[NFL] vBook: Colts vs Patriots (Deflategate)

[irishfan]

Hypothetically, let's say OJs trial had all the same evidence, except for the a text conversation to an acquaintance in which OJ refers to himself as "the murder".

Are you trying to suggest that this hypothetical additional evidence wouldn't be enough to tip the jury towards the opposite conviction?

If memory serves me correctly, there was a dead body in that trial. There was no proof of deflated footballs...in fact they were at the correct measurements at halftime. So, I can't really compare that murder trial to whether or not the Patriots may have deflated half a pound of PSI.

 

[Irish#1]

If memory serves me correctly, there was a dead body in that trial. There was no proof of deflated footballs...in fact they were at the correct measurements at halftime. So, I can't really compare that murder trial to whether or not the Patriots may have deflated half a pound of PSI.

This is exactly why we can't take your word. There were two bodies! lol

 

[irishfan]

This is exactly why we can't take your word. There were two bodies! lol

Haha true! Dammit.

 

[ab2cmiller]

irishfan,

Just to clarify, which is more in agreement with your thoughts on deflategate?

1. Do you truly believe that the Patriots did nothing wrong as it pertains to deflategate?

or

2. Do you believe that they probably did something wrong but you are arguing that since they don't have the "smoking gun", they shouldn't be punished?

 

[irishfan]

irishfan,

Just to clarify, which is more in agreement with your thoughts on deflategate?

1. Do you truly believe that the Patriots did nothing wrong as it pertains to deflategate?

or

2. Do you believe that they probably did something wrong but you are arguing that since they don't have the "smoking gun", they shouldn't be punished?

I lean towards 2. There's enough in there with the texts and the guy going to the bathroom with the footballs that make me think something probably occured. The intial reports made it seem like every football was deflated 2+ PSI, but I'd guess the guy deflated about 3-5 of them by .5 PSI based on the halftime measurements.

At the same time, this "deflator" doesn't travel to away games, hadn't snuck into the bathroom in other home games (they handed over all security videos), and there were texts showing that the balls were at 16 PSI for week 6 so I don't believe this was an every week occurence by any means. The texts show that Brady was very very upset after the week 6 game with the overinflated balls, so maybe from then on they started deflating them for home games? I duno. It doesn't make any sense for them to try this out for the first time at the AFC Champ game, but, at the same time, this guy wasn't taking the footballs into the bathroom before any other home games and I'm just assuming no one would be dumb enough to use a needle on the sideline. So I'm not really sure when they would have been deflated. I'm sure Brady (and other QBs since Rodgers said he does) are handing in underinflated or overinflated balls pre-game every week hoping they don't get fixed by the refs.

My main issue is that the NFL has never cared about this issue (giving a warning to the Vikings and Panthers when they were heating up balls on the sideline this season), and clearly knew nothing about PSI prior to this. Any ref who has spoken since this incident has said this is not an issue they take serioulsy or even know how to deal with. I also think this is such a miniscule issue that is blown out of proportion because it the Patriots (more so by media and other fans) and the Goodell/Kraft relationship that the NFL felt compelled to come down hard on them. I just think every team is doing some sort of cheating, and while it's not right, it doesn't deserve anything more than a fine and a loss of a late pick. The Falcons pumped in crowd noise the last two seasons which I think is worse than a deflated football and they got a slap on the wrist.

 

[ND NYC]

(it wont all parties too smart for that) but I hope this could somehow go to court.
cant imagine having subpoena power/discovery on brady/kraft/other patriots personnel.

who knows what they might find.

careful what you wish for irishfan...

 

[pkt77242]

I lean towards 2. There's enough in there with the texts and the guy going to the bathroom with the footballs that make me think something probably occured. The intial reports made it seem like every football was deflated 2+ PSI, but I'd guess the guy deflated about 3-5 of them by .5 PSI based on the halftime measurements.

At the same time, this "deflator" doesn't travel to away games, hadn't snuck into the bathroom in other home games (they handed over all security videos), and there were texts showing that the balls were at 16 PSI for week 6 so I don't believe this was an every week occurence by any means. The texts show that Brady was very very upset after the week 6 game with the overinflated balls, so maybe from then on they started deflating them for home games? I duno. It doesn't make any sense for them to try this out for the first time at the AFC Champ game, but, at the same time, this guy wasn't taking the footballs into the bathroom before any other home games and I'm just assuming no one would be dumb enough to use a needle on the sideline. So I'm not really sure when they would have been deflated. I'm sure Brady (and other QBs since Rodgers said he does) are handing in underinflated or overinflated balls pre-game every week hoping they don't get fixed by the refs.

My main issue is that the NFL has never cared about this issue (giving a warning to the Vikings and Panthers when they were heating up balls on the sideline this season), and clearly knew nothing about PSI prior to this. Any ref who has spoken since this incident has said this is not an issue they take serioulsy or even know how to deal with. I also think this is such a miniscule issue that is blown out of proportion because it the Patriots (more so by media and other fans) and the Goodell/Kraft relationship that the NFL felt compelled to come down hard on them. I just think every team is doing some sort of cheating, and while it's not right, it doesn't deserve anything more than a fine and a loss of a late pick. The Falcons pumped in crowd noise the last two seasons which I think is worse than a deflated football and they got a slap on the wrist.

Just to set the facts straight Minnesota wasn't warming their balls.
Actually, Vikings didn’t warm footballs in November | ProFootballTalk

 

[irishfan]

(it wont all parties too smart for that) but I hope this could somehow go to court.
cant imagine having subpoena power/discovery on brady/kraft/other patriots personnel.

who knows what they might find.

careful what you wish for irishfan...

It will be interesting to see what happens here. Goodell seems to be calling Brady's bluff and is daring him to have it moved to court. If Brady pushes this to court, the NFL would also have to give up their records. Goodell, Vicnent, Kensil, Blandino, and many others would have to hand over phone/email.

If Brady accepts any sort of reduced suspension, it means there is incriminating evidence out there. If Brady gets it to a neutral court, I'm predicting Goodell will lose his job as the owners will vote him out after the case.

 

[irishfan]

Just to set the facts straight Minnesota wasn't warming their balls.
Actually, Vikings didn’t warm footballs in November | ProFootballTalk

My bad, hadn't seen this. Teddy is a stud anyway, he could be throwing a beachball and be fine.

 

[irishfan]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">NFL & Patriots are attempting to resolve their differences without appeal through "back-channel conversations." (via <a href="https://twitter.com/AdamSchefter">@AdamSchefter</a>)</p>— SportsCenter (@SportsCenter) <a href="https://twitter.com/SportsCenter/status/600439765029236736">May 18, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Translation: Kraft is asking Goodell if he wants to stake his job on the Wells Report.

 

[Irish YJ]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">NFL & Patriots are attempting to resolve their differences without appeal through "back-channel conversations." (via <a href="https://twitter.com/AdamSchefter">@AdamSchefter</a>)</p>— SportsCenter (@SportsCenter) <a href="https://twitter.com/SportsCenter/status/600439765029236736">May 18, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Translation: Kraft is asking Goodell if he wants to stake his job on the Wells Report.

 

[yankeehater]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">NFL & Patriots are attempting to resolve their differences without appeal through "back-channel conversations." (via <a href="https://twitter.com/AdamSchefter">@AdamSchefter</a>)</p>— SportsCenter (@SportsCenter) <a href="https://twitter.com/SportsCenter/status/600439765029236736">May 18, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Translation: Kraft is asking Goodell if he wants to stake his job on the Wells Report.

Seriously, I have heard several "experts" go on radio shows and suggest Brady should announce his retirement because of this and walk away from the game. They also stated if he did this Goodell would be fired the next day.

 

[Irish#1]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">NFL & Patriots are attempting to resolve their differences without appeal through "back-channel conversations." (via <a href="https://twitter.com/AdamSchefter">@AdamSchefter</a>)</p>— SportsCenter (@SportsCenter) <a href="https://twitter.com/SportsCenter/status/600439765029236736">May 18, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Translation: Kraft is asking Goodell if he wants to stake his job on the Wells Report.[/QUOTE]

I guess that depends on which side of the fence you're on. It could also mean the Pats don't feel as good about their position as they have been letting on and want to minimize the damage. Keep in mind this has nothing to do with Brady and his suspension. This is strictly about the fine and loss of picks. This could just as well translate to: Pats are willing to let Brady take his lumps because he was doing this by himself and they knew it.

 

[irishfan]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">NFL & Patriots are attempting to resolve their differences without appeal through "back-channel conversations." (via <a href="https://twitter.com/AdamSchefter">@AdamSchefter</a>)</p>— SportsCenter (@SportsCenter) <a href="https://twitter.com/SportsCenter/status/600439765029236736">May 18, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Translation: Kraft is asking Goodell if he wants to stake his job on the Wells Report.[/QUOTE]

I guess that depends on which side of the fence you're on. It could also mean the Pats don't feel as good about their position as they have been letting on and want to minimize the damage. Keep in mind this has nothing to do with Brady and his suspension. This is strictly about the fine and loss of picks. This could just as well translate to: Pats are willing to let Brady take his lumps because he was doing this by himself and they knew it.

Yeah, I know this is separate from Brady. Although I think Goodell/Kraft coming to an agreement of some sort on the team penalties could make Goodell more likely to do the same with Brady.

It's just a bit of a weak stance from the NFL since the Patriots only options are to unnofically appeal (which the NFL doesn't even have to take seriously) and then to file a lawsuit, which from what I've read would have pretty much no chance of being successful. The NFL completely has the upperhand in regards to the team penalties so I'm surprised Goodell seems to be willing to talk.

From SI:

Unlike Brady, the Patriots have no collectively bargained right to an appeal. Their only source for appeal is to reach out to Goodell and hope he or a designate of his choosing revises the punishment. The Patriots are members of a franchise of leagues and are contractually bound to follow the NFL’s constitution and other legal instruments. The NFL’s constitution makes clear teams can’t take their grievances to court and that any attempt to do so would likely be futile.

In an appeal to Goodell, Kraft would implore the commissioner to reconsider the severity of the penalty. Kraft might ask other teams’ owners to weigh in privately, as well. Unfortunately for Kraft, this approach would likely fail. Goodell is now wedded to this historic penalty. If he reduces it, some would argue it is because of Goodell’s perceived close relationship with Kraft or because Kraft is powerful. Others would describe Goodell as weak and question why he would impose such a harsh penalty in the first place. Goodell lowering the Patriots penalty would also risk a slippery slope effect: it would create precedent for other teams’ owners to petition the commissioner for leniency.

Deflategate: What are Brady's, Patriots' options for fighting back? - NFL - SI.com

The team options for any action following this appeal are all lawsuits that have no chance, but are detailed in the article. It's actually pretty interesting stuff.

 

[Irish#1]

This begs the question.............Why protest so loudly and now want to work something out if you feel you have done nothing wrong? Why not take it to the executive committee, court of public opinion or file a lawsuit to at least get your position heard?

 

[irishfan]

This begs the question.............Why protest so loudly and now want to work something out if you feel you have done nothing wrong? Why not take it to the executive committee, court of public opinion or file a lawsuit to at least get your position heard?

The NFL has language in it's Constitution that make it pretty much impossible to file a lawsuit.

To be clear, none of these claims by Kraft would likely prevail. The NFL Constitution makes clear that ownership grievances are to be resolved internally and kept out of court. The NFL would petition any court in which Kraft sues to immediately dismiss the lawsuit on grounds that Kraft, like all NFL owners, contractually agreed to never sue the NFL and other owners. The NFL would probably succeed in making such an argument.

Also, not only did Kraft initially say he would accept the Deflategate punishment, but Kraft’s record and personality suggest it is extremely unlikely he would sue the NFL—an association in which he’s been an influential member for the last 21 years. Kraft suing the NFL would mean he’d be suing the 31 other ownership groups, some of whom include his close friends.

 

[wizards8507]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">"I am going to accept reluctantly... and we won't appeal." - Robert Kraft on Deflategate. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/LIVEonSC?src=hash">#LIVEonSC</a> <a href="http://t.co/GfRvUQye8j">pic.twitter.com/GfRvUQye8j</a></p>— SportsCenter (@SportsCenter) <a href="https://twitter.com/SportsCenter/status/600711338067894272">May 19, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[irishfan]

Playing nice to get the Brady suspension reduced or overturned. I'll be shocked if Brady isn't out there Week 1.

 

[Irish Insanity]

Playing nice to get the Brady suspension reduced or overturned. I'll be shocked if Brady isn't out there Week 1.

Puff puff pass. You don't willingly give up a 1st rounder or a mill. There's more proof that hasn't been released, I'd say possibly that shows a history of it. You take the $ hit and loss of a pick to keep the rest from getting out.

 

[irishfan]

Puff puff pass. You don't willingly give up a 1st rounder or a mill. There's more proof that hasn't been released, I'd say possibly that shows a history of it. You take the $ hit and loss of a pick to keep the rest from getting out.

Well, we'll know one way or another fairly soon I guess. And there was never anything Kraft could do about the team penalties barring a lawsuit which would be unprecedented. There isn't even an official appeal process for team penalties.

And my favorite conspiracy theory of all is that the Patriots have a history of deflating footballs...

 

[ACamp1900]

Well, we'll know one way or another fairly soon I guess. And there was never anything Kraft could do about the team penalties barring a lawsuit which would be unprecedented. There isn't even an official appeal process for team penalties.

And my favorite conspiracy theory of all is that the Patriots have a history of deflating footballs...

Is it your favorite because its the most valid????

 

[Irish YJ]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">NFL & Patriots are attempting to resolve their differences without appeal through "back-channel conversations." (via <a href="https://twitter.com/AdamSchefter">@AdamSchefter</a>)</p>— SportsCenter (@SportsCenter) <a href="https://twitter.com/SportsCenter/status/600439765029236736">May 18, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Translation: Kraft is asking Goodell if he wants to stake his job on the Wells Report.

lol

 

[Irish#1]

Well, we'll know one way or another fairly soon I guess. And there was never anything Kraft could do about the team penalties barring a lawsuit which would be unprecedented. There isn't even an official appeal process for team penalties.And my favorite conspiracy theory of all is that the Patriots have a history of deflating footballs...

You don't have to have precedent to file a lawsuit. If everything was on the up and up, why fire the two employees? Something smells fishy.

 

[Irish Insanity]

Well, we'll know one way or another fairly soon I guess. And there was never anything Kraft could do about the team penalties barring a lawsuit which would be unprecedented. There isn't even an official appeal process for team penalties.

And my favorite conspiracy theory of all is that the Patriots have a history of deflating footballs...

Is it your favorite because its the most valid????

No owner would willingly lose that much $ and a 1st round pic if they could show they were innocent. You must be forgetting about the backup that admitted that a few years ago when he was on the team it was known to be done for Brady.

 

[irishfan]

You don't have to have precedent to file a lawsuit. If everything was on the up and up, why fire the two employees? Something smells fishy.

For those asking why Patriots suspended two employees if those two did nothing wrong, as New England claims: NFL asked Pats to suspend them prior to discipline being handed down, per a league source in New York. New England obliged with the NFL's request.

per Schefter.

You don't have to have precedent to file one, but a lawsuit wouldn't have even gone through most likely. Again, from Sports Illustrated:

The NFL Constitution makes clear that ownership grievances are to be resolved internally and kept out of court. The NFL would petition any court in which Kraft sues to immediately dismiss the lawsuit on grounds that Kraft, like all NFL owners, contractually agreed to never sue the NFL and other owners. The NFL would probably succeed in making such an argument.

 

[nlroma1o]

Does this include they are accepting Bradys 4 game suspension?

 

[irishfan]

Does this include they are accepting Bradys 4 game suspension?

Nope. NFLPA has said that will still proceed as team/player penalties are completely separate.

 

[nlroma1o]

Nope. NFLPA has said that will still proceed as team/player penalties are completely separate.

Thanks for the clarification!

 

[Irish#1]

per Schefter.

You don't have to have precedent to file one, but a lawsuit wouldn't have even gone through most likely. Again, from Sports Illustrated:

"New England claims the NFL asked them to be suspended."

I get the bylaws and such. My point is simply, if you feel so strongly why not proceed with a lawsuit? Would it be heard? Maybe, maybe not, but it would go a long ways in demonstrating the Pats belief that they did nothing wrong and were not aware of any wrong doings. Why do criminals take plea agreements if they're innocent?

 

[irishfan]

"New England claims the NFL asked them to be suspended."

I get the bylaws and such. My point is simply, if you feel so strongly why not proceed with a lawsuit? Would it be heard? Maybe, maybe not, but it would go a long ways in demonstrating the Pats belief that they did nothing wrong and were not aware of any wrong doings. Why do criminals take plea agreements if they're innocent?

The "claim" you're quoting is referring to the part where Schefter says New England "claims" they did nothing wrong. Not about the employees being suspended as requested by the NFL. He even cites a league source in NY for his info.

The only thing to be gained from a lawsuit (which had no chance of even being heard) would be isolating Kraft from the rest of the owners. There are many committees that he is a part of among the owner group that he would lose the right to, not to mention I think he'd lose a lot of the respect he has among the owners as well. I'm sure he bluffed a lawsuit in Goodell's direction, but I think he cares more about keeping his power within the NFL than he does about winning over the public opinion (most of which do not want to won over by the Patriots).

His quick conference today seemed to be coming from someone who had made a deal with Goodell IMO.