A Song of Ice and Fire (Spoilers! Only enter if you have read all books)

[phork]

On Lost everyone seemed to know who they were talking about in regards to the Others. The Others is less ominous than White Walkers and I believe was created out of a need for the TV writers to create Good/Bad side.

 

[IrishLion]

Stannis has eaten shit his entire life (Ned getting the credit for liberating Storm's End, younger brothers hoarding glory, etc.) The bigger reason I support him is because he seems to be the only one besides Jon Snow who gives a shit that demon beasties from Canada are about to cross the border and lay waste to all of Westeros (or whatever it is they plan on doing). He answered the call from The Watch, so he's the only one actually BEHAVING like a king, which in this case required a detour from the WOTFK to actually do some protecting of the realm.

I see where you're coming from, and I like Stannis for the same reason, but it could also be argued that Melisandre and Davos deserve the credit for going to the aid of the Night's Watch.

Also, wasn't it more due to the fact that he had nothing else to do? He needed to go to the Wall and battle the Wildlings because they were the only force he could hope to defeat in battle. He needed to stay "active" in the WOTFK... so it was less of a detour/giving a shit and moreso of an act of desperation IMO.

- Stannis gets to keep claiming he's king because he's "protecting the realm" (though this was the only battle he could actually hope to win)
- Melisandre recognizes the threat of the Great Other, and so pushes him that way
- Davos sees a threat to the land, and acts accordingly, pushing him that way as well (but for different reasons)

 

[Whiskeyjack]

All magic comes with a price. I'm pretty sure Bran ate Jojen, and we know the Old Gods demanded human sacrifice from the First Men. That seems pretty evil to me. I don't think "ice versus fire" will be righteous versus evil, but rather one evil faction versus another, laying waste to everything in between.

I'd be OK with that, too. Would be very much in-line with Martin's personal philosophy.

But again, what you see (initially) is very rarely what you get in Westeros. Thus far the Others have been portrayed as stereotypical fantasy baddies, which makes me think they're going to turn out to be anything but that. There are myriad indications that things north of the Wall (and even the Wall itself) are not as simple as they seem.

Regarding Martin's "magic", he set out to make it rare, frightening and horribly costly (usually in terms of blood/life) to employ. From a Christian perspective, that might make it seem like both sides, insofar as they're "magical", are really evil, though I doubt Martin sees it that way. He invites us to sympathize with Dany and to view her dragons as Westeros' only hope from the frozen horde of the Great Other. I expect there to be a major reversal in TWoW or ADoS where we realize that Dany/ Rh'lor is the real danger, and that the "North" is really fighting for balance, nature, etc.

 

[wizards8507]

I see where you're coming from, and I like Stannis for the same reason, but it could also be argued that Melisandre and Davos deserve the credit for going to the aid of the Night's Watch.

Don't get me wrong, I effing love Davos (possibly my favorite character) and Mel (I hope we get more POV from her), but neither of them will ever "rule" anything so my "support" in that regard goes to Stannis.

- Stannis gets to keep claiming he's king because he's "protecting the realm" (though this was the only battle he could actually hope to win)

His odds are going to improve greatly with the looming support of the Iron Bank behind him. He's the only one who plans to honor the crown's debts. I think this will prove to be Tywin's Great Folly. Anything we see harped on over and over and over again has been thrown back in our faces: guest right, Stark in Winterfell, etc. I think this Lannister NOT paying his debts will have dire consequences for the house. (I also think the Eyrie will fall, but that's neither here nor there.)

 

[IrishLax]

All magic comes with a price. I'm pretty sure Bran ate Jojen, and we know the Old Gods demanded human sacrifice from the First Men. That seems pretty evil to me. I don't think "ice versus fire" will be righteous versus evil, but rather one evil faction versus another, laying waste to everything in between.

Bran ate Jojen!?!?!!? DAMN! I just Googled that... crazy dude, crazy............

 

[mgriff]

Bran ate Jojen!?!?!!? DAMN! I just Googled that... crazy dude, crazy............

Jojen paste is not confirmed! I refuse to believe the little grandfather was cannibalized by Bran. I'll kick and scream until I read it in the pages, or HBO jumps the gun and shows me on screen...

 

[IrishLax]

Let me also say that I love that a teaser/reveal was put in the show that touches on theories floating around. I think it's great to keep it fresh and get discussion while we wait for the next book. Would be better if HBO didn't accidentally leak that it was in fact the Night's King so people still had some gaps to fill... but some info is better than no info.

Random segue... can we talk about the geography of the known world? Looking at the HBO still frame...

... coupled with other facts from the books, it has always been suggested that the world functions like a typical "globe" in the sense that it at minimum wraps East-West... i.e. if you keep going east for long enough you'd end back up in the same spot.

What's interesting to think about is if it wraps north-south or not. In our typical world, both poles are "cold" with the equator being hot but you can throw that logic out the window because we knows seasons and the like don't function in an earthly manner. We do know that the further south we go the warmer it gets, so what if the south "pole" is hot with the northern "pole" being cold and that's directly related to the domains of R'hllor and the Other.

So consider that the Northwestern corner of a typical map is where the Lands of Always Winter start (and who knows how far they go) and the Southeastern most corner of the official map is where it's hot/blood magic is prevalent/the Faith of R'hllor originates (or at least runs shit)/dragons are said to come from/has a region called the "Shadowlands" nearby/has all kinds of allusions to reanimated or otherwise hexed people. Just how traditional "poles" act in opposite magnetic charge, maybe these regions function similar.

Which then begs the question... what do people make of the Old Gods (i.e. gods of earth/nature), the Children of the Forest, Bloodraven, etc.? Is this the one group that is staving off destruction from two opposite but equally destructive forces of unending death? Or put another way... if it's a song of ice and fire, where does earth fit in?

 

[gkIrish]

Let me also say that I love that a teaser/reveal was put in the show that touches on theories floating around. I think it's great to keep it fresh and get discussion while we wait for the next book. Would be better if HBO didn't accidentally leak that it was in fact the Night's King so people still had some gaps to fill... but some info is better than no info.

Random segue... can we talk about the geography of the known world? Looking at the HBO still frame...

... coupled with other facts from the books, it has always been suggested that the world functions like a typical "globe" in the sense that it at minimum wraps East-West... i.e. if you keep going east for long enough you'd end back up in the same spot.

What's interesting to think about is if it wraps north-south or not. In our typical world, both poles are "cold" with the equator being hot but you can throw that logic out the window because we knows seasons and the like don't function in an earthly manner. We do know that the further south we go the warmer it gets, so what if the south "pole" is hot with the northern "pole" being cold and that's directly related to the domains of R'hllor and the Other.

So consider that the Northwestern corner of a typical map is where the Lands of Always Winter start (and who knows how far they go) and the Southeastern most corner of the official map is where it's hot/blood magic is prevalent/the Faith of R'hllor originates (or at least runs shit)/dragons are said to come from/has a region called the "Shadowlands" nearby/has all kinds of allusions to reanimated or otherwise hexed people. Just how traditional "poles" act in opposite magnetic charge, maybe these regions function similar.

Which then begs the question... what do people make of the Old Gods (i.e. gods of earth/nature), the Children of the Forest, Bloodraven, etc.? Is this the one group that is staving off destruction from two opposite but equally destructive forces of unending death? Or put another way... if it's a song of ice and fire, where does earth fit in?

 

[wizards8507]

Let me also say that I love that a teaser/reveal was put in the show that touches on theories floating around. I think it's great to keep it fresh and get discussion while we wait for the next book. Would be better if HBO didn't accidentally leak that it was in fact the Night's King so people still had some gaps to fill... but some info is better than no info.

Random segue... can we talk about the geography of the known world? Looking at the HBO still frame...

... coupled with other facts from the books, it has always been suggested that the world functions like a typical "globe" in the sense that it at minimum wraps East-West... i.e. if you keep going east for long enough you'd end back up in the same spot.

What's interesting to think about is if it wraps north-south or not. In our typical world, both poles are "cold" with the equator being hot but you can throw that logic out the window because we knows seasons and the like don't function in an earthly manner. We do know that the further south we go the warmer it gets, so what if the south "pole" is hot with the northern "pole" being cold and that's directly related to the domains of R'hllor and the Other.

So consider that the Northwestern corner of a typical map is where the Lands of Always Winter start (and who knows how far they go) and the Southeastern most corner of the official map is where it's hot/blood magic is prevalent/the Faith of R'hllor originates (or at least runs shit)/dragons are said to come from/has a region called the "Shadowlands" nearby/has all kinds of allusions to reanimated or otherwise hexed people. Just how traditional "poles" act in opposite magnetic charge, maybe these regions function similar.

Which then begs the question... what do people make of the Old Gods (i.e. gods of earth/nature), the Children of the Forest, Bloodraven, etc.? Is this the one group that is staving off destruction from two opposite but equally destructive forces of unending death? Or put another way... if it's a song of ice and fire, where does earth fit in?

Hm... I like it, but the one thing that doesn't sit right to me is that the Old Gods seem to be "headquartered" beyond the Wall. If the Old Gods were some kind of middle ground between Ice and Fire, I don't think Bloodraven and the CotF would be hunkering down so close to "ice."

 

[IrishLax]

Some more on Night's King:
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[IrishLax]

Hm... I like it, but the one thing that doesn't sit right to me is that the Old Gods seem to be "headquartered" beyond the Wall. If the Old Gods were some kind of middle ground between Ice and Fire, I don't think Bloodraven and the CotF would be hunkering down so close to "ice."

Yeah, that's definitely an issue. Although before the First Men they actually resided more centrally (in places like High Heart and the Isle of Faces and the like) and then got pushed progressively further north.

Another weird thing... are there "children" in the northern parts of Essos where forests remain? There are strong allusions to it, as the Dothraki have a word for "wood walkers" who dwelled in forests and carved trees in that region, but they supposedly disappeared. Remember, Essos and Westeros were connected before the Children smashed the Arm of Dorne.

They then sort of crushed the neck, and there is also some evidence that they might have caused the doom of Valyria.

I dunno... it's just interesting to me how Leaf talks about singing the song of earth for thousands upon thousands of years before even the Age of Heroes, while the series is called A Song of Ice and Fire. So... do the Others sing the song of ice while R'hllor sings the song of fire... and in the middle you have a bunch of little guys singing the song of earth and trying to keep shit together?

I honestly don't have much of a clue, but I'm interested to see how they fit in as the proverbial third wheel.

 

[wizards8507]

Yeah, that's definitely an issue. Although before the First Men they actually resided more centrally (in places like High Heart and the Isle of Faces and the like) and then got pushed progressively further north.

Another weird thing... are there "children" in the northern parts of Essos where forests remain? There are strong allusions to it, as the Dothraki have a word for "wood walkers" who dwelled in forests and carved trees in that region, but they supposedly disappeared. Remember, Essos and Westeros were connected before the Children smashed the Arm of Dorne.

They then sort of crushed the neck, and there is also some evidence that they might have caused the doom of Valyria.

I dunno... it's just interesting to me how Leaf talks about singing the song of earth for thousands upon thousands of years before even the Age of Heroes, while the series is called A Song of Ice and Fire. So... do the Others sing the song of ice while R'hllor sings the song of fire... and in the middle you have a bunch of little guys singing the song of earth and trying to keep shit together?

I honestly don't have much of a clue, but I'm interested to see how they fit in as the proverbial third wheel.

I thought the FM caused the Doom.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I thought the FM caused the Doom.

Speculative, but possible. They also worship the Many-Faced God, which may be the Great Other.

Hm... I like it, but the one thing that doesn't sit right to me is that the Old Gods seem to be "headquartered" beyond the Wall. If the Old Gods were some kind of middle ground between Ice and Fire, I don't think Bloodraven and the CotF would be hunkering down so close to "ice."

I don't see much basis for separating the Old Gods from the Great Other, to be honest. The more we learn, it seems like the Others, the CotF, Bloodraven, etc. are all part of the same faction.

 

[wizards8507]

Speculative, but possible. They also worship the Faceless God, which may be the Great Other.

"Many-Faced God," but I'll let it slide.

I don't see much basis for separating the Old Gods from the Great Other, to be honest. The more we learn, it seems like the Others, the CotF, Bloodraven, etc. are all part of the same faction.

Another "yeah, but..."

The CotF supplied the Night's Watch with dragonglass to fight the Others.

 

[IrishLax]

I thought the FM caused the Doom.

Or did they?

We know that it was a giant seismic event, and that the earthquake caused the volcanoes to erupt. And we know that there was a massive tidal wave.

Consider that we know the Children have done that type of magic before, and that there (presumably) a whole "kingdom" of "wood walkers" in Essos that up and disappeared... and then consider that the Children (presumably) rely on sacrifice for powerful magic per Bran's visions.

If you buy that the Valyrians were destroying the earth, dragons were a huge threat to the equilibrium of everything, etc. it would follow that the Children would try to destroy them with their earth magic much like how they tried to stop humans previously they considered a threat to the earth/life.

The Faceless Men also claim to have had a hand and they sure had the motive. Were they working together? Was it all the Faceless Men? Per usual, I have no clue haha

 

[ND NYC]

Speculative, but possible. They also worship the Faceless God, which may be the Great Other.



I don't see much basis for separating the Old Gods from the Great Other, to be honest. The more we learn, it seems like the Others, the CotF, Bloodraven, etc. are all part of the same faction.

i dont know about being of the same "faction" per se...keeping checks and balances on each other, yes. im with you there, but i dont think they are/were "allied" (yet?) if thats what you meant.

 

[IrishLax]

I don't see much basis for separating the Old Gods from the Great Other, to be honest. The more we learn, it seems like the Others, the CotF, Bloodraven, etc. are all part of the same faction.

But there is direct evidence to refute that they're all on the same team:
1. Wights and forces of the Others being warded away from the cave where they hang out.
2. The CotF helping defeat the Others the first time around.
3. The CotF giving humans obsidian to use against White Walker.
4. Those that worship Old Gods being distinct from those that had allegiance to the Other per certain accounts of early northern history.

 

[ND NYC]

rambling thought:

what ever happened to Theon Greyjoys ancestral crew? the ocean dudes. the sailors. the Greyjoys.
Lots of chapters in the books devoted to them especially after Balon dies, and basicaly nothing in the show and nothing in the books on them since the one crew sailed to find danerys...and the other to valyria (i think...or was it to bravos?). do you guys think we have seen or read the last of them?
if not, what type of part will they play? the one guy hoooks up with Dany? (and she "uses" him..not for love, but for his boats, to sail he slave army north/westeros at some point?)

 

[ND NYC]

Some more on Night's King:
<object width="560" height="315"><param name="movie" value="//www.youtube.com/v/0KHzcsLjgog?version=3&hl=en_US&rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="//www.youtube.com/v/0KHzcsLjgog?version=3&hl=en_US&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="560" height="315" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>

is the narration (words) in that video taken directly form the books? which book?

 

[wizards8507]

is the narration (words) in that video taken directly form the books? which book?

I believe that's from the "Special Features" of the bluray for season 2. Sounds like it's read by Rose Leslie.

 

[IrishLax]

is the narration (words) in that video taken directly form the books? which book?

I think, and I could be wrong, that it was a bonus feature with some Game of Thrones Blurays (so it's "cannon" to HBO?).

 

[IrishLax]

I believe that's from the "Special Features" of the bluray for season 2.

This. Thanks.

 

[ND NYC]

so not from the books then, right?

still interesting that was prior to season 2 though and would guess GRRM was more heavily onvolved with hbo at that point than he would be now.

the "irishlion link" i think has called this whole thing right.

what say you guys? I have tried but can't seem to poke holes in the theory, especiallly since GRRM said he is not introducing any new characters.

is their a single site somewhere that only shows "Nans tales?" want to read them all in one sitting in light of that new theory....

 

[IrishLion]

I need to read AFfC and ADwD again, but can you guys (Lax and Wizards) fill me in on the idea of the Faceless Men potentially having a hand in the Doom? I slightly recall this, but can't piece it all the way together. And oh boy does the Doom fascinate me.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I need to read AFfC and ADwD again, but can you guys (Lax and Wizards) fill me in on the idea of the Faceless Men potentially having a hand in the Doom? I slightly recall this, but can't piece it all the way together. And oh boy does the Doom fascinate me.

AFfC, Chapter 22, Arya:

Kindly Old Man to Arya: "The tale of our beginnings. If you would be one of us, you had best know who we are and how we came to be. Men may whisper of the Faceless Men of Braavos, but we are older than the Secret City. Before the Titan rose, before the Unmasking of Uthero, before the Founding, we were. We have flowered in Braavos amongst these northern fogs, but we first took root in Valyria, amongst the wretched slaves who toiled in the deep mines beneath the Fourteen Flames that lit the Freehold’s nights of old. Most mines are dank and chilly places, cut from cold dead stone, but the Fourteen Flames were living mountains with veins of molten rock and hearts of fire. So the mines of old Valyria were always hot, and they grew hotter as the shafts were driven deeper, ever deeper. The slaves toiled in an oven. The rocks around them were too hot to touch. The air stank of brimstone and would sear their lungs as they breathed it. The soles of their feet would burn and blister, even through the thickest sandals. Sometimes, when they broke through a wall in search of gold, they would find steam instead, or boiling water, or molten rock. Certain shafts were cut so low that the slaves could not stand upright, but had to crawl or bend. And there were wyrms in that red darkness too. ... Firewyrms. Some say they are akin to dragons, for wyrms breathe fire too. Instead of soaring through the sky, they bore through stone and soil. If the old tales can be believed, there were wyrms amongst the Fourteen Flames even before the dragons came. The young ones are no larger than that skinny arm of yours, but they can grow to monstrous size and have no love for men."

"Did they kill the slaves?"

"Burnt and blackened corpses were oft found in shafts where the rocks were cracked or full of holes. Yet still the mines drove deeper. Slaves perished by the score, but their masters did not care. Red gold and yellow gold and silver were reckoned to be more precious than the lives of slaves, for slaves were cheap in the old Freehold. During war, the Valyrians took them by the thousands. In times of peace they bred them, though only the worst were sent down to die in the red darkness."

"Didn’t the slaves rise up and fight?"

"Some did," he said. "Revolts were common in the mines, but few accomplished much. The dragonlords of the old Freehold were strong in sorcery, and lesser men defied them at their peril. The first Faceless Man was one who did."

"Who was he?" Arya blurted, before she stopped to think.

"No one," he answered. "Some say he was a slave himself. Others insist he was a freeholder’s son, born of noble stock. Some will even tell you he was an overseer who took pity on his charges. The truth is, no one knows. Whoever he was, he moved amongst the slaves and would hear them at their prayers. Men of a hundred different nations labored in the mines, and each prayed to his own god in his own tongue, yet all were praying for the same thing. It was release they asked for, an end to pain. A small thing, and simple. Yet their gods made no answer, and their suffering went on. Are their gods all deaf? he wondered . . . until a realization came upon him, one night in the red darkness.
"All gods have their instruments, men and women who serve them and help to work their will on earth. The slaves were not crying out to a hundred different gods, as it seemed, but to one god with a hundred different faces . . . and he was that god’s instrument. That very night he chose the most wretched of the slaves, the one who had prayed most earnestly for release, and freed him from his bondage. The first gift had been given."

Arya drew back from him. "He killed the slave?" That did not sound right. "He should have killed the masters!"

"He would bring the gift to them as well . . . but that is a tale for another day, one best shared with no one."

 

[IrishLion]

That's a pretty thin strand of evidence thus far, but it certainly follows the ominous, secret tone surrounding the Doom, though I'm not sure if ASOIAF will ever fully answer it. I do know that Martin is soon releasing a history of the lands though, so perhaps some info may be included there.

 

[IrishLax]

Soooo... super simplistic theory time.

What if the Night's King, after being defeated, simply retreated to rebuild his strength and has been waiting all this time just to avenge his "queen" that was killed? So the whole plot is just simple revenge on mankind in Westeros... and he was just biding his time until everything was at its weakest. Seems like the Occam's Razor version of what's going on, with no need for any higher meaning.

 

[gkIrish]

Soooo... super simplistic theory time.

What if the Night's King, after being defeated, simply retreated to rebuild his strength and has been waiting all this time just to avenge his "queen" that was killed? So the whole plot is just simple revenge on mankind in Westeros... and he was just biding his time until everything was at its weakest. Seems like the Occam's Razor version of what's going on, with no need for any higher meaning.

I could see it...

Between the wildlings coming south, everyone killing each other for the Iron Throne, and the eventual battle with Khaleesi's dragons, there's no better time...

 

[wizards8507]

Watching the episode now... holy hell is Margaery hot. 10/10 definitely would.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S III using Tapatalk 4

 

[gkIrish]

Watching the episode now... holy hell is Margaery hot. 10/10 definitely would.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S III using Tapatalk 4

Have you ever seen the Tudors? She is even hotter in that and I'm 99% sure we see her jugs multiple times.