'11 FL DE Aaron Lynch (USF Transfer)

Irish Insanity

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Your analogy doesn't make sense. The question you need to ask yourself is whether beating a woman to death is more or less "evil" than killing someone with your vehicle because you drove drunk.

I think the question I want to know is would someone rather send their daughter off with someone who is driving under the influence or would they rather send them off with someone who is alleged to assault them.
 

Rack Em

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I think the question I want to know is would someone rather send their daughter off with someone who is driving under the influence or would they rather send them off with someone who is alleged to assault them.

A: Put them up for adoption because raising girls would be a terrible way to live.
 

IrishLax

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I think the question I want to know is would someone rather send their daughter off with someone who is driving under the influence or would they rather send them off with someone who is alleged to assault them.

Is neither an option?

But truthfully, if I was a father I'd be more comfortable with my daughter dating someone who had a DUI conviction than someone who had a history of people saying they knew of incidents where he assaulted women.

This is all kind of a moot discussion though, as it's all personal opinion and nothing happens in a vacuum. Greyhammer did a good job of pointing out how things are not black and white when dealing with abstract concepts like "character."
 

Whiskeyjack

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I think the question I want to know is would someone rather send their daughter off with someone who is driving under the influence or would they rather send them off with someone who is alleged to assault them.

That's not very relevant to the moral aspects of DUI v. Assault. As a father, I'd be answering your hypothetical based on which course is likely to harm my daughter less; not which of the two criminals is better morally justified. And there are simply too many variables involved in those situations to support the sort of point you're hoping to make.

But I'd much sooner put my daughter in a car with a drunk driver than send her off with a man who's going to physically abuse her. The latter is almost guaranteed to cause lasting psychological, if not also physical, harm. The former, statistically speaking, is not.
 

gkIrish

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I think the question I want to know is would someone rather send their daughter off with someone who is driving under the influence or would they rather send them off with someone who is alleged to assault them.

It's really difficult to answer a question like that because a DUI can be a 0.09 BAC which, while illegal, is not that serious IMO. I know I am personally capable of driving safely at such a level (although I don't). Floyd's was around 0.20 IIRC, which is obviously pretty high. So if you are asking me to decide whether I would want my daughter to be assaulted or if I would rather her get in the car with someone driving at 0.20 then I would probably pick the assault. But again, this question isn't really relevant because we are determining whether someone's character is bad. It's not about which act was more life-threatening.
 

greyhammer90

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Floyd's DUI was a victimless crime. Many of Lynch's alleged transgressions were not. Difficult to draw any kind of moral equivalency here.

Wait, so let me break this down:

Universe A: Floyd knowingly drives drunk, drives as careful as he can, needs to break suddenly, can't in time because of delayed reaction and kills someone.

Universe B: Same thing, except he doesn't need to break suddenly, goes home to sleep it off.

Universe B Floyd cannot morally be compared to domestic abuse because his crime was victimless, but A Floyd can?
 

Irish Insanity

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Then again, if my daughter doesn't cause herself to be assaulted maybe it won't happen. Completely kidding.
 

Whiskeyjack

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Wait, so let me break this down:

Universe A: Floyd knowingly drives drunk, drives as careful as he can, needs to break suddenly, can't in time because of delayed reaction and kills someone.

Universe B: Same thing, except he doesn't need to break suddenly, goes home to sleep it off.

Universe B Floyd cannot morally be compared to domestic abuse because his crime was victimless, but A Floyd can?

I didn't say "cannot". I argued that it's difficult to compare the morality of the two crimes.

This is why negligence and specific intent crimes are treated very differently most of the time. Living in a modern Western society means that one owes a "duty of care" to a lot of people. What that duty entails isn't often clear; and due to the number and varying complexity of these duties, virtually everyone is guilty of negligence at some point.

Specific intent crimes are different. They require "an evil mind". So I don't think it's a stretch to say that Lynch's alleged conduct was morally worse than Floyd's.
 

Emcee77

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Are we still talking about whether or not we would root for Aaron Lynch? Or am I Donny in the Big Lebowski?

We are (I think all) Chrstians and we LOVE redemption stories. At least I do. The seriousness of a person's mistakes doesn't so much impact whether I will root for them as how the person behaves after he makes them. I've read about convicted felons who were complete scumbags but have completely turned their lives around, and I'm ardently rooting for them to succeed. Floyd made a huge mistake that could have killed someone or even several people, but he had a reputation as a great guy who made a few isolated alcohol-fueled bad decisions and he worked hard to rehabilitate himself. Lynch hasn't worked hard to rehabilitate himself, that I'm aware of. I hope he does, but until he shows some signs of doing that I wouldn't say I am rooting for him.

Like I think Lax said, his reputation was that of a "complete asshole and douchebag." I'm not rooting for a guy like that. But I'm rooting for him to be less of an asshole and douchebag, in a very general way, as I hope every asshole, from Vladimir Putin to Aaron Lynch, becomes less of an asshole. Because I love redemption stories.
 
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greyhammer90

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I didn't say "cannot". I argued that it's difficult to compare the morality of the two crimes.

This is why negligence and specific intent crimes are treated very differently most of the time. Living in a modern Western society means that one owes a "duty of care" to a lot of people. What that duty entails isn't often clear; and due to the number and varying complexity of these duties, virtually everyone is guilty of negligence at some point.

Specific intent crimes are different. They require "an evil mind". So I don't think it's a stretch to say that Lynch's alleged conduct was morally worse than Floyd's.

I understand where your coming from (though i will say there is an intent -namely selfishness- to knowingly driving drunk that makes it different from forgetting to put out a Wet Floor sign). I just didn't like the phrase "victimless" used in a DD setting because it opens up a whole new bundle of inconsistencies.

Carry on.
 

Whiskeyjack

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I understand where your coming from (though i will say there is an intent -namely selfishness- to knowingly driving drunk that makes it different from forgetting to put out a Wet Floor sign). I just didn't like the phrase "victimless" used in a DD setting because it opens up a whole new bundle of inconsistencies.

And I understand where you're coming from. Fortunately, we don't require a victim in order to convict someone of DUI, and I have no problem with that at all.

But we're comparing two specific occurrences here. In Floyd's case, he was negligent, but no one was hurt. In Lynch's case, there were victims. I think that makes a difference in the moral calculus.
 

connor_in

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I just want to point out something on the allegation versus conviction thing.

Al Capone was convicted of contempt, tax evasion, and prohibition charges. He was alleged to have done many other things including bribery, assault, murder, and setting up murders.

Now I am DEFINITELY NOT saying that any of the people discussed above are anywhere near as bad as Al Capone. I am only using a well known extreme case to make a point. Simply, a conviction only means that the government was able to catch and prove something. I know people are NOT arguing that because something is an allegation only, does not mean it didn't happen. However, the fact that the government isn't able to prove something in a court of law does not mean an alleged crime is any less illegal than something they can prove beyond a reasonable doubt; it only means they couldn't convict. Thus, I believe an alleged crime can be worse than a proven one as a philosophical matter. The problem then becomes one of do you believe the allegation or not.
 

Emcee77

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And I understand where you're coming from. Fortunately, we don't require a victim in order to convict someone of DUI, and I have no problem with that at all.

But we're comparing two specific occurrences here. In Floyd's case, he was negligent, but no one was hurt. In Lynch's case, there were victims. I think that makes a difference in the moral calculus.

I don't know if I'm following this. I would not say Floyd was negligent. Driving drunk (he was drunk, more than double the legal limit) is gross recklessness. It's a huge risk to take for no good reason. It's going out onto South Quad, setting up aluminum cans on stools and taking target practice with your hunting rifle. I am not aware of anything Lynch has done that is even comparable. Did he take any action that could have killed someone?

Don't get me wrong, as I stated previously, I AM rooting for Floyd and I am NOT rooting for Lynch, but not because I think that Lynch's actions are morally worse than Floyd's. It's because Floyd's done more to redeem himself.
 
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I just want to point out something on the allegation versus conviction thing.

Al Capone was convicted of contempt, tax evasion, and prohibition charges. He was alleged to have done many other things including bribery, assault, murder, and setting up murders.

Now I am DEFINITELY NOT saying that any of the people discussed above are anywhere near as bad as Al Capone. I am only using a well known extreme case to make a point. Simply, a conviction only means that the government was able to catch and prove something. I know people are NOT arguing that because something is an allegation only, does not mean it didn't happen. However, the fact that the government isn't able to prove something in a court of law does not mean an alleged crime is any less illegal than something they can prove beyond a reasonable doubt; it only means they couldn't convict. Thus, I believe an alleged crime can be worse than a proven one as a philosophical matter. The problem then becomes one of do you believe the allegation or not.

Capone wasnt that bad of a person.

All he did was provide booze to people who wanted it and whack his enemies.
 

Whiskeyjack

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I don't know if I'm following this. I would not say Floyd was negligent. Driving drunk (he was drunk, more than double the legal limit) is gross recklessness. It's a huge risk to take for no good reason. It's going out onto South Quad, setting up aluminum cans on stools and taking target practice with your hunting rifle. I am not aware of anything Lynch has done that is even comparable. Did he take any action that could have killed someone?

From a moral perspective, crimes of negligence are categorically different than specific intent crimes. Criminal laws are not interested solely in justice; deterrence, for instance, justifies much harsher penalties for someone who commits extreme DUI than someone who commits a simple assault. But that harsher penalty doesn't mean that extreme DUI is morally worse than assault.
 

Emcee77

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From a moral perspective, crimes of negligence are categorically different than specific intent crimes. Criminal laws are not interested solely in justice; deterrence, for instance, justifies much harsher penalties for someone who commits extreme DUI than someone who commits a simple assault. But that harsher penalty doesn't mean that extreme DUI is morally worse than assault.

Of course not. If I said that, I didn't mean to. I don't think deterrence needs to come into play. It's the magnitude of the harm your conduct risks.

I'm not sure what kind of assaults we are talking about, but I don't think Lynch is accused of committing any life-threatening assaults.

When you drive while you are very drunk, you are knowingly taking a substantial and unjustifiable risk, as they say. You know that a) there will be other people on the roads, b) you are incapable of controlling your vehicle and avoiding them, and c) they could die if you hit them. You are not committing a crime of negligence. Negligence is causing injury by failing to meet a standard of care. You are doing something much worse.

I cannot understand how even a violent crime such as assault, if not life threatening, is morally worse than a crime like extreme DUI, which puts an indeterminate number of lives in jeopardy.
 
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greyhammer90

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From a moral perspective, crimes of negligence are categorically different than specific intent crimes. Criminal laws are not interested solely in justice; deterrence, for instance, justifies much harsher penalties for someone who commits extreme DUI than someone who commits a simple assault. But that harsher penalty doesn't mean that extreme DUI is morally worse than assault.

But we're not saying extreme DUI is morally worse than assault. You're saying that assault is morally worse than extreme DUI to the point that it's no contest. (I think?) That's where you're getting pushback. Some of us think the selfish nature of doing something for convenience that might kill someone is at least comparable with doing something that will 100% cause harm but is extremely unlikely to cause death.

This is what happens when there are too many lawyers/law students on one board.
 

Whiskeyjack

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I'm not sure what kind of assaults we are talking about, but I don't think Lynch is accused of committing any life-threatening assaults.

Lynch allegedly beat up a woman. If true, that's a much stronger indication of moral depravity than Floyd's DUI.

When you drive while you are very drunk, you are knowingly taking a substantial and unjustifiable risk, as they say. You know that a) there will be other people on the roads, b) you are incapable of controlling your vehicle and avoiding them, and c) they could die if you hit them.

There's the rub, from a moral stand point at least. People frequently do not realize how drunk they really are. Or, if they do realize how drunk they are, they may rationalize their behavior by noting that campus is just a couple miles north via surface streets, and the likelihood of causing serious harm is very low. I agree that if one gets behind the wheel of a car: (1) fully understanding how drunk he is; and (2) with callous disregard to the danger he will knowingly pose to others on the road, then there's serious moral culpability there. But that's very rarely the case.

You are not committing a crime of negligence. Negligence is causing injury by failing to meet a standard of care. You are doing something much worse.

DUI laws are obviously statutory, but they exist because driving drunk renders one unable to meet the duty of care owed to other drivers. In essence it's still a crime of negligence. Specific intent isn't an element of DUI because an "evil mind" is almost never present.

I cannot understand how even a violent crime such as assault, if not life threatening, is morally worse than a crime like extreme DUI, which puts an indeterminate number of lives in jeopardy.

The actual risk imposed on others varies greatly between individual drunk drivers. Some people can drive quite safely with a BAC of .10; others are unsafe after a single beer. The morality of the issue revolves around knowledge and intent, so it's difficult to make categorical assertions about the morality of DUI. But in Lynch's (alleged) case, it's almost never morally permissible for a 6'6'', 250+ lb man to physically assault a woman. And such actions do not happen absent a specific intent to harm the woman. So I'd argue that, absent some weird/ extreme circumstances, domestic abuse is almost always more morally culpable than DUI.

But we're not saying extreme DUI is morally worse than assault. You're saying that assault is morally worse than extreme DUI to the point that it's no contest. (I think?) That's where you're getting pushback. Some of us think the selfish nature of doing something for convenience that might kill someone is at least comparable with doing something that will 100% cause harm but is extremely unlikely to cause death.

I understand where you're coming from, but that's an extrinsic argument. Morality always revolves around an individual's intent, and given the nature of the two crimes at issue here (DUI v. domestic abuse), I feel pretty comfortable asserting that the latter is almost always morally worse than the former.
 

Emcee77

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I agree that if one gets behind the wheel of a car: (1) fully understanding how drunk he is; and (2) with callous disregard to the danger he will knowingly pose to others on the road, then there's serious moral culpability there. But that's very rarely the case.

I guess this is where we disagree. I think this is usually, almost always, the case.
 
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For most people isn't confidence one of the side effects of alcohol?

I don't think you can expect a drunk person, especially a young one, to be able to understand how drunk they are or the danger they pose.
 

irishog77

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Of course not. If I said that, I didn't mean to. I don't think deterrence needs to come into play. It's the magnitude of the harm your conduct risks.

I'm not sure what kind of assaults we are talking about, but I don't think Lynch is accused of committing any life-threatening assaults.

When you drive while you are very drunk, you are knowingly taking a substantial and unjustifiable risk, as they say. You know that a) there will be other people on the roads, b) you are incapable of controlling your vehicle and avoiding them, and c) they could die if you hit them. You are not committing a crime of negligence. Negligence is causing injury by failing to meet a standard of care. You are doing something much worse.

I cannot understand how even a violent crime such as assault, if not life threatening, is morally worse than a crime like extreme DUI, which puts an indeterminate number of lives in jeopardy.

I disagree with almost all of this.

but I don't think Lynch is accused of committing any life-threatening assaults.
Maybe, maybe not. What exactly is life-threatening? If he punched the girl one more time...two more times, would it be life-threatening then? Besides the fact that, as males, we are taught from the earliest of ages by parents, teachers, police, media, and virtually everybody in our society not to assault women, weighing 250+ lbs and assaulting somebody half your size is never seen as a decent a thing to do. In instances of assault, size sometimes does matter.

When you drive while you are very drunk, you are knowingly taking a substantial and unjustifiable risk, as they say. You know that a) there will be other people on the roads, b) you are incapable of controlling your vehicle and avoiding them

I'm not really sure before people drive drunk they "knowingly" do anything. Every time I, or somebody I know, have driven while drunk, I've never gone through a checklist like that. I simply wanted to get home, or wherever my destination was. Why are you incapable of controlling your vehicle and avoiding them? Because you're impaired. If you're impaired like this, as you say, then why can't the overall "thought process" to begin with be impaired? In other words, perhaps the driver was incapable of logical thought. You want to punish somebody for their impairment, yet make no mention of the impairment from the onset.

I cannot understand how even a violent crime such as assault, if not life threatening, is morally worse than a crime like extreme DUI, which puts an indeterminate number of lives in jeopardy

That's not really true. It's not as if a drunk driver would crash, kill someone, then continue on. There is a finite amount of harm a drunk driver can cause. Could he crash into a bus, killing more than one person? Absolutely. But the driver's car would be undriveable, or the driver himself would be injured to continue on to harm this indeterminate number of lives. What even is extreme DUI? Driving while some state or municipality has declared it to be extreme? Alcohol effects people differently and the side effects are determined by a number of factors. And in the case of Floyd, he thankfully didn't harm another person.



Look, I'm not defending driving while drunk. I'm not going to defend any bad decisions made while drunk. But there's a reason the Catholic Church considers drunkenness a serious sin. We forfeit our mind and reasoning. Any and all responsibility still remains with the individual for any decisions and potential consequences that may follow while drunk, but there are usually reasons we do stupid stuff while drunk-- we have an impaired brain.

What's the rationale behind assaulting a woman half your size?
 

IrishLax

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This is so off topic now, but w/e. This isn't me defending Floyd at all, this is just me taking a shot at drunk driving propaganda. I was heavily involved in SADD when I was in high school... and as a byproduct of my research learned that basically all drunk driving laws are bullshit pushed through by MADD. MADD is no different than any other special interest group with an agenda and lobbying arm. I don't blame them for being so impassioned because they lost a child or relative or someone they cared about to drunk driving... but they've lead a carefully constructed campaign of misinformation by carefully choosing which facts they present/highlight to make people think drunk driving is FAR more dangerous than it actually is. Everything from carefully curtailed studies to their misleading "drunk goggles" they give kids to simulate the experience of being over the limit... it's all bullshit.

First of all, a .19 is really bad. At this level, most people are what you would consider "hammered" and it's completely irresponsible to drive. However, it's not the same for each person, and while charts will make it sound like you're blackout drunk at this point there are tons of people who can function "normally" at a high BAC like this. And breathalyzers can be historically inaccurate. Never trust what someone "blows"... only trust a blood test.

Second, the odds of a drunk driver causing a fatality when they get behind the wheel are incredibly low. Only roughly 1 in 200 accidents (0.5%) result in a fatality. There are roughly 1.13 fatalities per 100,000,000 vehicle miles traveled including all conditions. On the highish side of averages, a drunk driver with 0.10 BAC is ~10 times more likely to get into a fatal accident than a normal 0.00 BAC driver. So... doing the math... a drunk driver with a 0.10 BAC has a 0.00001% chance of causing an auto fatality per mile driven. Or, to put it in more regular terms, if you have very long 10 mile drive home from a bar and are drunk you have a 1 in a million chance of being in a fatal accident. How exactly is that extremely dangerous/reckless? Those are pretty good odds, and in many professions... like construction... are considered simply acceptable daily risk. You have a MUCH higher probability of fatality in most cities simply walking around late at night then getting behind the wheel "dangerously" drunk.

Last but not least, a "normal" driver with a .10 BAC is safer than an elderly driver with a 0.00 BAC. If drunk driving is truly so dangerous and such a scourge that it needs to taken incredibly seriously and harshly punished... then why do we permit 70+ year old people to drive at all? They are, statistically, much more likely to kill someone on the road than an "average" driver who is above the legal limit.

Just some food for thought.
 
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Emcee77

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Maybe, maybe not. What exactly is life-threatening? If he punched the girl one more time...two more times, would it be life-threatening then? Besides the fact that, as males, we are taught from the earliest of ages by parents, teachers, police, media, and virtually everybody in our society not to assault women, weighing 250+ lbs and assaulting somebody half your size is never seen as a decent a thing to do. In instances of assault, size sometimes does matter.

Agreed. I don't know the facts of the alleged assault Lynch committed. I can certainly imagine an assault that is morally worse than or morally equivalent to an act of drunk driving. I am trying to compare an assault that was manifestly not life-threatening (a smack, a push, etc.) to driving while extremely drunk, like 0.20 BAC, because I thought the point was that assault is always or almost always morally worse than drunk driving. I disagree with that proposition, but I do not necessarily think that the reverse is true, i.e., that drunk driving is always worse than assault. You could come up with facts where the two are similar.

I'm not really sure before people drive drunk they "knowingly" do anything. Every time I, or somebody I know, have driven while drunk, I've never gone through a checklist like that. I simply wanted to get home, or wherever my destination was. Why are you incapable of controlling your vehicle and avoiding them? Because you're impaired. If you're impaired like this, as you say, then why can't the overall "thought process" to begin with be impaired? In other words, perhaps the driver was incapable of logical thought. You want to punish somebody for their impairment, yet make no mention of the impairment from the onset.

Isn't this obvious?? You make the decision not to drive while you are sober. You plan not to drive, then stick to the plan. If you can't do that, you should not be drinking. Of course a drunk person can't be expected to reason properly. That in no way diminishes his culpability for driving drunk, imo. We cannot live in a society where people evade any responsibility for their actions by claiming to have had a few too many drinks. IMO, drinking only makes you more culpable, not less. If you cannot prevent yourself from engaging in risky behavior while drinking, DO NOT DRINK.

That's not really true. It's not as if a drunk driver would crash, kill someone, then continue on. There is a finite amount of harm a drunk driver can cause. Could he crash into a bus, killing more than one person? Absolutely. But the driver's car would be undriveable, or the driver himself would be injured to continue on to harm this indeterminate number of lives. What even is extreme DUI? Driving while some state or municipality has declared it to be extreme? Alcohol effects people differently and the side effects are determined by a number of factors. And in the case of Floyd, he thankfully didn't harm another person.

I think this is mostly beside the point. If you drive extremely drunk (I do think it was clear in context what that meant ... as drunk as Floyd was, about .20 BAC), you are risking causing a car accident in which an indeterminate number of people (2? 3? 4? 5?) might die. Nine or ten thousand people in this country die every year from alcohol related accidents. All the data says that it's a real, substantial risk. If you smack someone with an open hand, no one will die, barring a freak "eggshell skull" situation.

Look, I'm not defending driving while drunk. I'm not going to defend any bad decisions made while drunk. But there's a reason the Catholic Church considers drunkenness a serious sin. We forfeit our mind and reasoning. Any and all responsibility still remains with the individual for any decisions and potential consequences that may follow while drunk, but there are usually reasons we do stupid stuff while drunk-- we have an impaired brain.

You may not have intended to, but you do seem to be saying that we are less culpable for bad decisions made while drunk. I simply cannot and do not accept this. I honestly find this point of view astonishing. As I said above, if you cannot prevent yourself from engaging in risky behavior while drinking, I implore you to choose not to drink. It is absolutely no excuse and diminishes your culpability not one iota, to the extent that you VOLUNTARILY chose to get drunk.

And it's not a holier-than-thou thing. I've driven drunk before. But I haven't done it in years, because as an adult I believe that the risk is never justifiable. Ever.

That's not to say that hitting a woman is ever justifiable. Of course it isn't. But, imo, the completely unjustified risk of killing someone by driving drunk makes that act worse than unjustifiably hitting someone, provided that the force of the hit is not so great that there is any real risk of death.

I'm getting worked up so I think this will be my last post on this.
 
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gkIrish

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Can someone "in the know" just post what the alleged act was so we can stop debating something with no real context whatsoever. There's really no reason I can think of to keep it private so long as we keep saying "alleged."

At a minimum can a brother get a PM?
 

Whiskeyjack

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Agreed. I don't know the facts of the alleged assault Lynch committed. I can certainly imagine an assault that is morally worse than or morally equivalent to an act of drunk driving. I am trying to compare an assault that was manifestly not life-threatening (a smack, a push, etc.) to driving while extremely drunk, like 0.20 BAC, because I thought the point was that assault is always or almost always morally worse than drunk driving. I disagree with that proposition, but I do not necessarily think that the reverse is true, i.e., that drunk driving is always worse than assault. You could come up with facts where the two are similar.

To clarify, my references to "assault" were really to someone of Lynch's stature beating up on a woman; not something as inconsequential as a smack or a push.

Isn't this obvious?? You make the decision not to drive while you are sober. You plan not to drive, then stick to the plan. If you can't do that, you should not be drinking. Of course a drunk person can't be expected to reason properly. That in no way diminishes his culpability for driving drunk, imo. Frankly, I find your suggestion that it does outrageous.

Moral culpability != legal culpability. Wouldn't you agree that there's a massive moral difference between killing someone unintentionally due to the impaired operation of a vehicle vs. murdering that person in cold blood? Our criminal laws certainly draw that distinction, since the penalties involved for 1st Degree Murder are far harsher than Vehicular Manslaughter.

We cannot live in a society where people evade any responsibility for their actions by claiming to have had a few too many drinks.

No one is implying that we can or should. But as I mentioned before, our laws are not concerned solely with justice. We arrest and prosecute DUI offenders mostly for deterrence, and not because those people have committed an evil act.

IMO, drinking only makes you more culpable, not less.

I assume you'd agree that moral culpability hinges on knowledge and intent. How can the involvement of an addictive mind-altering substance increase one's moral culpability? Again, no one here is suggesting that intoxication should be a legal defense to statutory and negligence-based crimes.

I think this is all beside the point. If you drive drunk, you are risking causing a car accident in which an indeterminate number (2? 3? 4? 5?) might die. Nine or ten thousand people in this country die every year from alcohol related accidents. All the data says that it's a real, substantial risk. If you smack someone with an open hand, no one will die, barring a freak "eggshell skull" situation.

See LAX's post above. Are the elderly just as morally culpable when they get behind the wheel? Because many of them are an even bigger danger than your average drunk driver. There are simply too many factors involved to categorically state "DRUNK (how drunk?) DRIVING (how far/ fast?) = MORAL DEVIANCE".

You may not have intended to, but you are absolutely saying that a person who drives drunk is less culpable than a person who assaults a woman. I simply cannot and do not accept this. I honestly find this point of view astonishing.

You can't conceive of such a scenario? Consider a guy who feels a little buzzed (would blow a 0.9), but still completely in control of his facilities gets behind the wheel and drives less than two miles along deserted country roads to his home without incident. Then consider his neighbor who was home beating the tar of his poor wife. The first guy is technically guilty of DUI. You think he's more morally culpable than his neighbor?
 

Emcee77

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I assume you'd agree that moral culpability hinges on knowledge and intent. How can the involvement of an addictive mind-altering substance increase one's moral culpability? Again, no one here is suggesting that intoxication should be a legal defense to statutory and negligence-based crimes.

But the decision to drink, which you know will impair your decision-making, is a voluntary choice. I think that has to be taken into account in the moral calculus. Like I said in my previous post, if you can't prevent yourself from engaging in risky behavior while drinking, you should not be drinking.

Now, Lax may be right that the risk of injuring someone by driving drunk is much less than I think it is. If so, count me as one of the ones brainwashed by MADD, lol. But I have to assume until I see the "MADD - Debunked!" documentary that drunk driving is a really dangerous activity.

You can't conceive of such a scenario? Consider a guy who feels a little buzzed (would blow a 0.9), but still completely in control of his facilities gets behind the wheel and drives less than two miles along deserted country roads to his home without incident. Then consider his neighbor who was home beating the tar of his poor wife. The first guy is technically guilty of DUI. You think he's more morally culpable than his neighbor?

Ha, of course you are right. The part of my post you are responding too was a copy/paste error, which I've corrected.

Basically, I think I get what you are saying, Whiskey, but I am having trouble accepting the view that we are less culpable for things we do while drunk, to whatever extent we voluntarily got drunk.
 
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Irish8248

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Pssh why am I reading over my notes when I can get a more interesting synopsis of law from IE ... negligence, guilty minds, strict liability, eggshell victims ... we got it all lol. Anyone care to dabble in TPB or covenants running with the land?
 
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