'12 IN QB Gunner Kiel (Cincinnati Transfer)

[Irish YJ]

In case you guys were wondering, Kiel had a damn good RS sophomore year. 3,254 yds. 31 td 13 int for the 9-4 bearcats. sucks he transferred. Kid has a good chance of being a future first round pick.

 

[GBdomer]

Gunner Kiel was alwayds going to be good, BK just didn't feel like putting a diaper on the kid which is what he needs.

 

[Luckylucci]

He did play well last year and will probably have an even better year this year but his competition is terrible in comparison to what ND plays. I mean Munchie was productive prior to Kiel getting there against the teams they play.

 

[GBdomer]

He did play well last year and will probably have an even better year this year but his competition is terrible in comparison to what ND plays. I mean Munchie was productive prior to Kiel getting there against the teams they play.

I mean skill wise it's not even close, or potential

 

[IrishLion]

He did play well last year and will probably have an even better year this year but his competition is terrible in comparison to what ND plays. I mean Munchie was productive prior to Kiel getting there against the teams they play.

Eh, after having watched him play at UC, I'm convinced that he would be very good regardless of who he played for/against. The way he operates, the competition almost doesn't matter based on how he slings it around.

Having said that, he is throwing to an extremely good WR group, and had a pretty solid OL in front of him, which certainly helps. But, he would have the same things at ND... I might go so far as to say that he would have been an upgrade over Golson last year.

 

[Irish#1]

He did play well last year and will probably have an even better year this year but his competition is terrible in comparison to what ND plays. I mean Munchie was productive prior to Kiel getting there against the teams they play.

Cincy may be Div 1, but they are a low mid-level program. With the exception of playing OSU, they will always schedule less than stellar competition.

 

[IrishLion]

Cincy may be Div 1, but they are a low mid-level program. With the exception of playing OSU, they will always schedule less than stellar competition.

Low mid-level is pushing it if you're basing it on non-conference scheduling.

Since 2010, they have played/will play:

Fresno State
NC State (x2)
Oklahoma
Tennessee
Purdue
Illinois
pOSU
Miami FL (x2)
BYU

They have their annual cream-puff game, along with a yearly matchup against Miami (OH), but they usually try to schedule decent opponents with their last two open slots.

 

[Luckylucci]

Eh, after having watched him play at UC, I'm convinced that he would be very good regardless of who he played for/against. The way he operates, the competition almost doesn't matter based on how he slings it around.

Having said that, he is throwing to an extremely good WR group, and had a pretty solid OL in front of him, which certainly helps. But, he would have the same things at ND... I might go so far as to say that he would have been an upgrade over Golson last year.

Not sure if I can grab the post or not but Coach D at Rivals made some good points on this. Apparently against the legit teams they played last year Kiel was actually fairly average and turned the ball over at a much higher rate. Therefore making the argument a little easier that his schedule played a role in how well he did.

 

[Irish#1]

Low mid-level is pushing it if you're basing it on non-conference scheduling.

Since 2010, they have played/will play:

Fresno State
NC State (x2)
Oklahoma
Tennessee
Purdue
Illinois
pOSU
Miami FL (x2)
BYU

They have their annual cream-puff game, along with a yearly matchup against Miami (OH), but they usually try to schedule decent opponents with their last two open slots.

Look at their schedule this year. They play the Cane and BYU. The rest of the schedule are typically low mid level programs IMO.

 

[IrishLion]

Not sure if I can grab the post or not but Coach D at Rivals made some good points on this. Apparently against the legit teams they played last year Kiel was actually fairly average and turned the ball over at a much higher rate. Therefore making the argument a little easier that his schedule played a role in how well he did.

It certainly doesn't hurt playing in the American, but if you watch the games, his performances really don't change in terms of control and effectiveness from game-to-game. He makes some "wow" throws and he makes some dumb throws. The better teams made him pay for the dumb throws, but his floor and ceiling were the same regardless of the opponent, IMO.

Look at their schedule this year. They play the Cane and BYU. The rest of the schedule are typically low mid level programs IMO.

Well they're locked in to the Miami (OH) game yearly, and they've been trying to replace their yearly cupcake, with no luck. I like that they still schedule two power-5 teams per year, even as they try to replace the cupcake with a third, rather than embracing the weak schedule and hoping for smoke-and-mirrors perfect seasons.

 

[Irish#1]

It certainly doesn't hurt playing in the American, but if you watch the games, his performances really don't change in terms of control and effectiveness from game-to-game. He makes some "wow" throws and he makes some dumb throws. The better teams made him pay for the dumb throws, but his floor and ceiling were the same regardless of the opponent, IMO.



Well they're locked in to the Miami (OH) game yearly, and they've been trying to replace their yearly cupcake, with no luck. I like that they still schedule two power-5 teams per year, even as they try to replace the cupcake with a third, rather than embracing the weak schedule and hoping for smoke-and-mirrors perfect seasons.

I don't have an issue with who they play. I was just adding to the statement about the competition Kiel has faced. JMO, but to be an upper mid-level program or higher you have to be in a major conference and play a fairly tough schedule every year.

 

[woolybug25]

Not sure if I can grab the post or not but Coach D at Rivals made some good points on this. Apparently against the legit teams they played last year Kiel was actually fairly average and turned the ball over at a much higher rate. Therefore making the argument a little easier that his schedule played a role in how well he did.

I didn't read the Coach D article, but how was Kiel "average" against good teams? He balled out against OSU (completed 21 of 32 passes for 352 yards and four TD's) and recorded no lower than a 113 QB rating in any game of the season.

If you split his 12 starts into the best six teams and worst six teams, I think Coach D's argument falls short.

Best Opponents (OSU, Miami, SMU, Memphis, ECU & VT): Avg QB Rating 151

Worst Opponents (Toledo, Miami (OH), South Florida, Uconn, Temple & Houston): Avg QB Rating 152.5

When you consider that one of the worst opponents was Toledo, who Kiel ripped apart for 418 yards, 6 TD's and a staggering QB rating of 216. Then the fact that the QB ratings between the two tiers is so close shows that Kiel was also consistent.

 

[IrishLion]

I don't have an issue with who they play. I was just adding to the statement about the competition Kiel has faced. JMO, but to be an upper mid-level program or higher you have to be in a major conference and play a fairly tough schedule every year.

That's fair. Perhaps I'm just too biased... and still salty that UC can't find a major conference.

It's perplexing to me that the Greater Cincinnati TV market isn't enticing enough to the big conferences. They worry that every school's slice of the pie will get smaller, but I think Cincy would be a gold-mine if fans had the opportunity to see Texas and Oklahoma every other season.

 

[Luckylucci]

I didn't read the Coach D article, but how was Kiel "average" against good teams? He balled out against OSU (completed 21 of 32 passes for 352 yards and four TD's) and recorded no lower than a 113 QB rating in any game of the season.

If you split his 12 starts into the best six teams and worst six teams, I think Coach D's argument falls short.

Best Opponents (OSU, Miami, SMU, Memphis, ECU & VT): Avg QB Rating 151

Worst Opponents (Toledo, Miami (OH), South Florida, Uconn, Temple & Houston): Avg QB Rating 152.5

When you consider that one of the worst opponents was Toledo, who Kiel ripped apart for 418 yards, 6 TD's and a staggering QB rating of 216. Then the fact that the QB ratings between the two tiers is so close shows that Kiel was also consistent.

His argument was more centered around TO's as Golson also put up really good numbers in some of the games he had the most TO's. Also, I think that breakdown of opponents is a little misleading as just because they are his best opponents doesn't mean that they are good opponents in fact SMU was 1-11, Miami had a losing record, etc. I believe he broke it down into Power 5 games and he threw 5 INT's and 8 TD's against OSU, VT, and Miami. He also included fumbles as well but I'm not going to spend the time to find those. ECU for example huge game throwing the ball but also had 3 INT's so can he sling it, for sure. But he also turned the ball over a fair amount against good competition. Lastly, look at their losses, he had 9 Td's and 6 INT's in the 4 games they lost (OSU, Memphis, Miami, VT).

Also, let me add that using QB rating as a gauge of success I've read can be very misleading for example Golson versus ASU had a QB rating of 141.6.

 

[dublinirish]

That's fair. Perhaps I'm just too biased... and still salty that UC can't find a major conference.

It's perplexing to me that the Greater Cincinnati TV market isn't enticing enough to the big conferences. They worry that every school's slice of the pie will get smaller, but I think Cincy would be a gold-mine if fans had the opportunity to see Texas and Oklahoma every other season.

everyone is too busy eating spaghetti with chilli on it...

I think UC just lacks the tradition of other programs in the midwest, there's not much they can do about that other than win consistently against bigger programs. I guess they can keep working on it. I'd argue they are better off going independent than playing Houston and ECU every year then maybe they could schedule teams with a bigger draw nationally.

 

[MNIrishman]

everyone is too busy eating spaghetti with chilli on it...

I think UC just lacks the tradition of other programs in the midwest, there's not much they can do about that other than win consistently against bigger programs. I guess they can keep working on it. I'd argue they are better off going independent than playing Houston and ECU every year then maybe they could schedule teams with a bigger draw nationally.

No one with a big draw will play them in Cinci though, unfortunately. Stadium is way too small.

 

[dublinirish]

No one with a big draw will play them in Cinci though, unfortunately. Stadium is way too small.

they could always use Paul Brown stadium for the truly big games I guess. If they went Indy and got a series going against BYU and some lower Power 5 teams and then 2/3 majors then surely that would raise their profile enough to get the ACC interested?

 

[IrishLion]

No one with a big draw will play them in Cinci though, unfortunately. Stadium is way too small.

they could always use Paul Brown stadium for the truly big games I guess. If they went Indy and got a series going against BYU and some lower Power 5 teams and then 2/3 majors then surely that would raise their profile enough to get the ACC interested?

They played at Paul Brown all of last season, as they were working on renovations to Nippert. They added a decent amount of seating to Nippert by adding luxury boxes, but I don't know if it will be enough for a major conference to reconsider things.

The catch-22 about playing big games at Paul Brown stadium is that there is no attraction aside from additional seating. It's not flashy, it's not some cool or new experience, and the community generally dislikes it. I haven't seen official numbers, but from physically being inside PBS for all but one of UC's games, I would guess that attendance suffered greatly for being away from Nippert.

I think the Miami game this year will go a long way to showing whether or not Nippert is a viable long-term home if UC has any hope at joining a power-5 conference.

 

[WestCoast]

His argument was more centered around TO's as Golson also put up really good numbers in some of the games he had the most TO's. Also, I think that breakdown of opponents is a little misleading as just because they are his best opponents doesn't mean that they are good opponents in fact SMU was 1-11, Miami had a losing record, etc. I believe he broke it down into Power 5 games and he threw 5 INT's and 8 TD's against OSU, VT, and Miami. He also included fumbles as well but I'm not going to spend the time to find those. ECU for example huge game throwing the ball but also had 3 INT's so can he sling it, for sure. But he also turned the ball over a fair amount against good competition. Lastly, look at their losses, he had 9 Td's and 6 INT's in the 4 games they lost (OSU, Memphis, Miami, VT).

Also, let me add that using QB rating as a gauge of success I've read can be very misleading for example Golson versus ASU had a QB rating of 141.6.

I'm not sure the point being made in this string about Kiel's numbers, but one point needs to be made in response to a point you're making, specifically, noting that someone performed a certain way against "lesser opponents."

Everyone should keep in mind that all things are not equal when comparing quarterbacks across college football. One QB that put up big numbers may have played against lesser opponents than another QB that put up similar numbers against tougher opponents. But one QB may have done so surrounded with a cast of the best players, whereas the other may have been surrounded by a less talented cast of teammates.

Cincinnati loads up with two and three star players. Their rivals class rankings for 2012-2014 are #50, #71 and #69. During those three classes they signed one 4-star player. The only 5-star they have they obtained via transfer after his prior school mismanaged its QB situation.

So yes, Cincinnati may have played some not very good teams. But Cincinnati doesn't exactly field a team of the most talented players. Kiel didn't/doesn't have the luxury of playing behind top-100 offensive lineman, throwing to top-100 receivers or tight ends, or handing the ball off to top-100 RBs.

 

[Luckylucci]

I'm not sure the point being made in this string about Kiel's numbers, but one point needs to be made in response to a point you're making, specifically, noting that someone performed a certain way against "lesser opponents."

Everyone should keep in mind that all things are not equal when comparing quarterbacks across college football. One QB that put up big numbers may have played against lesser opponents than another QB that put up similar numbers against tougher opponents. But one QB may have done so surrounded with a cast of the best players, whereas the other may have been surrounded by a less talented cast of teammates.

Cincinnati loads up with two and three star players. Their rivals class rankings for 2012-2014 are #50, #71 and #69. During those three classes they signed one 4-star player. The only 5-star they have they obtained via transfer after his prior school mismanaged its QB situation.

So yes, Cincinnati may have played some not very good teams. But Cincinnati doesn't exactly field a team of the most talented players. Kiel didn't/doesn't have the luxury of playing behind top-100 offensive lineman, throwing to top-100 receivers or tight ends, or handing the ball off to top-100 RBs.

This argument has very little merit for me as there are too many examples of teams that significantly outperform their recruiting rankings and systems that can produce regardless of recruiting top notch players. Wiscy, TCU, GT, Baylor, etc. So, does that make Bryce Petty substantially than Jameis as he was doing it with sub 30 classes while Jameis was with top 10, No.

Compare what he did against the legit teams on his schedule. Don't get me wrong he had a good year but his year is being greatly exaggerated due to opponents they played. No doubt about it. If you look at all metrics for Kiel and Golson (ex fumbles) they have scarily similar numbers yet very different results and different feelings from the fanbases.

 

[BobbyMac]

That's fair. Perhaps I'm just too biased... and still salty that UC can't find a major conference.

It's perplexing to me that the Greater Cincinnati TV market isn't enticing enough to the big conferences. They worry that every school's slice of the pie will get smaller, but I think Cincy would be a gold-mine if fans had the opportunity to see Texas and Oklahoma every other season.

I find it hard to believe the Big12 hasn't added (at least) them and UCF. It's about TV's and that adds a lot of them. In the end, I'll bet that UC ends up in the SEC when Texas kills the Big12 and forces the 4 superconference model. UC doesn't fit into the B1G or ACC academically but then again, Louisville isn't your typical ACC school so the academic criteria will likely be less of a factor in the future. If it's not, the B1G will be poaching 6 more AAU member schools from the ACC (UVa, UNC, Duke, GT, VT, Pitt) the SEC (Vandy, Florida, Mizzou) and or the Big12 (Texas, Kansas and Iowa St)

UC may make the Big12 before Texas' eventual move, adding them, UCF, Memphis or other big market teams outside the current footprint like SDSU, SJSU, UNLV, New Mexico, Temple or even a Tulane.

.

 

[WestCoast]

This argument has very little merit for me as there are too many examples of teams that significantly outperform their recruiting rankings and systems that can produce regardless of recruiting top notch players. Wiscy, TCU, GT, Baylor, etc. So, does that make Bryce Petty substantially than Jameis as he was doing it with sub 30 classes while Jameis was with top 10, No.

Compare what he did against the legit teams on his schedule. Don't get me wrong he had a good year but his year is being greatly exaggerated due to opponents they played. No doubt about it. If you look at all metrics for Kiel and Golson (ex fumbles) they have scarily similar numbers yet very different results and different feelings from the fanbases.

Forgive me if I didn't explain my point well. I wasn't making an argument about any of the players involved in the comparisons. I simply said it is not easy in CFB to directly compare two players stats because of significant differences in teams, schedules, etc.

Can you compare two players that both play in Power 5 conferences that play on teams that are close in terms of talent? Yes. When comparing those two players can you take into account the strength of their opponents? Yes. Is it appropriate to compare the level of talent around the players? Maybe. When one team averages top 30 classes and the other top 10 classes, that factor may not be as significant since the two teams are somewhat close.

That becomes more of a factor if the teams are further apart. If you try to compare a player on a mid-major team and a Power 5 team, strength of opponent may be a bigger factor in the comparison. But so will the talent level around the players. In my opinion, comparing a mid-major player on a team that averages recruiting classes in the 60s with a player on a Power 5 team that averages recruiting classes in the top 15, surrounding talent is probably more of a factor than the prior situation.

 

[Old Man Mike]

Kiel is REALLY good to my eye-test, and he's going to get better and be drafted by the NFL. Wooly is correct on this, and it seems always has been about Kiel. The fact that he came to school as a bit of a naive baby doesn't dent my opinion of what he's becoming. Kiel looks today to be a real quarterback, a real field general, and is becoming a real gunslinger. In my opinion almost any D1 program would be delighted to have him, including Les Miles.

 

[Irish#1]

That's fair. Perhaps I'm just too biased... and still salty that UC can't find a major conference.

It's perplexing to me that the Greater Cincinnati TV market isn't enticing enough to the big conferences. They worry that every school's slice of the pie will get smaller, but I think Cincy would be a gold-mine if fans had the opportunity to see Texas and Oklahoma every other season.

Maybe it has to do with the level of commitment they have towards football? I realize they're renovating Nippert, but maybe that's the max they're willing to go? We don't know all the details, but maybe they aren't willing to commit as much money to the program as the major conferences want?

 

[IrishLion]

Maybe it has to do with the level of commitment they have towards football? I realize they're renovating Nippert, but maybe that's the max they're willing to go? We don't know all the details, but maybe they aren't willing to commit as much money to the program as the major conferences want?

I don't know the details either. That very well could be the case. But I don't think the school would have put forth the money for the renovations if some conference hadn't given the ol' nudge-nudge wink-wink and said "that might look good in our league some day."

I'll have to really start pestering some guys for info at tailgates this year I guess. I'm just getting my feet wet with the UC gameday crowd haha.

 

[BobbyMac]

The problem is, Nippert is land locked. I've never seen a major football stadium surrounded by other structures like it is and they are newer structures. They'd have to get real creative (read expensive) to get that place to even 60,000. BTW, where the he77 does everyone park? Mount Adams?

 

[IrishLion]

The problem is, Nippert is land locked. I've never seen a major football stadium surrounded by other structures like it is and they are newer structures. They'd have to get real creative (read expensive) to get that place to even 60,000. BTW, where the he77 does everyone park? Mount Adams?

Being locked in by the existing building is definitely the issue. The first way they've increased seating was to eliminate the old press/luxury box and make a bigger, newer one. Not a huge jump in seating, and I can't find the finalized numbers, but a decent start that was needed.

Their best bet, if they ever wish to add more seating, is to extend the upper-deck (over Victory Plaza) and take it all the way to the vocal arts center, and then perhaps try and squeeze a section in the corner between the rec and the Athletic Center (that would be complicated, but there would be some work-arounds).

As for parking, just outside of the diagrammed map in your post, there is a line of parking garages underneath existing buildings that are mostly available for standard gameday pay-to-park. There are also two very large parking structures two "blocks" from the stadium/basketball arena. It's crazy trying to leave after a game, but not hard to get a spot as long as you aren't getting their right before kickoff.

 

[Irish#1]

The problem is, Nippert is land locked. I've never seen a major football stadium surrounded by other structures like it is and they are newer structures. They'd have to get real creative (read expensive) to get that place to even 60,000. BTW, where the he77 does everyone park? Mount Adams?

While not quite apples to apples, I think Neyland stadium doesn't offer much parking close to the stadium.

 

[kmoose]

BTW, where the he77 does everyone park? Mount Adams?

How hard is it to find a place to park the 20 cars from people attending a UC game?

 

[stlnd01]

I find it hard to believe the Big12 hasn't added (at least) them and UCF. It's about TV's and that adds a lot of them. In the end, I'll bet that UC ends up in the SEC when Texas kills the Big12 and forces the 4 superconference model. UC doesn't fit into the B1G or ACC academically but then again, Louisville isn't your typical ACC school so the academic criteria will likely be less of a factor in the future.

.

I dunno. Cincy isn't that big a TV market (34th, according to Nielsen. Smaller than Salt Lake and Hartford). And it's smaller when you figure how many of those TVs are tuned in to the OSU game.
They're a weird tweener program. Almost too good for their conference. But neither big nor committed enough for the P5.
Either way, I suspect Gunner will be the most successful Notre Dame QB of his generation on Sundays. Which is not to say he'd have been the most successful QB at Notre Dame.