A Song of Ice and Fire (Spoilers! Only enter if you have read all books)

IrishLion

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Idk, I think that might actually have been Mance for show purposes.

I may be misremembering, but I thought the biggest reason for faking his death in the books was so he could go find Jon's "sister," which hasn't been a part of the show.
 

Emcee77

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Idk, I think that might actually have been Mance for show purposes.

I may be misremembering, but I thought the biggest reason for faking his death in the books was so he could go find Jon's "sister," which hasn't been a part of the show.

Oh, yeah, I think you may be right. The show will likely just skip that whole thing of Mance and the spearwives heading to Winterfell, right?
 

IrishLion

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Oh, yeah, I think you may be right. The show will likely just skip that whole thing of Mance and the spearwives heading to Winterfell, right?

With Littlefinger and Black Sansa already on their way to Winterfell (probably), and Brienne and Pod on their heals, I'd imagine it would be too much to throw a "surprise, Mance is alive and going to wreak havoc" on top of it.
 

returnofthemack

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Idk, I think that might actually have been Mance for show purposes.

I may be misremembering, but I thought the biggest reason for faking his death in the books was so he could go find Jon's "sister," which hasn't been a part of the show.

Ah, that's a good point.
 

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With Littlefinger and Black Sansa already on their way to Winterfell (probably), and Brienne and Pod on their heals, I'd imagine it would be too much to throw a "surprise, Mance is alive and going to wreak havoc" on top of it.

Plus Mance just hasn't been that important in the show version. More of a plot device for John rather than a character in his own right. I think a lot of casuals wouldn't even know him by name.
 

HoosierIrish

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Damn, I hadn't even thought Mance wasn't coming back. I thought it was a little weird there weren't any hints it wasn't him. I had a little smirk while watching because my friends saw him die and here I am an idiot not upset because I think I know he's alive. I really need to learn to seperate the two like others have said. I'm still ticked there's no sign of lady stoneheart! Leaving out the iron islands too? Way to many great characters not being brought to life. Why they are trying to finish the show in 7 seasons is insane when they have so much storyline. Atleast I'll still be really excited to read the new books.
 

wizards8507

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Idk, I think that might actually have been Mance for show purposes.

I may be misremembering, but I thought the biggest reason for faking his death in the books was so he could go find Jon's "sister," which hasn't been a part of the show.

With Littlefinger and Black Sansa already on their way to Winterfell (probably), and Brienne and Pod on their heals, I'd imagine it would be too much to throw a "surprise, Mance is alive and going to wreak havoc" on top of it.

Plus Mance just hasn't been that important in the show version. More of a plot device for John rather than a character in his own right. I think a lot of casuals wouldn't even know him by name.
It ruins the mystery of the Bastard Letter for both show and book purposes. A lot of people think Mance wrote that letter after capturing Ramsay (and possibly holding Winterfell). Now we know that the Mance-in-the-north plotline has nothing to do with GRRM's endgame, which is a bit disappointing.
 

IrishLion

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Now we know that the Mance-in-the-north plotline has nothing to do with GRRM's endgame, which is a bit disappointing.

I'm thinking the show runners are just trying to trim the fat, and anything important that other characters might do in the North in the books will be passed on to Littlefinger/Sansa instead.

I could see them having Baelish wheeling-and-dealing like a mad man to get everything done, without the influx of characters the book has.
 

IrishinTN

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I'm pretty sure in the show it definitely was the real Mance. Show watchers have no clue who Rattleshirt is.

But did Mance actually speak in the show? The way the Red Witch was looking at him and he looked kind of drugged, I was wondering if they might do some kind of switch with Mance showing up later and they would just do a flashback as to how Mance was still alive. Or...he is dead and that storyline is over in the show (boo!!).
 

phork

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I'm pretty sure in the show it definitely was the real Mance. Show watchers have no clue who Rattleshirt is.

Of course they do:

RattleshirtPromo.png
 

ND NYC

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almost feel like the jon snow "death" (end of book 5) will be the finale of this season on hbo
 

wizards8507

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Of course they do:

RattleshirtPromo.png
That was what, season 3? I know loads of show-only people who couldn't peg Davos, Tommen, Rickon, Roose, or Oberyn Martell beyond "that guy who got his head crushed in." No, I don't think they know who Rattleshirt is.
 

Corry

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I read somewhere I don't know where that Sansa is replacing the Jenne Poole story line. That she'll be married to Ramsey and the Pink letter will be about the Real Sansa and not the fake Arya. Jon then rallies the troops to save his real sister. I can't say I love it, but it would easier for the show watchers to follow.
 

IrishLion

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I read somewhere I don't know where that Sansa is replacing the Jenne Poole story line. That she'll be married to Ramsey and the Pink letter will be about the Real Sansa and not the fake Arya. Jon then rallies the troops to save his real sister. I can't say I love it, but it would easier for the show watchers to follow.

I kind of had this thought earlier after thinking about where the show is heading. It makes the most sense, and would leave an "in" for Mance to be brought back as a surprise. Jon Snow discovers that Baelish is marrying Sansa to the traitorous Boltons, and though he can't go himself, he can send the King of the Free Folk in his place to rescue his sister via Guerrilla Warfare.

Either way though, it seems now, through the warped show storyline, that Sansa, Baelish and everything in the North is just filler material, and not necessarily key to the end game..

That is, until King Rickon Stark returns from the hard, cold wild. But the storyline leading up to that doesn't really matter, as long as it happens.
 

wizards8507

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That is, until King Rickon Stark returns from the hard, cold wild. But the storyline leading up to that doesn't really matter, as long as it happens.
Eh. We haven't seen Rickon in so long it's hard to care about him.

My "endgame" theory is that the wall will fall (dragons) so there's no more need for the Night's Watch. That'll free up Jon Stark to hold Winterfell without forsaking his vows.
 

Corry

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Either way though, it seems now, through the warped show storyline, that Sansa, Baelish and everything in the North is just filler material, and not necessarily key to the end game..

It does add some credence to the Jon and Sansa end game theory. It provides a easy story to follow for the show watchers. Jon saves the day, prevents a marriage, and boom shakalaka.

Blind Spot | * A Time for Wolves - The Case for Jon and...
 

wizards8507

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It does add some credence to the Jon and Sansa end game theory. It provides a easy story to follow for the show watchers. Jon saves the day, prevents a marriage, and boom shakalaka.

Blind Spot | * A Time for Wolves - The Case for Jon and...
That's the first I've heard of that theory. It feels out of balance to me. Jon already represents the union of both Ice and Fire, while Sansa would really just be Ice. That's not symmetrical enough to be the endgame in a saga called A Song of Ice and Fire. It's very possible that Jon himself is THE manifestation of Ice and Fire (not just one incarnation thereof) and that the song is all about him.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 4 using Tapatalk.
 

IrishLion

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That's the first I've heard of that theory. It feels out of balance to me. Jon already represents the union of both Ice and Fire, while Sansa would really just be Ice. That's not symmetrical enough to be the endgame in a saga called A Song of Ice and Fire. It's very possible that Jon himself is THE manifestation of Ice and Fire (not just one incarnation thereof) and that the song is all about him.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 4 using Tapatalk.

Now if only he wasn't dead.

[Melisandre attempts the kiss of fire for the first time]
[Jon Snow lives, runs shit]
[Enter Arya and Nymeria, chaos ensues]
 

IrishLion

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It appears that Brienne, in an effort to keep her oath to protect Sansa Stark, is on a crash course with Stannis. Perhaps this is a hint that she will get a chance to avenge Renly in the books... or else it's a storyline that has been changed because it doesn't affect the ultimate end game. I'm starting to find that hard to believe, though, considering they've already brought Sansa into the thick of the Northern issues.

A scene that interested me, even though it was a very quick shot, was when it showed the serving women in Winterfell as Sansa was entering the area. Perhaps this is foreshadowing that the serving women will wreak havoc and help Sansa, just as they did Jeyne and Theon in the books. The only question is if Mance really does make a surprise return to lead them. I guess it wasn't so far-fetched as I initially thought. I thought it would be too much story crammed into one place, but it seems to be fitting well so far. We just need to see a couple of episodes of things getting progressively worse for Sansa, then we need to see Reek become Theon again, and then we need to see the valiant savior and his loyal troop save the day.

I also wonder if Tommen and Margery already consummating the marriage was a simple change to make things more clear for the show watchers on the "Cersei vs Margery" battle, or if it's a sign that perhaps an heir to Tommen's throne may come into play in the books at some point.
 

Emcee77

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Show producers explaining the change in Sansa's storyline:
'Game of Thrones' showrunners explain why they changed Sansa's storyline | EW.com

At least as far as they are letting on, it was motivated mostly by the desire to streamline the story and make good use of a strong actor and a character who has the audience's sympathy, rather than consign her to the Vale in a storyline that goes nowhere for a long stretch and requires the introduction of new characters the audience doesn't know.
 

IrishLion

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I'm beginning to think that Bronn is with Jaime simply to die in a fight with Areo Hotah and co. when they try to move Myrcella, taking the place of Oakheart's death in the books.

Melisandre can try to corrupt me any time she wants.

That scene with Stannis and Shireen got me right in the feels. Excellent, excellent scene there. When Shireen started crying and then Stannis hugged her back after she hugged him, the room nearly got dusty.

And it was pretty badass when Melisandre gave the old "eff you" to Stannis's wife about Shireen, too. "Stannis is the true king. And his blood flows through her veins."
 

IrishinTN

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I like the episode overall, but they are making the unsullied look like a bunch of weak, whoring drunks. I mean, these guys can't even "enjoy" whores. Maybe some of them were Second Sons. IDK. But for Greyworm and his unit of 5 or 6 unsullied to fight those 20 guys who only had daggers and short swords. That should have been easy slaughter for trained, badass unsullied. I didn't like that part.
 

IrishLion

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I guess it was actually a pretty "big" reveal that Barristan died. Not that he was going to affect the endgame in a big way individually, but he's still playing field general for Dany's forces as of tWoW.
 

Whiskeyjack

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Melisandre can try to corrupt me any time she wants.

It was interesting how she kept describing herself as "full of life" while trying to seduce Jon, since she's likely far older than she appears. Her attractive visage is just a glamour.

And it was pretty badass when Melisandre gave the old "eff you" to Stannis's wife about Shireen, too. "Stannis is the true king. And his blood flows through her veins."

King's blood is necessary to wake a dragon (murdered Jon) from stone (greyscale-afflicted Shireen).

I like the episode overall, but they are making the unsullied look like a bunch of weak, whoring drunks. I mean, these guys can't even "enjoy" whores. Maybe some of them were Second Sons. IDK. But for Greyworm and his unit of 5 or 6 unsullied to fight those 20 guys who only had daggers and short swords. That should have been easy slaughter for trained, badass unsullied. I didn't like that part.

Agreed. Unsullied are supposed to be elite hoplites (Spartans), the greatest foot soldiers in the world. Benioff and Weis have pretty much ruined them in the series.

I guess it was actually a pretty "big" reveal that Barristan died. Not that he was going to affect the endgame in a big way individually, but he's still playing field general for Dany's forces as of tWoW.

We don't know that Selmy and Grey Worm died. We saw them collapse after winning a fight. I'd bet they are found and cared for in the next episode.

As an aside, I hate the way they've chosen to portray the Faith Militant. Black robed cultists with pentagrams cut into their foreheads are a caricature (usually reserved for Satanists). Given Martin's worldview, I don't expect him to portray the Faith Militant as a unqualified force for good in Westeros (and really, who is?), but in the books they're at least genuinely pious people who are looking out for the small folk. Not murderous puritans out to destroy taverns, whore houses and teh gayz. Bullsh!t editorializing by Benioff and Weis.
 
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IrishLion

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We don't know that Selmy and Grey Worm died. We saw them collapse after winning a fight. I'd bet they are found and cared for in the next episode.

We know Selmy dies, because we saw his bodied laid out in the preview for next week's episode. Grey Worm will surely survive, probably under the care of Missandei because eunuch love story [?].

As an aside, I hate the way they've chosen to portray the Faith Militant. Black robed cultists with pentagrams cut into their foreheads are a caricature (usually reserved for Satanists). Given Martin's worldview, I don't expect him to portray the Faith Militant as a unqualified force for good in Westeros (and really, who is?), but in the books they're at least genuinely pious people who are looking out for the small folk. Not murderous puritans out to destroy taverns, whore houses and teh gayz. Bullsh!t editorializing by Benioff and Weis.

I was trying to explain that to my fiance last night. Caricature is the perfect word for it. It's awful. The only excuse is that the show moves too fast to take an in-depth look at the group's actual make-up, so they have to get their point across about the potential for militarization of the faith. The books were able to say it over-and-over again, but they had to show that potential right away for the show's purposes.

(I also don't like that "High Sparrow = Howland Reed" seems to be busted)

I DO like how they are setting Cersei up though. Show watchers keep getting bits and pieces of the High Sparrow that seem to show that he may be corrupt... but then BLAM. Cersei goin' to jail.
 

Whiskeyjack

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We know Selmy dies, because we saw his bodied laid out in the preview for next week's episode. Grey Worm will surely survive, probably under the care of Missandei because eunuch love story [?].

Where did you see a preview of next week's episode? I've been getting "Inside the Episode" segments after the credits roll wherein Benioff and Weis explicate on various aspects of the episode that's just ended. I do miss getting previews.
 

IrishLion

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Where did you see a preview of next week's episode? I've been getting "Inside the Episode" segments after the credits roll wherein Benioff and Weis explicate on various aspects of the episode that's just ended. I do miss getting previews.

Welp, sorry I (kind of) ruined it.

I see them on the standard HBO showing. I record it on DVR, and then fast-forward through the credits for next week's preview.

Do you watch live, or via HBOgo?
 

Whiskeyjack

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Do you watch live, or via HBOgo?

HBOGo. Perhaps that's why I don't get previews anymore.

If that is how Benioff and Weis decided to kill the greatest knight in Westeros, my hatred for last night's episode increases.
 
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