[NFL] vBook: Colts vs Patriots (Deflategate)

[Irish#1]

Credit to Irish YJ

 

[pkt77242]

AEI report looms over Brady appeal hearing | ProFootballTalk

 

[irishfan]

Strong rumors in Boston media that the appeal decision will be out today. This below makes me think the NFLPA knows it's coming as well.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">NFLPA sources tell ABC News' <a href="https://twitter.com/ryansmithtv">@ryansmithtv</a> that if Tom Brady is suspended for any games, they expect to challenge decision in federal court.</p>— Adam Schefter (@AdamSchefter) <a href="https://twitter.com/AdamSchefter/status/621303094022926336">July 15, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[gkIrish]

If they don't reduce the suspension I think that means they have him dead to rights and an appeal is probably a bad idea.

 

[woolybug25]

If they don't reduce the suspension I think that means they have him dead to rights and an appeal is probably a bad idea.

I feel like this is the only positive outcome possible for the NFL. The alternative is that they remove the suspension and set a terrible precedent for the league. I also don't understand how the Patriots could possibly have a case here. Companies are allowed to set rules for their organization. The Patriots shouldn't be able to acknowledge their culpability but simply disregard any punishment.

Not to mention... screw them if they take this to federal court and waste the precious time of our federal courts. There are people with serious issues that are waiting for their day in court. They shouldn't have to wait behind Tom Brady because he's upset about getting suspended.

 

[IrishLion]

Tom Brady could be caught on film kicking puppies, and a large portion of New England fans would deny that he did anything wrong.

 

[irishfan]

I feel like this is the only positive outcome possible for the NFL. The alternative is that they remove the suspension and set a terrible precedent for the league. I also don't understand how the Patriots could possibly have a case here. Companies are allowed to set rules for their organization. The Patriots shouldn't be able to acknowledge their culpability but simply disregard any punishment.

Not to mention... screw them if they take this to federal court and waste the precious time of our federal courts. There are people with serious issues that are waiting for their day in court. They shouldn't have to wait behind Tom Brady because he's upset about getting suspended.

NFL Players Association to fight Tom Brady ruling if ban stays

If the NFLPA does challenge the appeal verdict in court, it will argue:

• The ball-deflation policy was incorrectly applied to Brady, as the rules were meant for club personnel and not players.

• Against the "general awareness" standard used by Ted Wells' investigators to determine Brady's involvement.

• If it is determined the ball-deflation policy did apply to Brady, the league failed to give him notice of the penalty, in essence making up the punishment with precedent.

• The NFL doesn't have proper techniques and standards for measuring deflation of footballs.

• Goodell should have recused himself as the arbitrator for Brady's appeal hearing.

There's enough to argue without even getting into the science of it which has been debunked by some. I agree it's stupid for an athlete to go to federal court, but every NFL player who has done so has won their appeal against Goodell (Bountygate players, Ray Rice, AP), so IMO the issue is more Goodell not knowing how to hand down a punishment than it is a player seeking an independent judge.

Also, it's a Tom Brady issue, not a Patriots issue. The team already accepted their penalties, because, like you stated, they had no argument. Their only solution was to file a lawsuit that most likely would have been instantly thrown out based on the wording of the NFL constitution. The commissioner has the absolute final say with team penalties.

 

[ACamp1900]

Tom Brady could be caught on film kicking puppies, and a large portion of New England fans would deny that he did anything wrong.

^

 

[woolybug25]

NFL Players Association to fight Tom Brady ruling if ban stays



There's enough to argue without even getting into the science of it which has been debunked by some. I agree it's stupid for an athlete to go to federal court, but every NFL player who has done so has won their appeal against Goodell (Bountygate players, Ray Rice, AP), so IMO the issue is more Goodell not knowing how to hand down a punishment than it is a player seeking an independent judge.

Also, it's a Tom Brady issue, not a Patriots issue. They already accepted their penalties, because, like you stated, they had no argument. Their only solution was to file a lawsuit that most likely would have been instantly thrown out based on the wording of the NFL constitution. The commissioner has the absolute final say with team penalties.

I didn't say that they wouldn't use arguments in their court date. But it's still the ruling of an independent business regarding the conduct of one of their employees. It should be handled between the business and their union. If there is a broader issue regarding employee rights, then I see why it could call for courts to be involved. But that is not the case here. It's one player and one specific ruling. They shouldn't be utilizing our limited court resources on this kind of matter. Can you imagine if every employee in the US went to Federal Court to argue unfair punishments dealt by their employer?

 

[Anchorman]

I didn't say that they wouldn't use arguments in their court date. But it's still the ruling of an independent business regarding the conduct of one of their employees. It should be handled between the business and their union. If there is a broader issue regarding employee rights, then I see why it could call for courts to be involved. But that is not the case here. It's one player and one specific ruling. They shouldn't be utilizing our limited court resources on this kind of matter. Can you imagine if every employee in the US went to Federal Court to argue unfair punishments dealt by their employer?

While I see your point, my guess is that most employee "unfair punishments" that ultimately impact millions of dollars do in fact have a day in court.

 

[irishfan]

I didn't say that they wouldn't use arguments in their court date. But it's still the ruling of an independent business regarding the conduct of one of their employees. It should be handled between the business and their union. If there is a broader issue regarding employee rights, then I see why it could call for courts to be involved. But that is not the case here. It's one player and one specific ruling. They shouldn't be utilizing our limited court resources on this kind of matter. Can you imagine if every employee in the US went to Federal Court to argue unfair punishments dealt by their employer?

If they were being fined $2 million (4-game checks) based on no hard proof and "more probable than not" then I wouldn't blame them for going to Federal Court.

Everyone deserves their day in court, and that court shouldn't be Goodell as the judge, jury, and executioner with an appeal process to Goodell again.

 

[woolybug25]

While I see your point, my guess is that most employee "unfair punishments" that ultimately impact millions of dollars do in fact have a day in court.

This impacts Tom Brady's pay only, not the NFL. Just because he is paid a lot more than the average American, does not give him more right to our court systems.

 

[woolybug25]

If they were being fined $2 million (4-game checks) based on no hard proof and "more probable than not" then I wouldn't blame them for going to Federal Court.

Everyone deserves their day in court, and that court shouldn't be Goodell as the judge, jury, and executioner with an appeal process to Goodell again.

You wouldn't blame him because you're a Pats fan. Let's be real.

I highly doubt you would feel the same way if your court appearance for saving your farm from annexation was held up because you had to wait for an NFL player to argue why his punishment is unfair.

 

[Anchorman]

This impacts Tom Brady's pay only, not the NFL. Just because he is paid a lot more than the average American, does not give him more right to our court systems.

Impacts the NFL via the Patriots, jersey sales, reputation, endorsement potential, etc. Doesn't mean he has more right, just the same right--which is to take it to court if he so desires.

 

[irishfan]

You wouldn't blame him because you're a Pats fan. Let's be real.

I highly doubt you would feel the same way if your court appearance for saving your farm from annexation was held up because you had to wait for an NFL player to argue why his punishment is unfair.

Probably not. At the same time, it's not Tom Brady's fault that there's no proper appeals process in the CBA and that Goodell gets beaten in federal court every time he goes. He shouldn't have to take a career hit because he feels bad about going through the federal court. He has that same right as anyone else. There is no simple solution here and there hasn't been one since this story spiraled out of control.

 

[woolybug25]

Impacts the NFL via the Patriots, jersey sales, reputation, endorsement potential, etc. Doesn't mean he has more right, just the same right--which is to take it to court if he so desires.

Oh give me a break... again, how is that the same right you and I have? I'll tell you what, next time your boss treats you in a perceived unfair manner (cuts hours, freezes pay, takes away an account), take that to Federal Court and see how that goes over.

You guys are acting like this is simply a regular Joe doing what is perfectly normal. It's absolutely not the same thing. There is finite amount of Federal Court resources available, I fail to see how arguing every NFL punishment fits their scope of work.

 

[ACamp1900]

Feels like the NFLPA using this as a means to gain a power foothold on the league more than 'Brady having his day in court'...

 

[irishfan]

Feels like the NFLPA using this as a means to gain a power foothold on the league more than 'Brady having his day in court'...

Correct. NFLPA even referenced early on how Brady was the perfect high-profile player to use in a court case if they want to get the CBA appeals writing changed.

 

[ACamp1900]

cheater, and puppet...

 

[woolybug25]

Correct. NFLPA even referenced early on how Brady was the perfect high-profile player to use in a court case if they want to get the CBA appeals writing changed.

Then they need to put a class action lawsuit together and argue unfair business practices in Federal Court. Tom Brady shouldn't be airing his personal grievances in the highest courts in the land.

 

[irishfan]

Oh give me a break... again, how is that the same right you and I have? I'll tell you what, next time your boss treats you in a perceived unfair manner (cuts hours, freezes pay, takes away an account), take that to Federal Court and see how that goes over.

You guys are acting like this is simply a regular Joe doing what is perfectly normal. It's absolutely not the same thing. There is finite amount of Federal Court resources available, I fail to see how arguing every NFL punishment fits their scope of work.

You're right. He isn't, and it's not. If you have an issue with anything it should be the appeals process and the fact that the Commissioner can't hand down a proper punishment. The players shouldn't have to blindly follow whatever Goodell says.

 

[ACamp1900]

I think it'll be hilarious if Brady gets destroyed with everything that comes out but the NFLPA still manages to use the whole affair to it's own means...

 

[irishfan]

Then they need to put a class action lawsuit together and argue unfair business practices in Federal Court. Tom Brady shouldn't be airing his personal grievances in the highest courts in the land.

When those personal grievances are the cause of the unfair business practices, they are going to get aired out. He's not going to be told to sit this one out and quietly take your punishment while we go argue that your punishment isn't fair.

On a related note, I don't get why Goodell even wants the responsibility of punishing players. It's a PR eye sore for him and the league every time. The NFL and NFLPA should just jointly appoint a committee and keep Goodell out of it.

 

[woolybug25]

You're right. He isn't, and it's not. If you have an issue with anything it should be the appeals process and the fact that the Commissioner can't hand down a proper punishment. The players shouldn't have to blindly follow whatever Goodell says.

I agree, and that is an issue that the union (which Brady delegates as his voice via contract) and the NFL should be debating. Not Brady himself, in the highest courts in the land, no less. The NFL should even utilize the Federal Court if they put together a suit viable for such a hearing. But that still doesn't give Brady the individual right to use our Federal Courts for his personal grievances. There are proper protocols for such a thing, and he is skirting them simply because of his fame.

When those personal grievances are the cause of the unfair business practices, they are going to get aired out. He's not going to be told to sit this one out and quietly take your punishment while we go argue that your punishment isn't fair.

Again... next time your employer treats you unfairly, take it to Federal Court and tell me how that goes for you...

I'm not saying he isn't allowed to "air it out", i'm saying that using our most important court system is the wrong venue.

 

[wizards8507]

Oh give me a break... again, how is that the same right you and I have? I'll tell you what, next time your boss treats you in a perceived unfair manner (cuts hours, freezes pay, takes away an account), take that to Federal Court and see how that goes over.

If my employment contract explicitly states "employer shall not, under any circumstances, cut my hours," you can be damn sure there would be a legitimate lawsuit. The argument wouldn't be "that's not fair," but "that's not what the contract says."

Then they need to put a class action lawsuit together and argue unfair business practices in Federal Court. Tom Brady shouldn't be airing his personal grievances in the highest courts in the land.

Any legal issue arising from this would not be on the facts of the case, but on adherence to the CBA. The NFLPA and the NFL have a legally binding agreement that both parties must follow.

 

[woolybug25]

If my employment contract explicitly states "employer shall not, under any circumstances, cut my hours," you can be damn sure there would be a legitimate lawsuit. The argument wouldn't be "that's not fair," but "that's not what the contract says."

Absolutely... but you wouldn't be using the federal court system to do so.

Any legal issue arising from this would not be on the facts of the case, but on adherence to the CBA. The NFLPA and the NFL have a legally binding agreement that both parties must follow.

Totally. What's your point?

 

[Irish#1]

If my employment contract explicitly states "employer shall not, under any circumstances, cut my hours," you can be damn sure there would be a legitimate lawsuit. The argument wouldn't be "that's not fair," but "that's not what the contract says."


Any legal issue arising from this would not be on the facts of the case, but on adherence to the CBA. The NFLPA and the NFL have a legally binding agreement that both parties must follow.

So why threaten a lawsuit? The NFLPA hinted a while back they would be taking some type of action, so I tend to think this is more about power than is the punishment Brady gets justified.

I still believe it will get reduced to two games as Roger Dodger set four games to give him some wiggle room when the poop hit the fan. If Brady or the union want to take this to court fine. They should just be put in line with everyone else and not be moved to the front of the line.

 

[irishfan]

So why threaten a lawsuit? The NFLPA hinted a while back they would be taking some type of action, so I tend to think this is more about power than is the punishment Brady gets justified.

I still believe it will get reduced to two games as Roger Dodger set four games to give him some wiggle room when the poop hit the fan. If Brady or the union want to take this to court fine. They should just be put in line with everyone else and not be moved to the front of the line.

One theory I've seen floated is a reduction to 1-2 games, and an injunction filed by Brady. He would play week 1 (vs. Steelers) and then drop the injunction and take his 1-2 game suspension for Bills/Jags in Weeks 2-3, or just Jacksonville in week 3 if it's a 1-game suspension. They have a bye in week 4, so the timing would work well.

The best way for everyone to save face is to drop it to 1-game for failure to fully comply with the investigation with an agreement that Brady can take the suspension via injunction for week 3 against Jacksonville State.

 

[IrishLion]

Wait... so he would get to play the difficult game, and THEN take his suspension for the less-challenging games?

 

[woolybug25]

One theory I've seen floated is a reduction to 1-2 games, and an injunction filed by Brady. He would play week 1 (vs. Steelers) and then drop the injunction and take his 1-2 game suspension for Bills/Jags in Weeks 2-3, or just Jacksonville in week 3 if it's a 1-game suspension. They have a bye in week 4, so the timing would work well.

The best way for everyone to save face is to drop it to 1-game for failure to fully comply with the investigation with an agreement that Brady can take the suspension via injunction for week 3 against Jacksonville State.

haha... spoken like a true Pat's fan. lol

So you think that issuing suspension on what opponent they play in a given week is a good idea?