[NFL] vBook: Colts vs Patriots (Deflategate)

[pkt77242]

So Kraft is the new Al Davis.. lol

In all seriousness, you had both player and staff conspiring to break the rules. That's a team, or organization failure no matter how you look at it. I think their history of skirting the rules played a big part in it as well.

As a fan of football, I wish they would have just taken their medicine and gone about their bad boy ways (Da Pats LOL). As a Colts fan, I'm glad their making a stink. I think the long term outcome will be more damaging to the Pats than the fine, suspension, and loss of draft picks.

Could be wrong, but you can see how the polls are trending from an opinion perspective. I also don't think Wells, or the NFL are stupid enough to totally shit the bed making a case they know could easily be overturned.

That is laughable. NFL suspensions that have been overturned or reduced in the Goodell era - Football - Boston.com

Goodell should have already been fired for incompetence.

 

[Irish#1]

From what I heard Wells say on the radio the other day, the Pats refused to grant access to an equipment person for another interview after new evidence came to light during the course of the investigation. Personally I think the penalty is just as much about the Pats' uncooperative attitude during the investigation as it is about the actual allegation. Plus their history as an organization with rule bending/breaking Would likely have factored in too. To sum it up, I don't see any reason for sympathy

I mentioned that before and agree. Much more about their past and the lack of cooperation.

IMO if Brady would have simply come out and admitted it up front the penalty would have been minor and no one would be talking about this.

 

[irishfan]

I mentioned that before and agree. Much more about their past and the lack of cooperation.

IMO if Brady would have simply come out and admitted it up front the penalty would have been minor and no one would be talking about this.

I know what you guys are saying, but, by rule, there was no lack of cooperation. Keep in mind this article has heavy NE-bias, but you can see where they are coming from a bit. The italicized was from the Pats response today:

4. Interviews without Representation

Patriots management had not yet been advised that an investigation had started, but Mr. McNally, having nothing to hide, talked freely to the League personnel without even asking if someone from the team should be there with him. The second and third interviews happened within the next several days. Again, Mr. McNally gave these interviews without any Patriots representative with him.

His phone was offered to League personnel for imaging, but they advised that they did not need his phone. (His phone data was later provided to the Wells investigators upon their request and prior to their interview with him.) At his third interview with League Security personnel, he was subjected to very aggressive questioning and demeaning assertions that he was lying when he denied any knowledge of improper football deflation.

McNally spoke with the NFL investigators three times without anyone from the Patriots with him. This is completely absurd, especially for a part time employee. If the league became hostile in their third meeting, then of course he wouldn't want to meet with them any more than he had to.

The icing on the cake, is that Wells and company had all of these texts prior to their meeting with McNally. Wells' team stated, "The interviews will be arranged so that, barring unanticipated circumstances, there will not be future multiple interviews of the same person." The Patriots did not deem Wells not reading his own information carefully enough as reason worthy of a second meeting, but were willing to relay individual questions if they wanted clarification.

Essentially, the Patriots were docked a 1st and 4th round pick, as well as $1 million because Wells wasn't a thorough reader.

And then, obviously Brady didn't hand over phone records, but, again, by rule he doesn't have to.

 

[irishfan]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Once again, NFL source tells me Roger Goodell will hear Tom Brady's appeal. This is really huge and unexpected development in case.</p>— mike freeman (@mikefreemanNFL) <a href="https://twitter.com/mikefreemanNFL/status/599037000683954176">May 15, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

He didn't have much of a choice. If a neutral judge overturned this, it would be another black eye for Goodell and probably would have been the end for him. He doesn't exactly look very good doing this, but too risky for him not to.

 

[Irish YJ]

buddy sent me this and several others.
couldn't resist...

 

[Irish YJ]

 

[Irish YJ]

 

[Irish YJ]

 

[johnnycando]

Bwhahahaha..

 

[Irish#1]

I know what you guys are saying, but, by rule, there was no lack of cooperation. Keep in mind this article has heavy NE-bias, but you can see where they are coming from a bit. The italicized was from the Pats response today:



And then, obviously Brady didn't hand over phone records, but, again, by rule he doesn't have to.

So when my mom told me to clean up my room and I didn't, that wasn't lack of cooperation? I'm pretty sure there wasn't a rule book in our house. lol

 

[Irish#1]

buddy sent me this and several others.
couldn't resist...

You didn't post the best one! lol

 

[Irish YJ]

You didn't post the best one! lol

same guy sent me that as a text so all I could do is forward. didn't have the link :-(

 

[irishfan]

What do Colts fans think will happen with the appeal? I have no idea what Goodell is going to do, but I think it's going to court barring a complete overturn of the suspension. Which will be awesome because not only will Brady's texts be in play, but so will Goodell's, Kensil's, Wells', Blandino's, Anderson's, and probably many others.

 

[Irish YJ]

Overall I think he will get 2 games.

Texts, or anything else won't be compelled unless it gets into a court of law.

 

[yankeeND]

What do Colts fans think will happen with the appeal? I have no idea what Goodell is going to do, but I think it's going to court barring a complete overturn of the suspension. Which will be awesome because not only will Brady's texts be in play, but so will Goodell's, Kensil's, Wells', Blandino's, Anderson's, and probably many others.

That's actually what I hope happens. I want to know what was going on with the behind the scenes things with the league. They have proven to just be inept in all that they do, not just with this incident. Should be pretty interesting.

These meme's have been pretty good. Even I can laugh at them. I got one the other day that had Brady on a Maddon cover that said it comes complete with cheat codes lol. I love it! I have just started to embrace them being reviled by everyone, and I got to say, they still have four rings, so I really have nothing to complain about.

 

[irishfan]

That's actually what I hope happens. I want to know what was going on with the behind the scenes things with the league. They have proven to just be inept in all that they do, not just with this incident. Should be pretty interesting.

These meme's have been pretty good. Even I can laugh at them. I got one the other day that had Brady on a Maddon cover that said it comes complete with cheat codes lol. I love it! I have just started to embrace them being reviled by everyone, and I got to say, they still have four rings, so I really have nothing to complain about.

This completely. Whether or not you think the Patriots blatantly cheated, the NFL was shady throughout this whole thing. I don't think Goodell should want texts/emails out there. Also, whether or not you think the Patriots cheated, you can see pretty clearly why the organization/fans think the NFL had it out for them from the start:

1) They tried to catch the Patriots in the act.
2) There is video of the refs watching the Pats equipment guy take the balls out of their locker room and to the field both pre-game and after halftime. They could have stopped him or used the backup footballs if they wanted to. Instead, they chose to see if they'd tamper and then measure the footballs. Nothing wrong with that in theory (unless you want to ensure an even playing field for the AFC Championship), but it's still a "sting" if you will.
3) Blandino lied about the officials knowing anything ahead of time despite being emailed before the game and then informing head ref Walt Anderson. Why lie about it?
4) Kensil informed the Patriots equipment staff at halftime the footballs had been measured and that they were in "big fuck!n trouble." Implying guilt before any investigation. And without actual recorded measurements pre-game to compare. And clearly without knowing what weather does to PSI.
5) The NFL leaked info this whole time (false PSI levels, names of the equipment guys--which led to that bogus OTL witch hunt where they camped outside the equipment guy's house for an interview)
6) The NFL did nothing to dispel the false Chris Mortensen report than 11/12 balls were 2 lbs below regulation (which was false) which caused the media sh!tstorm.
7) The NFL told the Patriots that one football was as low as 10.1 PSI in their initial investigation letter (also false).
8) The NFL did not give the Patriots the actual PSI numbers in the report until March 23.
9) The NFL hired their concussion lawyer to give an "independent investigation." The Dolphins OL coach complained heavily about Wells during the Martin/Incognito fiasco. I don't think he'll be thought of as being "independent" much longer.
10) The Wells Report could find no scientific tampering with the footballs, so they went with: “Although Anderson’s best recollection is that he used the Logo Gauge, it is certainly possible that he used the Non-Logo Gauge" so they had some sort of hint of guilt to bring back to the NFL. (I imagine Wells didn't want to investigate for 100+ days and charge $5 million to bring back scientific proof the balls were not tampered with)
11) The NFL did not know a single thing about PSI levels and what weather does to them prior to this. They jumped full on into an investigation they didn't know nearly enough about.
12) This investigation did not center on the NFL protocol at all (lack of pre-game measurements, two needles that measure complete different numbers, pre-game protocol with equipment guy walking by them with the footballs, the official who was fired for stealing a game ball to sell, why the NFL went about this sting, why Blandino lied about his knowledge, any sort of research into what the NFL knew about PSI before this game, etc.) and instead only focused on the Patriots. Very independent.

This is going to court 100% at this point. I can't wait.

 

[irishfan]

NFL should improve its in-house system of justice | ProFootballTalk

Florio kinda sucks and is pretty much the opposite of a Pats-homer...but even he says there isn't enough in the Wells Report to say Brady is guilty.

 

[Irish#1]

What do Colts fans think will happen with the appeal? I have no idea what Goodell is going to do, but I think it's going to court barring a complete overturn of the suspension. Which will be awesome because not only will Brady's texts be in play, but so will Goodell's, Kensil's, Wells', Blandino's, Anderson's, and probably many others.

The suspension will get reduced to 2 or 3 games and the fine to about half. I think Goodell announced the penalty knowing there would be an appeal. This gives him wiggle room to lower it to what he actually thinks it should be.

I seriously think this will NOT go to the courts regardless. If Kraft decides he wants to take it to court I think the owners would step in and pressure him to drop it for some concessions. Otherwise, this would give the league a major black eye on their image. JMO.

 

[irishfan]

NFL leaks disagreement with Patriots on circumstances for re-interviewing witnesses | ProFootballTalk

The NFL has more leaks than the Titanic. Love how the NFL has to defend their "independent" investigator. They rush to do this, but no one there had the time to issue a statement that Mortenson's 2 PSI report was false. And people wonder why Brady didn't want to hand over anything....

 

[Irish#1]

From MMQB
"Asked why he suspended club employees John Jastremski and Jim McNally despite fiercely proclaiming his organization’s innocence, Kraft refused comment—for what he claimed were a variety of reasons."

 

[IrishLion]

I mean, regardless of handing evidence over, faulty investigations, info leaks, and the NFL being incompetent in general, the fact remains that the Pats got caught cheating lol. The guy is "the deflator" for crying out loud.

No amount of deflecting towards the commissioner and his shortfalls, which are hilariously well-known, changes what was obviously happening.

 

[irishfan]

I mean, regardless of handing evidence over, faulty investigations, info leaks, and the NFL being incompetent in general, the fact remains that the Pats got caught cheating lol. The guy is "the deflator" for crying out loud.

No amount of deflecting towards the commissioner and his shortfalls, which are hilariously well-known, changes what was obviously happening.

This whole investigation was about whether or not the deflated footballs during the AFC Championship game. The Wells Report shows the average Patriots' football measured at 11.49 at halftime, which is within what the Report predicted with the Ideal Gas Law said the balls should measure (11.32-11.52). Any neutral judge would overturn this suspension based on that alone. Especially when considering the fact that there weren't even pre-game measurments to compare them with. The texts and the bathroom trip look bad, but that's circumstantial evidence towards deflating that the report shows didn't happen.

Him calling himself the "deflator" in May 2014 in a text looks bad. But I don't think it shows any sort of pattern of past cheating (not that report was investigating that) when texts also show that the Pats played with footballs at 16 PSI in October 2014.

 

[irishfan]

From MMQB
"Asked why he suspended club employees John Jastremski and Jim McNally despite fiercely proclaiming his organization’s innocence, Kraft refused comment—for what he claimed were a variety of reasons."

Little odd, but there are enough "fuck Tom" texts or texts about blowing the balls up to feel like a watermelon that you can justify firing them for that alone.

 

[IrishLion]

Him calling himself the "deflator" in May 2014 in a text looks bad. But I don't think it shows any sort of pattern of past cheating (not that report was investigating that) when texts also show that the Pats played with footballs at 16 PSI in October 2014.

The guy has a nickname in reference the rule he *might* be breaking, and you don't think that is indicative of anything lol?

 

[irishfan]

The guy has a nickname in reference the rule he *might* be breaking, and you don't think that is indicative of anything lol?

Not when there's proof that the rule actually wasn't broken. I'll admit it looks bad, but how can you say someone is guilty of something that didn't happen?

 

[IrishLion]

Not when there's proof that the rule actually wasn't broken. I'll admit it looks bad, but how can you say someone is guilty of something that didn't happen?

I mean, reading the text messages says it did happen, enough that it was an ongoing conversation.

It doesn't take a genius to make the connection between the topic of the balls being inflated/deflated coming up, and then Brady and "gifts" being discussed alongside that.

 

[irishfan]

I mean, reading the text messages says it did happen, enough that it was an ongoing conversation.

It doesn't take a genius to make the connection between the topic of the balls being inflated/deflated coming up, and then Brady and "gifts" being discussed alongside that.

Oh ya I mean I'm not saying it didn't happen in past games at some point. And I think when McNally took the balls in the bathroom he most likely deflated a couple of them a bit, but texts are some of the most circumstantial evidence possible since you can't account for tone or whether they're in response to an earlier serious/joking conversation. The gift stuff seems fairly common with equipment guys in the locker room.

I know I'm being a homer about this, but I really don't think there's close to enough in this report to warrant a suspension. It's just going to come down to whether or not Brady wants this going to court where he would have to give up his phone. That will pretty much show what his true level of guilt is. I really hope it comes to that so that various NFL guys have to give up their phones as well.

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

Not when there's proof that the rule actually wasn't broken. I'll admit it looks bad, but how can you say someone is guilty of something that didn't happen?

Hypothetically, let's say OJs trial had all the same evidence, except for the a text conversation to an acquaintance in which OJ refers to himself as "the murder".

Are you trying to suggest that this hypothetical additional evidence wouldn't be enough to tip the jury towards the opposite conviction?

 

[Irish#1]

 

[Irish#1]

This whole investigation was about whether or not the deflated footballs during the AFC Championship game. The Wells Report shows the average Patriots' football measured at 11.49 at halftime, which is within what the Report predicted with the Ideal Gas Law said the balls should measure (11.32-11.52). Any neutral judge would overturn this suspension based on that alone. Especially when considering the fact that there weren't even pre-game measurments to compare them with. The texts and the bathroom trip look bad, but that's circumstantial evidence towards deflating that the report shows didn't happen.

Him calling himself the "deflator" in May 2014 in a text looks bad. But I don't think it shows any sort of pattern of past cheating (not that report was investigating that) when texts also show that the Pats played with footballs at 16 PSI in October 2014.

I see what you did there.