[NFL] vBook: Colts vs Patriots (Deflategate)

[Irish#1]

One theory I've seen floated is a reduction to 1-2 games, and an injunction filed by Brady. He would play week 1 (vs. Steelers) and then drop the injunction and take his 1-2 game suspension for Bills/Jags in Weeks 2-3, or just Jacksonville in week 3 if it's a 1-game suspension. They have a bye in week 4, so the timing would work well.

The best way for everyone to save face is to drop it to 1-game for failure to fully comply with the investigation with an agreement that Brady can take the suspension via injunction for week 3 against Jacksonville State.

The best way for everyone to save face is to drop it to 2-games for failure to fully comply and server it in weeks 1 and 2.

 

[ACamp1900]

haha... spoken like a true Pat's fan. lol

So you think that issuing suspension on what opponent they play in a given week is a good idea?

Actually I'm all for this, everyone in the league will miss playing the Browns and it may actually equate to about 3-4 extra wins this season.....

 

[irishfan]

haha... spoken like a true Pat's fan. lol

So you think that issuing suspension on what opponent they play in a given week is a good idea?

Haha lol indeed. There is no good idea. This entire thing spiraled out of control from the start there was never going to be a good result.

I said that the 1-game suspension at this point is the win-win for everyone. No one wants this to go to federal court, probably the NFL more so than Brady. Their track record in court is terrible, and a lot of it is because all the player has to do is prove that he was treated and punished unfairly. It's not exactly hard to prove that for Brady. The case is probably 50/50.

Goodell already looks like a hero with fans and owners who dislike the Patriots. If he goes to court and loses, it's another player discipline loss for him. And it opens up huge scrutiny regarding the Patriots' team penalties. Dropping it 1-game and saying its due to failure to comply by not handing over the phone allows him to still be the powerful commission who suspended Brady and took picks from the Pats.

For Brady, a drop to 1 game that is cited for failing to hand over the cell phone as opposed to knowledge of cheating is a big win. He doesn't want to go to court. It's a major distraction and it's probably 50/50 he doesn't win the appeal. This lets him save face.

1-game for failure to comply is the safe way to go for both parties.

And the injunction thing is BS but it's something he could do and I wouldn't be surprised at all if this is something Kraft/Goodell have spoken about.

 

[woolybug25]

Haha lol indeed. There is no good idea. This entire thing spiraled out of control from the start there was never going to be a good result.

I said that the 1-game suspension at this point is the win-win for everyone. No one wants this to go to federal court, probably the NFL more so than Brady. Their track record in court is terrible, and a lot of it is because all the player has to do is prove that he was treated and punished unfairly. It's not exactly hard to prove that for Brady. The case is probably 50/50.

Goodell already looks like a hero with fans and owners who dislike the Patriots. If he goes to court and loses, it's another player discipline loss for him. And it opens up huge scrutiny regarding the Patriots' team penalties. Dropping it 1-game and saying its due to failure to comply by not handing over the phone allows him to still be the powerful commission who suspended Brady and took picks from the Pats.

For Brady, a drop to 1 game that is cited for failing to hand over the cell phone as opposed to knowledge of cheating is a big win. He doesn't want to go to court. It's a major distraction and it's probably 50/50 he doesn't win the appeal. This lets him save face.

1-game for failure to comply is the safe way to go for both parties.

And the injunction thing is BS but it's something he could do and I wouldn't be surprised at all if this is something Kraft/Goodell have spoken about.

It's interesting, because a precedent will be set either way. Goodell can fold like he has before, and it could be the straw that broke the camel's back. Players will continue walking all over him and he'll be one step closer to stepping down. He could not fold, then have to go to court.

Either way, I think Goodell should seriously considering putting a board together to make these decisions. He can sign off on them, but he is jumble-fuqing everything he touches lately.

When is this supposed to be announced?

 

[irishfan]

It's interesting, because a precedent will be set either way. Goodell can fold like he has before, and it could be the straw that broke the camel's back. Players will continue walking all over him and he'll be one step closer to stepping down. He could not fold, then have to go to court.

Either way, I think Goodell should seriously considering putting a board together to make these decisions. He can sign off on them, but he is jumble-fuqing everything he touches lately.

When is this supposed to be announced?

Some Boston radio guy who knew when the Wells Report was coming way beforehand has said today. Schefter was on the radio and said end of July was his guess a little while ago, but he admitted he had no clue.

 

[Irish#1]

I'd like to see Goodell stand his ground and call Brady's bluff, but that's not going to happen.

 

[wizards8507]

I'd like to see Goodell stand his ground and call Brady's bluff, but that's not going to happen.

I think he'd look extra bad if he did all his caving on the domestic abuse cases and then finally decides to stand his ground on deflated footballs.

 

[irishfan]

Details of Tom Brady’s potential lawsuit against NFL; Patriots QB could possibly start Week 1 - The Washington Post

Good breakdown on why he'd sue and how to get an injunction:

“If they get to federal court, the whole procedure, the question is whether it was arbitrary and capacious,” said Alan Milstein, the lawyer who represented Maurice Clarett in his fight against the NFL. “It seems fairly clear it was.

“The commissioner, I thought, really made a poor choice in taking part – basically trying to become part of this arbitration. The best argument Brady has is that due process was lacking and the hearing was unfair. The best evidence is that the commissioner was part of this thing.”

If Brady gets suspended and sues, the NFLPA would file its challenge in either a Minnesota or Massachusetts court, the person said. Minnesota is perceived as a pro-labor court system, and a hearing in Massachusetts would serve as a home game of sorts for Brady.

Any appeal in federal court would include a request for an injunction to delay any suspension until a decision is reached. Essentially, Brady and the NFLPA would ask that the court freeze the ban until the case ends. The bar to attain an injunction is low – lawyers would only need to show that Brady had been caused “irreparable harm” by the NFL’s decision.

And good breakdown on what Brady will argue and how he can win:

But the NFLPA believes it has a strong argument, already being prepared, based primarily on five points, which an NLFPA source laid out.

• The NFL policy for handling equipment in the NFL is in the club manual and pertains to club personnel, not players. The NFLPA would argue that the NFL suspended Brady four games under a policy that doesn’t apply to him.

“That’s an excellent argument,” Milstein said.

• The Wells Report, the investigation on which the NFL based its suspension, alleged Brady was “at least generally aware” that footballs had been tampered. The NFLPA would argue that the “general awareness” standard has no legal merit – either Wells found direct evidence, or he didn’t.

• The NFLPA would argue Brady – given the rules in the club manual did apply to him – received a punishment without precedence. Under the collective bargaining agreement, players have a right to know specific punishment for specific violations.

• The NFLPA plans to cite a specific example in oral arguments in an effort to prove Brady’s suspension was arbitrary. Last year, the league caught the Minnesota Vikings tampering with footballs by placing them in a dryer, a violation of the club manual. The team, the NFLPA source said, received a letter from the league and no further reprimand.

• The NFLPA would mount an argument against the procedure the Wells Report used to measure the inflation and deflation of footballs, saying there was no previous standard.

Because of how federal courts view arbitration hearings and rulings made in private venues, such as sports leagues, Brady’s best chance at winning a potential challenge in court might be the NFLPA’s assertion Goodell himself was unfit to serve as the arbiter of Brady’s appeal. The NFL announced that Executive Vice President Troy Vincent made the initial ruling against Brady. Goodell insisted he could arbitrate independently of Vincent’s decision. The NFL will argue that Goodell had input in the initial decision and was therefore a biased arbiter.

“Definitely start with that,” Milstein said. “Everybody knew he should have bowed out. For the life of me, I can’t figure out why – it was like a public decision he made, he’s going to be judge and jury.”

Federal courts rarely reverse rulings, even if they find fault with how arbitrators arrived at the ruling. But the reversals almost always come because the court sees an issue with the arbitration process itself. And so, if the NFLPA can prove that Goodell judged Brady’s appeal with bias, the suit could win.

 

[irishfan]

5 days for Troy Vincent to rule on a 243-page report. One month and counting for Goodell to rule on the appeal...nothing to see here.

6 days until Training Camp also...

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/roger-...e-has-become-three-ring-circus-063247603.html

At halftime of that game, referee Walt Anderson had taken some convoluted measurements that came in with a wide range of data, many of them not particularly out of the norm. That's in part because of natural gas law, in part because this could in no way be considered any place for accurate scientific work and in part because Anderson used separate, and wildly different, gauges to take the data.
At that point the NFL should have realized that this case was a loser. Suspicious district attorneys have to do this all the time and just refuse to prosecute. Even if the league thought the Pats were up to something, generally you have to have some kind of decent evidence.

Besides, the NFL had never in its history cared about the inflation level of footballs, even in a league that loves creating rules for all known circumstances. It has no idea how footballs are naturally affected by various weather elements or contact. It never dawned on the league to care until an untimely episode occurred right before the Super Bowl.

A good commissioner, or a good leader of any organization, would have bailed, squashed, protected and vowed to solve the problem going forward. No way this is a scandal in the NBA or even in the old NFL.

Fine the Pats for lack of proper pregame protocol because a guy took the footballs into the bathroom. Then call it case closed.

Instead after a little more than a day of collecting basic evidence and interviews, ESPN coincidentally (or not) ran with a bombshell report that 11 of the 12 Patriots footballs were underinflated by more than two pounds per square inch and, conversely, none of the Indianapolis Colts' measured as such.

It was damning.

It was also completely false.

None of the Patriots footballs were so deflated and only four Colts footballs were even measured, so that didn't matter. Someone at Goodell's office may or may not have leaked it – the league office appears to be the only entity at the time with the info. Even if it didn't, the league, equipped with the truth, failed to either refute it or just pass the info onto the Patriots. The league even fed the Pats similarly frightening, and inaccurate, data.

Essentially, whoever leaked it to ESPN counted on the report being so big that the public would believe it no matter what came out later.

It worked.

ESPN has never retracted it even though the actual stats show it breathlessly ran with bad info. The NFL has declined comment on it. Ted Wells didn't investigate how such a media leak could occur, even though he printed the ball measurements that proved it a lie.

Heck, Wells even decided to not take Anderson's word for which gauge he used on which measurements and instead just decided the ref misremembered.

 

[Irish YJ]

I continue to see all this convoluted dribble while folks continue to ignore the obvious and the common sense.

I'm just ready for this to be done already.

 

[irishfan]

I continue to see all this convoluted dribble while folks continue to ignore the obvious and the common sense.

I'm just ready for this to be done already.

Everyone is, but it's not going anywhere when a 4-game suspension was handed down. Equipment violations are written in the rules as a team violation and not a player violation. The Chargers were fined 25k for putting stickem on a towel. The Panthers were caught on TV heating up footballs on the sidelines and got a warning. This punishment (and the report showed that the balls deflated naturally) is nowhere in line with past penalties for similar issues.

Most of the "obvious" proof against the team can be explained away. The worst offenses are the equipment guy going into the bathroom pre-game (looks terrible, but the Report showed the footballs deflated as expected with temperature drop, so it's more of a pre-game equipment violation than anything) and that Brady refused to hand over his phone which has resulted in a 25k fine in other cases. Neither one of those two things warrant the penalties.

 

[Irish YJ]

Everyone is, but it's not going anywhere when a 4-game suspension was handed down. Equipment violations are written in the rules as a team violation and not a player violation. The Chargers were fined 25k for putting stickem on a towel. The Panthers were caught on TV heating up footballs on the sidelines and got a warning. This punishment (and the report showed that the balls deflated naturally) is nowhere in line with past penalties for similar issues.

Most of the "obvious" proof against the team can be explained away. The worst offenses are the equipment guy going into the bathroom pre-game (looks terrible, but the Report showed the footballs deflated as expected with temperature drop, so it's more of a pre-game equipment violation than anything) and that Brady refused to hand over his phone which has resulted in a 25k fine in other cases. Neither one of those two things warrant the penalties.

Need to take off about 15lbs before I hit the beach the week of labor day. Going on a diet. Changing my handle to deflator until then.

 

[ACamp1900]

Have they banned that cheating bastard for life yet??

 

[Irish#1]

ESPN reported this morning that Brady made some offer to settle with a reduced number of games and it was rejected. NFL is sticking to four games.

 

[irishfan]

ESPN reported this morning that Brady made some offer to settle with a reduced number of games and it was rejected. NFL is sticking to four games.

I still think it gets cut to 2 games, and then god knows what happens in federal court. I know one incident is on-field and one is off-field, but the NFL doesn't want the PR fiasco that comes with Brady/Hardy having the same penalty.

 

[irishfan]

Sal Paolantonio gave his thoughts on Deflategate, Tom Brady appeal - New England Patriots Blog - ESPN

"Your old man used to say what? If you don't know what to do, do nothing. I think behind the scenes they don't know what to do. The bottom line is that the NFL's attorneys have most likely, from what I've been told, gone to the commissioner and said, 'We can't come up with a ruling that is defensible in court.' The NFL, I believe, thinks it's going to lose in court. And if they can't come up with a ruling on this appeal that is defensible in court, then they are going to look awful silly.

"That's the rock, but the hard place is if they do vacate the suspension and exonerate Brady, then of course you're totally undermining Troy Vincent -- your vice president for game-day operations -- and you're undermining the authority of the very commissioner making the ruling, since he was the one that signed off on the initial four-game suspension in the first place.

"Not only that, add in that you’re angering some of the hardcore owners out there, and I know who they are and I'm going to name them right now -- Jim Irsay of the Colts, Steve Bisciotti of the Ravens, and others in the AFC who believe that the Patriots have gotten away with murder for years and have not been publicly punished properly.

"So I don't know what the league is going to do ... the [NFL Players Association] is trying to get ahead of the news story, trying to force the issue, and trying to have a pre-emptive strike here.

"What do I mean by that? Basically, [they're] showing the world and the commissioner's office publicly 'We're going to court if we don't like the outcome.' They're basically telling the lawyers, 'You better pony up, because when we go to court, we're going to win.'"

 

[Irish YJ]

personally, if it goes to court, looking forward to people getting subpoenaed and having to testify under oath.

 

[IrishLax]

The obvious solution is to reduce the suspension, admit there isn't enough hard science, but still suspend him 2 games strictly for not cooperating with the investigation and lying.

 

[pkt77242]

The obvious solution is to reduce the suspension, admit there isn't enough hard science, but still suspend him 2 games strictly for not cooperating with the investigation and lying.

Agreed, but what makes you think that the NFL will make an intelligent decision?

 

[irishfan]

The obvious solution is to reduce the suspension, admit there isn't enough hard science, but still suspend him 2 games strictly for not cooperating with the investigation and lying.

That's what I would do as well if I were him at this point, since in theory that would still appease the owners/fans, but even that punishment would probably get brought to court.

Peter King from SI has said he thinks Goodell should delay the suspension until after the 2015 season and have the NFL monitor PSI this season to see if the pressure drop is consistent with teams in cold weather this season as it was for the Patriots in the AFC Championship Game. That probably makes the most sense, but I'm not sure how realistic it is.

Why Tom Brady Will Win If He Sues Roger Goodell And The NFL Over Deflategate - Forbes

This article is pretty good. Whole process could drag out forever if both parties are stubborn. Goodell is in a pretty crappy position almost no matter what he does.

 

[Irish#1]

Why is the NFL taking a hard stand if they don't feel good about their position. An article on SI makes it read like the NFL is in good shape, but Brady and the NFLPA will file suit, but not over deflating balls.

From the article:
"Brady’s case would be about process, not Deflategate, and a judge, not a jury, would decide the case.

Keep in mind, Brady’s case would not center on the underlying accusations against Brady and the Patriots. Also, neither Brady nor the NFL would share evidence with each other, and no jury would be empaneled to render a decision. Instead, a judge would hear legal arguments about the lawfulness of the process used by the NFL to judge Brady."

To me, this tells me the NFL has Brady by the "balls" (pun intended) and he knows it. Filing suit over the process may be their only way to fight this as they know they can't win over deflategate. Like an uninsured driver getting hit. "Yes your honor, I did hit his car, but he doesn't have insurance and shouldn't have been driving."

 

[irishfan]

Why is the NFL taking a hard stand if they don't feel good about their position. An article on SI makes it read like the NFL is in good shape, but Brady and the NFLPA will file suit, but not over deflating balls.

From the article:
"Brady’s case would be about process, not Deflategate, and a judge, not a jury, would decide the case.

Keep in mind, Brady’s case would not center on the underlying accusations against Brady and the Patriots. Also, neither Brady nor the NFL would share evidence with each other, and no jury would be empaneled to render a decision. Instead, a judge would hear legal arguments about the lawfulness of the process used by the NFL to judge Brady."

To me, this tells me the NFL has Brady by the "balls" (pun intended) and he knows it. Filing suit over the process may be their only way to fight this as they know they can't win over deflategate. Like an uninsured driver getting hit. "Yes your honor, I did hit his car, but he doesn't have insurance and shouldn't have been driving."

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">If I was Brady's attorney, I'd tell him he has solid chance in court but I'd warn not a slam dunk + may take months. <a href="https://t.co/7kx4sONQzp">https://t.co/7kx4sONQzp</a></p>— Michael McCann (@McCannSportsLaw) <a href="https://twitter.com/McCannSportsLaw/status/625749697475543040">July 27, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

I don't think they have him by the balls by any means, and neither does McCann from SI.

Most things having to do with the law go way over my head, but according to McCann, Brady's only course of action is to challenge the process rather than the evidence itself. I have yet to find one journalist who thinks the Wells Report's "science" would hold up in any court, but for whatever reason (maybe CBA related?) he can only challenge the Wells Report's findings if he files for defamation which would be impossible to prove.

He has a solid argument going after the process: Goodell's bias, the uncorrected false media leaks, Troy Vincent rendering the initial decision, the fact the NFL changed the football-handling process due to it's flaws, wording used against Brady that is supposed to be used for team violations according to the CBA, the long delay in the appeal, the fact that equipment issues are team-related and not player-related, the inconsistency in penalties (25k for Chargers stickem towel, nothing for Panthers heating up footballs, Favre 50k for not handing over cell phone), etc.

Sal Pal at ESPN reported that the NFL lawyers have told Goodell no suspension will stick in court. I just think he doesn't know what to do. If the NFL had Brady by the balls, they wouldn't have waited this long after his appeal. They would have stuck with 4 games already.

 

[irishfan]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">I’m hearing that Brady’s 4-gm suspension will likely be upheld by the NFL.</p>— Stephen A Smith (@stephenasmith) <a href="https://twitter.com/stephenasmith/status/626030539049463808">July 28, 2015</a></blockquote>
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[Irish YJ]

SAS also said he heard that Brady didn't just refuse to share his phone, he destroyed it...

Can't wait for the subpoenas to start flying. Folks testifying under oath could be a game changer.

Also stated that after spygate, the provisions of the settlement/penalty included a provision that Belidick could be banned for life if found attached to further cheating.

Should be entertaining

 

[Irish#1]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">If I was Brady's attorney, I'd tell him he has solid chance in court but I'd warn not a slam dunk + may take months. <a href="https://t.co/7kx4sONQzp">https://t.co/7kx4sONQzp</a></p>— Michael McCann (@McCannSportsLaw) <a href="https://twitter.com/McCannSportsLaw/status/625749697475543040">July 27, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

I don't think they have him by the balls by any means, and neither does McCann from SI.

Most things having to do with the law go way over my head, but according to McCann, Brady's only course of action is to challenge the process rather than the evidence itself. I have yet to find one journalist who thinks the Wells Report's "science" would hold up in any court, but for whatever reason (maybe CBA related?) he can only challenge the Wells Report's findings if he files for defamation which would be impossible to prove.

He has a solid argument going after the process: Goodell's bias, the uncorrected false media leaks, Troy Vincent rendering the initial decision, the fact the NFL changed the football-handling process due to it's flaws, wording used against Brady that is supposed to be used for team violations according to the CBA, the long delay in the appeal, the fact that equipment issues are team-related and not player-related, the inconsistency in penalties (25k for Chargers stickem towel, nothing for Panthers heating up footballs, Favre 50k for not handing over cell phone), etc.

Sal Pal at ESPN reported that the NFL lawyers have told Goodell no suspension will stick in court. I just think he doesn't know what to do. If the NFL had Brady by the balls, they wouldn't have waited this long after his appeal. They would have stuck with 4 games already.

I think they must have him where they want him. Otherwise, why not go to court over deflategate and not "the process"?

 

[irishfan]

I think they must have him where they want him. Otherwise, why not go to court over deflategate and not "the process"?

Like I said, from what I've gathered online (and I know nothing about law) I believe that there is wording in the CBA that does not allow him to challenge the Wells Report unless he files for defamation which will be impossible to prove. He is only allowed to challenge the process for whatever reason.

And, to answer your other point, Belichick was named nowhere in the Report. If they're truly screwed regarding texts, there is no way in hell Brady is going to go to federal court and risk Belichick's career.

I also highly doubt Brady would have destroyed his phone since anyone with above-average intelligence should know that that does not destroy the texts on there....Stephen A seemed to be hedging a bit with his whole report.

 

[Irish#1]

Like I said, from what I've gathered online (and I know nothing about law) I believe that there is wording in the CBA that does not allow him to challenge the Wells Report unless he files for defamation which will be impossible to prove. He is only allowed to challenge the process for whatever reason.

And, to answer your other point, Belichick was named nowhere in the Report. If they're truly screwed regarding texts, there is no way in hell Brady is going to go to federal court and risk Belichick's career.

I also highly doubt Brady would have destroyed his phone since anyone with above-average intelligence should know that that does not destroy the texts on there....Stephen A seemed to be hedging a bit with his whole report.

I don't think I said anything about Bellicheat or Tommy destroying his phone.

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

Like I said, from what I've gathered online (and I know nothing about law) I believe that there is wording in the CBA that does not allow him to challenge the Wells Report unless he files for defamation which will be impossible to prove. He is only allowed to challenge the process for whatever reason.

And, to answer your other point, Belichick was named nowhere in the Report. If they're truly screwed regarding texts, there is no way in hell Brady is going to go to federal court and risk Belichick's career.

I also highly doubt Brady would have destroyed his phone since anyone with above-average intelligence should know that that does not destroy the texts on there....Stephen A seemed to be hedging a bit with his whole report.

Are you suggesting Brady meets or exceeds average intelligence?

 

[Rhode Irish]

I think they must have him where they want him. Otherwise, why not go to court over deflategate and not "the process"?

Because an NFL investigation and resultant discipline aren't within the jurisdictional purview of a federal court. Whether the league violated the CBA (a contract between the League and the players) is. So the action can only proceed on those grounds.

I think Tom Brady would welcome a judicial review of the substance of this case. The NFL did not prove its allegations against Brady in the Wells report, and even if it had the punishment that followed was plainly absurd and was not remotely commensurate with the alleged infraction. Any neutral party - whether it be a federal court or an independent arbitrator - would rule in Brady's favor, which is why Goodell heard the appeal himself. If anyone else had heard it, he would have lost and the suspension would have been completely eliminated. Unfortunately, the only avenue available to Brady is to challenge on procedural grounds - specifically that the procedure violated the terms of the CBA.

 

[irishfan]

I don't think I said anything about Bellicheat or Tommy destroying his phone.

My bad. I'm trying to do about 10 things at once right now and misread who had posted what. More probable than not I am an idiot this morning.