Will 2012 be the peak of the Kelly era?

[stlnd01]

I do not see EG as the starter next year.

He is WAY too turnover prone. We need to have a better backup plan if he is though. Because he is just KILLING us.

When was the last game he did not have a TO?

Oh for the love of Pete. You do realize we'd have, what, three wins this year if not for Golson? That the only reason we came back against Arizona State and didn't lose by two scores to Northwestern was Golson? You want to throw Zaire in there against Louisville and USC? Really?
Yes, he's made some sloppy mistakes. Obviously he needs to take better care of the football when he's running and check out of throwing into bad spots now and then. But most of his mistakes are mistakes of aggressiveness, and a lot of his picks have involved poor blocking or bonehead plays by receivers. This is not Tommy Rees throwing it straight at some safety he never saw. It's balls getting tipped at the line. Golson getting hit as he throws. Passes bouncing off Corey Robinson's chest and into a D back's waiting arms.
He's not all blameless, but it's all things that can be fixed. And Golson's upside is enormous.

 

[Rudy89]

Yes it will. I have no reason to think otherwise until I see it. Going 7-6 or 8-5 this year and our QB play ( remember EG was going to be the savior because he wasn't awful like turnover Tommy) being the way it is, and our defense being awful I don't see why I should feel otherwise until I see it. What stings the most is our biggest rival is going to humiliate us. For all those that are gonna jump on my case my post isn't any worse than some of the others on here so yeah but until I see anything improve this team will be a middle of the road 6-8 win team a year and that season will be the peak.

 

[GATTACA!]

Oh for the love of Pete. You do realize we'd have, what, three wins this year if not for Golson? That the only reason we came back against Arizona State and didn't lose by two scores to Northwestern was Golson? You want to throw Zaire in there against Louisville and USC? Really?
Yes, he's made some sloppy mistakes. Obviously he needs to take better care of the football when he's running and check out of throwing into bad spots now and then. But most of his mistakes are mistakes of aggressiveness, and a lot of his picks have involved poor blocking or bonehead plays by receivers. This is not Tommy Rees throwing it straight at some safety he never saw. It's balls getting tipped at the line. Golson getting hit as he throws. Passes bouncing off Corey Robinson's chest and into a D back's waiting arms.
He's not all blameless, but it's all things that can be fixed. And Golson's upside is enormous.

Seriously? The only reason we had to come back was because of Golson! How can you say we would have 3 wins when Rees lead the team to 9 wins last year??

 

[woolybug25]

If he doesn't make a run next year, then yes.

We've had serious recruiting deficiencies on defense that are coming home to roost. Kelly originally inherited NFL caliber guys like Te'o, Smith, Blanton, Walls, Fleming, Nix, Ian Williams, KLM, Shembo... and the talent level now is worse than what he had from Weis at every position but QB. Next year sets up really well and that's his window. If he doesn't go 11-1 next year he might as well quit.

The fact that 7-5 is a more likely outcome than 9-3 after starting 7-1 is just so sad. The defense is very injured (and recruiting has clearly been shit on that side of the ball which is why we have no depth). 7-5 calls into question whether we'll even hold this class together.

I wouldn't call our young defense a "recruiting deficiency". We are simply young. We have a ton of talent and would have been pretty scary with the addition of Ishaq, Moore and KRuss this year. We have been decimated by injury and scandal, that's not a recruiting deficiency.

We have 4 and 5 star talent all over our defense. Don't know how much more people expect from defensive recruiting. There's probably less than 10 teams that have recruited better on defense than Notre Dame over the last few years.

 

[koonja]

Looking at 2015:

I expect Morgan and Smith to get better. Along with Cage if his injury doesn't set him back too much.

Ishaq will be a huge addition, as will KVR obviously.

I love Tranquill, but I think he's a high floor, low ceiling guy. He's already completely filled out for a safety. Maybe he can move to LB, but I'm not sure he'd excel there. I think he's already playing good football, but I don't expect it to be much better.

Day and Jones are good. I think Jones might have a big year next year. He's already playing good in big moments.

I like Luke and Butler. Combine that with KVR and Watkins and I think we'll have a great cornerback class in 2015. Farley too. I've been as hard on him as anyone, but he's a must next year IMO. Probably a captain.

I like Shummate and Redfield, but so far Redfield isn't the high 4-star guy we thought. Still a true sophomore in a new system this year. Safety play could be OK to really good next year.

On the DL, we need to recruit better. I know we think every 3-star we get is a steal, but they're not. Big time teams do not have depth issues to the untrained eye. It's not because we're unlucky and they avoid deflections/injuries/suspensions. It's because they're not recruiting projects, they're recruiting big time talent.

Personally, I'm over us getting excited when we get a 3-star guy, search his 12 offers, see one good team that offered 6 months ago but really didn't recruit him, and saying '_______ offer, sign him up!'.

You don't win big time football by going all in on 3/low 4 star guys on the lines. I'm not saying Kelly and co. doesn't know this, but they need to do better at DL recruiting.

Another area of recruiting is WR. Our WRs are not good outside of Fuller. Going to pass it 140 times a game, you better be passing it to play makers.

 

[connect the dots]

Yes it will. I have no reason to think otherwise until I see it. Going 7-6 or 8-5 this year and our QB play ( remember EG was going to be the savior because he wasn't awful like turnover Tommy) being the way it is, and our defense being awful I don't see why I should feel otherwise until I see it. What stings the most is our biggest rival is going to humiliate us. For all those that are gonna jump on my case my post isn't any worse than some of the others on here so yeah but until I see anything improve this team will be a middle of the road 6-8 win team a year and that season will be the peak.

Yellow flag thrown. Fifteen yard penalty for piling on!

 

[pkt77242]

Oh for the love of Pete. You do realize we'd have, what, three wins this year if not for Golson? That the only reason we came back against Arizona State and didn't lose by two scores to Northwestern was Golson? You want to throw Zaire in there against Louisville and USC? Really?
Yes, he's made some sloppy mistakes. Obviously he needs to take better care of the football when he's running and check out of throwing into bad spots now and then. But most of his mistakes are mistakes of aggressiveness, and a lot of his picks have involved poor blocking or bonehead plays by receivers. This is not Tommy Rees throwing it straight at some safety he never saw. It's balls getting tipped at the line. Golson getting hit as he throws. Passes bouncing off Corey Robinson's chest and into a D back's waiting arms.
He's not all blameless, but it's all things that can be fixed. And Golson's upside is enormous.

I will start with Golson should be our QB for now but I think you are giving him way too much of a pass for his mistakes. He fumbles a lot, gets lots of passes tipped because he is short, can't see the middle of the field so he throws to the outside into tight coverage and maybe most importantly he doesn't seem to have a grasp of how to deal with pressure. For example we have our RB split wide in an empty set and the defense shows blitz, 6 men vs our 5 blocking and he doesn't seem to grasp that you either need to get the ball out quick, change the protection and bring the RB in to block, or account for who the free blitzer will be and roll away from them. Multiple times this year he has not accounted for the fact that they are blitzing more people then we have blocking and he just stands there in the pocket unaware of what is coming at him till they are right on top of him. That is frustrating, and while coachable, one has to wonder why he hasn't learned from it yet.

Edit: to simplify he struggles with his presnap reads and that is a major contributor to his turnovers.

 

[wizards8507]

Oh for the love of Pete. You do realize we'd have, what, three wins this year if not for Golson? That the only reason we came back against Arizona State and didn't lose by two scores to Northwestern was Golson?

Are you kidding me? Some of you guys love to give Golson all the credit in the word for the holes he's dug us out of, but you ignore the fact that he's the one who puts us in holes in the first place. Yes, Golson can be an "A" college quarterback. He can also be an absolute "F" college quarterback. I'd much rather see someone who's a consistent B.

Also, what's with the assumption that Zaire sucks? What is that based on? I'm not saying "give him a shot" because we KNOW he's better than Golson, I'm saying give him a shot because we honestly have no clue how good he'll be and MAYBE he's better than Golson.

 

[N_D_Fighting_Irish]

Are you kidding me? Some of you guys love to give Golson all the credit in the word for the holes he's dug us out of, but you ignore the fact that he's the one who puts us in holes in the first place. Yes, Golson can be an "A" college quarterback. He can also be an absolute "F" college quarterback. I'd much rather see someone who's a consistent B.

Also, what's with the assumption that Zaire sucks? What is that based on? I'm not saying "give him a shot" because we KNOW he's better than Golson, I'm saying give him a shot because we honestly have no clue how good he'll be and MAYBE he's better than Golson.

Golson is a damn good QB. Zaire is not the answer. This offense demands too much out of the QB position. The turnovers are a byproduct of Kelly's offensive philosophy.

 

[connor_in]

 

[wizards8507]

Golson is a damn good QB. Zaire is not the answer.

You didn't answer my question. On what evidence are you basing your opinion that Zaire is NOT a "damn good QB"?

This offense demands too much out of the QB position.

Exactly, and Golson obviously can't handle it or he wouldn't be making so many of those "WTF!?" decisions and mistakes. He has all the physical gifts in the world (except size), but I just don't think he's mentally grasping the position.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

Originally Posted by IrishLax View Post
If he doesn't make a run next year, then yes.

We've had serious recruiting deficiencies on defense that are coming home to roost. Kelly originally inherited NFL caliber guys like Te'o, Smith, Blanton, Walls, Fleming, Nix, Ian Williams, KLM, Shembo... and the talent level now is worse than what he had from Weis at every position but QB. Next year sets up really well and that's his window. If he doesn't go 11-1 next year he might as well quit.

The fact that 7-5 is a more likely outcome than 9-3 after starting 7-1 is just so sad. The defense is very injured (and recruiting has clearly been **** on that side of the ball which is why we have no depth). 7-5 calls into question whether we'll even hold this class together.

Dude, the majority of those guys BK and his staff developed. He and his staff have put a ton of ND guys into the League. He has very talented and highly rated guys all over this roster (including the defense), they're just young and decimated by injury.

Starting 7-1 and most likely finishing 7-5 or even 7-6 if they don't get their shit together is brutal but it has to do with an unbelievable amount of turnovers and tons of significant injuries (and suspensions). BK isn't being wrongly accused of sucking, but he needs a little grace this year, imo.

Take a breath. It'll be ok.

 

[GowerND11]

Golson is a damn good QB. Zaire is not the answer. This offense demands too much out of the QB position. The turnovers are a byproduct of Kelly's offensive philosophy.

What? So Kelly is at fault for Golson being careless when running? Kelly is at fault for CRob not making a catch and the ball floating right to a DB? Kelly is at fault for a LT to get beat allowing Golson to be hit blind side, only for the ball to hit another OL's head and into a defenders hands?

Tell me how Pike and Collaros were screwed in Kelly's system? They played just fine.

 

[wizards8507]

Starting 7-1 and most likely finishing 7-5 or even 7-6 if they don't get their shit together is brutal but it has to do with an unbelievable amount of turnovers and tons of significant injuries (and suspensions).

You make it sound like turnovers and suspensions are mysterious cosmic forces that just happen all on their own. Those aren't independent variables. They flow from the coach.

EDIT: Even injuries. Injuries happen to every team. The best teams are prepared. "Next man in" can't just be a motto, we need guys who are ACTUALLY ready to step in when injuries do occur.

 

[koonja]

I'm done with the Tony Pike references. That seems to be more of an anomoly than anything. And it's not like the guy was lighting CFB on fire. He threw for 2,500 yards in 2009. What is that, 200 yards a game?

 

[wizards8507]

Another thing: People act like giving Zaire a chance would be a permanent, irreversible decision. If he gets a shot and turns out not to be ready, Golson goes back in and we're back where we started. Tommy helped the team when Golson wasn't ready to be 100% "the guy" in 2012.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

You make it sound like turnovers and suspensions are mysterious cosmic forces that just happen all on their own. Those aren't independent variables. They flow from the coach.

EDIT: Even injuries. Injuries happen to every team. The best teams are prepared. "Next man in" can't just be a motto, we need guys who are ACTUALLY ready to step in when injuries do occur.

I notice you conveniently removed the part of my quote where I said "BK isn't being wrongly accused of sucking." He absolutely needs to take part of the blame. So thank you for your condescending comment.

And that next man in thing is great except when it means the player stepping in is a true freshman who is either not mentally ready and/or physically ready. There's a huge difference in playing true freshmen vs plugging an upperclassmen backup.

 

[Irish Fam]

Kelly's offense doesn't call for a quarterback to throw for 300 and run for another 80 every game.
It requires a qb with above average athleticism, accuracy, and a decent deep ball.
I think we were blinded by tommy's poor athleticism and complete lack of deep ball and viewed Golson as the perfect fit for this offense. He frankly is not.
He is a Carmelo Anthony type player. He will shoot you into games that you have no business being in, but will also be the reason you lose to games that should have been comfortable victories. He will drive fans as crazy with rage at times as he will with joy at others.
My issue is that I thought this was going to be behind him this year. With all the talk in the offseason about him maturing and developing as a true quarterback with Whitfield, we are seeing the same things that made his highlight tape so exciting to watch: he is an athlete playing quarterback and not much more.

 

[woolybug25]

It's time to at least see Zaire, imo.

 

[connor_in]

Quick question: Do you think the coaches forgot how to coach? We had gotten pretty good at not giving up the ball. Then all of the sudden this season turnovers blow up. How do you unteach them to hold onto the ball?

Golson is responsible for a number of the fumbles and that needs to be corrected (obviously). But what did they coach to get him to start dropping it? You don't think after that first multi-fumble game they pulled him aside and started working on holding the ball? I would put my Northwestern ravaged bank account on the guess that they did...and again the next time. If you know the secret to make them stop, then tell us all and every coach in the world will be grateful. As far as his interceptions go, many are on EG as is the case with any QB...this includes the huge number of tipped at the line of scrimmage balls that come down in opponents hands, but not necessaily those like the CRob one at ASU where the receiver hands it to the DB.

I am starting to wonder if EG needs an exorcism...same with Brindza. Too many demons in their heads right now.


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[wizards8507]

Quick question: Do you think the coaches forgot how to coach? We had gotten pretty good at not giving up the ball. Then all of the sudden this season turnovers blow up. How do you unteach them to hold onto the ball?

Golson is responsible for a number of the fumbles and that needs to be corrected (obviously). But what did they coach to get him to start dropping it? You don't think after that first multi-fumble game they pulled him aside and started working on holding the ball? I would put my Northwestern ravaged bank account on the guess that they did...and again the next time. If you know the secret to make them stop, then tell us all and every coach in the world will be grateful. As far as his interceptions go, many are on EG as is the case with any QB...this includes the huge number of tipped at the line of scrimmage balls that come down in opponents hands, but not necessaily those like the CRob one at ASU where the receiver hands it to the DB.

I am starting to wonder if EG needs an exorcism...same with Brindza. Too many demons in their heads right now.

I'll limit my comments to Golson since he seems to be the only one with a turnover PROBLEM. Yes, Cam and Fuller turned over the ball on Saturday but it's not chronic with those guys.

Golson didn't have the pressure to win games in 2012 because he had an outstanding defense and a backup who took over numerous times with the game on the line. I think his fumbles are mental, the product of trying to do too much rather than some lack of "hold onto the football" drills. BK's role is to either get him through the mental hurdle or determine that he'll never get through the mental hurdle and go with a different QB.

 

[T Town Tommy]

It's time to at least see Zaire, imo.

Don't think that is gonna happen wooly. BK seemed to elude to the fact that EG is still the one in his post game presser.

 

[koonja]

What's keeping me grounded is, does anyone have any doubt we're undefeated with KVR, Ishaq, DD?

We would have beaten FSU and NW with them, no doubt.

ASU as well, IMO. But that one can be debated... We survived the first 6 without them, but they are massive losses to the 2014 team and it's showing.

 

[woolybug25]

Don't think that is gonna happen wooly. BK seemed to elude to the fact that EG is still the one in his post game presser.

I saw the presser. Just stating my opinion.

 

[Irish Fam]

What's keeping me grounded is, does anyone have any doubt we're undefeated with KVR, Ishaq, DD?

We would have beaten FSU and NW with them, no doubt.

ASU as well, IMO. But that one can be debated... We survived the first 6 without them, but they are massive losses to the 2014 team and it's showing.

I definitely have some doubt.

-Our receivers have stepped up in DD's absence, namely Fuller.
-Ishaq had done very little to make me believe he was going to take the next step this year. I don't know that he would be any more effective than Rochell has been.
-KVR is undoubtedly a huge loss, but it was our safeties that were getting exposed all day against Northwestern.

 

[BigIrish]

I definitely have some doubt.

-Our receivers have stepped up in DD's absence, namely Fuller.
-Ishaq had done very little to make me believe he was going to take the next step this year. I don't know that he would be any more effective than Rochell has been.
-KVR is undoubtedly a huge loss, but it was our safeties that were getting exposed all day against Northwestern.

When they were on the field, yes. NW got at least one 60-yard play when we decided to run a down with 10 men on the field. Evidently, our safety needed a rest.

 

[wizards8507]

What's keeping me grounded is, does anyone have any doubt we're undefeated with KVR, Ishaq, DD?

We would have beaten FSU and NW with them, no doubt.

ASU as well, IMO. But that one can be debated... We survived the first 6 without them, but they are massive losses to the 2014 team and it's showing.

Absolutely no chance. Fuller has played better than DD ever did. With all his raw talent, he tended to play lazy. Same with Ishaq. KVR would have helped I guess but our corners have probably been the strongest area of our defense.

In all honesty, Golson might even have MORE interceptions if he had a clear #1 receiver to focus on.

 

[gkIrish]

Absolutely no chance. Fuller has played better than DD ever did. With all his raw talent, he tended to play lazy. Same with Ishaq. KVR would have helped I guess but our corners have probably been the strongest area of our defense.

In all honesty, Golson might even have MORE interceptions if he had a clear #1 receiver to focus on.

Wait...you don't think there's "any chance" we beat FSU or Northwestern with DD, KVR, and Ishaq?

Pass it this way

 

[koonja]

Absolutely no chance. Fuller has played better than DD ever did. With all his raw talent, he tended to play lazy. Same with Ishaq. KVR would have helped I guess but our corners have probably been the strongest area of our defense.

In all honesty, Golson might even have MORE interceptions if he had a clear #1 receiver to focus on.

Probably the biggest overreaction I've seen in a while. To say we have 0 chance at being undefeated if those 3 were on the team is ridic.

ND would have beaten FSU. They basically did without the 3 aformentioned future NFL players. NW, same story. ASU is the only game that would have been in question, as I'm not sure their presence would have made the difference. We were totally out schemed and out Golson'd that game.

And yeah, Fuller's great. But DD is very arguably better (IMO, DD > Fuller, and I'm all in on Fuller). Know what's better than ONE great WR? Two, with one on each side.

 

[wizards8507]

Wait...you don't think there's "any chance" we beat FSU or Northwestern with DD, KVR, and Ishaq?

Pass it this way.

Koon said undefeated. No, I don't think there's "any chance" we beat Florida State AND Northwestern AND Arizona State even with those players.