Fatal shooting Charleston SC

[IrishLax]

The question I always have is how can someone who does something like this be sane? I don't want them to be treated as insane in the eyes of the law but while it's easy to understand how someone could be a sane racist it's more difficult to understand how someone can be a "sane racist mass murderer."

In essence, calling a sociopath or psychopath "sane" would be an oxymoron.

Sane implies an absence of mental disease of defect, but a sociopath capable of committing mass murder without remorse by definition has a mental disorder. Can't be both.

 

[Bishop2b5]

The question I always have is how can someone who does something like this be sane? I don't want them to be treated as insane in the eyes of the law but while it's easy to understand how someone could be a sane racist it's more difficult to understand how someone can be a "sane racist mass murderer."

Insane is when they hear voices, hallucinate, or are so mentally ill that they stick out like a sore thumb. These people are typically psychotic, schizophrenic, or otherwise so mentally incapacitated that they either can't understand that what they're doing is wrong or can't resist doing it. They often meet the legal definition of not guilty by reason of insanity or mental defect.

The rest are people who usually have some sort of psychological or psychiatric issues such as uncontrolled anger, PTSD, paranoid personality disorder, have some sort of chemical imbalance, etc., etc. They're "off" a bit - what most of us would consider loose cannons, oddballs, tin foil hat wearers, or people whose cheese and crackers are not always in close association with each other. They ARE able to differentiate between right and wrong though. They aren't insane, but they're not mentally healthy either.

They tend to be loners, have poor social skills, not fit in, blame the world or some particular group for their problems, be the guy at work who gives everyone the creeps, and so on. That need to fit in somewhere or buy into a philosophy that says their problems aren't their fault tends to lead them to hate groups, weirdo cults, or make them very susceptible to radical religions or become fanatical adherents of political or religious groups. These are the people who shoot up a school, go postal at work, snap and kill their entire family, or walk into a McDonalds or a church and start killing.

 

[Redbar]

In essence, calling a sociopath or psychopath "sane" would be an oxymoron.

Sane implies an absence of mental disease of defect, but a sociopath capable of committing mass murder without remorse by definition has a mental disorder. Can't be both.

So every terrorist bomber is insane? The Boston Bombers were insane? IMO this young man, McVeigh, a lot of mass murders are completely sane, and they even have remorse for the innocents in a way, but they view their "mission" as larger than that. They place their ideals above their targets lives or even their own life, sort of like "give me --- or give me death." That does not = mental disorder.

Edit: Which begs an interesting question- Can someone's political views be seen as insane and them in turn by virtue of their holding them?

 

[Cackalacky]

The question I always have is how can someone who does something like this be sane? I don't want them to be treated as insane in the eyes of the law but while it's easy to understand how someone could be a sane racist it's more difficult to understand how someone can be a "sane racist mass murderer."

I don't know how the spectrum of sanity is parsed but I have always though that psychopaths were without remorse or concern for consequences because they can't tell the difference and that sociopaths are without remorse or concern for consequences because they don't care but are still able to discern the nature of the reality to an extent.

Good question. My point was that in the eyes of the law and based on his confession he won't be able to use insanity.

 

[NDgradstudent]

There you go again speaking in absolutes, about things that are so obviously not that.

The AP story on this case made it very clear that a "white man" was arrested. The AP story is what is used by most reporting outlets.

Compare this to the coverage of, for example, immigrants fighting in North Dakota, a "Boston man" threatening law enforcement with a knife, a local reporter killed in Southeast D.C., and a man seen punching an elderly D.C. Metro rider. Peruse those episodes, just from the past couple months, and see if the race of the perpetrators is mentioned. (It isn't).

 

[BGIF]

Interesting bond hearing. The hearing officer was a magistrate who by SC law cannot set bond for murder cases. The bond set at $1 million was for a weapons charge.

The judge made an opening statement where he addressed the victims including the shooter's family. He asked if the prosecuter wanted to speak but she declined. He than asked if representatives for each victim wanted to speak. A mother, a grandaughter, a sister, and other relatives each described their loss ... tearfully. It was extremely emotional as one by one they stepped up and gave the shooter forgiveness. It was remarkable. Love embracing an act of hate.

I don't recall ever hearing of relative statements being taken BEFORE the trial. I expect that to take place AFTER the jury has rendered a verdict and BEFORE a trial judge issues sentence.

After the bond hearing, a Fox reporter asked the magistrate why he had the relative speak. His response was about the trauma in the city and the need to heal.

The procedure struck me as strange and ripe for a defense attorney to scream foul, "prejudical". There has been a reported confession but no guilty plea, no trial, no evidence presented, no jury deliberation nor verdict.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

The AP story on this case made it very clear that a "white man" was arrested. The AP story is what is used by most reporting outlets.

Compare this to the coverage of, for example, immigrants fighting in North Dakota, a "Boston man" threatening law enforcement with a knife, a local reporter killed in Southeast D.C., and a man seen punching an elderly D.C. Metro rider. Peruse those episodes, just from the past couple months, and see if the race of the perpetrators is mentioned. (It isn't).

A kid who wears clothing with pro-apartheid logos and has a confederate flag on his car went into one of the most famous historic black churches in the south and shot 9 people. He has previously expressed the idea that "blacks were taking over the world" and that "someone needed to do something about it for the white race."

Don't you think race is likely pertinent?

 

[BGIF]

The AP story on this case made it very clear that a "white man" was arrested. The AP story is what is used by most reporting outlets.

Compare this to the coverage of, for example, immigrants fighting in North Dakota, a "Boston man" threatening law enforcement with a knife, a local reporter killed in Southeast D.C., and a man seen punching an elderly D.C. Metro rider. Peruse those episodes, just from the past couple months, and see if the race of the perpetrators is mentioned. (It isn't).

As the police had put out a description of the alleged shooter including his height, range of age 21-25, and skin tone, I believed based upon a survivor's description, a witness who saw him flee, AND church secruity camera VIDEO, it was revelant.

I don't know the details of the other cites you cherry picked.

 

[Emcee77]

There is every indication this person was in full use of his faculties and was very cognizant of his desire to kill black people. This was not a religious based killing as the right wing news media and presidential candidates are attempting to frame it as. He was literally your textbook racist. You don't have to be associated with KKK nor have screws loose to hate someone. I find it it far more common that generational racism is passed on to kids from parents/grandparents or from close acquaintances. It's not like parents sit their Kids down and school them racist propaganda but is the little exchanges in public, the under breath comments as people walk by, opinions expressed at him over many years that add up to frame a kids perspective.

However there are multiple well know hate group chapters in the state not called KKK and he might well have been associated with them. Unknown at this time but pics released of him show him wearing Apartheid South African and Rhodesian flags on his clothing and a distinctly egregious confederate flag bumper license plate.

Yeah he was an avowed racist. I've read reports that he hoped to provoke a race war. If that's so, this is as much an act of terrorism as a hate crime.

 

[Cackalacky]

So every terrorist bomber is insane? The Boston Bombers were insane? IMO this young man, McVeigh, a lot of mass murders are completely sane, and they even have remorse for the innocents in a way, but they view their "mission" as larger than that. They place their ideals above their targets lives or even their own life, sort of like "give me --- or give me death." That does not = mental disorder.

Edit: Which begs an interesting question- Can someone's political views be seen as insane and them in turn by virtue of their holding them?

From my above linked article:

James Garbarino, a professor of psychology at Loyola University Chicago who has provided expert witness testimonials in murder cases for 20 years, told VICE News that Roof's alleged admission that he had brief misgivings shortly before shooting the congregants, would undoubtedly affect any insanity plea defense his lawyers might choose to file, if the defense went down that path.

"That comment certainly would be taken as evidence of lucidity, and normal empathic behavior, which is all the more reason why it makes sense to think of this as a terrorist act because terrorists I think often have that experience," he said.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Friend to me: Maybe Ted Cruz will go to South Carolina and insist that Emanuel AME stand with him on voter registration?</p>— Michael B Dougherty (@michaelbd) <a href="https://twitter.com/michaelbd/status/611993962342170624">June 19, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Cackalacky]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">1. I have before argued that the great collective search for motives for rampage shootings is generally fruitless: <a href="http://t.co/suijPd2VbQ">http://t.co/suijPd2VbQ</a></p>— Ari Schulman (@AriSchulman) <a href="https://twitter.com/AriSchulman/status/611587322795044865">June 18, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">2. Why? Because rampage shooters rarely have normal motives – robbery, sex, revenge, grievance – against the specific individuals they kill.</p>— Ari Schulman (@AriSchulman) <a href="https://twitter.com/AriSchulman/status/611587549107064832">June 18, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">3. The defining trait of rampage shootings is that victims are random, chosen simply for being members of society, which is to be punished.</p>— Ari Schulman (@AriSchulman) <a href="https://twitter.com/AriSchulman/status/611587893899890688">June 18, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">4. The immediate cause of most rampage shootings is hatred fueled by narcissism -- not specific grievance, not mental illness.</p>— Ari Schulman (@AriSchulman) <a href="https://twitter.com/AriSchulman/status/611588143788130304">June 18, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">5. The Charleston shooting does not well fit the rampage profile, for two reasons: 1st, shooter did not try to kill himself, as is common.</p>— Ari Schulman (@AriSchulman) <a href="https://twitter.com/AriSchulman/status/611588379499630592">June 18, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">6. And second, the victims seem to have been selected for being a particular kind of person.</p>— Ari Schulman (@AriSchulman) <a href="https://twitter.com/AriSchulman/status/611588655753203712">June 18, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">7. All rampage shootings are hate crimes, but this one seems clearly to have come from hatred of a very directed, particular kind.</p>— Ari Schulman (@AriSchulman) <a href="https://twitter.com/AriSchulman/status/611588955662761984">June 18, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">8. Therefore it's not clear that this act was primarily self-aggrandizing, or that discussing cultural/political factors is not meaningful.</p>— Ari Schulman (@AriSchulman) <a href="https://twitter.com/AriSchulman/status/611589178799730688">June 18, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">9. Likewise owing to the fact that the suspect is alive to face charges and trial, which again is not usual.</p>— Ari Schulman (@AriSchulman) <a href="https://twitter.com/AriSchulman/status/611589581146730496">June 18, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">10. The risk of an unwitting media role in a contagion of violence remains, however, and shouldn't be ignored: <a href="http://t.co/KKCDaehWtK">http://t.co/KKCDaehWtK</a></p>— Ari Schulman (@AriSchulman) <a href="https://twitter.com/AriSchulman/status/611589778555846656">June 18, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">11. Hatred, whatever its form, requires no mental illness. It is an actively sustained choice.</p>— Ari Schulman (@AriSchulman) <a href="https://twitter.com/AriSchulman/status/611590037591883776">June 18, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">12. Mass killers in particular are "rarely insane, in either the legal or ethical senses of the term," as Michael Kelleher has written.</p>— Ari Schulman (@AriSchulman) <a href="https://twitter.com/AriSchulman/status/611590332996677632">June 18, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">13. "There is no greater coward than a criminal who enters a house of God and slaughters innocent people engaged in the study of scripture."</p>— Ari Schulman (@AriSchulman) <a href="https://twitter.com/AriSchulman/status/611590682545774592">June 18, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">I have, btw, explored psychology & profile of mass shootings here: <a href="http://t.co/KKCDaehWtK">http://t.co/KKCDaehWtK</a> Key diffs in this case, but much still applies.</p>— Ari Schulman (@AriSchulman) <a href="https://twitter.com/AriSchulman/status/611593573255909376">June 18, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[alohagoirish]

Alexander Hamilton Stephens --Vice president of the confederacy

This is from his famous cornerstone speech made in savannah in 1861

"Our government is founded on exactly the opposite ideas, our foundation rests , our cornerstone is laid upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man, that slavery, his subordination to the Superior race ,is his natural normal condition."


I understand that the tunes are cool , the greek revival houses are beautiful , the confederate uniforms were sharp.

But the confederate flag needs to come down from the state house in Charleston, it is an embarrassment to the country .

The Flag like the confederacy was rooted to a single overriding truth Arian Supremacy. A philosophy we would see come to full flower in Europe in the 30s.

There simply is no justifiable reason to fly that flag any more then there is to fly a swastika.

By the way Andrew H Stephens would be elected governor of Georgia in 1882 20 years after the war!

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

But they were Muslims. There seems to be a pattern that non-Muslims are characterized as lone wolves or mentally ill while Muslims are characterized as terrorists.

This guy was wearing pro - apartheid clothing in his Facebook profile pic and allegedly made comments to the effect of "you are raping our women." I agree that we should let it play out, but race seems to be a clear motivation.

That's not intellectual laziness. There's reason to back that up. In the past few decades (most recently starting around 1993), we've seen Muslims all over the world target the West and Americans while screaming, "Alluha akbar." This is a global movement, a jihad. This dude reminds me more of McVeigh than Mohammed Atta (in motives).

 

[Cackalacky]

Alexander Hamilton Stephens --Vice president of the confederacy

This is from his famous cornerstone speech made in savannah in 1861

"Our government is founded on exactly the opposite ideas, our foundation rests , our cornerstone is laid upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man, that slavery, his subordination to the Superior race ,is his natural normal condition."


I understand that the tunes are cool , the greek revival houses are beautiful , the confederate uniforms were sharp.

But the confederate flag needs to come down from the state house in Charleston, it is an embarrassment to the country .

The Flag like the confederacy was rooted to a single overriding truth Arian Supremacy. A philosophy we would see come to full flower in Europe in the 30s.

There simply is no justifiable reason to fly that flag any more then there is to fly a swastika.

By the way Andrew H Stephens would be elected governor of Georgia in 1882 20 years after the war!

The state house is in Columbia. The Confederate Flag was removed to a monument near the State House and is presently flying full mast while the other flags on top of the State House are at half mast. There are no confederate flags flying here except on the porches of a few bold souls.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

The state house is in Columbia. The Confederate Flag was removed to a monument near the State House and is presently flying full mast while the other flags on top of the State House are at half mast. There are no confederate flags flying here except on the porches of a few bold souls.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="und" dir="ltr">“We” • <a href="http://t.co/85LORw7dZF">http://t.co/85LORw7dZF</a></p>— Alan Jacobs (@ayjay) <a href="https://twitter.com/ayjay/status/611904578989068288">June 19, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[alohagoirish]

The confederate flag flies in front of the statehouse , in front of the capital of SC. Despite its short move due to compromise under threat of a boycott 15 years ago--it was a short move and it still flies in front of the capital and flies in the face of " all men were created equal". There is no honest justification for the reverence and respect that symbol of white supremacy holds in the south.

 

[NDgradstudent]

The appalling Southern Poverty Law Center -which will probably be able to build another "poverty palace" as a result of this- keeps data on "hate groups." It reports that in 2014 South Carolina had 19 hate groups, or ~4 for every million people. New Jersey has 40 such groups, or ~4.5 for every million people. And yet the stars and bars do not fly in Trenton (although they might spruce the ghastly city up a bit). So maybe the evidence suggests that flags do not have this tendency to set people off on killing sprees?

Opposition to the Confederate flag these days seems to take the form mainly of pious preening from people who do not live in these states. When Mississippi held a referendum on whether or not to keep its old flag (complete with explicit "Confederate" imagery) sizeable numbers of blacks voted to keep it.

 

[Cackalacky]

Lindsay Graham

 

[pkt77242]

The appalling Southern Poverty Law Center -which will probably be able to build another "poverty palace" as a result of this- keeps data on "hate groups." It reports that in 2014 South Carolina had 19 hate groups, or ~4 for every million people. New Jersey has 40 such groups, or ~4.5 for every million people. And yet the stars and bars do not fly in Trenton (although they might spruce the ghastly city up a bit). So maybe the evidence suggests that flags do not have this tendency to set people off on killing sprees?

Opposition to the Confederate flag these days seems to take the form mainly of pious preening from people who do not live in these states. When Mississippi held a referendum on whether or not to keep its old flag (complete with explicit "Confederate" imagery) sizeable numbers of blacks voted to keep it.

Not to rain on your parade or anything but the number of hate groups doesn't really matter. What matters is the amount of people in those hate groups.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

The appalling Southern Poverty Law Center -which will probably be able to build another "poverty palace" as a result of this- keeps data on "hate groups." It reports that in 2014 South Carolina had 19 hate groups, or ~4 for every million people. New Jersey has 40 such groups, or ~4.5 for every million people. And yet the stars and bars do not fly in Trenton (although they might spruce the ghastly city up a bit). So maybe the evidence suggests that flags do not have this tendency to set people off on killing sprees?

Opposition to the Confederate flag these days seems to take the form mainly of pious preening from people who do not live in these states. When Mississippi held a referendum on whether or not to keep its old flag (complete with explicit "Confederate" imagery) sizeable numbers of blacks voted to keep it.

I'm not seeing a breakdown by race. But I'm on my phone. Is there one?

Also. .. was it the Confederate flag itself or a design that had the symbol in another design?

Not arguing. Just curious.

 

[Cackalacky]

The confederate flag flies in front of the statehouse , in front of the capital of SC. Despite its short move due to compromise under threat of a boycott 15 years ago--it was a short move and it still flies in front of the capital and flies in the face of " all men were created equal". There is no honest justification for the reverence and respect that symbol of white supremacy holds in the south.

That's the pinch though. It's not a symbol of white supremacy to everyday southerner. It's an ever present reminder of the restriction of states rights and period in history when brave southern men stood up to the Northern Oppresors. "Heritage, Not Hate" is the saying.

 

[Bishop2b5]

That's the pinch though. It's not a symbol of white supremacy to everyday southerner. It's an ever present reminder of the restriction of states rights and period in history when brave southern men stood up to the Northern Oppresors. "Heritage, Not Hate" is the saying.

As a native Southerner, I strongly agree with that. Growing up, I never thought of the Confederate flag as being racist at all and never heard anyone else I knew, black or white, express such a view. It was just a symbol of being Southern and part of our history. Heck, plenty of the black guys I grew up with had Confederate flags. It's only been in the past few decades that it's taken on this "You're celebrating slavery" connection and become a symbol of hatred, bigotry, or oppression in some people's minds. Most Southerners don't hold those beliefs or think of the Confederate flag in those terms.

 

[Cackalacky]

As a native Southerner, I strongly agree with that. Growing up, I never thought of the Confederate flag as being racist at all and never heard anyone else I knew, black or white, express such a view. It was just a symbol of being Southern and part of our history. Heck, plenty of the black guys I grew up with had Confederate flags. It's only been in the past few decades that it's taken on this "You're celebrating slavery" connection and become a symbol of hatred, bigotry, or oppression in some people's minds. Most Southerners don't hold those beliefs or think of the Confederate flag in those terms.

Respectfully I disagree. Blacks have been pretty upset it with it for a while... Although SC didn't place theirs atop the State House till 1961 to honor the Centennial of Civil War.... It's been on the state flags of Alabama, Mississippi and Tennessee for a long time.
They also lacked the legislative and political power to do anything about it until recently. That's a big difference from not caring.

 

[Redbar]

As a native Southerner, I strongly agree with that. Growing up, I never thought of the Confederate flag as being racist at all and never heard anyone else I knew, black or white, express such a view. It was just a symbol of being Southern and part of our history. Heck, plenty of the black guys I grew up with had Confederate flags. It's only been in the past few decades that it's taken on this "You're celebrating slavery" connection and become a symbol of hatred, bigotry, or oppression in some people's minds. Most Southerners don't hold those beliefs or think of the Confederate flag in those terms.

I am a southerner too, probably at least your age, and everyone I knew, black and white, always knew what the flag meant with all of it's symbolic meanings. I am not saying that there isn't a person here and there that sincerely feels the way you do, but I do believe that what you are saying is largely disingenuous and misrepresents what most people know to be true. I am sure we could find some old germans who would craft the same arguments about the swastika. "It isn't a symbol of hate or supremacy, just part of our German heritage, when we stood up to the international powers that tried to hold us down after the Treaty of Versailles." They can do the ostrich routine... most of us know better.

Edit: Cack beat me to it.

 

[Cackalacky]

Charleston's Extraordinary Grace Moves MSNBC Reporter To Tears | Crooks and Liars
I love this place.

 

[Irish YJ]

As a native Southerner, I strongly agree with that. Growing up, I never thought of the Confederate flag as being racist at all and never heard anyone else I knew, black or white, express such a view. It was just a symbol of being Southern and part of our history. Heck, plenty of the black guys I grew up with had Confederate flags. It's only been in the past few decades that it's taken on this "You're celebrating slavery" connection and become a symbol of hatred, bigotry, or oppression in some people's minds. Most Southerners don't hold those beliefs or think of the Confederate flag in those terms.

I did not grow up with a racist view of the flag either. but..... Historical or not, it's taken on different meanings to different folks. There will never be a common understanding or acceptance. I grew up in Indy, and our mascot was the rebel. They still have the same name, but the gear is a whole lot different these days.

 

[IrishLax]

So every terrorist bomber is insane? The Boston Bombers were insane? IMO this young man, McVeigh, a lot of mass murders are completely sane, and they even have remorse for the innocents in a way, but they view their "mission" as larger than that. They place their ideals above their targets lives or even their own life, sort of like "give me --- or give me death." That does not = mental disorder.

Edit: Which begs an interesting question- Can someone's political views be seen as insane and them in turn by virtue of their holding them?

It all depends on your definition of sanity. The dictionary definition of sane is "of sound mind, not mad or mentally ill... reasonable, sensible." If we're talking about mental defects like schizophrenia, etc. he reportedly doesn't have anything like that.

But in general, I'd argue that anyone who does something like what happened in Charleston is, subjectively, violating most of that definition. But that's all relative. To me, you have to be insane to want to start a "civil war" and go murder people in a church, as any "reasonable/sensible" person would never conceive of doing something like that.

And it's clearly different than the criminal insanity defense... that requires specific conditions be met that weren't in this case. Being a sociopath or psychopath obviously doesn't give you a pass in the court of law, or most serial killers would get a free pass.

 

[NDgradstudent]

Not to rain on your parade or anything but the number of hate groups doesn't really matter. What matters is the amount of people in those hate groups.

Let's look at number of "hate crimes" per jurisdiction, which the FBI tracks. South Carolina reported 33 race-based hate crimes in 2013; New Jersey reported 187. You can see data for other states here.

I assume liberals would object that conservative states are less likely to count hate crimes. Of course, the entire notion of hate crimes is ludicrous, and conservatives are wary of them for that reason, but I still doubt that there is a massive gap in reporting. Also, liberal jurisdictions are probably over-eager to classify (or not classify) certain types of crimes as hate crimes, if it suits them. For example, I have personally witnessed an assault upon a conservative organization not being classified as a hate crime by the D.C. police department's comical "hate unit" because hate crimes cannot be committed against conservative organizations.

I'm not seeing a breakdown by race. But I'm on my phone. Is there one?

Also. .. was it the Confederate flag itself or a design that had the symbol in another design?

Not arguing. Just curious.

There is not a formal breakdown by race, but there are quite a few black-majority counties in Mississippi, and higher percentages of these voted for the old flag than the percentage of blacks as a share of their population. Blacks voted against the flag overall, but a sizeable proportion (probably 30%+, because not all whites voted to keep it) voted to keep the old flag.

It was not the Confederate flag as such, but the stars and bars are clearly included in the "old" (current) flag. The proposed flag that was rejected is here.

 

[pkt77242]

Let's look at number of "hate crimes" per jurisdiction, which the FBI tracks. South Carolina reported 33 race-based hate crimes in 2013; New Jersey reported 187. You can see data for other states here.

I assume liberals would object that conservative states are less likely to count hate crimes. Of course, the entire notion of hate crimes is ludicrous, and conservatives are wary of them for that reason, but I still doubt that there is a massive gap in reporting. Also, liberal jurisdictions are probably over-eager to classify (or not classify) certain types of crimes as hate crimes, if it suits them. For example, I have personally witnessed an assault upon a conservative organization not being classified as a hate crime by the D.C. police department's comical "hate unit" because hate crimes cannot be committed against conservative organizations.



There is not a formal breakdown by race, but there are quite a few black-majority counties in Mississippi, and higher percentages of these voted for the old flag than the percentage of blacks as a share of their population. Blacks voted against the flag overall, but a sizeable proportion (probably 30%+, because not all whites voted to keep it) voted to keep the old flag.

It was not the Confederate flag as such, but the stars and bars are clearly included in the "old" (current) flag. The proposed flag that was rejected is here.

What We Know About Hate Crimes In South Carolina | FiveThirtyEight