[NFL] vBook: Colts vs Patriots (Deflategate)

[ShamrockOnHelmet]

If nothing else, I've learned one thing from this whole episode. Pats fans basically ARE Foghorn Leghorn.

 

[Irish YJ]

If nothing else, I've learned one thing from this whole episode. Pats fans basically ARE Foghorn Leghorn.

Would have been SEC fans if born in the South.

 

[Bubbles]

If nothing else, I've learned one thing from this whole episode. Pats fans basically ARE Foghorn Leghorn.

What does that make Pats haters?

 

[wizards8507]

Funny that nobody talks about how half the Seahawks are on PEDs. I guess that's not as sexy since Pete Carroll is a cheery fellow and BB is a curmudgeon.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 4 using Tapatalk.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

SIAP

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But, seriously, I don't care about this.

Wizards is right...the Seahawks and their PEDs are worse.

 

[ShamrockOnHelmet]

What does that make Pats haters?

Uhh, awesome, I guess...

 

[ShamrockOnHelmet]

Funny that nobody talks about how half the Seahawks are on PEDs. I guess that's not as sexy since Pete Carroll is a cheery fellow and BB is a curmudgeon.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 4 using Tapatalk.

Because that's called a strawman fallacy.

 

[Rhode Irish]

Sounding more and more like this wasn't the first time. How many close games did Patriots win this year?

Deflategate: Baltimore Ravens tipped off Indianapolis Colts about New England Patriots' deflating footballs | FOX Sports

This line of thinking is hard for me to understand. If you are following what the Patriots are using as a "defense" here (that Brady just preps the balls the way he wants and doesn't think about it again), then that would be true for every game since who knows when. The refs either identify non-compliant balls during inspection or they don't. If they don't, then the Patriots are to assume the balls are fine. So there is no effort to break any rules, they just prep the balls the way he wants them.

As far as how many close games did they win, I can't see how that matters. The idea that the amount of air in the ball is effecting any game results is absurd. It is a matter of comfort, not competitive advantage. That much is obvious when you look at Brady's performance in the AFC title game, where he supposedly used deflated balls in the first half and inflated balls in the second half. He was much better in the second half.

 

[gkIrish]

This line of thinking is hard for me to understand. If you are following what the Patriots are using as a "defense" here (that Brady just preps the balls the way he wants and doesn't think about it again), then that would be true for every game since who knows when. The refs either identify non-compliant balls during inspection or they don't. If they don't, then the Patriots are to assume the balls are fine. So there is no effort to break any rules, they just prep the balls the way he wants them.

As far as how many close games did they win, I can't see how that matters. The idea that the amount of air in the ball is effecting any game results is absurd. It is a matter of comfort, not competitive advantage. That much is obvious when you look at Brady's performance in the AFC title game, where he supposedly used deflated balls in the first half and inflated balls in the second half. He was much better in the second half.

Well a bunch of "experts" disagree with you. If it's absolutely meaningless, there wouldn't be a rule. Some QBs have smaller hands and a deflated ball allows them to get a better grip and thus throw a tighter spiral. Tighter grip also helps prevent fumbling. No one is saying it's a significant advantage, but I'd be willing to bet it's at least 1-3 points per game.

 

[connor_in]

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[irishfan]

Sounding more and more like this wasn't the first time. How many close games did Patriots win this year?

Deflategate: Baltimore Ravens tipped off Indianapolis Colts about New England Patriots' deflating footballs | FOX Sports

They won 3 games decided by 1-score. Raiders and Jets twice. Then the Ravens game in the playoffs also obviously was a 1-score game.

They played 5 total games against the other AFC playoff teams. They won by an average of 24.2 points. I think they were winning the AFC no matter what they did with the balls, which is kind of frustrating, but oh well. I still think this stuff happens all over the league.

A lot of it is how it is portrayed by the media. Seattle had 5 players get busted for PEDs from 2011-2013. That would be a media sh!tstorm if that were the Pats. If Indy got caught deflating football against the Pats, it would be a completely different story.

 

[Rhode Irish]

Well a bunch of "experts" disagree with you. If it's absolutely meaningless, there wouldn't be a rule. Some QBs have smaller hands and a deflated ball allows them to get a better grip and thus throw a tighter spiral. Tighter grip also helps prevent fumbling. No one is saying it's a significant advantage, but I'd be willing to bet it's at least 1-3 points per game.

Far more current and former players think this is a joke than not. You have a few guys with an ax to grind or serious mental deficiencies who may say otherwise, but I guess you have to pick who think is credible. A crying homeless guy? No thanks. That guy is so broke someone could have got him to say what they wanted him to in exchange for a breakfast sandwich from Dunkin. In fact, maybe that is why he was crying?

 

[dshans]

Wellllllll......: it was 50 degrees at kickoff in New England in January......

Just saying

Not really

Oh well.

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[Irish Fam]

They won 3 games decided by 1-score. Raiders and Jets twice. Then the Ravens game in the playoffs also obviously was a 1-score game.

They played 5 total games against the other AFC playoff teams. They won by an average of 24.2 points. I think they were winning the AFC no matter what they did with the balls, which is kind of frustrating, but oh well. I still think this stuff happens all over the league.

A lot of it is how it is portrayed by the media. Seattle had 5 players get busted for PEDs from 2011-2013. That would be a media sh!tstorm if that were the Pats. If Indy got caught deflating football against the Pats, it would be a completely different story.

The PED thing is without a doubt a problem. But to use the defense of, "yea, we may have cheated, but look at what those guys are doing!!" is quite poor to say the very least.

I had no cards in this game, and frankly I didn't care who won. My only issue is that the Patriots knowingly cheated (allegedly) and more than likely are going to seemingly skate free (chance to win a SuperBowl with some meaningless fine and the loss of a couple draft picks).

The whole, "I bet nobody would care if it wasn't my team!!" statement is laughable. If 11 of 12 of Seattle's balls were under inflated - by league rules - people would be coming down just as hard on Seattle. I simply don't buy the idea that people, or the media, are out to get the Patriots...

 

[Rhode Irish]

The whole, "I bet nobody would care if it wasn't my team!!" statement is laughable. If 11 of 12 of Seattle's balls were under inflated - by league rules - people would be coming down just as hard on Seattle. I simply don't buy the idea that people, or the media, are out to get the Patriots...

That just isn't true. I guarantee other teams played with footballs during the season that were outside of the PSI range. And nobody cared because they weren't the Patriots.

And further, if this thing was happening to Seattle or Pittsburgh or San Diego, I can honestly say that I would find it every bit as absurd. If the Patriots were searching for the most inconsequential rule they could find to break, they couldn't have done better. This whole thing is a joke.

 

[pkt77242]

The PED thing is without a doubt a problem. But to use the defense of, "yea, we may have cheated, but look at what those guys are doing!!" is quite poor to say the very least.

I had no cards in this game, and frankly I didn't care who won. My only issue is that the Patriots knowingly cheated (allegedly) and more than likely are going to seemingly skate free (chance to win a SuperBowl with some meaningless fine and the loss of a couple draft picks).

The whole, "I bet nobody would care if it wasn't my team!!" statement is laughable. If 11 of 12 of Seattle's balls were under inflated - by league rules - people would be coming down just as hard on Seattle. I simply don't buy the idea that people, or the media, are out to get the Patriots...

I don't think that the media is out to get the Patriots (for the record I am a Vikings fan not a Patriots fan) but I think that you are wrong in that the media definitely treats coaches differently based off of their opinion of them. I would say that if the Colts (using the Colts as the example both because Pagano is well liked by the media and because it is who the Patriots played) had the deflated balls it would have been a very different reaction then what has happened with the Patriots, partly because Pagano is so well liked by the media (and BB is not well liked by them) and because of Spygate.

It isn't so much that people are out to get the Patriots just that people (including the media) treat people differently based off of how they feel about them. It is a pretty natural human bias.

 

[Irish Fam]

That just isn't true. I guarantee other teams played with footballs during the season that were outside of the PSI range. And nobody cared because they weren't the Patriots.

And further, if this thing was happening to Seattle or Pittsburgh or San Diego, I can honestly say that I would find it every bit as absurd. If the Patriots were searching for the most inconsequential rule they could find to break, they couldn't have done better. This whole thing is a joke.

I think nobody cared because they didn't get caught. And, perhaps this is the obvious one, those other teams weren't playing for a spot in the Super Bowl.

Again, if Seattle were caught doing the same thing, there would certainly be the same unrest in the media and with the fans. Nobody likes to see an alleged cheater prosper.*

*Thats not to say that the under inflated balls won NE the game. Just simply that they cheated and won.

 

[Irish Fam]

I don't think that the media is out to get the Patriots (for the record I am a Vikings fan not a Patriots fan) but I think that you are wrong in that the media definitely treats coaches differently based off of their opinion of them. I would say that if the Colts (using the Colts as the example both because Pagano is well liked by the media and because it is who the Patriots played) had the deflated balls it would have been a very different reaction then what has happened with the Patriots, partly because Pagano is so well liked by the media (and BB is not well liked by them) and because of Spygate.

It isn't so much that people are out to get the Patriots just that people (including the media) treat people differently based off of how they feel about them. It is a pretty natural human bias.

Its pretty tough for me to argue this. But I just don't like the excuse that its only a big deal because they are the patriots. It is a big deal because they seemingly purposely broke the rules to gain whatever small advantage they could.

I guess I just don't buy that the media would just brush it off as nothing if the Colts had won and the news came out that they took air out of 11 of 12 balls to gain an advantage - however small that advantage may be.

 

[Rhode Irish]

If my team lost and I found out the other team played with underinflated balls I would never be able to convince myself that is why we lost. Even if we lost in a Tyree type of play, I wouldn't blame the damn footballs. That is just the weakest shit I've ever heard of. If someone paid off a ref, I could buy that. If someone hacked into our radio communications during the game and knew our plays, I'd buy that. But over- or under-inflated footballs? Seriously? Anyone being sanctimonious about that should be embarrassed.

 

[Irish Fam]

If my team lost and I found out the other team played with underinflated balls I would never be able to convince myself that is why we lost. Even if we lost in a Tyree type of play, I wouldn't blame the damn footballs. That is just the weakest shit I've ever heard of. If someone paid off a ref, I could buy that. If someone hacked into our radio communications during the game and knew our plays, I'd buy that. But over- or under-inflated footballs? Seriously? Anyone being sanctimonious about that should be embarrassed.

I don't mean to imply that I believe that is the reason the Colts lost. I truly believe it had absolutely no baring on the outcome. However, the fact of the matter is, the Patriots were using under inflated footballs... which is against the rules.

I guess I don't know how else to explain this.

The league sets a mandatory PSI for the footballs. That is an attempt to level the playing field. When a team knowingly alters their footballs, whether it provides an advantage of a touchdown, a first down, or one extra yard, they are cheating. It tarnishes the win.

I, for one, wish that it would have never happened. It is an obnoxious story line that is going to hover over the greatest single game of the year. There is unfortunately no way around that. But, it happened. And here I am writing on a message board at 11:30 about it... Shit.

 

[MPClinton22]

This whole story is so stupid. And anyone saying Brady should have been able to tell the difference should read what two actual QBs (aka not Mark Brunell) have to say:

Former NFL quarterbacks talk Deflategate

And I'm sick of sports analysts and writers spewing their opinions as fact. That's all this whole story has been. And anyone who thinks this story would have gained any traction if it were the Colts is deluding themselves. For gods sake Aaron Rodgers, golden boy of the NFL, has already admitted to breaking this rule regularly and NOBODY GIVES A DAMN. Pats hate runs deep and this story just proves it that much more. Call me an arrogant Pats fan or whatever, but with the Cowboys sucking for so long the Pats have become the ND of the NFL. Negative Pats press = good for ESPNs business and people like to see the Pats dragged through the mud. Just like with ND.

 

[wizards8507]

So dumb. Obviously Brady is going to be more sensitive to the pressure and feel of a football when he's in a room before the game for the sole purpose of picking game balls than he would be in the course of play when he's a bit preoccupied reading defenses, making adjustments, and generally PLAYING the game.

It's like a marathon runner spending weeks picking out the perfect socks. If you switched those socks out in the 20th mile with a pair that looked identical, had the same moisture content, and was made of the same material with just a 10% lighter weave, I'd venture to guess that he's not going to notice unless you specifically said "now think really hard... is there anything different about your socks?"

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 4 using Tapatalk.

 

[NCND]

Sounding more and more like this wasn't the first time. How many close games did Patriots win this year?

Deflategate: Baltimore Ravens tipped off Indianapolis Colts about New England Patriots' deflating footballs | FOX Sports

LOL. This whole "issue" is silly as fuck. A week before the Super Bowl and a deflated football is the talk of the sports world. It's really amazing to me. Take the tin foil hats off and remember the game is won between the lines.

 

[Irish#1]

So dumb. Obviously Brady is going to be more sensitive to the pressure and feel of a football when he's in a room before the game for the sole purpose of picking game balls than he would be in the course of play when he's a bit preoccupied reading defenses, making adjustments, and generally PLAYING the game.

It's like a marathon runner spending weeks picking out the perfect socks. If you switched those socks out in the 20th mile with a pair that looked identical, had the same moisture content, and was made of the same material with just a 10% lighter weave, I'd venture to guess that he's not going to notice unless you specifically said "now think really hard... is there anything different about your socks?"

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 4 using Tapatalk.

1. Did you really try to compare runners socks and a football? lol

2. It's obvious someone knew the balls were under-inflated. I would tend to lean towards Brady being more guilty than Belichik.

3. There are plenty of current and former players including QB's that say they can tell if a ball isn't inflated properly, just like there are those who say they can't.

4. No one anywhere including Colt fans think the balls were the reason they lost, so that shouldn't even be given as sour grapes. Not only did the Ravens think the balls may have been doctored, but the Colts reported the same thing to the league after their game in November, where I might add was played indoors.

5. Why does this seemingly small thing get blown up so much? Because it's the Patriots and they have a record of cheating. It probably wouldn't be that big of a deal if it was other teams, but they also don't have the history of cheating.

6. Not sure why they haven't spoken to Brady or BB yet, but my guess is they want to interview the equipment folks first so no clues or hints on what questions to expect can be passed along. Maybe Goodell wants to handle this after the SB? IMO, any decision now is going to overshadow the SB more than letting this fester a little longer.

 

[Irish#1]

From the NY Post.

For more than a decade, Tom Brady has established himself as one of the greatest quarterbacks of all-time, one of the sport’s most popular and respected players. On Wednesday, Brady may have jeopardized his credibility for good.
Like Patriots coach Bill Belichick, Brady denied having anything to do with footballs being deflated in the AFC Championship Game and denied knowing it had occurred until the next day, but to the quarterback’s former peers, the NFL’s golden boy lost some of the luster he had earned in his 15-year career.
“I did not believe what Tom had to say,” former quarterback and ESPN analyst Mark Brunell said. “Those balls were deflated. Someone had to do it and I don’t believe there’s an equipment manager in the NFL that would on his own initiative deflate a ball without the starting quarterback’s approval. I just didn’t believe what Tom Brady had to say.”
Former Steelers running back Jerome Bettis added, “I’m so disappointed because I thought this was a perfect opportunity for Tom Brady to go and say, ‘You know what? I made a mistake. I blew it. It’s on me. I’ll take the blame here, and this will go away.’ He didn’t do that … I’m disappointed in you Tom Brady.”
Fellow ESPN analyst Brian Dawkins said it was “unbelievable” for Brady not to be aware when he touched the balls every play, while Hall of Famer Troy Aikman agreed that the balls would not be altered unless Brady had instructed an equipment manager to do so.
“It’s obvious that Tom Brady had something to do with this,” Aikman told a Dallas radio station — before either of Brady’s or Belichick’s denials. “For the balls to be deflated, that doesn’t happen unless the quarterback wants that to happen, I can assure you of that. Now the question becomes: Did Bill Belichick know about it?”
Incredibly, the already tarnished Belichick left his press conference earlier in the day with more plausible deniability, particularly to quarterbacks familiar with the ball-picking process.
“I listened to Bill Belichick and I believed every word he said,” eight-year NFL pro Matt Leinart told The Post. “Not once did a head coach ever have any input in that. It’s strictly a quarterback to equipment manager thing and that’s pretty universal. Those are the only two guys that have any part of that process.
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Chris Canty
Photo: AP
“You go through the whole bag and you literally handpick them and say, ‘This one is good, this one’s too hard, put a little bit of air in that one, take a little bit out. … It’s a full 20-minute process to make sure on Sunday you have the exact football you want to be throwing. Quarterbacks are very, very picky about how they want their ball and that goes on everywhere.”
Leinart, now an analyst with FOX Sports, said he saw numerous things done to balls in his career, including being rubbed with varying substances and thrown in dryers, to get the right feel. He said he didn’t consider it cheating because “every team doctors up the ball to the liking of their quarterback” and that while deflation would help Brady with his grip, it would take away velocity and distance on throws.
Nevertheless, Ravens defensive end Chris Canty — whose team lost to the Patriots in the AFC divisional round — thinks it is just another example of New England’s willingness to do anything to gain an unfair edge.
“The Patriots are habitual line-steppers,” Canty said while appearing on NBCSN on Wednesday. “If the allegations are true, then you are talking about attacking the integrity of our game and I have an issue with that.
“What I’m going to say about the deflating of the balls, to me there is no difference than performance-enhancing drugs. You are cheating at that point. You are getting a competitive advantage outside of the rule book and there has to be some sort of consequences for that.”
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Troy Aikman
Aikman thinks the consequences should be harsher than the suspensions handed to the Saints for Bountygate in 2012, when NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell claimed ignorance was not an excuse.
“Sean Payton did not cheat,” Aikman said of the Saints coach who was suspended an entire year. “There was nothing that Sean Payton and the Saints did that was illegal. And they did not give themselves a competitive edge.
“Now twice, under Bill Belichick and possibly a third time, they’ve cheated and given themselves an advantage. To me, the punishment for the Patriots and/or Bill Belichick has to be more severe than what the punishment was for the New Orleans Saints.”
After a season filled with scandals — including Goodell’s indefensible decision to initially suspend Ray Rice two games in the former Ravens running back’s domestic violence case — Aikman thinks enormous pressure is on Goodell, especially due to his friendship with Patriots owner Robert Kraft.
“There’s a lot of coaches and a lot of people that look upon the Patriots as a team that’s been favored in some of the things that have happened — I thought the punishment he got for Spygate was a slap on the wrist, was next to nothing — so we’ll see,” Aikman said.

 

[NDRock]

Not the case. They're reporting a 2 psi drop. The range is only 1 psi. If the Colts began at the max range, a 2 psi drop would put them 1 psi below the minimum accepted measurement.

That's assuming both teams filled the balls exactly the same way. I'm no expert but I have filled hundreds of air bottles through the years and you can get a wide range of results based on how you fill the bottles. I assume footballs would be the same. I'm not arguing the Pats didn't knowingly do something to deflate the balls but I could see where they could easily get the desired results by letting "nature take its course".

 

[connor_in]

If my team lost and I found out the other team played with underinflated balls I would never be able to convince myself that is why we lost. Even if we lost in a Tyree type of play, I wouldn't blame the damn footballs. That is just the weakest shit I've ever heard of. If someone paid off a ref, I could buy that. If someone hacked into our radio communications during the game and knew our plays, I'd buy that. But over- or under-inflated footballs? Seriously? Anyone being sanctimonious about that should be embarrassed.

I am sure that pretty much everyove has said that it would not have made a difference in the final outcome of this game and honestly cannot recall even one person here on IE or in the media, or here in Indiana, who has said that if the PSI was right that the Colts would have won.


So " Anyone being sanctimonious about that ..."

 

[palinurus]

The trouble here is that there is a history of Belichik being cagey or worse, from nebulous injury reports, to the spying, to the footballs, to who knows what else (I don't really focus on it; I've even got a soft spot for Belichick since he coached both the Giants and Browns, both of whom I like, plus Kraft seems like a decent guy, with a pretty low "Owner-Ahole Quotient."

But let's not kid ourselves: This is more of an issue because of history; it wouldn't be the same if it was the Seahawks or Giants or whomever has a "cleaner" past. But at some level, we bring extra scrutiny upon ourselves . Suh gets fined for breathing on quarterbacks, but, well, he has only himself to blame.

Edit: After reading the above NY Post article, maybe there would be outcry if it was someone else. But still I am just not sure that a QB can or would squeeze a ball and say "yep, that's a lower PSI than the league allows, but it's how I want them. Leave 'em." rather than "yep, that feels right; thanks." I'm guessing Brady told the ball boy when the balls were the way he wanted, and figured that the refs would tell him if he was over the line (or under the PSI).

 

[irishfan]

The PED thing is without a doubt a problem. But to use the defense of, "yea, we may have cheated, but look at what those guys are doing!!" is quite poor to say the very least.

I had no cards in this game, and frankly I didn't care who won. My only issue is that the Patriots knowingly cheated (allegedly) and more than likely are going to seemingly skate free (chance to win a SuperBowl with some meaningless fine and the loss of a couple draft picks).

The whole, "I bet nobody would care if it wasn't my team!!" statement is laughable. If 11 of 12 of Seattle's balls were under inflated - by league rules - people would be coming down just as hard on Seattle. I simply don't buy the idea that people, or the media, are out to get the Patriots...

People would probably come down hard on Seattle as well, since they won recently and aren't a very well-liked team. If this happened to the Colts or Packers....I don't think it's much of a story. Rodgers admitted to over-inflating the balls before games and hoping that the refs don't check them. There has been pretty much no uproar about that at all besides from defensive Pats fans.

I really don't think this is a big deal at all. I really think it's the same thing as doctoring a baseball. Everyone does it and it's not enforced unless the opposing team really bitches about it. A Bears ballboy just said the other day that refs don't even measure the pressure of the balls most games pre-game. They just pick them up and check the laces and that's about it.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

The whole, "I bet nobody would care if it wasn't my team!!" statement is laughable. If 11 of 12 of Seattle's balls were under inflated - by league rules - people would be coming down just as hard on Seattle. I simply don't buy the idea that people, or the media, are out to get the Patriots...

I think that sort of mentality is very present on this board...when it pertains to Notre Dame football. It's just that we don't all root for the same NFL team.