pocket. If we fix all of the Offensive woes, maybe the D doesn't nut up and focus and play so well in the 4thQ. There were a number of factors that contributed to the loss. I don't see the Navy game being close, and I think we can, should, and will, beat USC. This team will not quit. They are talented and committed. And I believe that the worst record we are looking at is 10-2. That's not to say that I don't think there will be some boneheaded moments along the way, but I do believe that they have the talent and desire to overcome those moments more often than not.

Let's all calm down, leave the personal stuff out of it, and look forward to what is bound to be an exciting and happy rest of the season.

 

[Cackalacky]

I am stuck in the midlands right now and still have not made it home. Killing time right now but having read the last few pages.... There is a contingent in this thread that is giving Clemson way too much credit. They are not a top 10 team. Flat out. They are way overrated and watching them live my opinion is not changed. This is a bad loss because Clemson will end up being overrated by the end of the year. That game should have been over in the second qrt.

Kizer is missing reads because he is not supposed to be reading. His handoffs are supposed to be handoffs. Several of the miscues were because he knew he should have kept it but the play was to hand it off. That was very clear even from the stands. The team came out flat again.... Got out coached in the first half and failed to adjust till the end if the third qrt.

This was a win regardless of weather. Clemson is not a good team. Please stop saying that. Poor execution and turnovers and all those damned false start penalties....ffs. There was a time that the offense was going backwards.


After 24 hours of reflection.....I am super disappointed in many aspects of that game. That should have been a win and it should not have been close.

 

[wizards8507]

Kizer is missing reads because he is not supposed to be reading. His handoffs are supposed to be handoffs. Several of the miscues were because he knew he should have kept it but the play was to hand it off. That was very clear even from the stands. The team came out flat again.... Got out coached in the first half and failed to adjust till the end if the third qrt.

Interesting. You think Kelly just doesn't trust him?

 

[Cackalacky]

Interesting. You think Kelly just doesn't trust him?

No it's not so much trust but limiting his responsibilities on the field. Allowing Kizer to do things he is good at. Kelly is protecting him with max protection and simple calls. He is not going through his reads on pass plays because he only has one read.

 

[kmoose]

Kizer is missing reads because he is not supposed to be reading. His handoffs are supposed to be handoffs. Several of the miscues were because he knew he should have kept it but the play was to hand it off.

I'm not sure I buy this. What you are saying is that the coaches are calling an option run, but taking the option away by ordering Kizer to hand the ball off at all costs?

I'm just not sure I can go that far, if that is what you meant.

 

[Irish Insanity]

I really can't see any of those three being successful at the pro level (not that Urban Meyer isn't really good at coaching professional teams....)

That's a tweet from mgoblog. I'm sure it's just them wishing.

Interesting. You think Kelly just doesn't trust him?

I think it's wrong to expect that out of him after a few games.

 

[Cackalacky]

I'm not sure I buy this. What you are saying is that the coaches are calling an option run, but taking the option away by ordering Kizer to hand the ball off at all costs?

I'm just not sure I can go that far, if that is what you meant.

No it's not an option. It is designed to look like one but he is either Ramses with keeping it or handing it off as directed. Nothing I saw makes me think he is making a choice on the field.

I am about to head out and try to get home and I will try to explain better later.

 

[wizards8507]

I think it's wrong to expect that out of him after a few games.

Malik ran it in his first game against LSU. Golson never did. I think it's driven more by the player than anything.

 

[Cackalacky]

I'm not sure I buy this. What you are saying is that the coaches are calling an option run, but taking the option away by ordering Kizer to hand the ball off at all costs?

I'm just not sure I can go that far, if that is what you meant.

I don't care if you can that far, respectfully. It's not an option. It is designed to look like one but he is either Tasked with keeping it or handing it off as directed. Nothing I saw makes me think he is making a choice on the field.

I am about to head out and try to get home and I will try to explain better later.

 

[kmoose]

No it's not an option. It is designed to look like one but he is either Ramses with keeping it or handing it off as directed. Nothing I saw makes me think he is making a choice on the field.

I am about to head out and try to get home and I will try to explain better later.

If it's not an option, then Kizer shouldn't be worried about "knowing he should keep it"?

Safe travels to you.

 

[IrishLax]

3. Fuller also dropped one IIRC.

7. The team. Numerous posters on this site (I mean look at Judghed's posts this morning). Experts who predicted us to make the playoffs. etc. etc.

And if we didn't have a title shot this year, that's the ENTIRE POINT OF THIS THREAD. YOU SHOULD BE IN THE TITLE CONVERSATION IN YEAR 5

Fuller isn't a senior though, right?

Title aspirations and expectations is reasonable, even with Vegas picking you to win 8.5 games (before the injuries). Title DESTINY is some manufactured Matt Fortuna bullshit. Objectively speaking, Notre Dame was not slotted as one of the top four teams entering this year and was not one of the title odds favorites... and then the team was decimated.

 

[gkIrish]

Fuller isn't a senior though, right?

Title aspirations and expectations is reasonable, even with Vegas picking you to win 8.5 games (before the injuries). Title DESTINY is some manufactured Matt Fortuna bullshit. Objectively speaking, Notre Dame was not slotted as one of the top four teams entering this year and was not one of the title odds favorites... and then the team was decimated.

He never said the people who dropped the balls were all 4th and 5th year players.

His point was that a team with that much experience and leadership should not have been fumbling and dropping passes like a Pop Warner team.

 

[kmoose]

And if we didn't have a title shot this year, that's the ENTIRE POINT OF THIS THREAD. YOU SHOULD BE IN THE TITLE CONVERSATION IN YEAR 5

You can't realistically be in the title conversation every year. We were just in the conversation, and the game, three years ago. And since when is ND out of the conversation THIS year? Finish the season 11-1, and you have a damn good shot at the playoffs. Once in the playoffs, anything can happen.

 

[kmoose]

His point was that a team with that much experience and leadership should not have been fumbling and dropping passes like a Pop Warner team.

This is true. But some of the fumbles were good plays by the defense. Others, like the Sanders fumble........... at this level, can you really blame a coach, when a kid doesn't cover the ball with both hands as he is about to get hit on a kick return? That would be almost like blaming the coaches because your running back ran the wrong way. Some things should just be, well............... fundamental, at this level.

 

[wizards8507]

If it's not an option, then Kizer shouldn't be worried about "knowing he should keep it"?

Safe travels to you.

I think Cack's point is that it looks and feels like an option, and Kizer see's the DE crashing and that Prosise is going to get clobbered, but the play is called as "hand it off no matter what so you don't have to think about it," and that conflicts with his instincts / what he's seeing.