'11 FL DE Aaron Lynch (USF Transfer)

greyhammer90

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To clarify, my references to "assault" were really to someone of Lynch's stature beating up on a woman; not something as inconsequential as a smack or a push.



Moral culpability != legal culpability. Wouldn't you agree that there's a massive moral difference between killing someone unintentionally due to the impaired operation of a vehicle vs. murdering that person in cold blood? Our criminal laws certainly draw that distinction, since the penalties involved for 1st Degree Murder are far harsher than Vehicular Manslaughter.



No one is implying that we can or should. But as I mentioned before, our laws are not concerned solely with justice. We arrest and prosecute DUI offenders mostly for deterrence, and not because those people have committed an evil act.



I assume you'd agree that moral culpability hinges on knowledge and intent. How can the involvement of an addictive mind-altering substance increase one's moral culpability? Again, no one here is suggesting that intoxication should be a legal defense to statutory and negligence-based crimes.



See LAX's post above. Are the elderly just as morally culpable when they get behind the wheel? Because many of them are an even bigger danger than your average drunk driver. There are simply too many factors involved to categorically state "DRUNK (how drunk?) DRIVING (how far/ fast?) = MORAL DEVIANCE".



You can't conceive of such a scenario? Consider a guy who feels a little buzzed (would blow a 0.9), but still completely in control of his facilities gets behind the wheel and drives less than two miles along deserted country roads to his home without incident. Then consider his neighbor who was home beating the tar of his poor wife. The first guy is technically guilty of DUI. You think he's more morally culpable than his neighbor?

Now your twisting things. You never said any of this hitting a weak 100 pound woman and the guy is 300 pounds and shoots bolts of lightining from his eyes garbage before. That's manipulative restructuring of your original argument. You said Lynchs crime could not be morally compared with Floyd's. When questioned you said only that one was Victimless while the other one wasn't. That was what gk and I were arguing against. Because by that logic any assault is morally worse than any drunk driving. Restructuring in this way is convenient for you because it destroys our arguments based around your original premise, but it's essentially hitting reset on the entire argument

Also I'll say that at least for my argument the questions of alcohol impairment are a distraction from my point. Which was that Drunk Driving is not, on the whole, victimless. Though any given act of drunk driving can be victimless.
 
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Whiskeyjack

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Basically, I think I get what you are saying, Whiskey, but I am having trouble accepting the view that we are less culpable for things we do while drunk, to whatever extent we voluntarily got drunk.

Less culpable than one would be had he committed those crimes fully sober, and with malice aforethought. But still much more culpable than he would have been had he simply not gotten drunk in the first place. It's not black and white.

Consider the following hypothetical:

A intends to get drunk, does not intend to harm anyone, but actually causes a fatal car crash.

B intends to kill his girlfriend, actually beats her within an inch of her life, but due to the invention of a third party, doesn't actually kill her.

Who would you say is more morally culpable there? In my mind, B's actions are much much worse than A's. Now A is still morally culpable, and no one should feel sorry for him when he loses his license, spends 10 years in jail, and loses everything he owns in a civil suit to the victim's family. But is A an evil person? No, certainly not in the sense that B is.

And that's why I'd argue that Lynch's alleged domestic abuse morally worse than Floyd's DUI.

Now your twisting things. You never said any of this hitting a weak 100 pound woman and the guy is 300 pounds and shoots bolts of lightining from his eyes garbage before. That's manipulative restructuring of your original argument. You said Lynchs crime could not be morally compared with Floyd's. When questioned you said only that one was Victimless while the other one wasn't. That was what gk and I were arguing against. Because by that logic any assault is morally worse than any drunk driving.

Also I'll say that at least for my argument the questions of alcohol impairment are a distraction from my point. Which was that Drunk Driving is not, on the whole, victimless. Though any given act of drunk driving can be victimless.

All of my posts on this topic have been in relation the comparative morality of Floyd's DUI v. alleged domestic abuse of Lynch. I maintain that it's still a difficult thing to do (as the last two pages full of long complex posts can attest) because the former is a crime of negligence and the latter is a specific intent crime that requires an "evil mind" (which is, in my opinion, prima facie evidence of moral turpitude).

Floyd didn't intend to hurt anyone, and didn't actually hurt anyone; Lynch allegedly intended to hurt a woman, and allegedly did hurt that woman. On those facts, I'm comfortable asserting that Lynch's actions were morally much worse than Floyd's.
 
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greyhammer90

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Again I'm not saying one is worse than the other or not. My sticking point is your throwaway comment that getting into the car at .19 is "negligence". That's not negligence to me. Not putting down a wet floor sign is negligence. Dropping something on someone's foot that you should've paid attention to is negligence. Playing a prank on someone that goes wrong is negligence.

Knowingly doing something that you're told since the age of 5 is extremely dangerous and deadly isnt negligent. It's extremely reckless.
 

IrishLax

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Again I'm not saying one is worse than the other or not. My sticking point is your throwaway comment that getting into the car at .19 is "negligence". That's not negligence to me. Not putting down a wet floor sign is negligence. Dropping something on someone's foot that you should've paid attention to is negligence. Playing a prank on someone that goes wrong is negligence.

Knowingly doing something that you're told since the age of 5 is extremely dangerous and deadly isnt negligent. It's extremely reckless.

Is it though? Is it?

See my above post. 1 in a million he kills someone. Literally... one in a million. Don't buy the drunk driving propaganda machine.
 

Whiskeyjack

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Again I'm not saying one is worse than the other or not. My sticking point is your throwaway comment that getting into the car at .19 is "negligence". That's not negligence to me. Not putting down a wet floor sign is negligence. Dropping something on someone's foot that you should've paid attention to is negligence. Playing a prank on someone that goes wrong is negligence.

Knowingly doing something that you're told since the age of 5 is extremely dangerous and deadly isnt negligent. It's extremely reckless.

When I described DUI as a "crime of negligence," I wasn't doing so in order to minimize it's potential impact; I was simply attempting to classify it in one of two distinct groups of prohibited behaviors. Specific-intent crimes require an evil mind; it's not enough that something bad happened, but the accused must have intended for that outcome. Negligence "crimes" don't involve the accused's state of mind at all; all the plaintiff/ prosecutor needs to prove is that the accused owed the victim a duty of care, and he failed to uphold it.

Specific-intent crimes are, generally speaking, morally much worse than negligence "crimes" (and I only put that in parentheses because it encompasses a lot of civil claims as well), because they require a high level of intent. The average sentence for rape or murder is obviously much stiffer than that for vehicular manslaughter.

Lynch's alleged assault would qualify as a specific-intent crime. Floyd's DUI, despite the potentially serious consequences, is still a crime of negligence because he didn't intend to hurt anyone. Thus, I conclude that Lynch's alleged assault was morally worse than Floyd's DUI. It all hinges on intent; not on serious (yet unconsidered) potential consequences.
 

greyhammer90

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When I described DUI as a "crime of negligence," I wasn't doing so in order to minimize it's potential impact; I was simply attempting to classify it in one of two distinct groups of prohibited behaviors. Specific-intent crimes require an evil mind; it's not enough that something bad happened, but the accused must have intended for that outcome. Negligence "crimes" don't involve the accused's state of mind at all; all the plaintiff/ prosecutor needs to prove is that the accused owed the victim a duty of care, and he failed to uphold it.

Specific-intent crimes are, generally speaking, morally much worse than negligence "crimes" (and I only put that in parentheses because it encompasses a lot of civil claims as well), because they require a high level of intent. The average sentence for rape or murder is obviously much stiffer than that for vehicular manslaughter.

Lynch's alleged assault would qualify as a specific-intent crime. Floyd's DUI, despite the potentially serious consequences, is still a crime of negligence because he didn't intend to hurt anyone. Thus, I conclude that Lynch's alleged assault was morally worse than Floyd's DUI. It all hinges on intent; not on serious (yet unconsidered) potential consequences.

I have an issue with that principle because there are so many scenarios where that falls apart.

For example, if I punch a UFC fighter on the street out of anger, applying your logic that would always be morally worse than anything else on Earth I could do, no matter how deadly, as long as I didn't absolutely intend the deadly outcome, and so long as there was some percentage chance that it wouldn't happen. That seems totally bonkers.
 

irishog77

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This is so off topic now, but w/e. This isn't me defending Floyd at all, this is just me taking a shot at drunk driving propaganda. I was heavily involved in SADD when I was in high school... and as a byproduct of my research learned that basically all drunk driving laws are bullshit pushed through by MADD. MADD is no different than any other special interest group with an agenda and lobbying arm. I don't blame them for being so impassioned because they lost a child or relative or someone they cared about to drunk driving... but they've lead a carefully constructed campaign of misinformation by carefully choosing which facts they present/highlight to make people think drunk driving is FAR more dangerous than it actually is. Everything from carefully curtailed studies to their misleading "drunk goggles" they give kids to simulate the experience of being over the limit... it's all bullshit.

First of all, a .19 is really bad. At this level, most people are what you would consider "hammered" and it's completely irresponsible to drive. However, it's not the same for each person, and while charts will make it sound like you're blackout drunk at this point there are tons of people who can function "normally" at a high BAC like this. And breathalyzers can be historically inaccurate. Never trust what someone "blows"... only trust a blood test.

Second, the odds of a drunk driver causing a fatality when they get behind the wheel are incredibly low. Only roughly 1 in 200 accidents (0.5%) result in a fatality. There are roughly 1.13 fatalities per 100,000,000 vehicle miles traveled including all conditions. On the highish side of averages, a drunk driver with 0.10 BAC is ~10 times more likely to get into a fatal accident than a normal 0.00 BAC driver. So... doing the math... a drunk driver with a 0.10 BAC has a 0.00001% chance of causing an auto fatality per mile driven. Or, to put it in more regular terms, if you have very long 10 mile drive home from a bar and are drunk you have a 1 in a million chance of being in a fatal accident. How exactly is that extremely dangerous/reckless? Those are pretty good odds, and in many professions... like construction... are considered simply acceptable daily risk. You have a MUCH higher probability of fatality in most cities simply walking around late at night then getting behind the wheel "dangerously" drunk.

Last but not least, a "normal" driver with a .10 BAC is safer than an elderly driver with a 0.00 BAC. If drunk driving is truly so dangerous and such a scourge that it needs to taken incredibly seriously and harshly punished... then why do we permit 70+ year old people to drive at all? They are, statistically, much more likely to kill someone on the road than an "average" driver who is above the legal limit.

Just some food for thought.

Is it though? Is it?

See my above post. 1 in a million he kills someone. Literally... one in a million. Don't buy the drunk driving propaganda machine.

I'm actually glad you brought this up. I know it's almost taboo to say so, but the DWI/DUI laws have gotten ridiculous. And I say this as somebody very anti-drunk driving and as somebody who has seen lives destroyed by it. But the DUI industry in America has become a racket. It truly has. Again, I make no defense of driving while drunk, but the game has been rigged.

States have lowered the legal limit (sometimes due to pressure from the federal government withholding money to states until lowered), to where .08 is now considered intoxicated. A universal standard is applied to something that doesn't effect people universally. Hmmm, makes sense. VERY questionable methods are used in pulling over, questioning, and then field testing a suspect. Then the universal standard is placed on a test where the device used isn't extremely reliable. Refusal to take this test now results in automatic guilt in most states. I guess I find it strange that people our judicial system is based on the presumption of innocence, until guilt is proven. Yet in the DUI industry, the opposite is what happens-- guilty unless proven innocent. I wonder why the aclu and other advocacy groups don't bring this up?

I think the biggest reason people don't fight it is MADD. I appreciate MADD and have worked with them some over the years. But no politician or advocacy group is going to stand up to or in opposition against a mother who has lost a child to a drunk driver. But as Lax said, they are the ones steering the ship when it comes to DUI laws in our country. And statistics are manipulated or outright falsified against drivers who have been drinking.

I think the monetary issue is another reason for the current state of DUI laws. For some lawyers, this is the bread and butter of their practice. I am grateful that many states have closed closed some loopholes and have given mandatory sentencing for violators, but even still, I hear stories all the time about people spending $6k, $10k, $12k for a lawyer...for a traffic stop with mandatory guidelines. What the hell is the lawyer doing to "earn" that money?? Even lawyers not charging that much still earn considerable income from the DUI/DWI industry. I've have 2 friends in 2 different states who have recently told me that self-representation is the best way to go.

And then the fees and fines have become a cottage industry for many municipalities. The fees and fines paid for DUI's and DWI's adds quite a bit to the coffers.

So, bottom line, regardless of how I may feel about the offense itself, I still have a problem with laws that seriously hardship a person's professional, financial, and personal life based on vague circumstances, a not-totally reliable test based on a low universal standard for something that doesn't effect people universally, that lines the pockets of lawyers and local government offices, all crafted by a group of people we feel sympathetic toward.

I definitely think there is room in our country to be anti drunk driving, yet anti current-system-in-place.
 

Grahambo

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I have an issue with that principle because there are so many scenarios where that falls apart.

For example, if I punch a UFC fighter on the street out of anger, applying your logic that would always be morally worse than anything else on Earth I could do, no matter how deadly, as long as I didn't absolutely intend the deadly outcome, and so long as there was some percentage chance that it wouldn't happen. That seems totally bonkers.


If you punch a UFC fighter, knowing the guy/girl is a UFC fighter, then you're just an idiot.
 

Whiskeyjack

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I have an issue with that principle because there are so many scenarios where that falls apart.

For example, if I punch a UFC fighter on the street out of anger, applying your logic that would always be morally worse than anything else on Earth I could do, no matter how deadly, as long as I didn't absolutely intend the deadly outcome, and so long as there was some percentage chance that it wouldn't happen. That seems totally bonkers.

Is the converse of this any less absurd? For example, if I back out of my driveway without checking my rear-view mirror, there's a non-negligble chance (at least in my neighborhood) that I would run over and kill a toddler on a tricycle. Applying your logic, that negligent act would always be morally worse--due to the potentially fatal consequences--than engaging in any type of cruel immoral act, as long as there was no chance that someone might die as a result.

The fact that Lynch is a huge DI athlete and his alleged victim was a woman are obviously important facts. I never argued otherwise.

I've tried to offer hypotheticals that might shed some of this debate. I probably can't do much better than the one in this post. As I've said many times, intent is the key ingredient in moral culpability. Getting intoxicated doesn't absolve one from all responsibility for actions taken under the influence, but it's pretty telling that: (1) intoxication is a legal defense to any specific-intent crime; and (2) specific-intent crimes are generally punished much more severely than negligence-based transgressions.
 

greyhammer90

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The difference is that I'm not arguing for the other side of the logical pendulum.

It's obvious we're not going to agree on this so I'll let it drop. And for the record I agree that getting in the car buzzed is less morally wrong IMO than hitting a woman. But you were presenting it in this way that felt very principled, and structured, but logically it appeared shaky and very contingent on these facts alone. So basically I agreed with your conclusion, but not how you got there (through the idea that bad intent is always worse than "negligence" or "recklessness"). Anyway, good discussion. I love arguing with you guys.
 

Rhode Irish

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Whiskey on the significance of intent....

Lax and irishog on DUIs....

Couldn't agree more with you guys. You've hit on some pretty thoughtful and nuanced positions that people are usually intimidated out of making. Even just in agreeing with you guys, I feel obligated to say that in no way do I condone or encourage drunk driving and I wish that didn't even need to be said to make those arguments. Whiskey's argument in particular is applicable in a broad array of situations, not just with respect to DUIs.
 

Fbolt

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Q for the lawyers in this off-topic thread:

After completing field sobriety tests, is it acceptable to ask officer if you passed those tests and if so, decline the breathalyzer without earning yourself an automatic DUI/DWI?

I realize things differ on a state by state basis, but am curious.
 

johnnycando

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I would donkey punch Ronda Rousey.

Hell yeah! Me too.

Although I don't think you could faze that girl.

Not even with a foot long.

Sexy-Ronda-Rousey-Pictures-1.jpg
 
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IrishLax

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I'm actually glad you brought this up. I know it's almost taboo to say so, but the DWI/DUI laws have gotten ridiculous. And I say this as somebody very anti-drunk driving and as somebody who has seen lives destroyed by it. But the DUI industry in America has become a racket. It truly has. Again, I make no defense of driving while drunk, but the game has been rigged.

States have lowered the legal limit (sometimes due to pressure from the federal government withholding money to states until lowered), to where .08 is now considered intoxicated. A universal standard is applied to something that doesn't effect people universally. Hmmm, makes sense. VERY questionable methods are used in pulling over, questioning, and then field testing a suspect. Then the universal standard is placed on a test where the device used isn't extremely reliable. Refusal to take this test now results in automatic guilt in most states. I guess I find it strange that people our judicial system is based on the presumption of innocence, until guilt is proven. Yet in the DUI industry, the opposite is what happens-- guilty unless proven innocent. I wonder why the aclu and other advocacy groups don't bring this up?

I think the biggest reason people don't fight it is MADD. I appreciate MADD and have worked with them some over the years. But no politician or advocacy group is going to stand up to or in opposition against a mother who has lost a child to a drunk driver. But as Lax said, they are the ones steering the ship when it comes to DUI laws in our country. And statistics are manipulated or outright falsified against drivers who have been drinking.

I think the monetary issue is another reason for the current state of DUI laws. For some lawyers, this is the bread and butter of their practice. I am grateful that many states have closed closed some loopholes and have given mandatory sentencing for violators, but even still, I hear stories all the time about people spending $6k, $10k, $12k for a lawyer...for a traffic stop with mandatory guidelines. What the hell is the lawyer doing to "earn" that money?? Even lawyers not charging that much still earn considerable income from the DUI/DWI industry. I've have 2 friends in 2 different states who have recently told me that self-representation is the best way to go.

And then the fees and fines have become a cottage industry for many municipalities. The fees and fines paid for DUI's and DWI's adds quite a bit to the coffers.

So, bottom line, regardless of how I may feel about the offense itself, I still have a problem with laws that seriously hardship a person's professional, financial, and personal life based on vague circumstances, a not-totally reliable test based on a low universal standard for something that doesn't effect people universally, that lines the pockets of lawyers and local government offices, all crafted by a group of people we feel sympathetic toward.

I definitely think there is room in our country to be anti drunk driving, yet anti current-system-in-place.

Incredibly well put. Just to add on to this a little... something like 1 in 10 total arrests in the US are for DUI. Seriously. Something like 10% of ALL ARRESTS are for something that has a 1 in a million chance of doing significant harm.

Truly is just a racket.
 

gkIrish

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Incredibly well put. Just to add on to this a little... something like 1 in 10 total arrests in the US are for DUI. Seriously. Something like 10% of ALL ARRESTS are for something that has a 1 in a million chance of doing significant harm.

Truly is just a racket.

The funny thing is that DUI is one of the few crimes that people spend money to avoid. In other words, they pay for cabs or hotel rooms or whatever in order to not get caught driving above the limit. I can't think of another crime off the top of my head where that happens (besides like racketeering)
 
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The funny thing is that DUI is one of the few crimes that people spend money to avoid. In other words, they pay for cabs or hotel rooms or whatever in order to not get caught driving above the limit. I can't think of another crime off the top of my head where that happens (besides like racketeering)

I pay to avoid shoplifting.
 

NCDomer

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Incredibly well put. Just to add on to this a little... something like 1 in 10 total arrests in the US are for DUI. Seriously. Something like 10% of ALL ARRESTS are for something that has a 1 in a million chance of doing significant harm.

Truly is just a racket.

But at what intoxication level? .10 BAC isn't that big of a deal. But if half of those DUI arrest are for .15 BAC and up, then the odds of significant harm increase dramatically.

My bigger complaint about DUI laws are the future impact on offender lives. A dumb college decision ruins your job prospects significantly for years to come (unless you're a gifted athlete). I'm all for fining people for the offense and taking away driving privileges, but to label them as criminals without any actual accident is taking it too far.

But yeah, towns make a killing on DUIs. It's one of their biggest revenue generators.
 

stlnd01

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The funny thing is that DUI is one of the few crimes that people spend money to avoid. In other words, they pay for cabs or hotel rooms or whatever in order to not get caught driving above the limit. I can't think of another crime off the top of my head where that happens (besides like racketeering)

Kind of makes sense. In our auto-centric, alcohol-heavy culture, it is the crime that many people are most likely to be caught at.
Part of this is the very low BAC level, which means you could conceivably be arrested for DUI on account of a third beer at an after work happy hour. Part of it's the fact that driving by its nature a public act and there are police officers laying in wait to catch you (even if they just catch you rolling a stop sign). Part of it is the punishment that's far disproportionate to any potential payoff (unlike, say, cheating on your taxes)
The authorities have decided to make drunk driving "not worth it." And we respond rationally by taking a cab instead.
 
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stlnd01

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On Floyd v. Lynch, I think it's silly to try and compare crimes - real or alleged - as to which is "worse." (tho I'd generally agree with those who say the intentional crime of domestic violence is "worse" than the careless one of drunk driving).

What interests me as a fan of Notre Dame football is the response. Floyd used the incident to come back and try to be a better person. Lynch quit for the easier road. That's why I root for Floyd and shake my head at Lynch.
 

IrishLax

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But at what intoxication level? .10 BAC isn't that big of a deal. But if half of those DUI arrest are for .15 BAC and up, then the odds of significant harm increase dramatically.

My bigger complaint about DUI laws are the future impact on offender lives. A dumb college decision ruins your job prospects significantly for years to come (unless you're a gifted athlete). I'm all for fining people for the offense and taking away driving privileges, but to label them as criminals without any actual accident is taking it too far.

But yeah, towns make a killing on DUIs. It's one of their biggest revenue generators.

For sure, sadly I don't have the statistics for that. I wish I did. I don't know what the math says about .10 to .15 to .20. On one hand, it could increase dramatically... but even if it went up x100 (i.e. an impossible statistical extreme) it'd still be 1 in 10,000. But I entirely agree with your premise that there's a big difference between the "legal limit" and actually being drunk off your ass.

Really, if you think about it the MADD campaign of "buzzed driving is drunk driving" tells you all you need to know about how bullshit the whole thing is. Buzzed driving IS NOT drunk driving. A "buzzed" driver is still quite competent and often a safer driver than a completely sober elderly or handicapped driver... whereas a blackout drunk driver is a SERIOUS danger to themselves and society.

If I was a king of a country, here's how I'd do DUI laws.

1. You can't pull someone over unless you've seen them commit a moving violation. No checkpoints or other BS used today to perform a traffic stop.
2. Once you pull them over, to administer a breathalyzer they first must fail field sobriety tests. The field sobriety tests would not be bullshit tests like many utilized today.
3. My legal limit would be .10, and .10-.15 would be treated like a serious citation, but not a heinous criminal act. You'd lose driving privileges for a period and pay a hefty fine. The final reading would be taken via blood test after arrest... inaccurate breathalyzer readings would not be used.
4. At .15+ it would be treated similar to how DUIs are treated today, except with more streamlined "redemption" opportunity for first time offenders. Additionally, if a serious moving violation (i.e. accident, serious speeding, running a red light, etc.) occurred at this level of intoxication I'd slap an additional serious charge of some sort on top for endangering the public.
 

irishog77

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For sure, sadly I don't have the statistics for that. I wish I did. I don't know what the math says about .10 to .15 to .20. On one hand, it could increase dramatically... but even if it went up x100 (i.e. an impossible statistical extreme) it'd still be 1 in 10,000. But I entirely agree with your premise that there's a big difference between the "legal limit" and actually being drunk off your ass.

Really, if you think about it the MADD campaign of "buzzed driving is drunk driving" tells you all you need to know about how bullshit the whole thing is. Buzzed driving IS NOT drunk driving. A "buzzed" driver is still quite competent and often a safer driver than a completely sober elderly or handicapped driver... whereas a blackout drunk driver is a SERIOUS danger to themselves and society.

If I was a king of a country, here's how I'd do DUI laws.

1. You can't pull someone over unless you've seen them commit a moving violation. No checkpoints or other BS used today to perform a traffic stop.
2. Once you pull them over, to administer a breathalyzer they first must fail field sobriety tests. The field sobriety tests would not be bullshit tests like many utilized today.
3. My legal limit would be .10, and .10-.15 would be treated like a serious citation, but not a heinous criminal act. You'd lose driving privileges for a period and pay a hefty fine. The final reading would be taken via blood test after arrest... inaccurate breathalyzer readings would not be used.
4. At .15+ it would be treated similar to how DUIs are treated today, except with more streamlined "redemption" opportunity for first time offenders. Additionally, if a serious moving violation (i.e. accident, serious speeding, running a red light, etc.) occurred at this level of intoxication I'd slap an additional serious charge of some sort on top for endangering the public.

I could get behind something like this.

I will admit, I actually know very few people who drink and drive anymore (I think some of that is simply aging/maturity-- we don't a lot of the things at 30 that we did at 20), and I think the current industry is at least partially responsible for it. So throwing the entire system out the window isn't something I'm an advocate before. But something like you mentioned is along the lines.

Another crazy thing in this day and age of the DUI industry is how many people we all know with DUI's. I mean A TON of my buddies from high school and college (and present day friends too) have them. And it certainly has had an effect on employment for some. But personally, I don't have a problem with somebody having one on their record (2 or more-- eh, that can be a problem). And I literally don't know of anybody who holds a DUI against somebody, personally speaking. No, "OMG, he/she has a DUI??? GTFO!!! What a loser!"
 

Grahambo

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For sure, sadly I don't have the statistics for that. I wish I did. I don't know what the math says about .10 to .15 to .20. On one hand, it could increase dramatically... but even if it went up x100 (i.e. an impossible statistical extreme) it'd still be 1 in 10,000. But I entirely agree with your premise that there's a big difference between the "legal limit" and actually being drunk off your ass.

Really, if you think about it the MADD campaign of "buzzed driving is drunk driving" tells you all you need to know about how bullshit the whole thing is. Buzzed driving IS NOT drunk driving. A "buzzed" driver is still quite competent and often a safer driver than a completely sober elderly or handicapped driver... whereas a blackout drunk driver is a SERIOUS danger to themselves and society.

If I was a king of a country, here's how I'd do DUI laws.

1. You can't pull someone over unless you've seen them commit a moving violation. No checkpoints or other BS used today to perform a traffic stop.
2. Once you pull them over, to administer a breathalyzer they first must fail field sobriety tests. The field sobriety tests would not be bullshit tests like many utilized today.
3. My legal limit would be .10, and .10-.15 would be treated like a serious citation, but not a heinous criminal act. You'd lose driving privileges for a period and pay a hefty fine. The final reading would be taken via blood test after arrest... inaccurate breathalyzer readings would not be used.
4. At .15+ it would be treated similar to how DUIs are treated today, except with more streamlined "redemption" opportunity for first time offenders. Additionally, if a serious moving violation (i.e. accident, serious speeding, running a red light, etc.) occurred at this level of intoxication I'd slap an additional serious charge of some sort on top for endangering the public.

What specifically is bullshit about them? I've been involved in a few DUI arrests and these people couldn't perform the most basic of tasks as part of the FST.
 

IrishLax

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What specifically is bullshit about them? I've been involved in a few DUI arrests and these people couldn't perform the most basic of tasks as part of the FST.

That is a large percentage of people (conservatively about 35% to 10% depending on test) that will fail them completely sober. And this is looking at the three standardized most reliable ones recommended by NHTSA.

You're obviously familiar with them. My problem with the HGN test is that the actual administration of the test is inconsistent, and cops often drag your eyes out to a point where it naturally happens. If they say you fail, you have no recourse as it's not going to be visible on video what you did or did not do... whatever the cop says goes.

My problem with the other two tests are that you can "fail" by doing things that aren't really failing to execute what was asked of you if the cop wants to get you.

It's weird that I'm this impassioned about this stuff when I've never gotten a DUI much less gone through a traffic stop. And I don't have any family that's gotten a DUI. Or have anyone I really care about that's been affected by a DUI. But with my work with SADD coupled with law enforcement people I've talked to about DUIs I just don't think it's a fair system.
 

Whiskeyjack

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So basically I agreed with your conclusion, but not how you got there (through the idea that bad intent is always worse than "negligence" or "recklessness").

Our disagreement is probably attributable to different normative ethical theories. You and Emcee seem to be Consequentialists. Based on my Catholic understanding of sin, my argument is based on Virtue Ethics, which places major emphasis on intent.

Anyway, good discussion. I love arguing with you guys.

Amen. Love this board.
 
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