Duggar Family

[wizards8507]

2) It brought up Huckabee's involvement, which IE members didn't try to bring out of cold air to "potray republicans as kiddie diddlers". It was brought up because them expunging the records and Huckabee's open support on social media are a big part of the story. But please, continue to expand on your IE Thinks Repubs Are Peddies Conspiracy. That seems more plausible.

I'm not talking about members' motivations, I'm talking about Slate's motivations.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 4 using Tapatalk.

 

[pkt77242]

1. News broke years ago. Why is it being brought up now?

2. I'm not defending anything. I merely objected to the use of the term "child molestation." I didn't say it was good or okay, just that "child molester" carries connotations of a full grown adult preying on a child.

3. I didn't bring up politics. See the Slate.com article that Jayhawk linked before I posted a single thing in this thread.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 4 using Tapatalk.

1. The news broke long before they were popular (and I believe before they had their own show). I bet before it came out this time that 90-95% of people had no idea it happened. So it was bound to come out again and it was bound to cause a firestorm.

2. It is child molestation.

 

[woolybug25]

I'm not talking about members' motivations, I'm talking about Slate's motivations.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 4 using Tapatalk.

That's the story here for you? Whether the Slate has a political agenda?

I think the rest of us are more interested in the child molestation (yes, I used the term. Since it fits the actual definition of child molestation) and the corresponding cover up. Than trying to tie some bizarre link to a conspiracy against Republicans.

 

[pkt77242]

I brought up the Slate article to illustrate some of the non-mainstream Christian beliefs of the family. I wasn't attempting to bring a political bent to the topic.

The article also didn't imply that all Republicans think that gay people are child molesters. It does note that the Duggar family thinks that gay people are likely to be child molesters. That's pertinent.

Like this robobcall

Michelle Duggar Records Transphobic Robocall Opposing Arkansas Anti-Discrimination Bill

Hello, this is Michelle Duggar. I’m calling to inform you of some shocking news that would affect the safety of Northwest Arkansas women and children. The Fayetteville City Council is voting on an ordinance this Tuesday night that would allow men – yes, I said men – to use women's and girls' restrooms, locker rooms, showers, sleeping areas and other areas that are designated for females only. I don’t believe the citizens of Fayetteville would want males with past child predator convictions that claim they are female to have a legal right to enter private areas that are reserved for women and girls. I doubt that Fayetteville parents would stand for a law that would endanger their daughters or allow them to be traumatized by a man joining them in their private space. We should never place the preference of an adult over the safety and innocence of a child. Parents, who do you want undressing next to your daughter at the public swimming pool’s private changing area?

 

[dales5050]

GTFO with that. Can we get a neg bomb?

Did I offend you?

I just prayed about it and now you must forgive me.

 

[Bishop2b5]

I wonder what caused this kid to do this. Most people who molest children were themselves molested or otherwise abused. I know of a case where two boys in their early teens actually raped a 5-year-old girl. It was later learned that their dad had been raping them. It's rare that a person does something like this without it being the product of something traumatic in their own past. I'd bet this kid was molested by someone before he ever touched his sisters.

 

[pkt77242]

A timeline of the molestation allegations against Josh Duggar - The Washington Post

Timelines are helpful.

March 2002: This is when the Duggar parents say they were first made aware of allegations that a person in their home was improperly touching others, according to a 2006 statement to police. The couple added that the person confessed to the behavior in July of that same year. Josh Duggar would have been about 14 years old at the time these incidents occurred.

May 2002: Jim Bob Duggar, the family patriarch, who served in the state legislature as a representative from 1999-2002, loses a primary bid for the Republican nomination for the U.S. Senate.

March 2003: According to the report’s 2006 statement from Jim Bob Duggar and his wife, Michelle, to police, there was a second incident that month. Jim Bob Duggar first told the elders at his church about the incidents about the same time.

March 17 to July 17, 2003: At the agreement of the elders at the Duggars’ church, the report says, the person was sent to a Christian treatment program.

In his apology earlier this week, here is how Josh Duggar appeared to describe a similar situation: “We spoke with the authorities where I confessed my wrongdoing, and my parents arranged for me and those affected by my actions to receive counseling.”

In a separate interview with police, Michelle Duggar later says that the treatment program the person attended was not with a certified counselor but with a “guy they knew in Little Rock who is remodeling a building,” the report says.

The Democrat-Gazette has this to say about “the old Veteran’s Hospital in Little Rock,” the location given by Jim Bob Duggar as the site of the counseling:

Pulaski County assessor’s records show the nearly 500,000-square-foot former VA hospital building was purchased by Hobby Lobby in 1998.

The craft-store company then donated the building in 2000 to the Institute in Basic Life Principles, an Illinois-based ministry founded by televangelist Bill Gothard.

Shortly after the institute acquired the building, Gothard began renovating the space, saying it would be used for the Little Rock Training Center, which would house “court-referred youthful offenders in the organization’s Bible-based rehabilitation program,” according to an April 2000 article in the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette.

Bill Gothard’s teachings have been promoted by the Duggar family in the past. In 2014, Gothard resigned from the Institute in Basic Life Principles following allegations of sexual harassment, molestation and failing to report child abuse. A spokesman for the Institute couldn’t confirm or deny to the Democrat-Gazette whether a youth treatment program was in place at the building in 2003.

July 2003: According to Jim Bob Duggar’s statement to police, this is the first time that the family tells a law enforcement official about the incidents in their home. The 2006 report says that the discussion between a church elder, a person believed to be Josh Duggar, and Jim Bob Duggar was with a corporal in the Arkansas State Police, who gave the person “a very stern talk” about his actions. The matter went no further at this time, according to the report, and the corporal told the group who approached him that because they “had already put [redacted] through a treatment program, there was nothing else to do.”

That officer, Joseph Truman Hutchens, is currently serving a 56-year prison sentence in an Arkansas Department of Correction facility for child pornography offenses.

September 2004: The Duggars star in their first big national television special, “14 Children and Pregnant Again!” The special aired on Discovery Health. The Duggars did a series of specials from 2004 to 2007 that documented the births of the 15th, 16th, and 17th Duggar children, as well as the family’s move into a larger home.

May 23, 2006: Jim Bob Duggar runs in a Republican primary for a seat in the Arkansas Senate. He loses the primary bid by 200 votes.

Dec. 7, 2006: An anonymous tipster calls the Arkansas Child Abuse HotMichiganline, 3½ years after the first time the alleged offense was brought to police. Springdale Police reach out to the Duggar family to schedule interviews to investigate and are told that the family is in Chicago until Dec. 11.

On the same day, an anonymous source sends an e-mail to Harpo Studios in Chicago. The e-mail seeks to warn Oprah Winfrey’s television program against airing a scheduled interview with the family because of the allegations. The producers of Oprah’s show passed along the e-mail to law enforcement.

Dec. 12, 2006: Springdale police begin interviewing Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar, along with the person believed to be Josh Duggar and the victims.

Dec. 20, 2006: Investigators determine that the statute of limitations has expired and that no charges may be filed.

2007: As Gawker reporter Allie Jones (who, for disclosure, was a past colleague of this reporter at the Atlantic Wire) has written, 2007 is approximately when similar rumors of sexual misconduct begin to appear online, mainly on comment threads and forums that focus on the Duggars. At the time, the rumors do not appear to be substantiated by any publicly available information.

The same year, a reporter for the Northwest Arkansas Times, who now works for the Democrat-Gazette, finds a court document for a case titled Josh Duggar vs. the Arkansas Department of Human Services. The Democrat-Gazette reports:

A trial in that case took place Aug. 6, 2007, according to notes attached to the file. Sealed cases aren’t supposed to be left in public view, but the Duggar case file had been left in a stack of routine court filings at the circuit clerk’s office. The reporter saw no other information on the case at the time.

According to the Democrat-Gazette, the reporter asked Jim Bob and Josh Duggar about the trial at the time, but they declined to comment.

[How do evangelicals view the Duggars? It’s complicated.]

2008: TLC’s series following the Duggar family, then called “17 Kids and Counting,” premieres.

June 2013: Josh Duggar, then 25, moves with his wife and children from Arkansas to Washington to take a job with the Family Research Council.

February to May 19, 2015: TLC airs the most recent season of “19 Kids and Counting.” One episode features the gender-reveal party for the child Josh and his wife, Anna, are expecting this year.

May 19: In Touch Weekly, a tabloid, publishes an article alleging that Josh Duggar was the subject of an investigation into allegations that he molested multiple girls as a teenager.

May 21: In Touch Weekly publishes a follow-up to its original article, this time with a police report online that, it says, details the allegations against Josh Duggar. In Touch reports that it obtained the police report through a Freedom of Information request. The Democrat-Gazette is also able to obtain the document through an FOI request, but a Thursday FOI request from The Washington Post was answered on the same day with a court order, dated May 21, ordering that the police report in question be destroyed. The order was a result of a “motion to expunge” from one of the alleged victims.

That evening, Josh Duggar issues an apology for unspecified “wrongdoing” he committed as a teenager, and he resigns from his job as the executive director of the Family Research Council’s lobbying arm. “Twelve years ago, as a young teenager, I acted inexcusably for which I am extremely sorry and deeply regret,” the statement reads.

This was Josh’s full statement:

Twelve years ago, as a young teenager I acted inexcusably for which I am extremely sorry and deeply regret. I hurt others, including my family and close friends. I confessed this to my parents who took several steps to help me address the situation. We spoke with the authorities where I confessed my wrongdoing and my parents arranged for me and those affected by my actions to receive counseling. I understood that if I continued down this wrong road that I would end up ruining my life. I sought forgiveness from those I had wronged and asked Christ to forgive me and come into my life. I would do anything to go back to those teen years and take different actions. In my life today, I am so very thankful for God’s grace, mercy and redemption.

That evening, TLC continues to air a marathon of past “19 Kids and Counting” episodes.

May 22: TLC announces that, effective immediately, the network is pulling all episodes of “19 Kids and Counting” from its schedule. “We are deeply saddened and troubled by this heartbreaking situation, and our thoughts and prayers are with the family and victims at this difficult time,” the statement says.

On the same day, Springdale Police Department spokesman Scott Lewis confirms to reporters that the department has destroyed the police report in question. Speaking to the Associated Press, Lewis says, “The judge ordered us yesterday to expunge that record … as far as the Springdale Police Department is concerned this report doesn’t exist.” Similar reports, Lewis added, are typically kept on file indefinitely.

Also it looks like he was 15 when one of the incidences happened.

 

[pkt77242]

Also on a side note, how do the Duggars know so many people who are molesters or watchers of child porn?

 

[dublinirish]

Also on a side note, how do the Duggars know so many people who are molesters or watchers of child porn?

purely coincidental!

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Good article, Dub!

I think all of you who don't have the line, "fondling while they sleep" as a line to cross that changes everything, needs to familiarize yourself with up-to-date, scientific information about molestation.

It doesn't matter whether he was fourteen or eighteen, targeting multiple (four sisters and how many others, and that is just what has made the news so far) young girls while they sleep is it. All of it. That clearly shows the issue, it isn't sexual (exclusively), it is power and control.

All molestation is power and control. That is why no one else, regardless of sexual orientation or experience crosses this line by mistake. Never. If someone crosses this line they are a molester, and they won't do anything but harm.

To prove this case in it's own example, he had five sisters, right? They were ages 15 to 5, I think. He fondled four of them. Which four? The youngest four. Who would fondle a five year old when two of his sisters could have had been much closer to maturity?

I can tell you that at fourteen I would never have fondled a five year old under any circumstances. How many of you like I fondled more that one young lady in the thirteen to sixteen year old age group!

Our feelings were young love; a young man feeling that rush of hormones, and that call to life. Nothing at all like the motivation of any person who fondles undeveloped genitalia of a five year old!

 

[GoldenDome]

Funny he can crack jokes about incestuous relationships. I wonder how his sisters felt when he said this.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/o0vSNSIGASE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[phork]

Lol what a tool.

 

[dublinirish]

Josh Duggar Scandal: Michael Seewald Writes Blog Post Reaction : People.com

"How many of you would broadcast the sins of your children to the whole world? Would you be willing to publicize your own darkest moments?" Seewald, a devout Christian, asked in the blog post.

BULLSHIT... If my child was a victim of abuse from anybody of course I'd report it. It sounds to me like the Duggars value their son above their daughters. Which sounds quite typical of their beliefs unfortunately

 

[ulukinatme]

I'm surprised TLC didn't do any background checks or inquire about anything like this prior to starting the show. I haven't followed this thing very closely, but I imagine the show is probably done at this point.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

I'm surprised TLC didn't do any background checks or inquire about anything like this prior to starting the show. I haven't followed this thing very closely, but I imagine the show is probably done at this point.

So you think that no one at TLC knew about this?

With what they were paying the Duggar family alone, this program must have been a cash cow. Money talks, and sometimes victims don't.

 

[ulukinatme]

I wonder what caused this kid to do this. Most people who molest children were themselves molested or otherwise abused. I know of a case where two boys in their early teens actually raped a 5-year-old girl. It was later learned that their dad had been raping them. It's rare that a person does something like this without it being the product of something traumatic in their own past. I'd bet this kid was molested by someone before he ever touched his sisters.

It's very possible. While it isn't always the case, I've known a few people that were raped as children/teens and a few of them perpetuated the same crime on someone younger than them (Both under 18, like in the Duggar's case) later on. It's a sad circle of abuse.

 

[ulukinatme]

So you think that no one at TLC knew about this?

With what they were paying the Duggar family alone, this program must have been a cash cow. Money talks, and sometimes victims don't.

Who can say. Logically I'm not sure I would pursue a show if there's some back history that could potentially threaten to take it off the air as we've seen scandals kill some other shows in the past, but maybe they did know about it and decided to bet against the public finding out about the transgressions.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Who can say. Logically I'm not sure I would pursue a show if there's some back history that could potentially threaten to take it off the air as we've seen scandals kill some other shows in the past, but maybe they did know about it and decided to bet against the public finding out about the transgressions.

One scenario : They heard about it but were told it was no big deal, and believed it.

 

[dublinirish]

One scenario : They heard about it but were told it was no big deal, and believed it.

yeah they probably told TLC he had been given counselling and was "cured" while in fact he was remodelling a house in Little Rock with a paedo

 

[phork]

No different than the Seahawks drafting Frank Clark and pleading dumb to his past.

 

[pkt77242]

In 2002, Jim Bob Duggar said incest should be a capital crime | Arkansas Blog | Arkansas news, politics, opinion, restaurants, music, movies and art

The interesting part

Gawker's Defamer blog digs into the Internet wayback machines for some campaign literature from 2002, when Jim Bob Duggar ran for U.S. Senate. In the course of discussing his opposition to abortion in all circumstances, he said incest should be a capital crime (punishable by the death penalty).

Funny how his opinion changes when it is his own child perpetrating the crime.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

And the quote itself :

If a woman is raped, the rapist should be executed instead of the innocent unborn baby. Adoption is an option. Many couples would love to adopt and are waiting for a baby. Abortion has been and always will be the destruction of an innocent child. Rape and incest represent heinous crimes and as such should be treated as capital crimes. The developing infant committed no crime and should be allowed to live. In the unlikely event that the life of both mother and baby would both be lost (for example, a tubal pregnancy) all should be done to save the life of the mother.

Read more at Jim Bob Duggar: Rape and Incest Should be Capital Crimes? - snopes.com : snopes.com

 

[L-cart ND-ana]

Juvenile Sex offenses and offenders is a tricky thing to think about and talk about. I think a persons initial reaction is to shoot first and ask questions later but it is WAAAAAy more complex than that.

I worked at a Juvenile Treatment Facility in Phoenix, AZ working about 16-40 juvenile sex offenders. And like someone said earlier in this thread, is that most, if not all, were victims themselves. Think about that for a second. When I started this job I thought I would just get disgusted and quit days or weeks later but then I came to realize that its deeper than just getting your rocks off on little boys and girls. These kids hated what they had done, hated themselves, and just hated the whole situation.

To hear some of the stories of being the victim before becoming the perp sort of made me feel sorry for them. It was a struggle that I witnessed on a daily basis. Its sad at that young of age, even 14-17 is sad really.

Side note: I met Malik Zaires father (Imani Zaire) while working there. I am pretty sure he still works there.

 

[woolybug25]

Juvenile Sex offenses and offenders is a tricky thing to think about and talk about. I think a persons initial reaction is to shoot first and ask questions later but it is WAAAAAy more complex than that.

I worked at a Juvenile Treatment Facility in Phoenix, AZ working about 16-40 juvenile sex offenders. And like someone said earlier in this thread, is that most, if not all, were victims themselves. Think about that for a second. When I started this job I thought I would just get disgusted and quit days or weeks later but then I came to realize that its deeper than just getting your rocks off on little boys and girls. These kids hated what they had done, hated themselves, and just hated the whole situation.

To hear some of the stories of being the victim before becoming the perp sort of made me feel sorry for them. It was a struggle that I witnessed on a daily basis. Its sad at that young of age, even 14-17 is sad really.

Side note: I met Malik Zaires father (Imani Zaire) while working there. I am pretty sure he still works there.

Those same things can be said against adult offenders as well. A lot of them feel terrible for what they did and were abused themselves in the past. I don't how that makes teens different or the issue more complicated.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Those same things can be said against adult offenders as well. A lot of them feel terrible for what they did and were abused themselves in the past. I don't how that makes teens different or the issue more complicated.

Actually, you are exactly right. I have all the empathy in the world for someone who was abused as a child, whether they turn up to be abusers or not. Many, do not.

But you have to stop the cycle somewhere. I have never advocated violence as a response to this or any kind of abuse on this site. Yet there has to be an emphatic line drawn, in every case. I say it should be at first touch, regardless of age, or sex of offender. Unlike the father in this case, I do not believe in capitol punishment for these offenses, nor mutilation, or any other kind of corporal punishment (necessarily).

But I do believe in a swift and consistent response. Keeping these offenders away from their targets is the first step, which is probably the greatest natural consequence to such an action. The lack of trust, and suspension of some civil liberties is the beginning. I am not smart enough to cobble together a working plan for the rest. But it can be done.

It isn't going to be done if people don't take the politics (race, sex, and more) out of it. I have seen nasty pedophiles grow out of, "Oh, he is just sewing his wild oats, the kid is becoming a man, etc., ad nauseam." That is all B.S. and indicative of the misogynistic bent sometimes present in our society. I have even seen it (that misogynistic bent) expressed on this site in the past.

It has to stop somewhere. Guys like Jim Bob stand up and make ridiculous, knee-jerk statements like this whole thing about rape and incest, and on the other hand they are condoning just that in their own families! CNN and Fox News (especially FOX NEWS) shows the first part all the time! Where were they when Josh was diddling his sisters and others?

Because if one thing is clear, this thing was out their for any investigative reporter to find. Hell, Oprah even tried to turn them in, that should have been enough to make news all by itself! Thank goodness this horrible situation at least pointed out such criminal hypocrisy! (Jim Bob, his ilk, other supportive politicians, and the media, in general!)

And to tie the Baltimore thread, (about the media's role), to this; it is another perfect case of how the media tells a stupid (dumber and dumber) fat and lazy middle class exactly what they want to hear, to reinforce all of their stereotypes. This helps extend the comfort zone of high fructose, air-conditioned, climate-controlled, 585 channel cable or satellite TV, arm-chair comfort, with which the American flab-class observes the world around everyone else.

 

[Bishop2b5]

Those same things can be said against adult offenders as well. A lot of them feel terrible for what they did and were abused themselves in the past. I don't how that makes teens different or the issue more complicated.

An adult is more capable of knowing right from wrong, gaining some insight into what was done to them, and understanding why they shouldn't do to another what was done to them. A teen is still, to a great extent (especially younger teens), incapable of such insight and judgment.

I'm not justifying a 14-year-old doing something like this. As a dad of 6, including 5 girls, I'm as prone to shoot first and ask questions later as anyone when it comes to child molesting. My gut reaction is torture, death, mutilation, and then feed their carcass to the dogs... and do it all publicly pour encourager les autres, but I've seen enough to know it's usually a LOT more complicated than that.

What do you do with a child such as Mary Bell who commits murder and sexually abuses and mutilates another child as a result of her own abuse? She was passed around to clients by her prostitute mom from the age of four and raped & molested repeatedly. It's one thing to just say, "Throw her away" but it's not that simple when you stop and ask yourself what happened to this child, what made her this way and how much culpability does a child that age bear given what's been done to them? If she's still committing assault at 20 or 30 that's another story, but at 10 or 11?

How do you permanently condemn a child who's been through something like that and hasn't reached an age where they're able to deal with it or be accountable for their behavior that's a response to what happened to them? Are they permanently damaged beyond repair, even though it's not their fault? Do you lock them away or put them to death? Can they be salvaged? How much of their behavior are they responsible for and at what age? Tough questions and I don't have a good answer.

 

[Irishbounty28]

What would be the typical punishment for underage individual committing such acts? Are they usually required to register as a sex offender? Obviously they would be required to go through some type of treatment program I would assume. I'm just really uneducated when it comes to this type of thing, and the repercussions and punishments for minors.

 

[Bishop2b5]

What would be the typical punishment for underage individual committing such acts? Are they usually required to register as a sex offender? Obviously they would be required to go through some type of treatment program I would assume. I'm just really uneducated when it comes to this type of thing, and the repercussions and punishments for minors.

It varies widely depending on each state's laws, the specifics of each case, and can vary widely between judges or social workers dealing with the cases. For the most part, the perpetrator is sent to a juvenile facility and undergoes varying degrees of treatment, but some are sent to mental institutions where they typically receive a lot more therapy.

One of the issues is what do you actually do with a kid who's been abused and then abuses someone else? You can feel sorry for the kid and understand that what happened to them caused their behavior and maybe they had no real control over what they did given their age and what they've been through. Still, they're dangerous and you can't just pat them on the back, give 'em a hug and turn them loose to do it again. They have to be locked away in a hospital or a juvenile detention center for the protection of everyone else, but it's still heartbreaking to know what that kid's been through, what was done to him, and that he's like that through no fault of his own.

 

[L-cart ND-ana]

Those same things can be said against adult offenders as well. A lot of them feel terrible for what they did and were abused themselves in the past. I don't how that makes teens different or the issue more complicated.

Its totally different. That is why we have a juvenile system and an adult system. Adults have harsher penalties for a reason and that reason is because it is different and it is more complicated.

A juvenile shoplifter, muderer, sex offender will not get into as much trouble as an adult shoplifter, murderer, sex offender because with age should come knowledge, maturity, restraint, coping skills, and on and on and on and on the list goes. Things get more complicated when the juvenile has parents or is surrounded by people that just trigger or reinforce certain behaviors. Kids, to some extent, cannot control much of thier world, some more than others.

Also you could take this another route use the gay gene arguement (this will light a fire under some people). Maybe they were just born that way. Studies have said people can be born naturally more agressive which might lead to a violent future. Studies have said people are born with addictive personalities (drugs, alcohol, SEX, etc.). So using the gay gene arguement maybe we can conclude that some kids, even adults, are just born that way. Maybe the abuse triggers something like cocaine or alcohol does to addicts/alcoholics and they just crave sexually acting out.

 

[woolybug25]

Its totally different. That is why we have a juvenile system and an adult system. Adults have harsher penalties for a reason and that reason is because it is different and it is more complicated.

A juvenile shoplifter, muderer, sex offender will not get into as much trouble as an adult shoplifter, murderer, sex offender because with age should come knowledge, maturity, restraint, coping skills, and on and on and on and on the list goes. Things get more complicated when the juvenile has parents or is surrounded by people that just trigger or reinforce certain behaviors. Kids, to some extent, cannot control much of thier world, some more than others.

Also you could take this another route use the gay gene arguement (this will light a fire under some people). Maybe they were just born that way. Studies have said people can be born naturally more agressive which might lead to a violent future. Studies have said people are born with addictive personalities (drugs, alcohol, SEX, etc.). So using the gay gene arguement maybe we can conclude that some kids, even adults, are just born that way. Maybe the abuse triggers something like cocaine or alcohol does to addicts/alcoholics and they just crave sexually acting out.

I agree with the last part, but I'm not sure how it helps your "teens are different" argument? If it's truly a genetic predisposition, then it isn't something that can be rehabilitated nor differentiated between adults and teens.

I have no idea what the first point is though. Cases with kids are different and more complicated because they are "complicated and different"? So pretty much just it is because it is?