2016 Presidential Horse Race

[ShawneeIrish]

Regardless of the merits of Sanders' plan for free college education, THIS is a ridiculous statement. If tax money was not being used to pay for college for people before, and it would be under Sanders' plan, then it is NEW spending.

That's not a criticism of you, Buster..... you were only quoted because your post contained the source material.

Well, I think what Buster's post was saying is that college is currently paid by the government through government student loans. Under Bernie's plan it would be funded through taxes. Both are government spending. One falls on the student/borrower to pay back the government, the other would fall on a broader base by funding through taxing. Don't want to impute something to Buster that he did not wish to communicate but thats the way I read it and it would be accurate to categorize both as government spending.

 

[Ultimate Penn St. Hater]

The birther movement is ridiculous no matter who thought it up. Obama is an American citizen because his mother was an American citizen. It doesn't matter where he was born. Same goes for Cruz.

 

[wizards8507]

Can someone attempt to explain to me why conservative media, including heavy hitters like Rush, have been defending Trump's ridiculousness this entire campaign season? I honestly can't figure it out. I know the hard right abhors the moderate / RINO candidates like Graham and Bush, but the fact that Trump is "outside the establishment" does not make him a conservative.

 

[RDU Irish]

The birther movement is ridiculous no matter who thought it up. Obama is an American citizen because his mother was an American citizen. It doesn't matter where he was born. Same goes for Cruz.

I'm pretty sure Cruz is from another planet. Guy creeps me out big time.

Trump has stage presence, the Republicans are confusing his celebrity with Obama's popularity contest he ran 8 years ago.

 

[kmoose]

Well, I think what Buster's post was saying is that college is currently paid by the government through government student loans. Under Bernie's plan it would be funded through taxes. Both are government spending. One falls on the student/borrower to pay back the government, the other would fall on a broader base by funding through taxing. Don't want to impute something to Buster that he did not wish to communicate but thats the way I read it and it would be accurate to categorize both as government spending.

OK, fair enough. But then you have to determine just how much taxpayer money goes into student loans, but doesn't come back(is never repaid), because that will be the TRUE cost to the government.

 

[phgreek]

Obviously you can believe what you want or introduce all the uncertainty you want into this matter. But, it is widely documented and perceived by business people and Wall Street that her run as CEO for HP was a significant failure. AndyinSacTown has some good points as well, HP has never really recovered from the bad deal that she committed to, which ultimately failed.

Uncertainty defined the time she was there...so, it is what it is. Her performance is widely debatable, for sure. Definitively a significant failure...Naaa. Saw this yesterday, and seems to align with my general perceptions of the Fiorina tenure...

Carly Fiorina's Hewlett-Packard track record in 4 charts - Fortune

she wasn’t a horrible CEO, but she wasn’t a great one either.

I'd say she was good, average, decent...

as to whether HP never recovered..seems too "it is all Bush's fault" for me. HP had some good years 05 ish and showed a trend of improving before hand, and beyond...So, she left a functional company that did ok...

Also, if she was a such a great CEO that just had a dysfunctional board or got the raw deal of the tech bubble, she obviously should have landed another high position somewhere else as CEO right? No, she joined the board of a Tiawanese company for a few years, the board of a Virginia university for a few more then tried to get into politics losing her bid in California. I'll pass.

I never said she was great...going back to my discussion with Goirish, I think its clear my point was she wasn't a disaster, and people tend to take that assessment because it is currently politically convenient. I believe a lot of what was and is said about her tenure seemed exaggerated. As to her employment...REALLY? Seriously, you know if anyone offered her a job? I've changed careers, and turned down offers...for me it was about the challenge, and what drove me. I can't speak to her motivations or opportunities, but more importantly, I'm guessing you can't either.

I really don't care who you "pass" on (so long as it is Hillary). I also believe the likelihood that you'd vote for an R is low. So obviously my response is motivated by fairness...not some need to have you vote for someone that isn't my first choice either.

I see the characterization of Fiorina as unbalanced...

 

[phgreek]

I'm pretty sure Cruz is from another planet. Guy creeps me out big time.

Trump has stage presence, the Republicans are confusing his celebrity with Obama's popularity contest he ran 8 years ago.

Yup...

 

[Corry]

Joe Biden: Human Life Begins at Conception | Mediaite

In an interview with Catholic magazine America, Vice President Joe Biden said he personally agrees with the Catholic teachings that life begins at conception and that abortion is always wrong, but he isn’t willing to legislate based on that belief.

“I’m prepared to accept that at the moment of conception there’s human life and being,” Biden said. “But I’m not prepared to say that to other God-fearing, non-God-fearing people that have a different view.”

“There’s even been disagreement in our church, not that— abortion is always wrong,” he said. “But there’s been debate, and so there’s for me a point where the church makes a judgment— as we Catholics call de fide doctrine— said, ‘This is what our doctrine is.’”

“All the principles of my faith, I make no excuse for attempting to live up to— I don’t all the time. But I’m not prepared to impose doctrine that I’m prepared to accept on the rest of [us],” he said.

 

[wizards8507]

Joe Biden: Human Life Begins at Conception | Mediaite

What an idiot. Life beginning at conception is a scientific fact, not a theological opinion. As such, "imposing" it on other people is no more an imposition of religion than murder is.

 

[Cackalacky]

What an idiot. Life beginning at conception is a scientific fact, not a theological opinion. As such, "imposing" it on other people is no more an imposition of religion than murder is.

That's not true. The definition of "Life" is far from settled as multiple organisms can have multiple stages in their cycle that may or may not be able to replicate but quite clearly exist, respond to stimuli, interact with the environment.... I guess limiting the definition to a dipolid zygote... even that is not fully correct because even sperm and eggs are living just not capable of replicating without each other. You are better off saying a possibly viable human embryo instead of "Life".

 

[GATTACA!]

Joe Biden: Human Life Begins at Conception | Mediaite

Hey at least he is willing to concede that much ground on the topic. That puts him ahead of the other Dem candidates IMO.

 

[GoIrish41]

Hey at least he is willing to concede that much ground on the topic. That puts him ahead of the other Dem candidates IMO.

Biden has held this position for years. Not sure why this is news now, but I have heard him say virtually the same thing half a dozen times over the years. I think he said it during the VP debate last cycle.

 

[NDgradstudent]

Joe Biden: Human Life Begins at Conception | Mediaite

Pro-choice Catholic pols from both parties have peddled this line about "my personal beliefs" for a long time (including famously on ND's campus, alas). Obviously it is nonsense. Of course we "impose" some "beliefs" on others through law- what do you think the law against ordinary homicide is? Some people think homicide is permissible. Certainly, plenty of people think infanticide is permissible, but then we can impose our view on them? Or maybe not?

Biden has a particularly sordid history here, considering that he was part of the defamation of Robert Bork (led by Ted Kennedy, who was by then pro-choice). The result of this attack was that we ended up with Anthony Kennedy, who voted to uphold Roe v. Wade in 1992. Let me say this unequivocally: if Bork had been confirmed, Roe would be gone and there would be far fewer abortions today.

 

[GoIrish41]

Ben Carson argued evolution was 'encouraged by' Satan | MSNBC

 

[wizards8507]

That's not true. The definition of "Life" is far from settled as multiple organisms can have multiple stages in their cycle that may or may not be able to replicate but quite clearly exist, respond to stimuli, interact with the environment.... I guess limiting the definition to a dipolid zygote... even that is not fully correct because even sperm and eggs are living just not capable of replicating without each other. You are better off
saying a possibly viable human embryo instead of "Life".

I'm not a geneticist, but I think you can make the following argument.

P1. Anything made of multiple living cells is alive.
P2. All living things are either human or non-human.
P3. A fetus is made of cells.
P4. A fetus is not non-human.
C1. Therefore, a fetus is living and human.

P5. A living human is an individual if it has 23 pairs of chromosomes.
P6. To murder is to deliberately bring about the end of life of a human individual.
P7. A fetus is living and human (by C1 and P1) and has 23 pairs of chromosomes.
P8. Abortion is the deliberate ending of life of a fetus.
C2. Therefore, abortion is murder.

Yeah, I know my argument isn't structured perfectly to allow for single-celled organisms or twins, but those things can be tweaked with some language modifications.

 

[kmoose]

I'm not a geneticist, but I think you can make the following argument.

P1. Anything made of multiple living cells is alive.
P2. All living things are either human or non-human.
P3. A fetus is made of cells.
P4. A fetus is not non-human.
C1. Therefore, a fetus is living and human.

P5. A living human is an individual if it has 23 pairs of chromosomes.
P6. To murder is to deliberately bring about the end of life of a human individual.
P7. A fetus is living and human (by C1 and P1) and has 23 pairs of chromosomes.
P8. Abortion is the deliberate ending of life of a fetus.
C2. Therefore, abortion is murder.

Yeah, I know my argument isn't structured perfectly to allow for single-celled organisms or twins, but those things can be tweaked with some language modifications.

At what point do you take into account a living organism's ability to survive on it's own, without a host?

I think that is what really heats the abortion debate up. I think most people realize that this question has to have some bearing on the debate. I also think that the amount of bearing is the biggest obstacle to consensus on the subject.

 

[wizards8507]

At what point do you take into account a living organism's ability to survive on it's own, without a host?

Never. A post-birth human infant is just as dependent on its mother or other caretaker as a fetus, it's just in a different physical location.

 

[kmoose]

Never. A post-birth human infant is just as dependent on its mother or other caretaker as a fetus, it's just in a different physical location.

I'm not sure I agree with that. A newborn can breathe. A fetus cannot. But abortion is a highly charged, highly emotional discussion. I try to respect everyone's (reasonable) opinions about it.

 

[wizards8507]

I'm not sure I agree with that. A newborn can breathe. A fetus cannot.

What's the difference between dying because you can't breathe on your own and dying because you can't feed yourself? They feel like two sides of the same coin.

 

[ACamp1900]

So... Abortion should be legal in Michigan regardless.... right?

 

[Cackalacky]

I'm not a geneticist, but I think you can make the following argument.

P1. Anything made of multiple living cells is alive
(FALSE. MITOCHONDRIA, BACTERIA, YEAST, AND A WHOLE KINGDOM OF "SINGLE-CELLED" ORGANISMS
P2. All living things are either human or non-human.
(ERRRR OK... OR NON-FELINE, OR NON-FUNGI...EXTRANEOUS PREMISE)
P3. A fetus is made of cells.
(OK.... EXTRANEOUS PREMISE AS WELL THE MAJORITY OF ORGANISMS HAVE CELLS. )
P4. A fetus is not non-human.
(FALSE... MAMMALS HAVE FETUSES. DEFINITION:The unborn young of a viviparous vertebrate having a basic structural resemblance to the adult animal.)
C1. Therefore, a fetus is living and human.
( CONCLUSION DOES NOT FOLLOW. NOT ALL FETUSES ARE HUMAN. FURTHER THE DEFINITION FOR FETUSES IN TERMS OF HUMANS IS RESERVED FOR DEVELOPMENT AFTER 8 WEEKS NOT AT CONCEPTION)

P5. A living human is an individual if it has 23 pairs of chromosomes.
(FALSE. HUMANS EXIST THAT DO NOT HAVE 23 CHROMOSOMES. IE: DOWNS SYNDROME (2% OF POPULATION) AND TURNER SYNDROME (1.5% OF POPULATION))
P6. To murder is to deliberately bring about the end of life of a human individual.
(BASED ON SOCIETAL LAWS WHICH VARY...YES. IN WAR...NO... AS ACCEPTABLE CAPITAL PUNISHMENT...NO.....MURDER REQUIRES A SPECIAL DEFINITION WHICH IS NOT SPECIFIC TO THE ENDING OF "LIFE" RATHER THE ENDING OF LIFE IS PERMITTED BASED ON ACCEPTABLE SOCIETAL PRACTICES).
P7. A fetus is living and human (by C1 and P1) and has 23 pairs of chromosomes.
((FALSE PER ABOVE)
P8. Abortion is the deliberate ending of life of a fetus.
(FALSE. ABORTIONS CAN BE SPONTANEOUS AND NATURAL AND UNPREVENTABLE)
C2. Therefore, abortion is murder.
(CONCLUSION DOES NOT FOLLOW WITHOUT AFFORDING SPECIAL PRIVILEGES AND DEFINITIONS TO A HUMAN EMBRYO MORE THAN 8 WEEKS OLD)

Yeah, I know my argument isn't structured perfectly to allow for single-celled organisms or twins, but those things can be tweaked with some language modifications.

Agree that the argument has serious semantic errors. The argument you laid out requires specific definitions and scenarios to not be falsified and requires applying special privileges to humans. I know based on your dogmatic beliefs you don't have a problem doing that as opposed to applying the same logic to other organisms.

But based on the above, there is no proof, just the claim that killing a fetus of any type is murder.

 

[wizards8507]

Agree that the argument has serious semantic errors. The argument you laid out requires specific definitions and scenarios to not be falsified and requires applying special privileges to humans. I know based on your dogmatic beliefs you don't have a problem doing that as opposed to applying the same logic to other organisms.

But based on the above, there is no proof, just the claim that killing a fetus of any type is murder.

Many of your objections are logical fallacies. For example, I said "anything made of multiple living cells is alive." I did NOT say "only things made of multiple living cells are alive". It's a sufficient condition, not a necessary one. Same thing with the 23 chromosomes. I said "if," which is different than "if, and only if."

It's like if I said "if you're playing football, you're playing a sport." That's 100% true, even if baseball is also a sport. Saying "football is a sport" is not the same as saying "football is only a sport," just like "being made of multiple living cells means you're alive" is different than "only things made of multiple living cells are alive."

The rest of your objections contain similar logical errors.

 

[Cackalacky]

Many of your objections are logical fallacies. For example, I said "anything made of multiple living cells is alive." I did NOT say "only things made of multiple living cells are alive". It's a sufficient condition, not a necessary one. Same thing with the 23 chromosomes. I said "if," which is different than "if, and only if."

It's like if I said "if you're playing football, you're playing a sport." That's 100% true, even if baseball is also a sport. Saying "football is a sport" is not the same as saying "football is only a sport," just like "being made of multiple living cells means you're alive" is different than "only things made of multiple living cells are alive."

The rest of your objections contain similar logical errors.

The errors are in your premises and conclusions as well as your unstated assumptions. I simply falsified all of the statements because they were falsifiable. If you want them to be correct you need to clearly state your assumptions and correct your use of certain words and definitions. The point I was making is that your premises are not valid with out affording special privileges to humans which you did as an assumption. What you did not provide are your assumptions that human life is elevated above other forms of life, among others. I pointed out that your argument was false outside of those assumptions.

Your premises contain very explicit statements. All fetuses are not non-human." That is quite clearly wrong. "Anything made of multiple cells is alive". That is false. A blood clot is made up of multiple cells. Fat deposits are made up of multiple cells. Neither of those are required to be living or distinctly human.

 

[connor_in]

 

[Cackalacky]

When words are scarce they are seldom spent in vain.
William Shakespeare

Words without thoughts never to heaven go.
William Shakespeare

We are masters of the unsaid words, but slaves of those we let slip out.
Winston Churchill

But if thought corrupts language, language can also corrupt thought.
George Orwell, 1984

A vocabulary of truth and simplicity will be of service throughout your life.
Winston Churchill

The great enemy of clear language is insincerity. When there is a gap between one’s real and one’s declared aims, one turns, as it were, instinctively to long words and exhausted idioms, like a cuttlefish squirting out ink.
George Orwell

We lay aside letters never to read them again, and at last we destroy them out of discretion, and so disappears the most beautiful, the most immediate breath of life, irrecoverable for ourselves and for others.
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Don’t use words too big for the subject. Don’t say infinitely when you mean very; otherwise you’ll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite.
C. S. Lewis

WORDS MATTER.

 

[ACamp1900]

Word.

 

[GoIrish41]

Carly Fiorina appears to have come down with a case of Clintonitis.

Fiorina Spins a New Lie, and Her Issues With Truth Look Compulsive | Eric Schmeltzer

 

[connor_in]

 

[BGIF]

What's the difference between dying because you can't breathe on your own and dying because you can't feed yourself? They feel like two sides of the same coin.

One takes a matter of minutes; the other can take days or longer.

 

[Cackalacky]

Ben Carson argued evolution was 'encouraged by' Satan | MSNBC

Lol. He is verbatim quoting Discovery Institute bull shit.. What a child. He is clear proof that you do not have to be intelligent to perform neuroscience.