[NFL] vBook: Colts vs Patriots (Deflategate)

[Irish Insanity]

And the BB PC and Kraft comments came across to me as more of a 'put up or shut up' move. Either come out with proof or let it go.

 

[wizards8507]

Very easy. It's takes very little time to drop a few psi. Take an inflation needle by itself. Pop it quickly in and it of the each ball. Give it a 2 count. Done deal. Hell I could do it in a half the time. Especially if it's someone who is accustomed to handling the balls.

I don't think it would be that hard although I don't think any old person could do it that fast. But I think someone who has deflated or inflated balls a lot could do it. Take one ball out, stick the needle in and deflate. I'm guessing the deflation itself only takes a second. Put the ball down on the ground. Pick up next ball. Repeat 11 times. Then put all the balls back in the bag. Maybe he forgot one or felt like he was taking too long.

We also don't know if this is the only opportunity he had.

Be real guys. In a bathroom? With a floor that is unlikely to be perfectly flat? With a bag of 12 footballs. Go fill a bag with 12 footballs and dump them out in a public restroom some place, while also hauling around a second bag also full of 12 footballs. It'll take you 90 seconds just to gather them up after they finish rolling all over the place, let alone to do the actual deflating.

Also, you seem to doubt Belichick's story that this happened without his knowledge because he's this master schemer who controls every little detail. If they were deflating balls, they wouldn't be doing it with a needle and a "two count." They'd be deflating and measuring with a gauge to some pre-defined deflated level (11.0 or whatever it was).

Yeah, it's POSSIBLE for cheating to have occurred with the facts that have been established, but it's looking less and less likely as each new piece of information comes out.

 

[Irish Insanity]

So a video surfaces of a Pats guy taking the balls into the bathroom on the way to the field and you day it looks less likely cheating occurred. Lol. Ok.

 

[irishfan]

I wish I could see everyone's opinion if the situations were reversed and the Pats complained about the Colts deflating balls. The bigger story would be about the Pats whining.

 

[wizards8507]

I feel like Patriots fans have adopted their coach's double-down mentality.

If the original story was "11 of 12 NE balls deflated and video shows NE employee entering bathroom on the way to the field from referee locker room" I seriously doubt any of you would be defending the team the way you are. You are all just [understandably] reluctant to back down now.

Nope. The ball boy going into the bathroom for 90 SECONDS is evidence that supports the claim to innocence, not something that damns the Patriots further. (Not to mention the fact that this wasn't some "discovery" that the NFL uncovered... the Patriots came forward with the video.)

Occam's razor tells us that when a guy walks in a bathroom for 90 seconds, he's probably taking a piss, not deflating footballs at the direction of his head coach and quarterback to gain a minuscule (or nonexistent) advantage over an inferior football team.

 

[Rhode Irish]

I feel like Patriots fans have adopted their coach's double-down mentality.

If the original story was "11 of 12 NE balls deflated and video shows NE employee entering bathroom on the way to the field from referee locker room" I seriously doubt any of you would be defending the team the way you are. You are all just [understandably] reluctant to back down now.

I feel the opposite. I think if it came out last Tuesday that the only time the Patriots could have messed with the balls was during a 90 second stop at the lav, this whole story would never have gained any momentum in the first place.

 

[gkIrish]

Nope. The ball boy going into the bathroom for 90 SECONDS is evidence that supports the claim to innocence, not something that damns the Patriots further. (Not to mention the fact that this wasn't some "discovery" that the NFL uncovered... the Patriots came forward with the video.)

Occam's razor tells us that when a guy walks in a bathroom for 90 seconds, he's probably taking a piss, not deflating footballs at the direction of his head coach and quarterback to gain a minuscule (or nonexistent) advantage over an inferior football team.

Assuming he didn't do anything to the balls in the bathroom, it's a neutral development at worst. I don't see how it provides any evidence of innocence. Those of us who think they cheated thought so even without this development. Again, no one has claimed this is the ONLY evidence they have.

 

[woolybug25]

Be real guys. In a bathroom? With a floor that is unlikely to be perfectly flat? With a bag of 12 footballs. Go fill a bag with 12 footballs and dump them out in a public restroom some place, while also hauling around a second bag also full of 12 footballs. It'll take you 90 seconds just to gather them up after they finish rolling all over the place, let alone to do the actual deflating.

I guarantee you that I could do it. Guar-on'-tee.

Also, you seem to doubt Belichick's story that this happened without his knowledge because he's this master schemer who controls every little detail. If they were deflating balls, they wouldn't be doing it with a needle and a "two count." They'd be deflating and measuring with a gauge to some pre-defined deflated level (11.0 or whatever it was).

I don't think anyone else think it happened without his knowledge either. lol

A simple needle with air gauge attached would make deflating to a level pretty simple.

Yeah, it's POSSIBLE for cheating to have occurred with the facts that have been established, but it's looking less and less likely as each new piece of information comes out.

How does showing the balls getting taken into a bathroom by the guy accused of deflating them, make it less likely? For real?

 

[Irish Insanity]

Some of these posts seem like they would be in the 'legalize Marijuana' or 'what are you drinking' threads.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

The New York Times' Magazines' Mark Liebovich just published a fascinating article titled "Tom Brady Cannot Stop". It's long, but worth the read if you have time.

He doesn't live on the same planet I do.

 

[Monk]

Just to through this out there. Do we know if the guy with the ball bags was the only person in the bathroom? It would be a lot easier to deflate the footballs with another set of hands.

Also if the guy was going to take a piss, you think he would have done it before he picked up the bags or after he dropped them at the field?

 

[wizards8507]

Also if the guy was going to take a piss, you think he would have done it before he picked up the bags or after he dropped them at the field?

I don't know what you do for a living, but you've never run into the men's room with your laptop or a notebook as you go from one meeting to another? You stick it on the counter, do your business, wash your hands, and get on with it.

 

[Ndaccountant]

I don't know what you do for a living, but you've never run into the men's room with your laptop or a notebook as you go from one meeting to another? You stick it on the counter, do your business, wash your hands, and get on with it.

I remain shocked at how many adults still fail at this act of simple hygiene.

 

[wizards8507]

I remain shocked at how many adults still fail at this act of simple hygiene.

At least a courtesy rinse when there's someone else IN the bathroom with you.

 

[Irish#1]

I wish I could see everyone's opinion if the situations were reversed and the Pats complained about the Colts deflating balls. The bigger story would be about the Pats whining.

Spoken like a true Pats fan.

I have no idea what the verdict will be, but I think a lot of people keep missing the point. If this was the Colts or any other team, it may not be viewed at as that big of a deal, but it is because the Pats have a history of cheating. And while everyone agrees it didn't effect the outcome of the game, it does effect the integrity of the game and that's what is at the heart of the matter.

Someone posted a story about how the number of fumbles by the Pats has been ridiculously low over the last ?? years. A slightly deflated ball would be easier to hang onto which could contribute to those outlandish numbers, which in turn could allow the Pats to win the close games and maintain their record. This effects the integrity more than one game if true.

I never expected a resolution from Goodel prior to the SB. It doesn't detract from it, but only brings it more press and interest. The causal fan or those inclined not to watch the game might be inclined to watch now to see if the "Evil Cheating Patriots" can win without cheating.

 

[Irish#1]

Just to through this out there. Do we know if the guy with the ball bags was the only person in the bathroom? It would be a lot easier to deflate the footballs with another set of hands.

Also if the guy was going to take a piss, you think he would have done it before he picked up the bags or after he dropped them at the field?

Unless there was a second bag of deflated Patriots balls waiting in the bathroom to be picked up! OMG, I think I just cracked this baby wide open!

 

[Monk]

I don't know what you do for a living, but you've never run into the men's room with your laptop or a notebook as you go from one meeting to another? You stick it on the counter, do your business, wash your hands, and get on with it.

I have, but when I have a close destination I try to leave my objects in that room while I go to the bathroom. Because this is hard for you to understand I will give you an example: I have a meeting to go to so I place my belongings on the table in the conference room and go to the bathroom without anything in my hands. Obviously this does not work for every situation so lets digress to the situation at hand. If I was in the same situation as the person who picked up the footballs I would have gone to the bathroom before I picked them up. If I realized I had to go after I picked up the footballs I would have delivered them to the field then gone to the bathroom. I can't believe I actually have to explain this.

Just for your information I am a civil engineer for a construction company.

 

[gkIrish]

Unless there was a second bag of deflated Patriots balls waiting in the bathroom to be picked up! OMG, I think I just cracked this baby wide open!

That theory doesn't work because the balls are marked by a referee after they are weighed. Of course it's possible the deflated balls were marked the same way. I don't know what the marking is. If it's as simple as using a marker to place a dot on the ball then they definitely could have had another bag waiting and used the 90 seconds to place the mark on the balls.

 

[Irish#1]

The New York Times' Magazines' Mark Liebovich just published a fascinating article titled "Tom Brady Cannot Stop". It's long, but worth the read if you have time.

He doesn't live on the same planet I do.

Sorry Whiskey, but that was the longest article I've ever read that said nothing. A few interesting things, but not much. JMO

 

[Ndaccountant]

I am going with the idea that Roger McDowell was the second ball handler while hiding in bushes on the grassy knoll.

 

[irishfan]

Just to through this out there. Do we know if the guy with the ball bags was the only person in the bathroom? It would be a lot easier to deflate the footballs with another set of hands.

Also if the guy was going to take a piss, you think he would have done it before he picked up the bags or after he dropped them at the field?

It was a 1-person bathroom. The Pats gave them the surveillance tapes, they probably would have noticed if someone else went in.

Bad timing to go to the bathroom by this guy for sure. But who knows what his schedule was before this, maybe he didn't have a chance to go and this was his last chance till halftime.

Like others have posted, anyone who wants the Pats to be guilty will say he obviously deflated 11 footballs in 90 seconds. Anyone who is a Pats-defender will say its impossible.

Belichick's science he referenced has been backed up by MIT scientists, by a scientist referenced by Peter King in SI, and that third party lab company HeadSmart Labs. The fact that the Colts balls weren't deflated below the alloted level, but could also be explained by the fact that they were maybe inflated to 13.5 and also weren't as exposed to the elements (less time of possession=less rain).

Literally for every reason someone posts that they cheated, there's an equal counter argument.

 

[phork]

So the real question is were those balls disinfected before Brady handled them? I think I see cold or flu virus bringing Brady down!

 

[woolybug25]

It was a 1-person bathroom. The Pats gave them the surveillance tapes, they probably would have noticed if someone else went in.

Bad timing to go to the bathroom by this guy for sure. But who knows what his schedule was before this, maybe he didn't have a chance to go and this was his last chance till halftime.

Like others have posted, anyone who wants the Pats to be guilty will say he obviously deflated 11 footballs in 90 seconds. Anyone who is a Pats-defender will say its impossible.

Belichick's science he referenced has been backed up by MIT scientists, by a scientist referenced by Peter King in SI, and that third party lab company HeadSmart Labs. The fact that the Colts balls weren't deflated below the alloted level, but could also be explained by the fact that they were maybe inflated to 13.5 and also weren't as exposed to the elements (less time of possession=less rain).

Literally for every reason someone posts that they cheated, there's an equal counter argument.

Let me ask... how many times have you heard an allegation get justified by a bunch of random oddities that would all have to add up to be true? I mean, sure there are counter arguments to the oddities surrounding the situation. But all of the counter arguments would have to be true for it not to have taken place. Furthermore, how unlucky of the Patriots (who have been caught cheating before) to have all of these connecting oddities leading to their game balls being deflated, while having the Colt's game balls staying legal.

If one is to believe that it was all coincidental and accidental, they must also believe that all of these random events happened by sheer cosmic timing and bad luck. I find that hard to believe and this franchise certainly has not earned the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Irish YJ]

Let me ask... how many times have you heard an allegation get justified by a bunch of random oddities that would all have to add up to be true? I mean, sure there are counter arguments to the oddities surrounding the situation. But all of the counter arguments would have to be true for it not to have taken place. Furthermore, how unlucky of the Patriots (who have been caught cheating before) to have all of these connecting oddities leading to their game balls being deflated, while having the Colt's game balls staying legal.

If one is to believe that it was all coincidental and accidental, they must also believe that all of these random events happened by sheer cosmic timing and bad luck. I find that hard to believe and this franchise certainly has not earned the benefit of the doubt.

It must be

 

[gkIrish]

Let me ask... how many times have you heard an allegation get justified by a bunch of random oddities that would all have to add up to be true? I mean, sure there are counter arguments to the oddities surrounding the situation. But all of the counter arguments would have to be true for it not to have taken place. Furthermore, how unlucky of the Patriots (who have been caught cheating before) to have all of these connecting oddities leading to their game balls being deflated, while having the Colt's game balls staying legal.

If one is to believe that it was all coincidental and accidental, they must also believe that all of these random events happened by sheer cosmic timing and bad luck. I find that hard to believe and this franchise certainly has not earned the benefit of the doubt.

I still haven't heard one scientific justification for why the Colts' balls did not deflate. Even if they deflated from 13.5 to 12.5 (1 psi) it still doesn't jive with the fact that the Patriots balls deflated by more than 1psi, and closer to 2 by most accounts I've read.

If I see a report that says both the Colts and Patriots balls deflated by 1 psi then I have nothing further to say.

 

[irishfan]

Let me ask... how many times have you heard an allegation get justified by a bunch of random oddities that would all have to add up to be true? I mean, sure there are counter arguments to the oddities surrounding the situation. But all of the counter arguments would have to be true for it not to have taken place. Furthermore, how unlucky of the Patriots (who have been caught cheating before) to have all of these connecting oddities leading to their game balls being deflated, while having the Colt's game balls staying legal.

If one is to believe that it was all coincidental and accidental, they must also believe that all of these random events happened by sheer cosmic timing and bad luck. I find that hard to believe and this franchise certainly has not earned the benefit of the doubt.

Always makes me laugh when people call the Patriots cheaters. Rod Woodson was saying this on ESPN the other day about how there's always something going on with Patriot cheating allegations, then proceeded to try and rattle off all of the Patriots cheating scandals....he listed just Spygate and this. Spygate was one of the most overblown things around. Bill Cowher literally said about a week ago that everyone in the league was doing it. They've had the "cheaters" label on them ever since.

People have literally pounced on this story because they want the Patriots to be guilty. The Vikings and Panthers were both caught heating up footballs on the sideline this season and there were no repercussions. Rodgers said he has balls pumped up over 13.5 and hopes the refs don't measure them. It's ridiculous.

 

[gkIrish]

Always makes me laugh when people call the Patriots cheaters. Rod Woodson was saying this on ESPN the other day about how there's always something going on with Patriot cheating allegations, then proceeded to try and rattle off all of the Patriots cheating scandals....he listed just Spygate and this. Spygate was one of the most overblown things around. Bill Cowher literally said about a week ago that everyone in the league was doing it. They've had the "cheaters" label on them ever since.

People have literally pounced on this story because they want the Patriots to be guilty. The Vikings and Panthers were both caught heating up footballs on the sideline this season and there were no repercussions. Rodgers said he has balls pumped up over 13.5 and hopes the refs don't measure them. It's ridiculous.

No he didn't. Reread the quotes.

The majority of the time, they take air out of the football. I think that, for me, is a disadvantage.

He never said he has them overpumped just to get away with it. You can possibly make that inference but even if you do, it's not nearly a unethical as this situation.

 

[irishfan]

No he didn't. Reread the quotes.



He never said he has them overpumped just to get away with it. You can possibly make that inference but even if you do, it's not nearly a unethical as this situation.

Jim Nantz, Phil Simms discussion adds context to deflated football talk - New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

'I like to push the limit to how much air we can put in the football, even go over what they allow you to do and see if the officials take air out of it.'

I just don't think is a heavily enforced issue. The Vikings/Panthers were caught this year heating up balls on the sideline and it was barely news. The Bears ballboy recently said refs rarely actually measure the pressure pre-game.

 

[gkIrish]

Jim Nantz, Phil Simms discussion adds context to deflated football talk - New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston



I just don't think is a heavily enforced issue. The Vikings/Panthers were caught this year heating up balls on the sideline and it was barely news. The Bears ballboy recently said refs rarely actually measure the pressure pre-game.

I hadn't seen that quote so I stand corrected (even though it's hearsay). But I still maintain it's not nearly the same as this situation although I do feel like Rodgers should be reprimanded through a minor fine.

 

[wizards8507]

I hadn't seen that quote so I stand corrected (even though it's hearsay). But I still maintain it's not nearly the same as this situation although I do feel like Rodgers should be reprimanded through a minor fine.

I posted that quote like nine pages ago. I believe you RESPONDED to my posting of that quote.