Video of the Pass Interference

[kmoose]

Srry if mentioned but for the people who are on the side of fuller being called is justified. Look at it again, fuller is running an inside route and darby steps infront and cuts him off, what would your reaction be if someone stepped infront of you like that. Fuller did nothing wrong darby tried to jump his inside route and fuller ran into him, his momentum made it look like he was blocking

By rule, the offensive player is responsible to avoid contact with the defensive player, so Darby jumping in front of Fuller means nothing.

 

[tussin]

By rule, the offensive player is responsible to avoid contact with the defensive player, so Darby jumping in front of Fuller means nothing.

For the love of God, you said this in the other thread and it's wrong. How can Fuller avoid contact initiated by Darby? Darby jumped the route and ran into him. This isn't that hard to understand!

 

[Rocket89]

For the love of God, you said this in the other thread and it's wrong. How can Fuller avoid contact initiated by Darby? Darby jumped the route and ran into him. This isn't that hard to understand!

That, plus the penalty wasn't called on Fuller.

The ref saw all the contact between Prosise & Ramsey and is in the process of throwing his flag a split second before Fuller & Darby even make contact.

 

[IrishinTN]

By rule, the offensive player is responsible to avoid contact with the defensive player, so Darby jumping in front of Fuller means nothing.

That's a rule that enforced incorrectly all the time then.

 

[Luckylucci]

For the love of God, you said this in the other thread and it's wrong. How can Fuller avoid contact initiated by Darby? Darby jumped the route and ran into him. This isn't that hard to understand!

Agreed. The people that believe it was the right call are reading the rule and the word avoid and extrapolating that a WR by rule should be running away from contact and that just isn't true or the way the game is played. The way the call is supposed to be ruled is does the WR impede the progress of the defender or go out of his way to do so. The answer is No. Darby puts himself underneath/inside of Fuller where he immediately becomes irrelevant to Crob and the play. Like I said before the only way this is called correctly is if one of the defenders was actually trying to make a play for Crob and CJ or Fuller were disrupting there movement instead of running the route.

 

[kmoose]

For the love of God, you said this in the other thread and it's wrong. How can Fuller avoid contact initiated by Darby? Darby jumped the route and ran into him. This isn't that hard to understand!

For the love of God, I will take the word of the actual rule, over yours, as to whether or not I am right about the rule. But hey, if you say the rule is wrong, then maybe you should talk to the NCAA about it.

Section 3. Forward Pass Archives - RuleTool | RuleTool

7-3-8-b



Offensive pass interference by a team a player beyond the neutral zone during a legal forward pass play in which a forward pass crosses the neutral zone is contact that interferes with a team b eligible player. It is the responsibility of the offensive player to avoid the opponents. It is not offensive pass interference (A.R. 7-3-8-IV, V, X, XV and XVI):
1.When, after the snap, a team a ineligible player immediately charges and contacts an opponent at a point not more than one yard beyond the neutral zone and does not continue the contact more than three yards beyond the neutral zone.
2.When two or more eligible players are making a simultaneous and bona fide attempt to reach, catch or bat the pass. Eligible players of either team have equal rights to the ball (A.R. 7-3-8-IX).
3.When the pass is in flight and two or more eligible players are in the area where they might receive or intercept the pass and an offensive player in that area impedes an opponent, and the pass is not catchable.

So what are you using as the basis for your assertion that I am wrong? Your biased opinion, or some actual facts?

 

[tussin]

For the love of God, I will take the word of the actual rule, over yours, as to whether or not I am right about the rule. But hey, if you say the rule is wrong, then maybe you should talk to the NCAA about it. So what are you using as the basis for your assertion that I am wrong? Your biased opinion, or some actual facts?

Again, the basis is that Fuller made no effort to create contact, and one can argue that he actually was trying to avoid contact. Darby ran into him. The ref was in no position to determine that Fuller wasn't trying to avoid contact. He has no idea and neither do you. It's unreasonable to think that Fuller should have avoided all contact on the play.

When it comes down to it, you just can't throw the flag. Under your interpretation of the rule, an effective strategy for DBs would just be to run into WRs every play and get OPI calls because the WR "didn't avoid contact." It's an absurd interpretation of the rule, and not applicable to the final play of the game.

 

[RDU Irish]

ACC Suspends Head Official From FSU-Miami Game | Seminoles Chant

This David Epperley?

 

[kmoose]

Again, the basis is that Fuller made no effort to create contact, and one can argue that he actually was trying to avoid contact. Darby ran into him. The ref was in no position to determine that Fuller wasn't trying to avoid contact. He has no idea and neither do you. It's unreasonable to think that Fuller should have avoided all contact on the play.

When it comes down to it, you just can't throw the flag. Under your interpretation of the rule, an effective strategy for DBs would just be to run into WRs every play and get OPI calls because the WR "didn't avoid contact." It's an absurd interpretation of the rule, and not applicable to the final play of the game.

I don't have the answer for why DBs don't just throw themselves in front of receivers in an effort to draw a PI penalty, other than this: if the pass is intended for receiver A, and the defender jumps in front of him, then the defender is now impeding the receiver's path to the ball, not the other way around, so the defender is guilty of PI. The point of emphasizing that the offensive player is responsible to avoid contact, is that Darby jumping in front of Fuller is immaterial. Darby did not impede Fuller's path to the ball, as he was on the inside and the ball was thrown outside. I do agree that there was a hold on Prosise that was missed, but I think that was more because the DB did a good job of hiding the hold from the officials, more than the officials purposely throwing the game for Florida State.

 

[wizards8507]

I still think it was the correct call, but FWIW... this might throw a wrench is the "everyone hates us" argument that many people seem so fond of making.

 

[tussin]

I don't have the answer for why DBs don't just throw themselves in front of receivers in an effort to draw a PI penalty, other than this: if the pass is intended for receiver A, and the defender jumps in front of him, then the defender is now impeding the receiver's path to the ball, not the other way around, so the defender is guilty of PI. The point of emphasizing that the offensive player is responsible to avoid contact, is that Darby jumping in front of Fuller is immaterial. Darby did not impede Fuller's path to the ball, as he was on the inside and the ball was thrown outside. I do agree that there was a hold on Prosise that was missed, but I think that was more because the DB did a good job of hiding the hold from the officials, more than the officials purposely throwing the game for Florida State.

I don't think the game was thrown. It was just the wrong call. A huge f-up by the officials in the biggest moment of arguably the biggest game of the season. An epic fail.

I'm grabbing from a post on ISD that I think we can both agree with:

NCAA rules are horribly written and largely inadequate. The way the rule reads, if an offensive player is further than a yard beyond the LOS comes in contact with a defensive player, the contact is assumed to be the offensive player's fault. So according to this explanation in and of itself, a defender could knock a receiver down and lay on him and it would be offensive pass interference.

 

[RDU Irish]

I still think it was the correct call, but FWIW... this might throw a wrench is the "everyone hates us" argument that many people seem so fond of making.

You can hate someone and still acknowledge they got hosed. Not a mutual exclusive decision process.

 

[wizards8507]

You can hate someone and still acknowledge they got hosed. Not a mutual exclusive decision process.

Not mutually exclusive, but definitely correlated. People who hate the Patriots tend to think the tuck rule game in 2001 was bullshit, while Patriots fans believe the correct call was made.

I wonder how many people would be crying if the Bush Push was flagged. In that instance, the letter of the rule was ignored and ND fans flipped. In this instance, the letter of the rule was enforced and ND fans flipped. You can't have it both ways. Either referees should "let the boys play" and we all can stop complaining about the Bush Push, or they can enforce the rules as written and we stop complaining about offensive pass interference.

 

[Cackalacky]

http://www.theacc.com/#!/video-detail/k5N203cTo1mISwdgvmymCTb__m1r7ARt

The ACC Response to the call (VIDEO). Can't embed.

 

[RDU Irish]

I thought it was a semi-legit but poorly timed call at the time through gin soaked eyes and thinking Prosise initiated the contact and bull rushed the defender. Hearing Dumbo Fisher say they complained to the refs about it, heightening their awareness made it obvious they would have never called if not previously prompted (not unlike the roughing the snapper call against UNC). Highly subjective call that isn't getting called unless they are looking for it.


Now that it is clear he was held and pulled, thus preventing his release (plus all the other stuff) I see pure BS. FSU blew the coverage and got bailed out by an overly impressionable ref with FSU players like told to be even more aggressively trying to get a pick call in all rub situations.

 

[kmoose]

I don't think the game was thrown. It was just the wrong call. A huge f-up by the officials in the biggest moment of arguably the biggest game of the season. An epic fail.

I'm grabbing from a post on ISD that I think we can both agree with:

NCAA rules are horribly written and largely inadequate. The way the rule reads, if an offensive player is further than a yard beyond the LOS comes in contact with a defensive player, the contact is assumed to be the offensive player's fault. So according to this explanation in and of itself, a defender could knock a receiver down and lay on him and it would be offensive pass interference.

That would be defensive holding. I would agree that the rules are often ambiguous, and the interpretations of different officials and analysts causes a lot of problems. But you can't write a different rule for EVERY eventuality. Because of that truth, you have to write them with some room for interpretation. It's just the nature of the beast, and one of the harsh realities of life.

 

[RDU Irish]

KMoose, watch the ACC head official link above and pay particular attention to his references to discretion and interpretation of intent. Jimbo got in the officials' ears earlier planting the seed for a pick call and prompted his players to be more aggressive. Good job working over the officials, bad job by the officials getting manipulated.

 

[connor_in]

http://www.theacc.com/#!/video-detail/k5N203cTo1mISwdgvmymCTb__m1r7ARt

The ACC Response to the call (VIDEO). Can't embed.

That was barely relevant. He stated the rule only. He did not state whom it was called on (at the game Fuller by ref, CJ by announcers, reportedly CJ by ref or ACC at a later time).

 

[Cackalacky]

That was barely relevant. He stated the rule only. He did not state whom it was called on (at the game Fuller by ref, CJ by announcers, reportedly CJ by ref or ACC at a later time).

It was linked in a CBS article about how wrong BK was and how the ACC said they got it right. LOL.

This is how the narrative for the masses is written. No one is having a discussion like we are having here.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I still think it was the correct call, but FWIW... this might throw a wrench is the "everyone hates us" argument that many people seem so fond of making.

Playing the most despicable team in the NCAA will do that. Props to FSU for making the entire country root for us, at least for one game.

I wonder how many people would be crying if the Bush Push was flagged. In that instance, the letter of the rule was ignored and ND fans flipped. In this instance, the letter of the rule was enforced and ND fans flipped. You can't have it both ways. Either referees should "let the boys play" and we all can stop complaining about the Bush Push, or they can enforce the rules as written and we stop complaining about offensive pass interference.

I don't think there's any question that refs should swallow their whistles on game-deciding plays unless an obvious penalty blatantly affects the outcome. The refs were correct not to flag USC in '05, and Weis said as much after the game. There's no hypocrisy by ND fans here.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Rocket Ismail, and how a questionable clipping call in '91 Orange Bowl came to be a defining moment in his life:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/jb0shgJJEtE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[IrishinTN]

Playing the most despicable team in the NCAA will do that. Props to FSU for making the entire country root for us, at least for one game.

I was in a bar in Oxford Mississippi watching this after the Ole Miss/UT game. Even filled with all those SEC fans of both teams in the room, the cheers erupted when ND looked like they went ahead, and screams and curses flew at the tv when they announced the penalty. I was pretty amazed at how united everyone was for at least those five minutes, even if it was mostly hatred of FSU.

 

[tussin]

Rocket Ismail, and how a questionable clipping call in '91 Orange Bowl came to be a defining moment in his life:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/jb0shgJJEtE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

They should consider bringing Rocket in to talk to the team.

 

[wizards8507]

The refs were correct not to flag USC in '05, and Weis said as much after the game. There's no hypocrisy by ND fans here.

There's no hypocrisy by YOU here. I'd bet you're in the minority of ND fans being "okay" with that no-call.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Here's an SBNation article on the controversial call. It doesn't feature any analysis, but does include some comments from Kelly that I hadn't seen before. Apparently the ACC admitted to blowing the call re the FSU player's removed helmet.

Do yourself a favor and don't even glance at the comments.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

There's no hypocrisy by YOU here. I'd bet you're in the minority of ND fans being "okay" with that no-call.

Our coach opined after the game that the refs were right not to call it. He also said he hoped his RBs would do the same if faced with a similar situation. When the most high-profile representative of ND football (at the time) takes such a public stance, it tends to undermine kvetching by the fan base.

By definition, we're in the lunatic fringe of ND's fan base simply because we're debating the propriety of a ref's non-call that happened nearly 10 years ago. But based on anecdotal evidence, I doubt a majority of ND fans thinks we got "robbed" in that game.

 

[Jerry]

I still think it was the correct call, but FWIW... this might throw a wrench is the "everyone hates us" argument that many people seem so fond of making.

You have to figure that mostly ND fans are still searching stuff like this poll out on the internet. Most FSU fans probably have already moved on.

 

[Emcee77]

Our coach opined after the game that the refs were right not to call it. He also said he hoped his RBs would do the same if faced with a similar situation. When the most high-profile representative of ND football (at the time) takes such a public stance, it tends to undermine kvetching by the fan base.

By definition, we're in the lunatic fringe of ND's fan base simply because we're debating the propriety of a ref's non-call that happened nearly 10 years ago. But based on anecdotal evidence, I doubt a majority of ND fans thinks we got "robbed" in that game.

Right, I never felt that we were "robbed" in '05. It was just a shame the way it went down. The time ran off the clock and we started celebrating like we won. Then we had to watch that Bush Push play. But even at the time I was never mad that no penalty was called on that play.

 

[Luckylucci]

Here's an SBNation article on the controversial call. It doesn't feature any analysis, but does include some comments from Kelly that I hadn't seen before. Apparently the ACC admitted to blowing the call re the FSU player's removed helmet.

Do yourself a favor and don't even glance at the comments.

So what would the result of the play have been if they called the Offensive PI and then the unsportsmanlike conduct of the FSU player removing his helmet? Would it have been 1st and goal from the 9 with 13 seconds left?

 

[RDU Irish]

I'm with Emcee on this one. That would have been the first time I ever say that penalty called if they could have called Bush for the Push. Then again, I don't really see many people committing that penalty.

This one, I don't even see the penalty. I can see how Prosise could have been viewed from the wrong angle as such but Fuller makes no sense whatsoever. And neither one changed the play if they HAD committed the ticky tack penalty.