A Song of Ice and Fire (Spoilers! Only enter if you have read all books)

phork

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Ramsay causes Stannis to burn his daughter alive by burning some supplies? A horse burns as if it's soaked in kerosene even though it's in the middle of a blizzard? The Dornish go from utter hatred of the Lannisters for their slaughter of Elia Martell to "nah, bro, we're cool with your twincest because sex... you do you"? Tyrion gets to Slaver's Bay via Valyria as a stowaway faster than Mace Tyrell can reach Braavos with the authority of the Crown and the resources of Highgarden?

Stannis burns his daughter because Mel says they are screwed without doing it. His army is freezing, can't attack and can't retreat. What better way to send a message to the frozen army than to light a horse on fire and send it through the camp crying in agony... The others I can't argue.
 

wizards8507

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What better way to send a message to the frozen army than to light a horse on fire and send it through the camp crying in agony.
How do you think horses work? I don't think they just catch on fire and stay on fire like that.
 

Emcee77

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It just bothers me that they don't seem to get it.

Either that, or they know so much more than we do that they're making wholesale changes because they DO get it.

Like maybe Stannis gets beaten back by the Boltons and then in desperation he does make the decision to sacrifice Shireen. Maybe Doran... true to book... is just pretending to be cool/calm/collected and is about to pull some serious shit (i.e. getting people inside King's Landing to then assassinate Tommen and put Myrcella/Tristan on the throne).

Maybe they really, really get it... but sometimes the decisions on screen are just total headscratchers. Never more so than last night.

Yeah, that's pretty much my reaction. Who knows where they are going with this stuff. Maybe they have some amazing stuff in store for the last couple seasons that we don't and can't know about. I still think it's possible that D&D may have decided that some of Martin's intended endgame events are just unworkable in one way or another, and they are going in a totally different direction. But based just on what we know or think we know from the books, and assuming it still makes sense to view the show in light of what we know about the books, last night's episode was full of headscratchers.
 

wizards8507

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Come on Wiz don't be that guy. It's a world of magic, anything is possible.
Ramsay isn't a wizard. I am. I know how to burn a horse with magic, and that ain't it. Everyone knows that magic flames are green. N00b.
 

phork

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Also, so much for dragonscales being virtually impenetrable.

But we really don't know Dragon Physiology. These dragons are not full grown and perhaps have not developed the impenetrable scales or melting dragon breath. As witnessed by Arya's encounter with a Dragon Skull:

468px-Arya_Dragon.jpg
 

wizards8507

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Ask the Maester: Dragons, Human Sacrifice, and More Dragons «

Crackpot theory: A few years back, when Thrones showrunners David Benioff and D.B. Weiss met with George R.R. Martin in Santa Fe so that the author could map out his story to its end — beyond what exists in the books — Martin, in the great tradition of J.J. Abrams, Carlton Cuse, and every writer everywhere whose job is to literally make things up as they go along, just kind of told B&W a bunch of bullshit. I mean, not total bullshit. That’s harsh. But, like, he’s sure of the solid brickwork of those story points, with the gaps mortared together with some yada yada. Again, that’s a writer’s job. And, really, who among us would not go so far as to build a 700-foot-tall wall of bullshit once the six- and seven-figure checks started flying to and fro? Is Martin going to be like, “No, I don’t really know the ending. I guess I’ll give the money back.” Do you really think the whole reason he hasn’t finished the books is because he writes slowly?

That’s how I explain Benioff and Weiss dropping a “When George told us about this …” as a way to explain how they arrived at the scene from “The Dance of Dragons” in which Stannis Baratheon has his daughter Shireen burned at the stake to gain the favor of the Lord of Light. Because, OK, apparently that will happen in the books. But it doesn’t happen on the march to Winterfell in the books, and the timing matters because context matters.

What bothers me about the scene is that it’s based on a character acting in a way that’s counter to how he’s been depicted all series. Stannis has been depicted as one of the greatest generals in the realm. He held the Storm’s End against a one-year siege by eating rats. So if the device that gets Stannis to the place where he’s desperate enough to burn his only daughter and heir alive is (1) some snow and (2) a sudden and convenient ineptitude at doing war stuff, that feels off to me. Stannis, “the greatest military commander in Westeros” per Davos, is in enemy territory, on the march toward a belligerent castle, and for some reason (i.e., to make this scene happen) he doesn’t have scouts out or watchmen guarding the camp or have his army — made up largely of professional mercenaries who themselves should know better — in the state of alertness necessary in a war. Also: Ramsay is now a ninja. I don’t buy it.

Of course bad things happen on Game of Thrones. But when you arrive at those things through contrivances, it cheapens the shock. It’s about consistent storytelling.
 

phork

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The problem is you are approaching this thing as a book reader and a "purist" if you will. The simple fact is that this show will be wrapped up in probably 3 more seasons. Characters are dropped because they are irrelevant to the end story yet added flavour to the books. Characters with meaning but no end game play are merged with other characters to get those story lines sorted out. And obviously our main characters are here.

I find it interesting especially as we now start to delve into the world passed the books that the purists don't know how to react anymore. All of us book readers knew about the Red Wedding and other shocking events and watched with glee as the internet melted down. Now its unfamiliar.

We can blame this or that or D&D or GRRM or whoever. The fact is the TV show has a timeline to keep and they are keeping it. GRRM will get Winds out next year sometime, but I am not so sure that Dream will be ready anytime in the next decade.
 

wizards8507

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The problem is you are approaching this thing as a book reader and a "purist" if you will.
We've been over this. The show isn't just violating principles from the books. It's violating principles already established within the show itself.

What bothers me about the scene is that it’s based on a character acting in a way that’s counter to how he’s been depicted all series. Stannis has been depicted as one of the greatest generals in the realm. He held the Storm’s End against a one-year siege by eating rats. So if the device that gets Stannis to the place where he’s desperate enough to burn his only daughter and heir alive is (1) some snow and (2) a sudden and convenient ineptitude at doing war stuff, that feels off to me. Stannis, “the greatest military commander in Westeros” per Davos, is in enemy territory, on the march toward a belligerent castle, and for some reason (i.e., to make this scene happen) he doesn’t have scouts out or watchmen guarding the camp or have his army — made up largely of professional mercenaries who themselves should know better — in the state of alertness necessary in a war. Also: Ramsay is now a ninja. I don’t buy it.
I'm not complaining that Show Stannis is different than Book Stannis. I'm complaining that Show Stannis violated facts we know to be true about Show Stannis.
 

IrishLion

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I'm still pissed that Selmy got ruined, and that appeared to be for no reason other than "one less character moving forward."

Now that Jorah is back, it seems that he can organize Dany's defenses while she's gone, which was Selmy's job in the books (as certain preview chapters of TWoW show us).

Speaking of that: Where was Jorah as of the end of ADwD, and what the hell happened to show-version Grey Worm? Is he still recovering somewhere, or was he just not highlighted during the fighting pit massacre?
 

Emcee77

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Good piece.

For me the episode was just way too brutal and disgustingly rendered on television. I'm not sure I've ever been so horrified. And as the author of wizards's piece argued, even if you have to get to Shireen's sacrifice, there would have been ways to do it that felt less contrived.

Some of the other, more general Stannis-would-never-do-that objections to last Sunday's episode have been a little unfair, imo. The problem with that argument for me is that a character "going too far" like Stannis did is kind of a necessary component for tragedy. I read this piece recently:

Game of Thrones is a classical tragedy. Don't be so shocked by the deaths.

I actually disagree with about 90% of what the author says, but it's fair to point out, as she does, that tragedy is full of characters who do something shocking that the audience can't understand.

T.S. Eliot wrote a famous essay in which he argued basically that Hamlet isn't good literature because it is impossible to understand Hamlet's indecision; no one would actually behave like he does in the play. I of course agree that Hamlet's indecision is difficult to understand, but like most people I disagree that it makes the play bad literature. Tragic characters always have fatal flaws which cause them to make crucial mistakes. It is the defining characteristic of tragedy. Stannis's fatal flaw has been revealed to be his devotion to duty and his placing his belief that as the lawful king of Westeros, and as such, he MUST ascend the Iron Throne, above all other values. For me, that by itself isn't necessarily bad writing, or it's at least debatable whether it is.

And I like the "crackpot theory" in the piece wizards linked. That's kind of what I was saying earlier in the thread. I'm worried that Martin just can't get where he wants to go.
 

IrishinSyria

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The more I think about it, the more I like the Shireen scene. All of Stannis's internal contradictions came to a head, and the outcome was terrible. Should be very interesting to see where the show goes with it.
 

Whiskeyjack

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Looks like Ghost Jon and nekkid Cersei confirmed for S5E10. Also, Selyse hangs herself.
 

wizards8507

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Looks like Ghost Jon and nekkid Cersei confirmed for S5E10. Also, Selyse hangs herself.
Are you kidding me HBO? "Killing" Jon Snow is plenty of shock on which to end your season. Giving him warg eyes is nothing but a giant "fuck you" to the book readers.
 

Huntr

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Are you kidding me HBO? "Killing" Jon Snow is plenty of shock on which to end your season. Giving him warg eyes is nothing but a giant "fuck you" to the book readers.

Ehhh, that shit doesn't bother me. Some folks really gonna be pissed when Martin scews around and doesn't get WoW out before Apr '16.

Read his last blog post - he's doing about 40 things other than hammering out the next book.
 

Huntr

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Because it spoils the next book by letting us know Jon survives the stabbin by warging, probably into Ghost.

Buuut, I mean, we pretty much knew that or close enough, right? R+L does in fact = J and he is the mutha fuggin AA reborn. He is here to kick ass and chew gum and he is all out of gum. Rest is just details, IMO. Not everyone agrees.
 

wizards8507

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Because it's a spoiler just for spoiler's sake. Allowing the Unsullied (show-only) people to wonder "is Jon really dead?" until next season is plenty of shock value and a brilliant cliffhanger. ANSWERING the question by saying "nah...he's not dead, just warged into Ghost" is at best a lateral move from a cliffhanger perspective but spoils the mystery for book people who are holding out hope that somehow TWOW is released before Season 6.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 4 using Tapatalk.
 

IrishinTN

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Ah, gotcha. I guess, since it's been so long since Martin wrote the last and my (as well as most of you)assumption/expectation has always been that that is what happens, I think it became reality to me because I've forgotten exactly how it ended.
 

gkIrish

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HYPE!

Can you imagine if Benjen shows up tomorrow night????

I have no idea where that came from and it doesn't make any sense if it's season 5, episode 9 but can we please stop posting TV spoilers? The spoiler alert in this thread is to warn non-book readers but I know that I don't want to know TV spoilers.
 

GATTACA!

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I have no idea where that came from and it doesn't make any sense if it's season 5, episode 9 but can we please stop posting TV spoilers? The spoiler alert in this thread is to warn non-book readers but I know that I don't want to know TV spoilers.

It's from the opening recap for the next episode so it's not really spoilery. Just odd that they spent 1/4 of the opening recap on Benjen and specifically said his name multiple times. Could be nothing but if he shows back up its gigantic. That would be the first sighting of Benjen in 18 real world years.
 

IrishinSyria

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I don't really think warg eyes alone would be that big of a spoiler, especially because the opening chapter with 6 skins basically spells out that it will happen that way and the show needs some way of conveying that without feeling like déjà ex machina next season. There's plenty of speculating left to do if all we know is that snow goes warg eyes...

That being said, I'm with GK...it would be great if people could stop dropping show spoilers in here.
 

gkIrish

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It's from the opening recap for the next episode so it's not really spoilery. Just odd that they spent 1/4 of the opening recap on Benjen and specifically said his name multiple times. Could be nothing but if he shows back up its gigantic. That would be the first sighting of Benjen in 18 real world years.

Yeah I mean Benjen is definitely a fan favorite and him showing up would be absolutely insane in any context. Everyone wants to know what happened to him.
 
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