Government Spying on Millions (Verizon)

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Buster Bluth

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Y'all mothereffers need Dan Carlin.

And a copy of the Constitution and a thorough history of Richard Nixon, J Edgar Hoover, etc.

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Bogtrotter07

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I kind of agree with all of you!

Except this guy is a lot of things but a low level know it all is not one. I dealt with guys with IQ's off the chart, and actual aptitudes and skills that put them on the fringe of reality, for a living. I managed them. There are things different about this one.

But I still maintain that this guy pushed whatever he pushed, for whatever reason he pushed it, and then had a call to Jesus meeting with someone he trusted, woke up to the situation, and found out he was about to be eliminated entirely, then formulated this plan, (from the release of data to the stranding in Russia.)

That is all I can think of that speaks to the dangerous incompleteness of the plan, and the safety he has enjoyed.
 

Fbolt

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Bogs-According to you, you're only 1 or 2 degrees separated from anyone who is an expert in any issue or topic that comes up on this board.

Attention waning....
 
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Bogtrotter07

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Bogs-According to you, you're only 1 or 2 degrees separated from anyone who is an expert in any issue or topic that comes up on this board.

Attention waning....

I don't get the vitriol. A dozen years ago or so I managed up to 23 computer nerds at a time. All I said is that based upon that management experience, he doesn't remind me of the type, so much as I wouldn't have expected him to make some of the points he did.

He also laid some things out there that he would have been foolish to say if he didn't belied he could prove them. And he didn't lay them out in the self aggrandizing fashion I would expect someone who was making that up would trap themselves with. He kind of admitted his mistakes, and shortcomings, and didn't appear to have a grudge against any one group. Brian Williams, (ND graduate I believe), tried to goad him into some kind situation a number of times where he would have revealed deceit and a personal agenda, and I didn't see it.

Remember, the smarter the guy the better the liar. The better the liar, the more easily he is trapped!

PS. I just met a guy that was attached to the First Air Cav in the Central Highlands in 65-66. He served with Moore and Crandall, (they made the movie We Were Soldiers about one of the battles he flew over.) At that time we had no idea of the tunnels that were built for the French-Indochina war, twenty years earlier. He still has nightmares. I took two pages of notes, with his permission. So there is another one.
 
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Grahambo

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Government Spying on Millions (Verizon)

I don't get the vitriol. A dozen years ago or so I managed up to 23 computer nerds at a time. All I said is that based upon that management experience, he doesn't remind me of the type, so much as I wouldn't have expected him to make some of the points he did.



He also laid some things out there that he would have been foolish to say if he didn't belied he could prove them. And he didn't lay them out in the self aggrandizing fashion I would expect someone who was making that up would trap themselves with. He kind of admitted his mistakes, and shortcomings, and didn't appear to have a grudge against any one group. Brian Williams, (ND graduate I believe), tried to goad him into some kind situation a number of times where he would have revealed deceit and a personal agenda, and I didn't see it.



Remember, the smarter the guy the better the liar. The better the liar, the more easily he is trapped!



PS. I just met a guy that was attached to the First Air Cav in the Central Highlands in 65-66. He served with Moore and Crandall, (they made the movie We Were Soldiers about one of the battles he flew over.) At that time we had no idea of the tunnels that were built for the French-Indochina war, twenty years earlier. He still has nightmares. I took two pages of notes, with his permission. So there is another one.


And there are those that have work experience in that career atmosphere and dealing with people who are/were in the exact type of job he was in. There are those who truly understand what his role was behind the scenes and what he was actually capable of. I can point out his lies and what's crap.

He took a route he most certainly did not need to take. There are things setup to bring attention to areas of concern and they work; I've personally seen it.

He made his bed and can now sleep in it.

EDIT: That is one of my favorite movies. I don't think I've seen it without tears in my eyes.



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Whiskeyjack

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From Newsweek, Most Americans Think Snowden Did the Right Thing:

Nearly a year after Edward Snowden first leaked classified documents revealing the extent of National Security Agency surveillance programs, more than half of employed Americans believe he was in the right, according to a survey commissioned by cloud storage service Tresorit.

The survey found that 55 percent of respondents think Snowden did the right thing in exposing PRISM, the mass data-mining program, while another 29 percent believe he was in the wrong, and 16 percent endorse neither statement. Of Snowden’s supporters, 80 percent said he exposed constitutional violations.

Eighty-two percent of respondents said they still believe corporate information is being monitored by the U.S. government, and 51 percent said their employer has taken steps to make sure corporate files are secure.

Research firm YouGov carried out the study by surveying more than a thousand “employed American adults.”

Thursday, June 5, marks one year since the first of Snowden’s leaks were made public by the media, though national interest hasn’t waned much since then. Edward Snowden still captures national attention, as his NBC interview last week demonstrated, and his revelations have helped spearhead an entire subset of media focus on NSA spying and surveillance programs.

Snowden himself, of course, remains well outside U.S. borders, where he will remain, barring capture or some sort of a deal.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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And there are those that have work experience in that career atmosphere and dealing with people who are/were in the exact type of job he was in. There are those who truly understand what his role was behind the scenes and what he was actually capable of. I can point out his lies and what's crap.

He took a route he most certainly did not need to take. There are things setup to bring attention to areas of concern and they work; I've personally seen it.

He made his bed and can now sleep in it.

EDIT: That is one of my favorite movies. I don't think I've seen it without tears in my eyes.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Mine too! (favorite movies.)

Tell me more about the route, and setups if you can I would like to learn what I am missing. Thanks!
 

ResLife Hero

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Snowden says NSA workers routinely share your nude photos <a href="http://t.co/Kd3VS490Bi">http://t.co/Kd3VS490Bi</a> <a href="http://t.co/osDfOmOSLY">pic.twitter.com/osDfOmOSLY</a></p>— David Nelson (@DavidNelsonNews) <a href="https://twitter.com/DavidNelsonNews/statuses/489862217521586176">July 17, 2014</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

I mean for every gem they must see a lot of ugly people.
 

Fbolt

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Everyone is looking for their 15 minutes. I hope the news spread features them in leg irons.
 

Whiskeyjack

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Foreign Policy's Stephen M. Walt just published an article titled "The Big Counterterrorism Counterfactual: Is the NSA actually making us worse at fighting terrorism?"

The head of the British electronic spy agency GCHQ, Robert Hannigan, created a minor flap last week in an article he wrote for the Financial Times. In effect, Hannigan argued that more robust encryption procedures by private Internet companies were unwittingly aiding terrorists such as the Islamic State (IS) or al Qaeda, by making it harder for organizations like the NSA and GCHQ to monitor online traffic. The implication was clear: The more that our personal privacy is respected and protected, the greater the danger we will face from evildoers.

It's a serious issue, and democracies that want to respect individual privacy while simultaneously keeping citizens safe are going to have to do a much better job of reassuring us that vast and (mostly) secret surveillance capabilities overseen by unelected officials such as Hannigan won't be abused. I tend to favor the privacy side of the argument, both because personal freedoms are hard to get back once lost, but also because there's not much evidence that these surveillance activities are making us significantly safer. They seem to be able to help us track some terrorist leaders, but there's a lively debate among scholars over whether tracking and killing these guys is an effective strategy. The fear of being tracked also forces terrorist organizations to adopt less efficient communications procedures, but it doesn't seem to prevent them from doing a fair bit of harm regardless.

So here's a wild counterfactual for you to ponder: What would the United States, Great Britain, and other wealthy and powerful nations do if they didn't have these vast surveillance powers? What would they do if they didn't have armed drones, cruise missiles, or other implements of destruction that can make it remarkably easy (and in the short-term, relatively cheap) to target anyone they suspect might be a terrorist? Assuming that there were still violent extremists plotting various heinous acts, what would these powerful states do if the Internet was there but no one knew how to spy on it?

For starters, they'd have to rely more heavily on tried-and-true counterterrorism measures: infiltrating extremist organizations and flipping existing members, etc., to find out what they were planning, head attacks off before they occurred, and eventually roll up organization themselves. States waged plenty of counterterrorism campaigns before the Internet was invented, and while it can be difficult to infiltrate such movements and find their vulnerable points, it's not exactly an unknown art. If we couldn't spy on them from the safety of Fort Meade, we'd probably be doing a lot more of this.

Second, if we didn't have all these expensive high-tech capabilities, we might spend a lot more time thinking about how to discredit and delegitimize the terrorists' message, instead of repeatedly doing things that help them make their case and recruit new followers. Every time the United States goes and pummels another Muslim country -- or sends a drone to conduct a "signature strike" -- it reinforces the jihadis' claim that the West has an insatiable desire to dominate the Arab and Islamic world and no respect for Muslim life. It doesn't matter if U.S. leaders have the best of intentions, if they genuinely want to help these societies, or if they are responding to a legitimate threat; the crude message that drones, cruise missiles, and targeted killings send is rather different.

If we didn't have all these cool high-tech hammers, in short, we'd have to stop treating places like Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, and Syria as if they were nails that just needed another pounding, and we might work harder at marginalizing our enemies within their own societies. To do that, we would have to be building more effective partnerships with authoritative sources of legitimacy within these societies, including religious leaders. Our failure to do more to discredit these movements is perhaps the single biggest shortcoming of the entire war on terror, and until that failure is recognized and corrected, the war will never end.

Third, and somewhat paradoxically, if we didn't have drones and the NSA, we'd have to think more seriously about boots on the ground, at least in some places. But having to think harder about such decisions might be a good thing, because it would force the United States (or others) to decide which threats were really serious and which countries really mattered. It might even lead to the conclusion that any sort of military intervention is counterproductive. As we've seen over the past decade, what the NSA, CIA, and Special Ops Command do is in some ways too easy: It just doesn't cost that much to add a few more names to the kill list, to vacuum up a few more terabytes of data, or to launch a few more drones in some new country, and all the more so when it's done under the veil of secrecy.

I'm not saying that our current policy is costless or that special operations aren't risky; my point is that such activities are still a lot easier to contemplate and authorize than a true "boots on the ground" operation. By making it easier, however, the capabilities make it easier for our leaders to skirt the more fundamental questions about interests and strategy. It allows them to "do something," even when what is being done won't necessarily help.

Lastly, if U.S. leaders had to think harder about where to deploy more expensive resources, they might finally start thinking about the broader set of U.S. and Western policies that have inspired some of these movements in the first place. Movements like IS, al Qaeda, al-Nusra Front, al-Shabab, or the Taliban are in some ways indigenous movements arising from local circumstances, but they did not spring up out of nowhere and the United States (and other countries) bear some (though not all) blame for their emergence and growth. To say this is neither to defend nor justify violent extremism, nor to assert that all U.S. policies are wrong; it is merely to acknowledge that there is a causal connection between some of what we do and some of the enemies we face.

But if some of the things the United States (or its allies) is doing are making it unpopular in certain parts of the world, and if some of that unpopularity gets translated into violent extremism that forces us to spend hundreds of billions of dollars trying to protect ourselves, then maybe we ought to ask ourselves if every single one of those policies makes sense and is truly consistent with U.S. interests and values. And if not, then maybe we ought to change some of them, if only to take some steam out of the extremist enterprise.

What I'm suggesting, in short, is that the "surveil and strike" mentality that has dominated the counterterrorism effort (and which is clearly reflected in Hannigan's plea to let Big Brother -- oops, I mean the NSA and GCHQ -- keep its eyes on our communications) is popular with government officials because it's relatively easy, plays to our technological strengths, and doesn't force us to make any significant foreign-policy changes or engage in any sort of self-criticism at all. If we can solve the terrorist problem by throwing money at it, and enriching some defense contractors and former government officials in the process, what's not to like?

To be clear: I'm not suggesting we dismantle the NSA, fire all our cryptographers, and revert to Cordell Hull's quaint belief that "gentlemen [or ladies] do not read each other's mail." But until we see more convincing evidence that the surveillance of the sort Hannigan was defending has really and truly kept a significant number of people safer from foreign dangers, I'm going to wonder if we aren't overemphasizing these activities because they are relatively easy for us, and because they have a powerful but hard-to-monitor constituency in Washington and London. In short, we're just doing what comes naturally, instead of doing what might be more effective.
 

Fbolt

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quick review WJ, I did not read fully-what I got, at least partially was, everyone wants to know. Policies could be changed to prevent hate (I agree with the 2nd). I will say, that in the many places I have been, people enjoy hating the Americans. Makes them feel better about their own shitty existence. re: wanting to know:

what if, and this is extremely reasonable IMO, we (Allies) have info that thwarted a plot. However, to expose the plot publicly, which is what everyone wants-would enable the bad guys to determine how the Allies received that information?

If you want to know, join the establishment and try and change it from the inside. always simple (and without any consequence) to criticize from the outside. see kelly's game plan, van gorder, golson, rees.

2 cents
 

Ndaccountant

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An agency of the U.S. Justice Department is gathering data from thousands of cell phones, including both criminal suspects and innocent Americans, by using fake communications towers on airplanes, the Wall Street Journal reported on Thursday.

The program run by the U.S. Marshals Service began operations in 2007 and uses Cessna planes flying from at least five major airports and covering most of the U.S. population, the newspaper said, citing people familiar with the operations.

The planes use devices made by Boeing Co that mimic the cell phone towers used by major telecommunications companies and trick mobile phones into revealing their unique registration data, the report said.

The devices, nicknamed "dirtboxes," can collect information from tens of thousands of cell phones in a single flight, which occur on a regular basis, according to those with knowledge of the program, the Journal said.

U.S. using fake cellphone towers on planes to gather data: WSJ | Reuters
 

Whiskeyjack

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quick review WJ, I did not read fully-what I got, at least partially was, everyone wants to know. Policies could be changed to prevent hate (I agree with the 2nd). I will say, that in the many places I have been, people enjoy hating the Americans. Makes them feel better about their own shitty existence. re: wanting to know:

The thrust of the article linked above is not the privacy v. security debate that has dominated this thread so far. It's about why our government relies so heavily on high tech "solutions" in its counter-terrorism policy-- because they're relatively easy, inexpensive, and politically feasible. But choosing this path of least resistance may be preventing us from engaging in much more effective counter-terrorism policies, and from assessing the true costs and benefits of our current policies.

For instance, it's pretty easy for us to locate targets via their electronic communications and then send out a drone to assassinate them. No boots on the ground, no time-consuming development of human intelligence assets, etc. But it's not easy for us to minimize civilian casualties that way. So when the drone strike ends up killing a bunch of women and children at a wedding party in rural Pakistan, there's a very good chance that the "blow-back" against American interests there will wipe out any benefit we might realize from taking out that target. But this whole process is so cheap and easy for us that we're able to avoid that crucial sort of analysis entirely.

I agree with you that a lot of people overseas are going to hate America regardless of what we do. That comes with being an imperial power. But there is an undeniable causal link between some of our policies overseas, and the sorts of extremist groups that keep us up at night. And I question whether the benefit America is realizing from those policies truly outweighs the cost to us.

what if, and this is extremely reasonable IMO, we (Allies) have info that thwarted a plot. However, to expose the plot publicly, which is what everyone wants-would enable the bad guys to determine how the Allies received that information?

It's possible, but based on the evidence we have, that's not actually the case:

However, our review of the government’s claims about the role that NSA “bulk” surveillance of phone and email communications records has had in keeping the United States safe from terrorism shows that these claims are overblown and even misleading. An in-depth analysis of 225 individuals recruited by al-Qaeda or a like-minded group or inspired by al-Qaeda’s ideology, and charged in the United States with an act of terrorism since 9/11, demonstrates that traditional investigative methods, such as the use of informants, tips from local communities, and targeted intelligence operations, provided the initial impetus for investigations in the majority of cases, while the contribution of NSA’s bulk surveillance programs to these cases was minimal. Indeed, the controversial bulk collection of American telephone metadata, which includes the telephone numbers that originate and receive calls, as well as the time and date of those calls but not their content, under Section 215 of the USA PATRIOT Act, appears to have played an identifiable role in initiating, at most, 1.8 percent of these cases. NSA programs involving the surveillance of non-U.S. persons outside of the United States under Section 702 of the FISA Amendments Act played a role in 4.4 percent of the terrorism cases we examined, and NSA surveillance under an unidentified authority played a role in 1.3 percent of the cases we examined.

Traditional counter-terrorism policies get the job done. Dragnet-style domestic spying doesn't.
 
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phgreek

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The thrust of the article linked above is not the privacy v. security debate that has dominated this thread so far. It's about why our government relies so heavily on high tech "solutions" in its counter-terrorism policy-- because they're relatively easy, inexpensive, and politically feasible. But choosing this path of least resistance may be preventing us from engaging in much more effective counter-terrorism policies, and from assessing the true costs and benefits of our current policies.

For instance, it's pretty easy for us to locate targets via their electronic communications and then send out a drone to assassinate them. No boots on the ground, no time-consuming development of human intelligence assets, etc. But it's not easy for us to minimize civilian casualties that way. So when the drone strike ends up killing a bunch of women and children at a wedding party in rural Pakistan, there's a very good chance that the "blow-back" against American interests there will wipe out any benefit we might realize from taking out that target. But this whole process is so cheap and easy for us that we're able to avoid that crucial sort of analysis entirely.

I agree with you that a lot of people overseas are going to hate America regardless of what we do. That comes with being an imperial power. But there is an undeniable causal link between some of our policies overseas, and the sorts of extremist groups that keep us up at night. And I question whether the benefit America is realizing from those policies truly outweighs the cost to us.



It's possible, but based on the evidence we have, that's not actually the case:



Traditional counter-terrorism policies get the job done. Dragnet-style domestic spying doesn't.

Hard to argue the point regarding the reliance upon the "easy" solution ... BUT...a re-org won't fix this.

IMO...Thie human intel part is really not in our DNA anymore...we are far too long down the current evolutionary path...the last time we had human intel to speak of was late 80s early 90s. The funding required gagged folks and it was largely killed. And really, just because we say we have people in that game...it is not the same...we have technology enablers in that game...not folks truly practicing the craft...to any real extent.

It is my belief we cannot fix this...as it is too far gone, and no one has the political will to do what needs done here...same with the IRS, which is seriously broken to where "apolitical" isn't even present much less a fundamental value...you can't fix that...you need to kill it, and create something else. Same goes here...when the culture has formed around things that do not work, its better to kill the org, and start over...but we won't.
 

dshans

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Sure, sure: stir the pot. Toss a bit of chum overboard. Poke the gator in the snout. Put your head in the lion's mouth. Shine the klieg light on my nefarious plan.



I disseminate my devious, dastardly and destructive plots by way of cryptic and absurd posts on Irish Envy.

Better watch your back ...



Is it mere coincidence that, when attempting to post this, I was "greeted" with "...You Are Not Connected to the Internet?"

Huh, huh, huh???
 
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Bogtrotter07

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Need to see this :

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/XEVlyP4_11M" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 
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